Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

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View attachment 61568 M-Altaria A- --> A
Well this one will probably stir up debate. M-Altaria is probably one of the better mega in OU in my opinion. This is like the slower, bulkier M-Gardevoir in a way. M-Altaria's typing is very unique and great for some team synergy. This Pokemon also has great physical, special and defensive rolls in the meta. Once M-Altaria sets up you better hope you have a Scizor to BP because this thing can sweep a team. This Pokemon has reliable recovery, good coverage, and a great typing. This is like the bulkier M-Gardevoir. And that speed is patched by DD. I honestly think M-Altaria should in no way be in M-Gardevoir's shadow as it is at the time being.
M-alt has just dropped. I'd say that maybe you should wait awhile for this nomination, tbh. Let the meta settle for a bit,y'know.
Anyways, I think that ferrothorn is still A+ material because t-wave, SR, leech seed, and (to a lesser extent) spikes are really useful now.
 
Ok these are valid points but Ferrothorn doesn't actually have a lot of field presence due to most teams carrying Heatran, Volcanion, or Talon if offensive, or Sableye if defensive. It's more just bait for those than anything. Honestly I'd just prefer the ability to spikes + whirl shuffle than a main stab on a defensive mon with really limited pp. Also, the lack of reliable recovery means it doesn't really prop up a core in the way you'd hope, it shouldn't just be healing to full really easily. In fact I see it pressured pretty hard whenever it is used, precisely because of this problem. In terms of my initial post, I made it with the assumption that dropping stuff is the way forward, and I think Ferro is definitely one of the weakest mons in A+.
 

starry blanket

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imo ferro / skarmory mostly boils down to preference and what you have leftover to check when forming the defensive backbone of a more balanced build, for example. this situation isn't the same as chomp v. lando-t on offensive builds (with comparable sets to one another ofc) because ferro provides a bit different utility than skarm and vice-versa. regardless, they're really roughly equal in terms of viability & being able to be plopped on balance builds, so because of that, they should definitely be the same rank.

as for which rank they should be placed in specifically, that depends on the direction this thread takes with the ranking system. in the current ranking system, i feel that A is more appropriate as ferro seemingly aligns better with the stuff there (mega latias, slowbro, jirachi); whereas in A+, it looks really out of place next to stuff like heatran, chomp, lando-t, tyranitar, mega scizor, etc..
 

KratosMana

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Nidoking`s a damn monster atm. Being able to crush through pretty much any balance team that doesn`t have like max spdef slowking or a random chansey(shoutouts abr) is awesome. And as a bonus u get a ~decent~ clef, diancie and terrakion check. And it only gets better with volcanion released, just a new food that`s ohkod by epower. Here`s a replay from fv releasing the beast(playin for powc) http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-157065
Should def move up a lil

Heracross should probably move up a bit as well. The sub set pretty much 6x0s the most common stall atm(weav stall) alone. And unlike many other stallbreakers, it doesn`t even do bad vs the other playstiles(hurts balance a lot, should be able to at least take 1 mon with him if ur playing offense), and it`s a dam bish check(which means a lot in a metagame that has such a fantastic offensive mon being sometimes used defensively to check it). If ur tired of having a keld in every damn team try this guy out; give it some healing wish support and u`ll see even better results.

Other things to consider are medicham movin up and manaphy/zardy droppin a bit, but those are mostly personal opinions so won`t comment on em
 
Medicham definitely needs to move up. In a fatter metagame, it can afford to run Adamant, meaning that it becomes an even more disgusting wallbreaker. It's also able to break past common physical walls like PhysDef Tangrowth and Hippo (although Slowbro/King are still fairly common and stop you, but ThunderPunch is a great option that also hits Skarmory).
 

Eclipse

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Tangrowth: B+ --> A-

Tangrowth is a beast right now. With both its AV and PhysDef being extremely potent in the meta, Tangrowth ends up putting in immense work consistently due to its insane physical bulk in regards to the PhysDef set and its great overall bulk in regards to the AV set. With sand and Tyranitar being as common as it is in the meta right now, Tangrowth thrives in the current meta. It easily walls pokemon like Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Breloom, and the PhysDef set walls non-Band Tyranitar (although it doesn't get 2HKO'd by Stone Edge after sand and Lefties from the Band set which is nice) and can take on pokemon like Thundurus, Serperior, M-Diancie, M-Alakazam with AV. Simply put, Tangrowth can take on a huge portion of the meta with ease, and although it doesn't fare too well against Volcanion, its fellow bulky Grass brethren such as Amoonguss certainly don't do any better against it. Tangrowth also has the advantage of not being very passive due to its giant movepool and good offensive stats, and of course, Regenerator being a huge boon for it, meaning Tangrowth can pivot around with ease, providing huge utility for many teams right now. Tangrowth currently, in my eyes, is the premier bulky Grass in the meta right now, and a rise to A- rank would be fitting for it. And speaking of Amoonguss...

Amoonguss: A- --> B+

Alright, this thing has certainly been hyped up enough of late and should definitely not be ranked any higher than Tangrowth at this point in the meta. While yes, it certainly does have many advantages over Tangrowth. Mainly great overall bulk without necessitating the use of AV, Spore, and Poison typing (both a blessing and a curse, which I will get to in a bit) which allows Amoonguss to take on Diancie, Keldeo, and Azumarill with far greater ease than Tangrowth. However, with Volcanion making its presence known as one of the best Azu checks in the tier, Amoonguss is starting to find it difficult to distinguish itself from Tangrowth. Amoonguss is also WAY too passive in comparison to Tangrowth, as Tangrowth has Knock Off along with wide coverage, whereas Amoonguss' non-STAB options are incredibly weak. Amoonguss still has Clear Smog, which is nice for dealing with setup attackers and is a nice niche that it has over Tangrowth along with Spore. But as I mentioned before, the Poison typing means that it finds difficulty in dealing with Ground types, especially Excadrill, and can find itself too pressured by sand builds to do much other than throw out a Spore. And then once it throws out a Spore, it just kinda sits there and can't threaten all too much due to not having much offensive presence. Overall, while Amoonguss is still a solid option in the meta, I find that Tangrowth offers much more to the table than Amoonguss and should not be ranked any higher than it, so drop to B+ rank is just right for it.
 
Excuse me if this has already been discussed, but why is Conkeldurr in C+? The assault vest set is really good, being able to tank strong special and physical hits alike, as well as dishing out hard damage with that base 140 attack. Guts allows him to be a great status absorber, making him a great partner for literally any set up sweeper, as any status gives him Choice Band caliber power. Drain Punch, Mach Punch, and Knock Off are all he needs to be an excellent utility for any team in need of a fighting type. Conk also has a good set in the sheer force LO set. I guess C+ just seems low to me.
 
Excuse me if this has already been discussed, but why is Conkeldurr in C+? The assault vest set is really good, being able to tank strong special and physical hits alike, as well as dishing out hard damage with that base 140 attack. Guts allows him to be a great status absorber, making him a great partner for literally any set up sweeper, as any status gives him Choice Band caliber power. Drain Punch, Mach Punch, and Knock Off are all he needs to be an excellent utility for any team in need of a fighting type. Conk also has a good set in the sheer force LO set. I guess C+ just seems low to me.
How does his bulk make up for his lack of speed? He can't wallbreak nearly as hard as someone as Keldeo and Infernape and as a tank Conkeldurr struggles a lot against mons like Zard X, M-Venusaur, M-Alt, Clefable and the likes. Mons like AV Tangrowth and AV Tornadus-T fill much more uses as damage walls thanks to typing and abilities. Not to say Conkeldurr isn't usable, just he's kind of lacking too many niches at this moment.
 
Excuse me if this has already been discussed, but why is Conkeldurr in C+? The assault vest set is really good, being able to tank strong special and physical hits alike, as well as dishing out hard damage with that base 140 attack. Guts allows him to be a great status absorber, making him a great partner for literally any set up sweeper, as any status gives him Choice Band caliber power. Drain Punch, Mach Punch, and Knock Off are all he needs to be an excellent utility for any team in need of a fighting type. Conk also has a good set in the sheer force LO set. I guess C+ just seems low to me.
conk in general just doesnt do a lot other fighting types in the tier do. its overly reliant on drain punch which is really weak stab, and its too slow to seriously threaten offense. 90% of all stall has an answer to it in sableye, it doesnt have sd, and the other fighting types in the tier like breloom, terrakion, keld, lop, etc just offer more than conk ever could. Also the av set is kind of terrible imo i would only ever use LO + SF.
 

Subjugator

Banned deucer.
The introduction of Volcanion has kind of undone the (formerly) increasing trend of the usage of Bulky Grass types such as Amoonguss, Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, as all of these mons are OHKO'd (and a 2HKO on Venu) with one Fire Blast, and what can these Pokemon do against it in return? Absolutely nothing. I guess Ferrothorn can use T-Wave and Amoonguss can use Spore, but both will quickly die before they can even use an attack. Mega Venusaur scores a 3HKO on Volcanion at best, and Fire Blast is definitely going to do a ton to Mega Venusaur, even with Thick Fat being added into the equation.

And it isn't like Water types are very good at stopping Volcanion either. Many of the popular ones, such as Rotom-Wash, Keldeo, Manaphy, Quagsire, Gyarados, and Azumarill are being 2HKO'd by a Steam Eruption, HP Grass, or Sludge Bomb, and Volcanion is bulky enough to take on most of these guys. It seems as if Volcanion's existence has kind of disregarded both Water and Grass types.

The point of these two paragraphs is that I'm not sure that any Grass type should rise for the time being, as with Volcanion lurking in every corner, they're gonna be forced out.
 
I think Tangrowth should still rise to A- regardless of Volcanion's current popularity, considering it's basically THE go-to bulky grass type for balance teams right now. The overall utility it provides for a team with its AV set is incredible, checking a huge number of dangerous threats, and with Regenerator it attains incredible longevity in the long run when combined with its impressive bulk. It's not like Tangrowth is a total slouch offensively either; with decent offensive stats (100/110) and fairly good coverage with Giga Drain, HP Fire/Ice, Knock Off and Earthquake, it can at least deal some decent chip damage while it's in. Earthquake does 38.8 - 45.7% damage to 72 HP / 0 Def Volcanion, which is enough to deter it from getting a completely free switch in. Physically defensive Tangrowth with Rocky Helmet is also viable right now, which lets it use moves like Sleep Powder and Leech Seed and makes it nearly impenetrable on the physical side, although you lose the ability to check Keldeo reliably.
 

MrAldo

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In fact, I dont think volcanion popularity hinder both bulky grasses choices in amoonguss and tangrowth at all, volcanion fear switching into spore and sleep powder respectively, it even hate getting leech seeded since rocks weaknesses but losing 12% takes a good toll.

Just wanted to clarify that, and to say that amoonguss and tangrowth should switch ranks. The ground resistance tangrowth is incredibly valuable in this team, really similar point I like to make in RU (really hope this mon stays in its home tier, otherwise, hell will riot!!) since the ability to pivot into mons like landorus-therian and the omnipresent sand core is really valuable while providing similar utility.

The choice between the 2 really depends on the team structure, I suppose one can say that mega latias pair really well with tangrowth making keldeo something to not worry about too much but that comes with an opportunity cost and amoonguss being one of the most reliable keldeo answers is nice. I do agree tangrowth offers much more on role compression and should rise to A- will amoonguss should go down to B+
 
The introduction of Volcanion has kind of undone the (formerly) increasing trend of the usage of Bulky Grass types such as Amoonguss, Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, as all of these mons are OHKO'd (and a 2HKO on Venu) with one Fire Blast, and what can these Pokemon do against it in return? Absolutely nothing.
While it is true that Volcanion's presence is annoying for bulky grass types, it's not like Volcanion is the only Fire type that is used in OU. The existence of Talonflame, Zard X and Y, and even stuff like Volcarona and Victini have always threatened these grass types, and they've all still maintained a great amount of usefulness.

And it isn't like Water types are very good at stopping Volcanion either. Many of the popular ones, such as Rotom-Wash, Keldeo, Manaphy, Quagsire, Gyarados, and Azumarill are being 2HKO'd by a Steam Eruption, HP Grass, or Sludge Bomb, and Volcanion is bulky enough to take on most of these guys. It seems as if Volcanion's existence has kind of disregarded both Water and Grass types.
It is true that waters are annoyed by Volcanion's presence to some degree, but you've underestimated what those pokes can do back.

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 118-141 (39.2 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (not even specs, lo, cm boosted, or focus blast)
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 223-263 (74 - 87.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 214-252 (71 - 83.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 192-226 (63.7 - 75%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 204-240 (67.7 - 79.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

and in return,
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 236-278 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (cant 1v1 unless crit)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 216-256 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (again, cant beat it 1v1 unless crit or a low ass roll)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 172-204 (51.9 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (AGAIN cant beat it 1v1 unless crit + prior damage)

Azu is outsped and dies, but as shown above, Volc isnt an amazing switch in.

As for Tangrowth and Amoonguss's ranks, I agree with their ranks switching, as Tangrowth walls/checks a bunch with PhysDef (my preferred set) and AV (still nice for stuff like Mega Diancie, but losing the def is a letdown to become an average Keldeo check too), while not being passive, unlike an Amoonguss that has already used Spore.
 
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I'm just curious as to why Starmie is in A-, its one of the best Keldeo answers, fits on many different playstyles, has reliable recovery and isn't too taken back by the introduction of volcanion, it feels like an A rank mon to me
 

Century Express

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Yep, i agree with the idea of switching Amoonguss to B+ and Tangrowth to A-. Tangrowth isn't only dedicated to fill a lot of teambuilding holes (Ground- and Water-resists). You can make it flexible to cover a specific threat of your team, as HP Ice to cover more reliably SD Grounds, HP Fire to avoid set-up scenarios vs M-Zor, or even some tweaks like Toxic or Rock Slide, or putting a Rocky Helmet to punish Mega Lopunny and Bisharp more reliably. I see Amoonguss doing a more unidimensional function, and although i don't care about the "after it sleeps someone it's passive" argument too much, Amoonguss fills a couple of nichs overall (covering Fairies and Water-types), he's more easier to exploit depending of his coverage, being a lot spikes | set-up bait, and his neutrality against Ground-types is a relevant thing as well.

I think Ferrothorn should drop to A instead of A+, not because of Volcanion nor Spikes competition, but simply because the metagame is unfriendly to it. Stuff like HP Fire Cube, HP Fire Lati or Diancie (if Diancie uses EP that means that it's usually paired with a Zone) and a couple of common trends makes him kinda unreliable or forces it to scout and open more space for your opponent to outplay you, and there are some annoying teambuilding flaws as well imo. There are a lot of builds that i want to slap Ferrothorn because because it gives valious resists (Steel utility mon + Rocks or Spikes + water-resist), and the niche of alleviating the Rain Offense matchups. But in the other side of coin, if you choose him instead of dudes like Heatran and Klefki, that only compounds the weakness of the team against the Flying-types (think about Torn-T), if you don't use Iron Head + Thunder Wave, that means that Clefable can outstall the Gyro Ball PPs and use him as a set-up bait anyways, if you use Gyro Ball + TWave, you forgo SR or Spikes or Leech Seed, so it tends to get overloaded on his moveslots or functions (for example, fantastic Azuma switch-in, but hates switch-in vs Rotom-W and Manaphy, something which doesn't happens with Tang or Amoonguss that often), so people need to be careful with Ferrothorn's pros & cons. Don't get me wrong, i still think Ferrothorn is a pretty solid mon, but i honestly don't think that he's A+ material, but i guess people overrate him a bit because he's /splashable/ on lazy FGW or common Sands cores, but w/e.

Bisharp should drop to A+ to A too, although it's the one of main reasons (with Weavile) that encourages people to slap Keldeo or a Scarftar to not get swept after it setups a SD, but again, the metagame isn't too kind for it. People are overprepared for it and use Keldeo and Garchomp with a insane frequency, and even if you give him proper support (overloading him with Sucker Punch + priority of other things like M-Zor or Azuma), there are conventional ways to circumvent that, like pairing Keldeo with a Healing Wish user, or making their Rotom hit a higher speed benchmark. If you have a Hippowdon, Gliscor, Keldeo or Scarftar on Bulky | Balanced squads Bisharp won't be doing too much anyways, same thing applies for (Semi-) Stall. But at least his niche as a Defiant is pretty important for a lot of offensive teams, and makes people play carefully with Lando-T, and being a good emmergency button with priority and Clefable is obviously very important.

Slowking and Nidoking deserve to be B+. The former is pretty convenient, you can make his spread flexible and it'll be consistently switching in against LO Torn-T and Medicham simultanealy, and having a good time in a CM War is Clefable is wonderful too, unfortunately it's more easier to be punished by Pursuit users, unlike Slowbro. Nidoking is probably the best offensive Clefable switch-in (maybe after Excadrill) and puts pressure on a lot of builds, but that is it. It won't provide any extra niche (unless if you want to innovate with Toxic Spikes or VERY SOFT Electric switch-in, i guess?), and it's frail as hell. It sounds more useful than stuff like Crawdaunt and regular Scizor for me, though.

Also, A- is perfect for Hippo, he it isn't that outclassed by Lando-T or Chomper (unlike Lando-T he doesn't force you to play more carefully against Bisharp, and unlike both he can switch reliably on Mega Manectric and Raikou, Thundurus is a bit tricky tho, also don't forget his reliable recovery). It's more specific for Balance or Bulky builds and less splashable than Lando-T | Chomper, but that doesn't mean that he's bad on his job. Sorry if i kael'd here too much :(
 
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Martin

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I don't get why people are calling for a Ferro drop when if anything its getting better as opposed to worse. Like, it has literally the exact same list of pros and cons as it has had for the past however-many months while it benefits from the builds that it fits onto (Spikes stacking, sand, BO and "lazy FWG" balance) getting better in the current metagame and with it being one of the better partners for Volcanion on balanced builds, and in return the meta is no less kind to it than it has been for ages. Also all of this stuff about how it's pressured for moveslots is pretty ridiculous considering that the moves it runs are entirely team-dependent. The thing is, it is barely different from an attacker choosing what it loses to. This is not a negative thing, and it just shows that Ferro is versatile--making it that much easier to fit onto a wider range of builds. If you're using non-T-Wave+Iron Head Ferro as your sole Clefable answer then quite frankly you deserve to lose to it anyway, Gyro+Wave is just straight up bad so idk why you even brought it up, same applies for sets with both types of hazards and it isn't any worse for the Torny matchup than Heatran is, as if anything its better than it in said matchup if it carries T-Wave and/or Chople/Occa as it means that Torny can't switch in on it safely in the case of the former whereas the latter allows it to take a hit from either Superpower or Heat Wave, respectively, and proceed to either cripple it with T-wave or deal massive damage with Gyro Ball, depending on the set. In addition, there's no rule saying you can't run Heatran or any other Steel-type on a team alongside Ferrothorn. Hell, dual steel builds are really solid in general (FerroTran is a very consistent core, for example), and by pairing it with other Steel-types can help fill some of its roles and free up moveslots to either do something else that your teammates don't (e.g. SR on one and Spikes on the other) or to stack roles to increase the pressure that is put onto the opposing team (e.g. T-Wave spam). Keep Ferrothorn A+
 
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Mega Heracross B+ --> A- or higher
M-Heracross is currently one of the most underrated megas right now. It really has very few counters. If a team is able to keep up offensive momentum with Volt-Turn and it's "counters" are weakened this thing gets a kill everytime it comes out. For example, Unaware Clefable is sometimes used as a counter to Mega Heracross.
252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 160-190 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- approx. 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery

Yeah, no. If you're able to force Clefable out once it can no longer switch in to Mega Heracross. Same thing for Skarmory.
+2 252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 205-245 (61.3 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
You force something out, SD on the switch then destroy.

Not to mention if Mega Heracross is paired with Kyurem-B, nothing can counter the both of them. Mega Heracross's common "counters" are easily destroyed by Kyurem-B and vice versa.

Mega Heracross can also be surprisingly bulky. It has 80/115/105 bulk which is nothing to laugh at, and it also has a surprisingly good defensive typing. It serves as a counter to Bisharp,Breloom,Landorus-T,Excadrill,and Hippowdon. Also with the rise of stall teams on the ladder,with Hoopa-U gone, Mega Heracross serves as a substitute to Hoopa as it decimates stall teams,as shown by the calcs above.

If Mega Heracross is played correctly and is put on the right team it cannot be countered. It should definitely be above B+ imo.
 
i got you bludz
D to Unranked
Going off what I said in the above noms, Fighting-types are incredible right now, but Pangoro does not lie in that criteria. With competition such as Terrakion, Mega Medicham, and Mega Lopunny there's very little reason to even consider Pangoro with so many better options that are despite it's relatively obscure niche, simply put, so much better than it.

more controversial nom
A -> A-
Mega Gyarados is really starting to struggle to cement itself a solid place in the metagame. With Grass-types such as Physically Defensive Tangrowth and Amoonguss seeing a ton more usage and Fighting-types more prominent than ever, it doesn't really fit the criteria of an A, especially a ranking occupied by Mega Latias and Mega Medicham. Obviously when supported very well it's incredibly scary to face, but the support it requires to function as well as it'd like is what holds it back.

A few other noms I has were Thundurus-T to C+ and Conkeldurr to C, but i suppose they may be more controversial. Thundurus-T faces huge competition from Thundurus-I and with the recent decline of electric-types a drop would be fit for it and Conkeldurr fits the Pangoro argument, that there is very little reason to even use it when there are better options available.
Can't agree here. 'Relatively obscure niche' is sufficient grounds in itself for the D rank, and a comparisons with Terrakion, Mega Lop and Megacham are not apt because none of those function anything like Pangoro. You don't use Pangoro -in place of- those Pokemon.
 
Just saying that if Nidoking really goes up then so should Nidoqueen. Poison/Ground is becoming ridiculously good nowadays and Nidoqueen still hits pretty hard, especially since it can afford to run Modest. Queen also sets up rocks much easier, so it should go up to at least B- imo.
 

Martin

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Pangoro is probably one of the worst--if not the worst--Pokémon in D right now, and with the big rankings cleanup coming up it is pretty much guaranteed to drop. Also the comparison with Terrakion and MegaCham are perfectly justified because all three are Fighting-type wallbreakers. Band Panda is outclassed by Band Terrak most of the time, AoA is outclassed by MegaCham most of the time, SD is typically done better by Terrakion most of the time and unlike both Terrak and Medicham Pangoro is complete dead weight versus offense. Hell, another good comparison is to Bisharp, who does the same thing as a Dark-type powermon better due to its access to its access to Sucker Punch meaning that it doesn't fall flat versus offense. Tl;dr Panda sucks and should drop.

On another note, I guess I'll comment on the hippo nom. I personally agree with this on the basis that a lot of current trends go against Hippo. What I am referring to here is the decline in Electric-types, the rise in sand usage and the general surge of Pokémon which beat it, including but not limited to Keldeo, Volcanion, Kyurem-B and most Grass-types. The sand usage point was more due to the fact that its best ability (Sand Stream) becomes a liability when paired against opposing sand and because sacrificing Sand Stream for Sand Force means that you lose the pressure that having the sand chip damage puts onto the opponent. Additionally, when I'm teambuilding, I don't think "how am I going to break through Hippo?" so much as I think "how am I going to break through Ground-types?", and this mindset in mind it is pretty safe to say that teams are just getting more and more prepared for Hippo. While the rise in fat balance that came about due to the Hoopa-U ban is kinda in its favor given that this is where it tends to fit best the fact is that numbers don't lie with regards to its threats just being extremely high in usage while the stuff that it beats is getting lower. In addition, the sheer competition it has for a teamslot when put next to the two big Ground-types (Lando-T and Garchomp) is insane, meaning that it is just really hard to justify using this thing in general as your team's Ground-type. It eats momentum for breakfast, and in a metagame where momentum is key this simply isn't a good thing. Drop Hippowdon.
 
Just saying that if Nidoking really goes up then so should Nidoqueen. Poison/Ground is becoming ridiculously good nowadays and Nidoqueen still hits pretty hard, especially since it can afford to run Modest. Queen also sets up rocks much easier, so it should go up to at least B- imo.
Um what? This isn't uu and afaik uu is the only place the bulk nidoqueen has actually does something significant. Queen runs modest because it doesn't have a good speed tier,but even then you can argue it should run timid too for stuff like jolly loom and to outspeed most rotom. Furthermore nidos have terrible matchup vs other hazard setters and removers and have to give up extremely valuable coverage for rocks, so imo neither should be running rocks in the first place.

Edit: oops nvm about rotom
 
Mega Heracross B+ --> A- or higher
M-Heracross is currently one of the most underrated megas right now. It really has very few counters. If a team is able to keep up offensive momentum with Volt-Turn and it's "counters" are weakened this thing gets a kill everytime it comes out. For example, Unaware Clefable is sometimes used as a counter to Mega Heracross.
252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 160-190 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- approx. 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery

Yeah, no. If you're able to force Clefable out once it can no longer switch in to Mega Heracross. Same thing for Skarmory.
+2 252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 205-245 (61.3 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
You force something out, SD on the switch then destroy.

Not to mention if Mega Heracross is paired with Kyurem-B, nothing can counter the both of them. Mega Heracross's common "counters" are easily destroyed by Kyurem-B and vice versa.

Mega Heracross can also be surprisingly bulky. It has 80/115/105 bulk which is nothing to laugh at, and it also has a surprisingly good defensive typing. It serves as a counter to Bisharp,Breloom,Landorus-T,Excadrill,and Hippowdon. Also with the rise of stall teams on the ladder,with Hoopa-U gone, Mega Heracross serves as a substitute to Hoopa as it decimates stall teams,as shown by the calcs above.

If Mega Heracross is played correctly and is put on the right team it cannot be countered. It should definitely be above B+ imo.
Hell yes. Not only is Heracross my favorite Pokémon to use, but it's stupidly powerful and quite bulky as well. Speaking of bulk, the bulky offensive spread has also gained a lot of popularity now, making it harder to kill while still keeping it an offensive behemoth. This guy's also right about stall taking over the ladder: the rise of Amoonguss and Quagsire to OU speak for themselves.
 
Mega Heracross B+ --> A- or higher
M-Heracross is currently one of the most underrated megas right now. It really has very few counters. If a team is able to keep up offensive momentum with Volt-Turn and it's "counters" are weakened this thing gets a kill everytime it comes out. For example, Unaware Clefable is sometimes used as a counter to Mega Heracross.
252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 160-190 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- approx. 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery

Yeah, no. If you're able to force Clefable out once it can no longer switch in to Mega Heracross. Same thing for Skarmory.
+2 252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 205-245 (61.3 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
You force something out, SD on the switch then destroy.

Not to mention if Mega Heracross is paired with Kyurem-B, nothing can counter the both of them. Mega Heracross's common "counters" are easily destroyed by Kyurem-B and vice versa.

Mega Heracross can also be surprisingly bulky. It has 80/115/105 bulk which is nothing to laugh at, and it also has a surprisingly good defensive typing. It serves as a counter to Bisharp,Breloom,Landorus-T,Excadrill,and Hippowdon. Also with the rise of stall teams on the ladder,with Hoopa-U gone, Mega Heracross serves as a substitute to Hoopa as it decimates stall teams,as shown by the calcs above.

If Mega Heracross is played correctly and is put on the right team it cannot be countered. It should definitely be above B+ imo.
I agree. I believe Mega Heracross should rise to at least -A, as very few pokemon can switch into this monster and even the ones that can struggle to still beat Heracross 1 on 1 because of Mega Heracross's great bulk. Currently the only pokemon that "truly" counter Heracross are Doublade and Acrobatics Gliscor, and those pokemon are not used very often. While I do think that Heracross' poor speed and 4x weakness to flying really hold it back from being amazing, I still think that is on par with many other -A pokemon, and does not deserve to be in B+.
 
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