Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

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Century Express

melodies of life
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I agree with Hippowdon moving down to A. Yes, he is a amazing stop vs Zard X, Bisharp, some VS users, but whenever he's used on Balanced / Bulky-inclined squads he auto-loses momentum so much vs Keldeo / Rotom-W or Manaphy, or variours Spikes users, like Skarmory, (Magnet Rise) Klefki (but Toxic variants are worse), and Ferrothorn. I'm not saying that he is passive, but usually whenever he tries to check vs a specific attacker like Zard X, Bisharp, Torn-T, Mega Meta, he'll be looping Slack Off almost every time on the next turn, which is actually really easy to exploit regardless of the playstyle. I'm not saying that he isn't too good (it's the opposite actually), but he is kinda unidimensional to matchup REALLY WELL Offensive squads based on stuff like Mega Manectric, or fuck the tempo of the team whenever he 1v1s a Rotom or Keldeo. Still a amazing mon to slap to cover a reliable VS immunity, which doesn't fear HP Ice, unlike Chomper and Gliscor, and access to immediate recovery is always nice.

On a lower note i think Ferrothorn should be A+ > A, everything on the meta actually designs itself to lure it o_o, making it fail to check even threats like Kyu-B, Mega Metagross, Azumarill, Manaphy, Diancie (if it doesn't run HP Fire, it usually pairs itself with Zone, which is really bad for Ferro) many times. The drop of Clefable using Fire Blast > Thunder Wave helps him a lot, though.

Empo dropping to B- sounds fine, was a bit niche bc of Greninja, and he isn't so convenient at the same point of Mega Chomper or Tangrowth IMO. I actually like Serp and Raikou both on A-, but i'm lazy to explain it, but i don't feel they pose the offensive pressure + utility at the same level of some A Rank mons like Kyu-B and Gengar.
 
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Martin

日本語学生
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Finishing the Mega-Zam issue, his priority weakness is the reason he's not on S rank, if he had a Sp. Att. move similar to Extreme Speed it will become S rank or it'll rush to Ubers.



Nominating Honchkrow from D to C-

Honchkrow @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 76 Atk / 180 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Dark Pulse
- Heat Wave/Superpower

This mixed set allows Honchkrow to hit most common Flying checks with Dark Pulse meanwhile it's still a decent Brave Bird spammer. Moxie+Sucker Punch combination is always terrifying and can work as win-condition. Heat Wave sets down Ferro, Skarmory, and M-Scizor if it switchs in, meanwhile Superpower OHKOs T-Tar and deals massive damage to Heatran. Ground and Psychic inmunnity can help survivability, although 100/52/52 defenses is quite bad. It's also weak to recoil dmg but still is a very underrated mon who deserves a higher rank.

Calcs:

180+ SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 175-207 (41.6 - 49.2%) Avoiding Rocky helmet dmg
180+ SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 173-204 (41.1 - 48.5%)
180+ SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 181-214 (47.3 - 56%) -- 24.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers
180+ SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 181-214 (47.3 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers
180+ SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 204-242 (61 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
180+ SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Skarmory: 229-270 (68.5 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
180+ SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 354-421 (89.8 - 106.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (OHKO after SR)

Btw this set is not mine, just in case.
If ur trying to beat Chomp and Lando why not just use Icy Wind? Its a big niche of Honch that it is capable of OHKOing big threats to birdspam in Skarmory and Chomp/Lando, the latter two of which get bopped by Icy Wind with minimal investment.
 

TPP

Wishing
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Honchkrow is pretty cool ngl. Here's a replay of it saving my ass, and ended up sweeping my opponent (yes I know it's low ladder, but still tho): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-270082350

-> C-

It's got a really good movepool including Sucker Punch, Brave Bird, Pursuit, Heat Wave, Superpower, Icy Wind, and having Moxie is really nice. It's really nice to have a good Sucker Punch user that isn't Bisharp, since usual checks like Keldeo can't switch in to take a Brave Bird. Naturally, the worst parts about it are the defenses and the recoil, but other than that, it's nice to use for its offensive prowess. Having good Attack and a good/decent Special Attack is really cool, since it's able to go mixed. He's definitely one of the better D rank mons that could/should move up. It's slow, but it's a really nice heavy hitter to have, and being able to raise attack with moxie upon getting kills with Sucker Punch is just way too much fun.

Also, I'm gonna bring up this Mega Beedrill drop I made way back when:

I wanna nominate Mega Beedrill to drop from B to B-

This thing looks OP offensively on paper with a ton of attack and a ton of speed. However, it literally can't do anything to fat ground types, and with Tank Garchomp, Hippowdon and Lando-T on most teams, this thing can't apply much pressure at all. There's also the fact it literally can't take any form of priority outside of Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave well at all, and offense (which is growing more popular) has plenty of priority (Fake out from Mega Lopunny and Mega Medicham, Quick Attack from Diggersby and Mega Pinsir, E-Speed from Dragonite, Talonflame, Aqua Jet from Azu and Crawdaunt, Bullet Punch from Scizor, and Mega Medicham, Ice Shard from Weavile, and Sucker Punch from Bisharp). It's got a nice role in being a poison type that can 1HKO fairies easily, but aside from that, it's fairly easy to handle it. It's also got a pretty useful quick U-turn, but it's not too helpful when it can lose 29% to Tank Chomp, and then 25% from Stealth Rock. Mega Scizor and regular Scizor on the other hand, can do anything Mega Beedrill does, but slower. They can kill fairies, provide a good strong U-turn, and the biggest pros they have over Mega Beedrill, are the defensive stats + typing, as well as the access to Roost. There's also the fact Mega Beedrill can get forced out pretty easily after it gets a kill (you can usually send in something with priority or a scarfed mon with more than base 80 speed), meaning it'll lose another quarter of its health from trying to come back in. Besides Garchomp, Hippo and Lando-T, there's other mons that can check Mega Beedrill, most notably steel types including Mega Scizor, Skarmory and Magnet Rise Klefki (if Beedrill has Drill Run). Mega Beedrill becomes setup fodder for Mega Scizor, or it can give Garchomp, Hippo, Lando-T, Skarmory and Klefki a free turn to set up Stealth Rock and Spikes respectively. Overall, it's just getting harder to use, and requires much more team support than the other mons in the B Rank.

to B-
 

EraiMHFU

formerly Erai14
Honchkrow is pretty cool ngl. Here's a replay of it saving my ass, and ended up sweeping my opponent (yes I know it's low ladder, but still tho): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-270082350

-> C-

It's got a really good movepool including Sucker Punch, Brave Bird, Pursuit, Heat Wave, Superpower, Icy Wind, and having Moxie is really nice. It's really nice to have a good Sucker Punch user that isn't Bisharp, since usual checks like Keldeo can't switch in to take a Brave Bird. Naturally, the worst parts about it are the defenses and the recoil, but other than that, it's nice to use for its offensive prowess. Having good Attack and a good/decent Special Attack is really cool, since it's able to go mixed. He's definitely one of the better D rank mons that could/should move up. It's slow, but it's a really nice heavy hitter to have, and being able to raise attack with moxie upon getting kills with Sucker Punch is just way too much fun.

Also, I'm gonna bring up this Mega Beedrill drop I made way back when:

I wanna nominate Mega Beedrill to drop from B to B-

This thing looks OP offensively on paper with a ton of attack and a ton of speed. However, it literally can't do anything to fat ground types, and with Tank Garchomp, Hippowdon and Lando-T on most teams, this thing can't apply much pressure at all. There's also the fact it literally can't take any form of priority outside of Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave well at all, and offense (which is growing more popular) has plenty of priority (Fake out from Mega Lopunny and Mega Medicham, Quick Attack from Diggersby and Mega Pinsir, E-Speed from Dragonite, Talonflame, Aqua Jet from Azu and Crawdaunt, Bullet Punch from Scizor, and Mega Medicham, Ice Shard from Weavile, and Sucker Punch from Bisharp). It's got a nice role in being a poison type that can 1HKO fairies easily, but aside from that, it's fairly easy to handle it. It's also got a pretty useful quick U-turn, but it's not too helpful when it can lose 29% to Tank Chomp, and then 25% from Stealth Rock. Mega Scizor and regular Scizor on the other hand, can do anything Mega Beedrill does, but slower. They can kill fairies, provide a good strong U-turn, and the biggest pros they have over Mega Beedrill, are the defensive stats + typing, as well as the access to Roost. There's also the fact Mega Beedrill can get forced out pretty easily after it gets a kill (you can usually send in something with priority or a scarfed mon with more than base 80 speed), meaning it'll lose another quarter of its health from trying to come back in. Besides Garchomp, Hippo and Lando-T, there's other mons that can check Mega Beedrill, most notably steel types including Mega Scizor, Skarmory and Magnet Rise Klefki (if Beedrill has Drill Run). Mega Beedrill becomes setup fodder for Mega Scizor, or it can give Garchomp, Hippo, Lando-T, Skarmory and Klefki a free turn to set up Stealth Rock and Spikes respectively. Overall, it's just getting harder to use, and requires much more team support than the other mons in the B Rank.

to B-
Lmao, Typholsion, Galvantula,Curse Umbreon, normal Blastoise, so many bad mons.

I agree with Mega-Beedrill B -> B- , it needs extensive support to work well and dont really have a good move to make use of Adaptability outside of U-Turn (why not Gunk Shot or Mega Horn Gamefreak??) and is bad for a pivot a weakness to Stealth Rock, because it will be switching a lot of times. So I support Beedrill B to B-

Wanted to apologize to bludz if that deleted post was offensive, just got annoyed of reading too much pointless stuff.
 
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Punchshroom

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Extremely foolish post and its quite clear you did not connect the very obvious dots.

The argument wasnt about priority, its about how Priority effects MegaZam and how it almost completely nullifies it. Ive checked myself plenty of times, yes i AM extremely sexy.
Vertex was referring to your poor attitude as a poster, what with your stubborness, pointless one-liner posts, immediate dismissal (or outright ignoring) of any arguments that do not suit your "fancy", plus I see you managed to add arrogance to the list with your post here. Not to mention that your literal first post on this forum is an attack on the ranking staff, saying that they gave MegaZam its high ranking purely for its stats and that they don't know better.

This is not in any way meant to be a personal attack on you rather as a warning from another fellow user (as I won't stoop to alienating new users): tone down on the sass / disrespect / other such unsavory behaviour or you'll find yourself on the blacklist sooner than you'd think.

----------------------------------------------------------

Not going to comment on where I think Honchkrow should be ranked atm, but I will offer some of my experiences with it. Honchkrow has the tools to circumvent or at least weaken most FlySpam switch-ins in the tier, such as Heat Wave for Klefki and SpD Skarm, Icy Wind for TankChomp and Landorus-T, and Dark Pulse for Rotom-W and even Mega Manectric to an extent (while being sufficient against physically defensive Skarm. However, then comes the 4MSS. Brave Bird and Sucker Punch are mandatory on Honchkrow, so it has limited room for coverage moves against FlySpam stops, and this is assuming Honch doesn't carry Superpower to deal with its own problem Pokemon in Heatran and Tyranitar.

Overall, while Honchkrow has been fun to use, it just feels like an inferior Bisharp most of the time, which is more self sufficient thanks to Swords Dance and still does a fine job at softening up what Honchkrow is supposed to. Honchkrow's poor survivability doesn't help matters either.
 
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Celticpride

Got no anger, got no malice
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Also, I'm gonna bring up this Mega Beedrill drop I made way back when:

I wanna nominate Mega Beedrill to drop from B to B-

This thing looks OP offensively on paper with a ton of attack and a ton of speed. However, it literally can't do anything to fat ground types, and with Tank Garchomp, Hippowdon and Lando-T on most teams, this thing can't apply much pressure at all. There's also the fact it literally can't take any form of priority outside of Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave well at all, and offense (which is growing more popular) has plenty of priority (Fake out from Mega Lopunny and Mega Medicham, Quick Attack from Diggersby and Mega Pinsir, E-Speed from Dragonite, Talonflame, Aqua Jet from Azu and Crawdaunt, Bullet Punch from Scizor, and Mega Medicham, Ice Shard from Weavile, and Sucker Punch from Bisharp). It's got a nice role in being a poison type that can 1HKO fairies easily, but aside from that, it's fairly easy to handle it. It's also got a pretty useful quick U-turn, but it's not too helpful when it can lose 29% to Tank Chomp, and then 25% from Stealth Rock. Mega Scizor and regular Scizor on the other hand, can do anything Mega Beedrill does, but slower. They can kill fairies, provide a good strong U-turn, and the biggest pros they have over Mega Beedrill, are the defensive stats + typing, as well as the access to Roost. There's also the fact Mega Beedrill can get forced out pretty easily after it gets a kill (you can usually send in something with priority or a scarfed mon with more than base 80 speed), meaning it'll lose another quarter of its health from trying to come back in. Besides Garchomp, Hippo and Lando-T, there's other mons that can check Mega Beedrill, most notably steel types including Mega Scizor, Skarmory and Magnet Rise Klefki (if Beedrill has Drill Run). Mega Beedrill becomes setup fodder for Mega Scizor, or it can give Garchomp, Hippo, Lando-T, Skarmory and Klefki a free turn to set up Stealth Rock and Spikes respectively. Overall, it's just getting harder to use, and requires much more team support than the other mons in the B Rank.

to B-
I am not a fan of a Mega Beedrill drop tbqh. Beedrill may not tear apart whole teams be itself, but it's insane at gaining momentum. You mention a fat Ground like Hippowdon or Lando as a check, but with the way Mega Beedrill offenses are built, you can often just click U-Turn and go to attackers like Keldeo and Weavile to make force out those checks and gain momentum. TankChomp is a problem granted, however pulling a double switch to a predictable TankChomp switch is often just as effective as U-Turning. Unlike a Volt Switcher like Manectric or Raikou, Beedrill's U-Turn is guaranteed to gain momentum. Also several priority attacks fall short of OHKOing such as Lopunny's Fake Out, CB Azu's Aqua Jet, and LO Diggersby's Quick Attack. That's pushing aside that a decent Beedrill team with not give those opportunities for free priority attacks on Beedrill because most of the time you are just clicking U-Turn when those mons attempt to switch in. In addition, attacking Beedrill with some priority such as Bisharp's Sucker Punch or Scizor's Bullet Punch gives a free opportunity for something like Keldeo to switch in, because frankly priority is generally pretty weak when attacking even "frail" offensive mons. With regards to forcing Bedrill out after it gets a kill... um it got a kill and can just switch out? If your plan to defeat Bedrill is sack and revenge generally those strategies don't bode well for you long term. Most Steels checking Beedrill is a moot point as Beedrill is commonly paired with Mag, and Beedrill even can support Mag by running Knock Off to get rid of Shed Shells.

I think that when looking at Beedrill people need to look at it less from the angle of "it has a ton of checks" which it admittedly does, but more from the angle of the momentum that Beedrill gives to squads that build around it correctly, and how teammates can take advantage of said momentum.

Edit: As far as Beedrill vs Scizor, Scizor is ranked higher for its bulk and defensive typing. However, there are a few costs to using offensive SD Scizor as a U-Turner, namely it misses critical OHKOs by not using the more powerful Bug Bite, and not being able to continue sweeps in a situation where it must U-Turn (for example, kills a Slowbro but then it has to get to +2 again to beat say HP Fire Latios). Bedrill also has the luxury of being able to beat Char-Y, Keldeo, Talonflame, Thundurus, and a bunch of other Scizor checks in late game states due to Adaptability PJab. I could post some calcs supporting this is need be. I think saying that Scizor can do anything Beedrill can do but better is hyperbole.
 
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EraiMHFU

formerly Erai14
I am not a fan of a Mega Beedrill drop tbqh. Beedrill may not tear apart whole teams be itself, but it's insane at gaining momentum. You mention a fat Ground like Hippowdon or Lando as a check, but with the way Mega Beedrill offenses are built, you can often just click U-Turn and go to attackers like Keldeo and Weavile to make force out those checks and gain momentum. TankChomp is a problem granted, however pulling a double switch to a predictable TankChomp switch is often just as effective as U-Turning. Unlike a Volt Switcher like Manectric or Raikou, Beedrill's U-Turn is guaranteed to gain momentum. Also several priority attacks fall short of OHKOing such as Lopunny's Fake Out, CB Azu's Aqua Jet, and LO Diggersby's Quick Attack. That's pushing aside that a decent Beedrill team with not give those opportunities for free priority attacks on Beedrill because most of the time you are just clicking U-Turn when those mons attempt to switch in. In addition, attacking Beedrill with some priority such as Bisharp's Sucker Punch or Scizor's Bullet Punch gives a free opportunity for something like Keldeo to switch in, because frankly priority is generally pretty weak when attacking even "frail" offensive mons. With regards to forcing Bedrill out after it gets a kill... um it got a kill and can just switch out? If your plan to defeat Bedrill is sack and revenge generally those strategies don't bode well for you long term. Most Steels checking Beedrill is a moot point as Beedrill is commonly paired with Mag, and Beedrill even can support Mag by running Knock Off to get rid of Shed Shells.

I think that when looking at Beedrill people need to look at it less from the angle of "it has a ton of checks" which it admittedly does, but more from the angle of the momentum that Beedrill gives to squads that build around it correctly, and how teammates can take advantage of said momentum.

Edit: As far as Beedrill vs Scizor, Scizor is ranked higher for its bulk and defensive typing. However, there are a few costs to using offensive SD Scizor as a U-Turner, namely it misses critical OHKOs by not using the more powerful Bug Bite, and not being able to continue sweeps in a situation where it must U-Turn (for example, kills a Slowbro but then it has to get to +2 again to beat say HP Fire Latios). Bedrill also has the luxury of being able to beat Char-Y, Keldeo, Talonflame, Thundurus, and a bunch of other Scizor checks in late game states due to Adaptability PJab. I could post some calcs supporting this is need be. I think saying that Scizor can do anything Beedrill can do but better is hyperbole.
I've tried Beedrill a bunch of times and i must say i had decent succes, however because is supposed to pivot, the SR weakness doesnt really help, and the only move that really makes use of Adaptability is U-Turn, because if Pjab fails to OHKO Beedrill will get KOed in return, i think it would be even A- worthy if it had Gunk Shot.

Im not really sure if it should drop or stay, but i feel it will end by droping if it doesnt get a good STAB to abuse of Adaptability.
 
I've been using this Mega Glalie set recently and it's actually turning out to be a pretty legit nuke.

Mega Glalie @ Glalitite
Ability: Refrigerate
- Double Edge
- Ice Shard / Freeze Dry
- Earthquake
- Explosion
Nature: Adamant / Naughty
EVs: 252 Atk / 84 Def / 172 Spe with Ice Shard or 252 Atk / 84 SpA / 172 Spe with Naughty Freeze Dry

Double Edge recoil and Stealth Rock weakness sucks when using Mega Glalie, but let's be honest, Mega Glalie is never going to live very long in a battle anyways no matter what set you use. That's why I use a positive Atk nature Double Edge to maximize its nuking power before it goes boom. It's plenty fast enough to serve as a nuke and wallbreaker even without max speed too, and it has STAB priority. The given EV spread is fast enough to outspeed max speed Timid Heatran and KO with EQ. Adamant Double Edge also picks up some kills that max speed Return cannot, which I would say is ideal for a Pokemon which is used purely as a nuke.

vs. Azumarill
252+ Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Double-Edge vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 159-187 (41.4 - 48.6%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

vs. Keldeo
252+ Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 144-169 (44.5 - 52.3%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Keldeo can only switch in once and if it tries to switch in again and it luckily lives then it still just dies Ice Shard.

vs. Ferrothorn
252+ Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 178-210 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

vs. Skarmory
252+ Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 151-178 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

vs. Rotom-W
252+ Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 90-107 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- 24.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

combined with
252+ Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Explosion vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 189-222 (62.3 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I personally prefer Ice Shard over Freeze Dry because without Ice Shard Mega Glalie has major Hoopa-U Syndrome and it helps A LOT vs offense. But if your team needs help dealing with Slowbro or you just want to prevent yourself from being countered by Slowbro and also be able to kill Rotom-W without going boom, Freeze Dry is quite good.

vs. Slowbro
84 SpA Mega Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 222-264 (56.3 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

vs. Rotom-W
Mega Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Rotom-W: 180-212 (59.4 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I'm not sure what it should be ranked, but I definitely think that it should at least be D-rank because it's just such a powerhouse and can break down so many Pokemon to allow a sweeper on your team to clean up the match.
 
I've tried Beedrill a bunch of times and i must say i had decent succes, however because is supposed to pivot, the SR weakness doesnt really help, and the only move that really makes use of Adaptability is U-Turn, because if Pjab fails to OHKO Beedrill will get KOed in return, i think it would be even A- worthy if it had Gunk Shot.

Im not really sure if it should drop or stay, but i feel it will end by droping if it doesnt get a good STAB to abuse of Adaptability.
Well one thing to consider is that Beedrill is a scout not a pivot and is a reasonable revenge killer. The reason the distinction between scout and pivot is so important in this situation is that a pivot that's weak to rocks is a terrible pivot as it can't reliably switch in on anything. Beedrill's job is to come in and kill something and get out or whittle down the opponent with u-turn. Using Beedrill in this way still gives you 4 switches in which is generally more than enough for the types of teams you will commonly see Beedrill on (HO and volt turn offense).

While the rock weakness certainly should be taken into consideration, I think we all know this about Beedrill and it isn't crippling enough to bring it down to B-.

As for the whole Honchkrow argument, I think it's an interesting wallbreaker. It can often be tailor-made to a given team's needs with all of the coverage options it posses. Special lure sets are yet another way that it's versatile movepool can be abused to take on common checks to birdspam in particular. I'd be up for a move to C-.
 

EraiMHFU

formerly Erai14
Well one thing to consider is that Beedrill is a scout not a pivot and is a reasonable revenge killer. The reason the distinction between scout and pivot is so important in this situation is that a pivot that's weak to rocks is a terrible pivot as it can't reliably switch in on anything. Beedrill's job is to come in and kill something and get out or whittle down the opponent with u-turn. Using Beedrill in this way still gives you 4 switches in which is generally more than enough for the types of teams you will commonly see Beedrill on (HO and volt turn offense).

While the rock weakness certainly should be taken into consideration, I think we all know this about Beedrill and it isn't crippling enough to bring it down to B-.

As for the whole Honchkrow argument, I think it's an interesting wallbreaker. It can often be tailor-made to a given team's needs with all of the coverage options it posses. Special lure sets are yet another way that it's versatile movepool can be abused to take on common checks to birdspam in particular. I'd be up for a move to C-.
I think i remember it said "Offensive Pivot" at the analysis on Smogon :/

Anyway, I get your arguement and Celticpride's arguement.

I just feel it lacks of enough utility outside of the strongest U-Turn.
 
Before I get into my actual post, I want to say that I was the one who had originally brought up discussion about Empoleon to B-, and I'm really happy and surprised that made it all the way to this slate.
Anyways, my opinions about this slate:
Hippowdon A+->A
I agree with this change. Yea, it checks important things like Scizor, M-Diancie, M-Alt, and that's why it's a good mon. But being set up bait for Manaphy and Serp is just a death sentence for balance, which Hippowdon is used mostly on. And it's kind of shoehorned into a defensive role even with its decent coverage just because it doesn't hit that hard uninvested. It's very much like bulky Lando-T in a sense, both being able to switch into Volt Switch reliably and being modestly bulky. Hippo just kills momentum however, and Lando-T just does the opposite and can run a usuable offensive set.

Raikou A- -> A
I agree with this only for the CM set honestly. Once Raikou gets behind a Sub he gains traction very quickly unless you have something like Hippo or a Scarf Lando to phase or kill him, and it has swept a surprising amount of teams in my personal experience. However, it has problems getting to +1. Many things like Hoopa-U, Weavile, Excadrill, Gard, and Scarf Land are all fairly safe checks from experience and prevent Raikou from doing what it wants to do. Scarf and Specs are alright, and being a check to Torn-T is awesome, but unless I wanted to save my Mega slot, why wouldn't I use Mega-Man?

Serperior A- -> A
Holy hell this thing. What's holding this thing back from A+ is how weak it's coverage options are, but they are certainly enough to make it scary to face. I mean a 60 BP and a 90 BP move by themselves are fairly underwhelming, but when you have a 130 BP STAB move that gives you a free Nasty Plot backing it up, it makes it scary. You can run HP Rock to lure Talon and Volc, Ground for Tran, and after you kill them (Talon on the switch, though), you have the match. This makes balance hard to run and ruins stall's day, and Serp definitely deserves this raise in my opinion.

Gothitelle B -> B+
I definitely agree with this change, and not because it makes stall playable. Being a hard counter to Clefable is already excellent in itself, as that means a free sweep or Clef dies. But getting rid of one bulky mon for free is absolutely huge for sweepers like Zard-X, Serp, Manaphy, and more that I probably forgot. The amount of archetypes this mon gives benefits to seems more like A- to me, but B+ is fine for now.
Empoleon: I will quote myself from the thread:
I recall a little earlier back in this thread there was some discusion on how mediocre Defensive Starmie was in this meta with Weavile and it not forcing out much, and was absolutely baffled this mon wasn't mentioned.
Empoleon, much like the defensive Starmie mentioned, is basically a sitting duck, hoping for Scald burns. But what makes this even worse than Starmie is that it has no reliable recovery, meaning that Starmie can actually come in multiple times and stop the things it is supposed to rather than just rely on a scarce 6% recovery each turn. Hell, any time it gets Knocked Off it basically can't switch in without Wish support( not to say Starmie handles KOs better). And it getting Defog doesn't make it magically better. Scizor and Zapdos can do that much better because of Roost and not adding huge Electric, Ground, and Fighting weaknesses. It is often a detriment to any team that I attempt to make with it becuase it basically NEEDS Wish support, and the two main pokemon that supply those (Chans and Mola) stack weaknesses. Clef is a decent partner, but Empoleon fears Bisharp, Excadrill, and Weavile, all of which Clef (if Weavile runs Poison Jab) can't handle. Empoleon got hit extremely hard by the offensive shift of this meta, which is why I want it to move down a few spots.
 
I'd just like to add my two cents to Serperior to A... everyone at this point knows what it does and what it can't do, and how it's niche is both effective and unique. (but also stopped by X, Y, Z). All of that stuff that's already been discussed may already be enough to push it to A! But I want to emphasise something that's been only touched on in passing, which IMO is actually a really valuable trait Serp has.

Many if not all of Serp's supporters will mention that despite its poor coverage, the things which do check or counter it can be checked by the appropriate move - whether that's a Hidden Power, Glare, Taunt, Knock-Off, whatever. That's all fine and dandy. But the extent to which Serperior can lure specific threats is really really valuable on its own. Being an offensive Grass in a FWG core, or just a late-game sweeper, Serperior already meshes with a lot of Pokemon, and the ease with which it can neuter mutual checks (assuming an appropriate build) is really incredible, and actually reminds me a lot of the late Greninja discussion - obviously Serp is not at Greninja's level of coverage or power, but like Greninja it can tailor itself to taking out very specific threats (Tornadus, TFlame, whatever!) that would otherwise impede a team mate's sweep. SO MANY of the Serperior related posts across the OU forum lately have referenced lure sets, or just its regular coverage moves "Luring" a mon. That's not a coincidence, it's a solid trend that works to Serperior's and its team's benefit.

Add that to the usual headaches that Serperior brings to a team, specifically the liabilities some Pokemon cause once out on the field (ones which are set up on/KOd by Leaf Storm) and the pressure to keep your Pokemon at high health (and your Serp check around until lategame), and I think you've got a very solid A rank Pokemon.

I also support Hippowdon dropping, not because it's not really good or anything, it's a reliable benchmark to which we judge physical sweepers and it'll always do its job, but it's just so bloody passive. Pretty much everything it does is reactionary, outside of occasionally nabbing things (Baloon mons, Dragonite, pre-mega Char, etc) on the switch with an unexpected Stone Edge (I find myself unable to use Rock Slide for this reason). When I use Hippowdon I feel I'm relying far more on its natural bulk than I am on any specific decision I make to do things - whether I Earthquake or Slack Off or whatever, the overall advantage I've gained is often negligible outside of that gained by walling a specific threat. And bulky as it is, it can't wall everything it would like to, despite the fact that building a team with it tends to use it as a blanket check for far too much at once. IMO anyway!
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
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I'll just drop my thoughts on the current slate since someone asked me to.

Hippo A+ -> A
Yeah I think this should happen. Vertex and others summed it up pretty well; it's a very linear pokemon that is a great wall but is too passive and too much of a free switchin (by how much its forced to Slack Off) for huge threats like Manaphy, Keldeo, and so on.

Serperior A- -> A
I was the one to bring this up and I've posted my opinion on this multiple times in the old thread. While it has a few very common hard stops in Talon and Torn-T, it still poses a massive threat to most pokemon slower, and is one of the best mons in the tier at smashing Water and Ground types which are found on basically every team. Glare catches Torn-T on the switch and cripples a lot of its utility (being speed), while Taunt prevents SpDef Talons from Roosting (which is dope if you have Rocks up), and honestly Taunt obliterates a lot of fat stuff. Its coverage is good enough and the ability to boost while spamming its strongest STAB is kind of retarded lol.

Empoleon B -> B-
This is another one I brought up. I am not entirely sure why it rose to B in the first place, but I've tried it out and it is quite lackluster in this metagame. It has a great defensive typing and niche in checking threats like Talonflame and Azumarill simultaneously, but lack of reliable recovery really lets it down. On top of that, Skarmory does a better job of the role compression (Defog or SR or both). Another thing is that Empoleon often needs something like a Chople or Shuca Berry to reliably check things like Mega Gardevoir / Mega Diancie, but this just limits its recovery further and makes it hard pressed to do its job. It also suffers a poor matchup against common Stealth Rock setters, and it can't prevent Latios from Defogging super reliably without recovery.

Gothitelle B -> B+
Sort of on the fence on this one. It is one of the most important pieces in the most successful type of stall build these days, and things like Shed Shell Manaphy / Togekiss + Ttar being found on ladder teams certainly attests to the impact its had on the metagame. On the other hand, it's fairly matchup based and also doesn't really help stall with Hoopa-U or Gengar (still a very legit threat to stall!) very much. Leaning toward a rise, but I do think it's kind of overrated.

Raikou A- -> A
I disagree with a rise despite how good the CM set is. I'd actually say the CM set is what is keeping Raikou in A-, although being a solid offensive check to electrics is nice. Despite the increased effectiveness in electrics (which Raikou checks) and decrease in Hippowdon's effectiveness (which checks Raikou), I don't think it merits A rank. Scarf Tyranitar is as popular as ever and smacks the hell out of Raikou as does Excadrill, both of which are increasingly popular due to how powerful Sand Offense is. I just don't really see it on par with stuff like Mega Gardevoir, Mega Venusaur, or the aforementioned Tyranitar. It's surely a good pokemon in the current metagame but I don't think it should rise.

Anyway a few other mons that can be discussed or considered part of the current slate in case you guys are bored of this one:

Togekiss B+ -> A-
Team was sort of split on this one, I actually forgot to add it to the first slate.

Mega Slowbro A -> A-
Similar to Togekiss

Breloom B+ -> A-
Pressures Sand Offense (and Rain Offense too) and Mega Lopunny. No surprise as Serp is rising; Grass is a nice offensive typing these days with Water and Ground types found on just about every build.

Latias A -> A-
Haven't really talked about this with the team yet but being a separate sub-rank from Starmie means this is kind of worth considering.
 
I completely agree with M-Bro falling to A-.
CM 2 Attacks is forced out by a lot. Manaphy (Due to fearing Energy Ball), Celebi, Serp, Hoopa-U, Ferro(Although it hates burns), M-Gyra( also hates burns, but has Taunt), Hydreigon, and any Electric type forces it to either give up its CM or try to break through what's out. Now if it kills what's out, it's going to be dented and not given much breathing room to Slack Off.
I mean it can take a lot of damage (maxed LO Bisharp Knock Off is a 3KO to Max Def Bro I think) but it doesn't get momentum off of switching like regular Bro does. And does anyone use CMRest? I heard it's pretty terrible, but it's basically screwed by anything with a set up move that resists.
Plus it uses up a Mega Slot and that is just a huge opprotunity cost in itself. Personally I don't see why it and Slowbro are in the same rank.
 

RufflesPro

formerly Professional2341


Stays A rank
I don't think Mega Slowbro should drop, it's utility and sweeping ability are just too great. First and foremost, Mega Slowbro's main viability lies in the fact that it can run only stuff like 56 EVs with a Bold Nature to not only have a defense bigger than max defense regular Solowbro, but also bigger than Skarmory's. What does this mean? It means that you have excessive extra EVs that you can put in SpD to not only allow MSlowbro to take special hits better, but also sweep better. Furthermore, Its great utility lies in its ability to check a HUGE amount of the metagame. First, it checks every single physical attacker I can think of right now (252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 56+ Def Mega Slowbro: 140-166 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock), bar Breloom, Mega Beedrill, and Mega Gyarados (Gyarados only has a 70% chance to win 1v1). Its amazing typing also allows it to check a good amount of special attackers, especially after 1 CM.

I think people are misunderstanding what Mega Slowbro is capable of. First off, the CM / Scald / Psyshock / Slack Off is not its only set, sure its the most popular, but its not the only one, and depending on the team, different versions of that set can be much more efficient. For example, Psyshock is not always needed, in particular, there are two other moves that can be much better depending on the team. One is Flamethrower/Fire Blast, and the other is Thunder Wave. Fire Blast allows Mega Slowbro to deal amazing amount of damage on Ferrothorn and Scizor on the switch, both which think they can switch safely (though even without fire blast, they can't thanks to Scald), and weaken Slowbro, but Fire Blast just bops them. Another thing Fire Blast is useful for, is that it makes Serperior and Celebi no longer counters, but mediocare checks at best. Mega Slowbro can easily take 1 Leaf Storm from Serperior at +1 (LO too) [
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. +1 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Slowbro: 244-291 (62 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO] and actually OHKO back with +1 Fire Blast. Thunder Wave on the other hand allows Mega Slowbro to outspeed everything up to paralyzed Weavile giving it an edge against the opposing team, since it can T-wave multiple of Pokemon. Not only that, Thunder wave cripples all Mega Slowbro's checks and counters bar Celebi, Electrics, and Ferrothorn. Meaning stuff like Manaphy and Serperior are much easier to deal with.

Another thing people are misunderstanding is that CM on Mega Slowbro is purely to help sweep, its not, in fact, its utility is way more appreciated. For example, after 1 CM, Mega Slowbro pretty much takes every single special hit in the meta, and can either 1) deal a lot of damage with +1 Scald / Psyshock, weakening the threat, or 2) Thunder Wave and cripple it for the rest of the match. Obviously, Mega Slowbro has its problems, although it can usually check a good portion of the game, it can be completely consistent throughout the match because of its low speed and lack of Regenrator, like for example if Serp did ~70% with Leaf Storm but MSlwobro KO'd back, it would be hard for Mega Slowbro to regain its health against offense.
 

Albacore

sludge bomb is better than sludge wave
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My main gripe with Breloom is that it's overly reliant on either its priority or its Focus Sash to check offensive threats. It can't really afford not to Mach Punch against a lot of faster threats in case they stay in (which is a real possibility given that it's mostly used as an anti-offense tool, and offense tends to be pretty unpredictable concerning whether it wants to stay in or switch out due to the existence of multiple possible win conditions), and if the opponent does switch out to a faster Fighting resist (which is a LOT of Pokemon currently), Breloom has bascially wasted a turn, and whatever it's supposed to check is just going to get another free kill later on. It just relies a lot on prediction to both do its job and pose an offensive threat at the same time. There's also a the fact that teams tend to automotically come with Breloom checks, and many of them have multiple checks to it (like Latios+Talonflame for example).
That being said, Spore is still fantastic for offense, especially agaist balanced teams (those that don't carry a Venusaur or Celebi anyway), and Poison Heal is actually pretty decent from what I've seen (althout it suffers from really notable flaws), but overall it's not as easy to use as anything in A-, and though it's pretty much the best thing in B+, I don't think it's quite good enough to go up a rank.

Latias should not be a subrank above Starmie period, if you need a Hazard remover, Starmie has pretty much as many reasons to be run over Latios as Latias overall, in fact I'd argue Starmie is better since it has way more things setting it apart from Latios like Natural Cure, actually beating Heatran easily, outspeeding Scarf TTar(nvm ignore this, it does outspeed serp which is a plus though!) and greater versatility overall.

I kinda mentioned this earlier but the main problem with Mega Slowbro is how easily it gets worn down, epsecially when compared to its non-mega counterpart. The loss of both Leftovers and Regenrator means that suff like SR, Spikes, burns, Leech Seed all add up to the point where, in practice, it's not really the amazing wall it seems like in theory, especially given the recent rise of Spikes+phazing which it performs really badly against. It also often has a hard time keeping up with repeated hits and can actually run out of Slack Off PP as a result, and if it gets forced out while slightly weakened, it's pretty much done for.

Togekiss is also something I mentioned in an earlier post, basically it has problems with offense in general, can't do much of anything if its faster checks are active, is very reliant on hax to stallbreak, struggles against the rise of balanced teams with fast things on them, and though it is often destructive it falls flat on its face just as often, overall it's too flawed and inconsistent to be A- rank despite its undeniable qualities imo.

I'm also going to talk about Cobalion to B- which, while not on the current slate, was mentioned by Celticpride a couple of days back, and is something totally see happen. It has a lot of flaws like not being very strong, really lacking in special bulk, being a bulky Steel-type without a Fairy-resistance, and having its dual STABs easily walled, so it shouldn't go higher than that; however it's still a solid utility Pokemon which fits on a surprising number of teams and really benefits from its high speed, giving it the ability to check wallbreakers like Kyu-B and MGardevoir. It's a decent SR setter with the advantage of being both fast and able to take hits relatively well, which makes it easy for it to set up its rocks. It als has a fair amount of versatility in its 4th moveslot, it can run Volt Switch to act as a pivot, Taunt to annoy defensive Pokemon like Mew, stop other SR setters from getting off easy rocks and prevent stuff like Manaphy from setting up on it, Toxic for bulky Waters and Grounds, Magnet Rise to screw over Lando-T and non-Fire Blast Garchomp, as well as various Pokemon that rely on Ground-type coverage to hit it like Kyu-B, Gyarados, and Diancie (but only on turn 1), SD to sweep slower teams, TWave becuase why the heck not, even Stone Edge for Talonflame and YZard. Also, the thing I said about balanced teams wanting fast things nowadys completely applies to Cobalion, since it's exactly the kind of bulky fast utility Pokemon which balanced teams really benefit from carrying.
 
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Clone

No more next year
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yo Albacore starmie still gets outsped by ttar because ttar is faster by one point.

anyways i really disagree with latias dropping. if anything, starmie should rise to a because its offensive sets right now are very hard to switch into. even bulky resists hate analytic hydros + a coverage move. to put it in perspective, an analytic lo hydro + ice beam is almost a guaranteed ohko against standard latias after stealth rock, which is no small feat. add on the fact that you have a rapid spinner that beats most hazard setters, i often wonder why starmie is as low as it is. i know its defensive sets are shit nowadays but its offensive sets are great imo. furthermore, aside from jellicent, offensive starmie is capable of beating both ou ghost types, so it can't be spinblocked (although i do admit that spinblocking is not very relevant nowadays due to defog being a thing).

i do realize that it has flaws. a dark weakness and a pursuit weakness don't help much, but what does help is that no dark types that carry pursuit are able to safely switch in, as all of weavile, scarf tyranitar, and bisharp are ohkoed by an analytic hydro pump. starmie also has very low longevity due to hazards + lo recoil, but its usually not too much of an issue because spinning away crucial spikes and rocks can change the tide of the game. one last argument against starmie is that it is strapped with moveslots, what with the choice of hydro pump, ice beam, hp fire, rapid spin, psychic, thunderbolt, etc. starmie can't cover everything, but it can tailor its moveset to the team.

for these reasons, i nominate starmie to rise to a.

as for latias itself, it gives crucial support to offensive teams through the use of healing wish and defog, and is more versatile than one might imagine. its power is average and less than that of latios, sure, but it makes up for it by being a much more consistent check to the likes of keldeo and venusaur, as it is capable of switching in more often. it is also able to act as an actual check to electric types, unlike latios, because hp ice from the main three (thundy, mega mane, and raikou) are incapable of 2hkoing her. you also have the fact that latias can actually lure things better than latios, because no one expects an earthquake latias, while it's somewhat common on latios. latias is even capable of handling dark-types, unlike her brother, due to the fact that it has the bulk to hold a colbur berry and live a crunch / knock off / sucker punch from the three main darks and 1/2hko all three after rocks. given their ubiquity and general effectiveness in the metagame, being capable of luring in these mons is a big plus in my eyes.

latias may not be the best mon in a rank, but the combination of all her traits and general effectiveness in the metagame makes me believe she should stay where she is.

holy crap i actually posted in the vr. i have renewed faith in this project so you might see me pop in more often :o
 
Aside from my biased love for Raikou(one of my fav mons, my fav electric mon), I think that it has some merits for it to go to A, for starters i dont think that it is as great as Tyra, but it feels above A- rank, to not completely the same, is kinda how Latios is A+ altough not being exactly at the same level as Chomp.

I think the meta has had some positive changes to Raikou(especially the CM set), a lot of its common checks are not as used anymore(an example being Hippo), making the momentum gain much more beneficial, since even the usual switch ins like M-Vena or M-CharX need to have mega evolved previously, or cannot check it if it trades Sub for Extrasensory(in the case of M-Vena), Sand Offense is a problem for it,but also it is for something like Heatran, and altough not at the same level as the later, its pros outweigh its cons by a fair margin, since it provides a nice answer to common threats, alongside being a nice win con(which provides role diversity in team since it is not compromised completely to just one).

I would elaborate further, but I am kinda busy now,so i will leave it for later, but I hope you could give a little more tought into it, if you have used Raikou recently you should know how good it feels atm.
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
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For the billionth time, post replays and solid reasoning for unranked to ranked nominations.

Deleted a bunch of responses to one such post which didn't have much of a description and no replays. Ends up with replies asking what the mon does, which is something that really needs to be stated to begin with
 
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My main gripe with Breloom is that it's overly reliant on either its priority or its Focus Sash to check offensive threats. It can't really afford not to Mach Punch against a lot of faster threats in case they stay in (which is a real possibility given that it's mostly used as an anti-offense tool, and offense tends to be pretty unpredictable concerning whether it wants to stay in or switch out due to the existence of multiple possible win conditions), and if the opponent does switch out to a faster Fighting resist (which is a LOT of Pokemon currently), Breloom has bascially wasted a turn, and whatever it's supposed to check is just going to get another free kill later on. It just relies a lot on prediction to both do its job and pose an offensive threat at the same time. There's also a the fact that teams tend to automotically come with Breloom checks, and many of them have multiple checks to it (like Latios+Talonflame for example).
That being said, Spore is still fantastic for offense, especially agaist balanced teams (those that don't carry a Venusaur or Celebi anyway), and Poison Heal is actually pretty decent from what I've seen (althout it suffers from really notable flaws), but overall it's not as easy to use as anything in A-, and though it's pretty much the best thing in B+, I don't think it's quite good enough to go up a rank.

Latias should not be a subrank above Starmie period, if you need a Hazard remover, Starmie has pretty much as many reasons to be run over Latios as Latias overall, in fact I'd argue Starmie is better since it has way more things setting it apart from Latios like Natural Cure, actually beating Heatran easily, outspeeding Scarf TTar(nvm ignore this, it does outspeed serp which is a plus though!) and greater versatility overall.

I kinda mentioned this earlier but the main problem with Mega Slowbro is how easily it gets worn down, epsecially when compared to its non-mega counterpart. The loss of both Leftovers and Regenrator means that suff like SR, Spikes, burns, Leech Seed all add up to the point where, in practice, it's not really the amazing wall it seems like in theory, especially given the recent rise of Spikes+phazing which it performs really badly against. It also often has a hard time keeping up with repeated hits and can actually run out of Slack Off PP as a result, and if it gets forced out while slightly weakened, it's pretty much done for.

Togekiss is also something I mentioned in an earlier post, basically it has problems with offense in general, can't do much of anything if its faster checks are active, is very reliant on hax to stallbreak, struggles against the rise of balanced teams with fast things on them, and though it is often destructive it falls flat on its face just as often, overall it's too flawed and inconsistent to be A- rank despite its undeniable qualities imo.

I'm also going to talk about Cobalion to B- which, while not on the current slate, was mentioned by Celticpride a couple of days back, and is something totally see happen. It has a lot of flaws like not being very strong, really lacking in special bulk, being a bulky Steel-type without a Fairy-resistance, and having its dual STABs easily walled, so it shouldn't go higher than that; however it's still a solid utility Pokemon which fits on a surprising number of teams and really benefits from its high speed, giving it the ability to check wallbreakers like Kyu-B and MGardevoir. It's a decent SR setter with the advantage of being both fast and able to take hits relatively well, which makes it easy for it to set up its rocks. It als has a fair amount of versatility in its 4th moveslot, it can run Volt Switch to act as a pivot, Taunt to annoy defensive Pokemon like Mew, stop other SR setters from getting off easy rocks and prevent stuff like Manaphy from setting up on it, Toxic for bulky Waters and Grounds, Magnet Rise to screw over Lando-T and non-Fire Blast Garchomp, as well as various Pokemon that rely on Ground-type coverage to hit it like Kyu-B, Gyarados, and Diancie (but only on turn 1), SD to sweep slower teams, TWave becuase why the heck not, even Stone Edge for Talonflame and YZard. Also, the thing I said about balanced teams wanting fast things nowadys completely applies to Cobalion, since it's exactly the kind of bulky fast utility Pokemon which balanced teams really benefit from carrying.
Breloom is also capable of running Life Orb on SD sets which can really pressure defensive checks to the Focus Sash set like Unaware Clefable, Celebi, Mega Sableye and even Tornadus-T, depending on damage rolls and hits on Bullet Seed.

Calcs:

Clefable

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 225-273 (57.2 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Celebi

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Celebi: 102-120 (25.2 - 29.7%) -- approx. 92.8% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Not exactly great, but Celebi is forced to heal if it plans to switch into LO Breloom consistently, which is essentially a free switch into Weavile/Tornadus-T on the Breloom user's part. Celebi is also used as a Keldeo counter and Thundurus check, meaning that it's not likely to be at full all the time.

Mega Sableye

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 165-192 (54.4 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tornadus-T

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 156-186 (46.9 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Assuming a min roll on both 3 Bullet Seed hits and a Mach Punch, Breloom can deal ~72% to Tornadus-T on average. Combined with Stealth Rock on the field, Tornadus is at 97%, if not knocked out (by damage rolls and amount of Bullet Seed hits). If it doesn't KO, it has the potential to force a switch into something to take a Mach Punch, making it a notable threat.


Of course, Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur are problematic to any Breloom set bar Natural Gift shenanigans. It's arguable that if it opts to run Life Orb over Sash, Breloom will lose out on somewhat favorable match ups against offense, like checking preventing Charizard X from boosting speed, or beating Life Orb Thundurus 1v1 with Rock Tomb + Focus Sash, but the amount of raw power behind LO Bullet Seed and the ability to put something to sleep are equally as devastating imo.

tl;dr: Sash isn't Loom's only set, meaning that it's not truly one-dimensional with the exception of an uncommon Poison Heal set, and that the added power behind Technician Bullet Seed and Mach Punch is greatly welcomed in some cases.
 
-Clone- Latias really needs to drop. I have been asking Henry about it before he left and I really got little discussion out of it. Sure, Electric checks are valuable, but Latias is very easy to counter-play against due to its vulnerability to Pursuit and how easily top threats take advantage of her. You mention its inability to get 2HKOd by Electric's HP Ice, but most Electrics are used in teams featuring such threats mentioned earlier that take complete advantage of Latias anyways. Pursuit trappers are quite valuable right now, and Healing Wish is the only thing of relative value that makes Latias worth using. Even then, regardless of how many roles you could possibly compress with it, you still suffer a lot of opportunity cost for fitting Latias into your team due to how easily Latias forfeits momentum on offensive teams, which are the type of teams Latias is supposed to fit on. Using Colbur Berry only exacerbates this forfeiting of momentum, as Latias is now a lot easier to exploit due to reliant it is on Life Orb to deal notable damage with Draco Meteor or Psyshock. Dropping Latias is long overdue, and there is no reason it belongs in A Rank when most of the A Ranks are significantly less exploitable than it.
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
In my opinion the main reason to drop Latias is that Latios and Offensive Starmie are better picks for offensive hazards removers. Latios and Starmie suffer from the same pursuit weakness and the same weakness to offensive electrics as you mentioned Alfalfa, so I don't really buy that argument in favor of dropping Latias. If you compare it to Latios you only have 3 reasons to use Latias over Latios: unpredictability, more special bulk and healing wish. The better special bulk is nice to check / revengekill electric types, zard y and alakazam, but because of the power drop you will miss some very important KOs. Definitely if you consider that these pokemon are almost always used on offensive teams, missing the extra power will often result in one of your mons having to take a huge hit. Healing Wish is the primary reason I could see Latias staying in A, but imo it's not worth a subrank above Starmie. I rather see both Starmie and Latias in A- than in A.
 
In my opinion the main reason to drop Latias is that Latios and Offensive Starmie are better picks for offensive hazards removers. Latios and Starmie suffer from the same pursuit weakness and the same weakness to offensive electrics as you mentioned Alfalfa, so I don't really buy that argument in favor of dropping Latias. If you compare it to Latios you only have 3 reasons to use Latias over Latios: unpredictability, more special bulk and healing wish. The better special bulk is nice to check / revengekill electric types, zard y and alakazam, but because of the power drop you will miss some very important KOs. Definitely if you consider that these pokemon are almost always used on offensive teams, missing the extra power will often result in one of your mons having to take a huge hit. Healing Wish is the primary reason I could see Latias staying in A, but imo it's not worth a subrank above Starmie. I rather see both Starmie and Latias in A- than in A.
Latias' ability to check Zard Y and Electrics is exaggerated because, as I stated before, these mons are almost always paired with Pursuit trappers that essentially nullify Latias' ability to check them. Latias really isn't that unpredictable either; while running coverage moves on Latias would certainly surprise an opponent, Defog + Healing Wish are necessities on Latias should it want to be of any value to a team.
 
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