"Mixed Walls" Don't Really Exist

Sunsatzu

i am not downing "BulkyWaters" or legendary's like Cresselia

im talking about supposed "mixed walls" like Bronzong, Dusknoir, Umbreon, and any other poke where the defenses are awesome, always need 252 HP EV's, and have crappy movepools, attack stats, and speed(not to mention lack of recovery moves, Moonlight and Pain Split dont count for me)

what do these guys actually DO anyways? they get hit TWICE, and then die, thats what ive seen
 
From the ones you've mentioned...

Burn, Sleep, Toxic, Trick Room, Reflect, Light Screen, Wish, Mean Look, Baton Pass, to name a few. From what you can see, they are mainly for team-supporting roles.
 
Stealth Rock, Bronzong explodes, Gyro Ball actually really hurts some pokes (Dragon Dancers especially).

Paint split is a great recovery move for Dusknoir, most of the time. And how is Moonlight not a recovery move? :-\
 
What is your point? Sure, most of the time "Mixed Walls" have one Defense stat a bit higher or stronger than the other. I think the Mixed Wall term applies to pokemon that can take certain kinds of hits, but prefer to take others. For example, Umbreon can take Physical hits and still survive, but she prefers to take Special Attacks.

Also, you mentioned how all "mixed walls" die in one or two hits. Welcome to the D/P metagame, my friend, where everything dies in one or two hits.
 
i asked because any time i see one used on youtube, or read about them in a warstory, they dont seem to do much offensively. i understand they are for utility and supporting roles, but it seems to me youd rather have slightly less bulky pokes that could actually kill stuff. and im only speaking on the mixed walls, i just dont see using them, what with most physical walls and Blissey fully able to dish out the damage just fine while defending, ntm what with it seems like a STAB 120 base move on most sweepers, i dont see mixed walls living too long

i excluded Cresselia because my friends and i ban any pokes with total stat 580+, except for Slaking
 
I'd bash bulky waters before I'd bash something like Bronzong. Bulky waters just don't have the same amount of key resistances and DP isn't as kind about allowing you to play defense on numbers alone. A resistance to water is nice but that doesn't help when you lack attacks that can take advantage of it to hit Gyarados. Bronzong or Dusknoir on the other hand have some nice resistances and immunities. Bronzong is immune or resistant to some of the most common attacks in the game and Dusknoir carries that handy immunity to normal moves aka Rapid Spin. Both carry great support moves (Hypnosis/Stealth Rock/Will-o) as well. You don't need a solid recovery move to be considered a wall and you also don't need to take all hits like a champ.. just certain specific ones. That's the whole reason you make a team of pokemon that cover each other's weaknesses.

Though you are right that mixed walls don't exist because on any of these pokemon, Cresselia included, you're going to focus on one defensive aspect over the other depending on specific team needs.
 
Sunsatzu said:
i excluded Cresselia because my friends and i ban any pokes with total stat 580+, except for Slaking
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That's part of your problem right there...playing with friends under homemade rulesets like that can screw things up. Cresselia is by far the best example of a mixed wall - it's not a major offensive threat (though it can hit the weaknesses of some pokemon pretty hard), but it can easily stall out and/or status other pokemon that come in.

i asked because any time i see one used on youtube, or read about them in a warstory, they dont seem to do much offensively. i understand they are for utility and supporting roles, but it seems to me youd rather have slightly less bulky pokes that could actually kill stuff.
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Offense isn't everything, that's basic pokemon knowledge. If your opponent can shut down your sweepers with T-wave, Toxic, etc, your team's power in general is greatly weakened. Just a simple status move like that can often reduce a pokemon to a nearly-useless state for the rest of the match.

I really don't understand what point you're trying to make, aside from "Mixed walls suck". And that point is pretty invalid - mixed walls won't go sweeping teams, but their support makes it possible for your other pokemon to sweep, and not get killed in the process.
 
First, Bronzong is essentially only weak to Fire (with Levitate). It resists 8 types, is immune to 2 (Ground with Levitate, as well as Poison), makes it a good choice for a wall.

Second, Bronzong's unique ability to have 300 Special Defense and Defense along with 338 HP, make it tough to take down in one hit.

Third, setting up Trick Room, a sub, Light Screen, Reflect, Sunny Day/Rain Dance, is infinitely helpful, especially when you're guaranteed to set it up (I've yet to see something that can OHKO Bronzong that isn't Fire).

Gyroball is really powerful, especially with DDancers, Agility/RP users and other generally fast pokemon.

Bronzong rocks.
 
Sunsatzu said:
what do these guys actually DO anyways? they get hit TWICE, and then die, thats what ive seen
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I think the problem is the way you're playing these pokemon, not because they are horrible at taking hits. I have yet to have any of the pokemon listed fail in walling what they are supposed to.

The Dusknoir I use on my trick room team (Fire Punch/Earthquake/Trick Room/Rest), for example, does an amazing job at walling Electivire and absorbing PP from pokemon in general (especially normal types), and the fact that I use Rest makes it all the more impervious.
 
NickPresta said:
Gyroball is really powerful, especially with DDancers, Agility/RP users and other generally fast pokemon.
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The most common DDer is Gyarados, who loves to set up on Bronzong. Zapdos is one of the best agility passers. Point being, Gyro Ball does no damage to things that resist it. It is more useful for Weavile and Gengar, and it won't OHKO gengar too often.
 
Dusknoir can be pretty damn amazing, actually. It's one of the pokemon mentioned that actually can throw out some half-decent offense without any investment, too. It's usually better EVed for one defense over the other, but it's nice to have something that can take a hit or two on the other side as well - something most other walls can't do.

Using a three attack (and Pain Split) version can be really successful, especially when you split something down within Shadow Sneak KO range. You can pick from his pretty good physical movepool for the other two slots to counter whatever you need. Wisp is alright, but a bit predictable and a bit inaccurate - though it's worth it if your team can handle flash fires and Heracross yet has trouble with other physical threats.
 
Hyra said:
The most common DDer is Gyarados, who loves to set up on Bronzong. Zapdos is one of the best agility passers. Point being, Gyro Ball does no damage to things that resist it. It is more useful for Weavile and Gengar, and it won't OHKO gengar too often.
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Bronzong fucks up Gyarados with Trick Room. Zapdos wouldn't like being in a Trick Room either.

I use a more offensive-oriented Bronzong with great success, and even if it isn't highly EV'd on HP and defenses, it can still take quite a lot of hits, set up Trick Room, and sweep, then Explode when everything is about to go down. Now imagine if I had it working was a pure Mixed Wall.

I have also fought countless Dusknoirs who can wall surprisingly well everything I throw at them, so I fail to see why "Mixed Walls" don't exist.
 
Last I checked my room has 4 walls and none of them have tried to jump out and attack me yet. However on the occasion I run into on it hurts me a lot more than it hurts it. I dread to think what would happen if the said wall was able to badly poison me or put me to sleep when I did that.

In short a wall isn't supposed to sweep, its supposed to take hits while doing something useful, then switch out.
 
In addition to what has been said already, I'd just like to point out that Dusknoir has a surpisingly respectable 100 base attack, which gets overlooked quite often. It doesn't hit hard, because of course you want to put most if not all of your EVs into defenses, but it can certainly do some damage. Ice and thunder punch on it make it a viable counter to Salamence and Gyarados, for example.
 
imo, the reason people use mixed walls, (or following your point, attempt to use them), is because it makes countering certain pokemon much safer.

For example, say you are facing a Salamence, and you don't know it's moveset yet. You could switch your Blissey in to take a predicted Specs'ed DM, but you could possibly eat ~80% from a CBDragon Claw. You could switch your Gliscor in to take a physical move, and right there lose your Gliscor to a Hydro Pump. Now if you don't like having to take that kind of risk, instead you can use a Cresselia or Dusknoir or something. They may prefer one type of Mence over another, but if it's the type they don't like as much, (as in you have a defensive Cress facing Specsmence), they won't just roll over and die like most dedicated special and physical walls will; they'll still do their job.

It's the same with lots of other possibly mixed attacks, like Infernape, Chainchomp, all sorts of stuff. In short, mixed walls are good counters to mixed sweepers
 
bronzong and cressy are hands down the best mix walls. cresselia is basically THE wall of this gen, and bronzong shuts down pokes with trick room+key resistances. owns gyrados with charge beam also. i dont know why you have the idea that mixed walls arent real...
 
Fishin said:
I really don't understand what point you're trying to make, aside from "Mixed walls suck".
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I think the problem here is he never even thought of or considered this.

Offense isn't everything, that's basic pokemon knowledge. If your opponent can shut down your sweepers with T-wave, Toxic, etc, your team's power in general is greatly weakened.
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Actually the opening post smells of a kid or newbie who thinks beatdown with no setup = perfect win. If that was the case than Pokemon would be a really dull game...
 
It depends what tier your using, I play BL and I can wall/tank quite easily with my Cradily, 97 def and 107sp. def is pretty damn good.

Cradily@leftovers
suction cups (really quite useful for spikes/SR roarers)
EQ
Grass Knot
Toxic
Recover

He takes bug and ice moves like a champ.
 
In short a wall isn't supposed to sweep, its supposed to take hits while doing something useful, then switch out.
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Because of the threat of ddancers, sdancers, cursers, etc, you can never afford to go without some form of offense.

You don't have to be a sweeper but you do need to promise that you'll at least TRY to get the opponent out or dead instead of just sponging and dying.
 
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