VGC 2016 Viability Rankings

[DragonWhale]

Funny how you guys don't understand the reason why Liepard is in A, higher ranked than in VGC 2015. When you have the best weather control in this meta (and yes, weather control is a big factor here for obvious reasons) and the fastest Fake Out, please tell me why it's not A. And yes, I'm saying Role Play is the best weather control in this meta. Aside from being able to activate the weather you want after your opponent switches into a Hoenn Trio, you also don't need to predict which pokemon your opponent is going to switch in the Hoenn Trio which is the case with Worry Seed, and Skill Swap is blocked by protect so you can't Protect your weather god and activate your preferred weather safely.

Also, Mega Rayquaza is A+. Not sure where this "Mega Rayquaza isn't that strong" trend is coming from, but it's just outright false. When you have the ability to outspeed all the ubers sans Mewtwo and Scarfmons and knock them out after very small prior damage, as well as forcing protects in a ton of situations, taking a uber and mega slot is just a scratch on its viability.

ScarfOgre is trash. Get over it. You require weather support from your teammate AND you lock yourself (not to mention you probably don't even get the rain boost in most situations)? Not even C+ worthy imo. Doesn't help that most teams carry twave either.

 

[Vengeance417]

Ho-Oh: B --> A
Ho-Oh is v good. It has a great mix of offenses and defenses, able to check Primal Don and Xerneas, and threaten physical attackers with a burn from Sacred Fire. What's more, it can provide speed control in the form of Tailwind. It's also a complete nuke under sun.

Kyogre: C+ --> B
w/ Air Lock/Cloud Nine support, ScarfOgre can actually mess up your opponent pretty bad.

While I agree with the Ho-Oh nom (it's a fucking God), normal Kyogre shouldn't move up because of a very predictable set that requires you to run Rayquaza as a teammate (no, I'm not counting Golduck. It's bad and imo, it shouldn't be ranked. People, please stop using that shit...)

 

[Serapis]

Update to Version 1.1:

S+ rank and S rank have been merged into one Rank
S- Rank is still a part of the tiering because of the differences in power of Xerneas, Primal Groudon and Mega-Kangashan as compared to everything else in the format, including Primal Kyogre.

Mega-Lopunny from A- to B+
Started a bit high, and is being dropped a rank by reasonably unanimous consensus. It might drop further, but for the moment it fits into B+ well enough.

Ho-Oh from B to A-
Ho-Oh has good stats and pairs well with Primal Groudon, not to mention does well against Xerneas and opposing Primal Groudon. It's only being moved to A- because Primal Groudon can carry Rock Slide, and as a Fire type it faces still competition from Primal Groudon unless you want to run Double Fire which is something to be wary of.

Landorus-I from A- to B+
Same story as Mega-Lopunny, except there is unanimous agreement on this one.

Mega-Lucario added to C+
Mega-Lucario is something that I forgot about during the initial post. Because of it's reasonably strong Steel priority and absurd Close Combats, it should fit comfortably into C+ for the moment.

For those confused about what this is, I'll be running this thread on a Version system. The initial post is Version 1.0, and each subsequent update will be 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, so on and so forth. Updates will be posted in the chat with this format detailing the changes that occurred during each update with a brief explanation as to the reasoning behind them. Updates will consist of at least 3 changes in terms of tiering (minor grammar corrections/formating changes to the initial post will not be counted as new Versions).

 

[Nelson Tangela]

Mega Kangaskhan is was listed twice.

 

[ck49]

I have yet to see a Mega-Gengar. I've seen plenty of normal Gengar, but I don't know if its Mega form should be so high when it doesn't do much the normal form does do. Shadow tag is great, but gengar gets KO'd by everything and letting yourself get hit by Precipitice blades (and earth power) doesn't seem like a great plan. Also, because you aren't trapping turn 1, opponents can switch out to a counter - unlike Gothitelle which traps their Kyogra/Groudon so you can KO it and win the weather war. Not saying M-Gengar isn't viable, but I don't know why its so high.

 

[Prof. Almeida]

Liepard is the best support Mon here. And I mean, the best. It's so fast and do so many things that it can outright win the game for you.

 

[Steven Stone]

I'm surprised at the lack of Meowstic-M on the rankings. As a Prankster mon, it already has an advantage over some Pokemon in the metagame. Now, to list some of the things Meowstic-M can do, here are some:

• Fake Out support is valuable for Xerneas, and that thing is a top tier threat. Meowstic's speed tier is also a really comfortable one, so you can literally click Fake Out with little Pokemon being able to outspeed you.
• Ok, so Charm is also relatively valuable in this metagame. Kangaskhan and physical Primal Groudon variants despise it, and it can shut down a lot of threats with it such as Ferrothorn and physical Mega Salamence.
• Prankster Thunder Wave is something Thundurus has, but if your team needs something to Prankster T-Wave that has access to Fake Out and doesn't stack up an Ice-type or Rock-type weakness, Meowstic-M is the big play. Meowstic-M can also be relatively faster than other Prankster, with a base 104 Speed only outsped by 3 prankster Pokemon: Whimsicott, Liepard, and Thundurus (this one is debatable, as many Thundurus now prefer bulk over speed, and i doubt we're going to see a Life Orb Thundurus becoming relevant in a tournament this early)
• The big one of the list is definitely Quick Guard. Mega Rayquaza's Extreme-Speed, Yveltal's Sucker Punch, Kangaskhan's Fake Out, Giratina-O's Shadow Sneak, you name it. This new metagame is full of threatening priority attacks, which makes Quick Guard valuable for some teams.
• Oh, and also. Did you know that Meowstic-M gives 0 fucks about Smeargle? Safeguard boys.

Well, that's some reasoning. As far as nomination goes, this thing should be C+ / B- because it's truly outclassed by some Pranksters like Whimsicott and Liepard, specially Liepard. Well, up to you guys to discuss Meowstic-M. This thing CANNOT be unranked, specially when it does the things mentioned above.

 

[nightwolf]

I always thought Meowstic-M was interesting but always seemed like an inferior choice of a prankster with sableye, klefki, and thundurus around. I do think it should be giving a ranking though as it does offer its own twist on support pranksters.

 

[Taliheim]

I have so many qualms with these rankings you have no idea.

Fact is, I can just simply choose to not use these rankings, but some of these are just too much for me, and I feel like I need to point them out.

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S-Rank
Reserved for the top threats in the VGC16 metagame. The Pokemon in this tier are able to perform multiple roles to tremendous effect, whilst having few to no flaws. Support Pokemon in this tier can easily create free turns for their teammates without creating clear openings for the opponent. Any flaws that these Pokemon have can be taken care of with little to no team support.
S Rank

S- Rank

I don't like the concept of sub S rankings, but that's just me. I approve of S rank so far.
A-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that function very well within the current VGC16 metagame. The Pokemon in this tier are either able to perform multiple roles to great effect, or execute one extremely well. Support Pokemon in this tier can create free turns, but not as easily as those in the S Rank.The flaws that the Pokemon in this tier may have are usually mitigated by their positive traits, or with minimal team support.
A+ Rank

I know that trapping is really cool now to lock in opposing Primals to keep them from resetting your preferred weather, but this isn't A+ material by far. I'd honestly go so far as to put it in B+. Still a really cool option, but not something I'd go to.

A Rank

What. A is vastly overselling what Crobat can do. Honestly, I'd put this in solid B at HIGHEST, saying that it doesn't even OHKO Xerneas with Cross Poison. This honestly seems to me to be a Poison-type Talonflame without priority and slightly higher base speed, which honestly doesn't matter. Unless your team really needs an answer to non-Xerneas Fairies (at least Talonflame can BB after a Geo, Crobat fails to outspeed after Xern sets up meaning it usually has one chance to hit it), I don't see much reason to use this over Talonflame.

I don't understand this. Yes, Prankster shenanigans. Yes, Fake Out. I still don't understand how this makes it A material as opposed to B.

My brain is telling me this should go in A+, but ranking it alongside MMence makes sense, and MMence is certainly A.

I, too, enjoy encouraging new players to use cancer. DV Smeargle has not gotten any better or worse than it has any other year, still a massive pain in the ass to face, and still the single Pokemon that labels you as a dick straight off of team preview. I'm not going to bash it's effectiveness, but let's put this in A- or B+, if only to keep randoms from using it.

Prankster Taunt is fantastic for shutting down Xern, deals with POgre pretty well, otherwise still just as good as it was last year. I'd support a raise.
A- Rank

This is not A-. I don't care if you put this in A or A+, but A- is simply underselling it. A Dragon-type that beats Fairies is amazing, and it's easily one of the best Trick Room setters in the game, rivaling even Cresselia. At least it actually has some powerful offense to back it up, which Cress can't attest to.

Ferrothorn certainly got much better in '16, but A- is simply too high. Gets roasted by PDon, still has the same troubles that plagued it before, except not there's only one relevant water-type to hit instead of multiple (granted, that one is about even in terms of Ferro's viability). B+.

Ho-Oh just has too much competition with Talonflame. It's cool a a much better Xerneas answer, and its Fire STAB is more spammable (and non-suicidal!), and stays around for longer, but loses out on extremely important priority, as well as taking up a Restricted slot. B+, maybe B but leaning towards B+.

Um, what? Intimidate is still really good, and now inhibits Physical PDon as well. Speaking of which, Landog hits PDon super-effectively, and can U-Turn into a Rayquaza or POgre in the back to really ruin its day. I'd say it's viability is only slightly neutered in '16. A at least, could see it going A+.

Seemingly good typing does it no favors in a metagame filled to the brim with Dragons and Fairies. Looks really cool (I actually want to use it at some point), but A- is too good for it. I'd put it in one of the B subrankings, not sure which one.

B-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that fit well in the VGC16 metagame, but they have notable flaws that prevent them from filling their role to the fullest extent. The Pokemon in this tier are either predictable, require some team support to work to its full potential, or are at disadvantageous match-ups against some common threats. The flaws that the Pokemon in this tier have are mostly mitigated by their positive traits.
B+ Rank

This looks a tad high to me, but I have no experience playing with or against it, so I'll refrain from commenting.

Uh... could someone explain this to me? I mean, yeah, it's fast and has great offensive STABs, but what does it honestly have over M-Kang instead of Speed? After You?

Rank with M-Ray. You WILL be running Dragon Ascent on ray, and simply doing so will allow it to mega-evolve, meaning you're playing with M-Ray even if you're using it for its base form. I'd rank both on the same row (like, Rayquaza (+ Mega)) just because they're so analogous.

Terrible meta call at the moment. Steel-type moves are being thrown around like crazy, immunity to Precipice Blades isn't useful since it nullifies Follow Me, PDon can still hit it with Rock Slide. Sure, Xern might be able to get a Geo off, but sooner or later people are going to realize that their answer to Xern needs to be AFTER a Geo, not before, although prevention is still a good thing to have on a team. Looks enticing with Xern, especially with Fairy Aura shenanigans, but I'm honestly not seeing it. I'd actually go so far as to put this in D. C is probably fine too, though.

B+? What does this thing's STABs hit? Cress, MRay, MMence, that's it? It's higher Speed is unneeded, seems really cool but doesn't at all pull its weight. D.

B Rank

Read: Togekiss.

Read: Togekiss.

This needs to go all the way up to Giratina-O, is bulkier and can actually run an item like Sitrus, hardwalls M-Kang, wisps everything. Still has Gira-O's typing but with bulk that makes Cresselia jealous. I guess I'd be fine with this being one subrank lower than Gira-O, but this low is a crime.

Again, please explain this ranking to me. Hydration shenanigans with POgre? that's all I really see, and I shouldn't need to explain why that gimmick is not worth a ranking, let alone B.

Seems really cool, actually. My gut is saying to move this down to B-, but not to underestimate it. I guess it's fine here.

B- Rank

What. The. Fuck. DRAGONITE is a bigger threat than this thing. I mean, WHAT? what kind of niche could this thing possibly have? I am actually seeing 0.

Really cool option, but not B-, too frail for what it does. C+ looks good for it.

How is this not in A-/B+? 2HKOs PDon with Grass Knot, pairs EXTREMELY well with Kyogre (think a better politoed), hits a lot of the metagame for a lot. Scald burns are cool too, but the main thing is how well it works with POgre + how well it functions vs. PDon.

My gut is saying B/B+ due to its Cress-like bulk + speed control, and also has the really cool option of CM (has EP to hit PDon).

I /guess/ I could see this? I meant, see it in C. B- is too high. Looks cool in this meta, though.

Read: Ludicolo. Also, Sleep Powder to shut down the popular Trick Room and ability to almost OHKO POgre is super cool, and fast sleep is amazing in and of itself. Oh, and fast Sludge Bomb for Xern.
C-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that can work okay within the VGC16 metagame. However, they either have crippling flaws that prevent consistent performance or require much team support to work on most teams. Pokemon that have a few niches in the metagame but are mainly outclassed by higher-ranked Pokemon also belong here.
C+ Rank

Read: Chansey

Not reliable enough. Simple as that. Cool in theory, not in practice.

This still hits really fucking hard, and has Flash Cannon for Fairies. I'd put this in B, powerful Earth Power and ability to outspeed Primals (unfortunately needs Scarf to outspeed max timid Xern) is cool too.

Should be two subranks below Ludicolo, hits stupidly hard and can nuke PDon switches with Draco Meteor but overall has a harder time.

Lower, Kyub only has Electric coverage over KyuW and doesn't hit as hard. This would be good without the existence of KyuW and restrictions, but is honestly a D pick now.

First: This is the one with an O. Get it right. Second: This is AMAZING right now. Water resist, Fire resist, Ground immunity not weak to Rock, nukes the Primals, can hit POgre with Thunder, can reliably run Tailwind (which has gotten better in '16), 2HKOs Xern with Psyshock, lives a +2 252 Xern DGleam with Roseli Berry, outspeeds M-Ray on its MEvo turn and nukes it into oblivion, does so to MMence as well but even after a MEvo. A easily, if not A+.

First: This is the one with an A. Get it right. Second: Latias brings extremely little to the table that Latios doesn't and misses out on the Psyshock 2HKO on Xern. D, if it's even ranked at all.

I don't see the reasoning behind this...? explain.

I know what this does and I know why people think it's good. I agree, but I also think these are ranked too high. C or C-.

See above

No comment, no experience with or against

... Sure, it loses to PDon, but Grass Knot is a cool option, PDon is hit neutrally by Zen Headbutt, and resists all the Dragons running around, as well as beating the increasingly popular Fairies bar MMaw (and even then, MMaw's hit by EQ if you want to run that). B+ or B, I'm not 100% sold on A- but wouldn't look out of place there.

No change from '15, don't see how this is ranked so high. Prankster Quash + WoW is cool though. C-.

B, it's the same viability it was in '15. Loses to PDon, but has more Hyper Voice fodder in the restricted Dragons. Its speed is a real shame, though, which is why it's in B and not A- or A.

NOT. ABOVE. BRELOOM. Cool STABs and great vs. rain, but being put above Breloom is a tragedy. C.
C Rank

Dark might be nerfed, but Intimidate still exists, and Steel has if anything been buffed. I'd want to see it in B+, although B or maybe even B- could work.

B, gets wrecked by PDon but has a good matchup against M-Kang and POgre, and can Spore PDon and other problematics after they hit Loom's Sash (LO loom is terribad). Priority is also nice. Not B since Flying-type moves have been buffed + got more popular.

C-, same old, same old. Now if you could Imposter your OWN primal, that's another thing entirely. But alas.

Scarf is cool, I was going to nom this to C- but I'm having second thoughts.

Works well with rain...? Again, seems like a cool option, but it doesn't add up. D if not unranked.

Eh, I'd put this higher but I see the reasoning.

C- Rank
Show (close)

No. No. No. Earth Power is a thing to hit PDon, POgre is a thing but Tran still has all the perks as before. Definitely an A subrank, I'd go with A- due to POgre existing.

Explain? like, what does this do aside from nuke things? It has low bulk, is slow, and granted nukes hard from the special side unlike M-Kang but when is that ever going to come into play, or make up for its lack of stats in other places?

Loses to PDon, POgre, metagame is extremely physical right now. Yes, loses to Pdon, Ground STAB isn't enough. D.

See: Rhydon. Hits PDon harder though.

In singles, I could see it. Not in doubles. Unrank.

​

D-Rank

Many niche Pokemon can be squeezed into VGC16 teams due to a certain move or ability (niche Wide Guard or Intimidate users, for example). Many Pokemon fit here, but none of them have a place in the metagame solid enough to have a special spot on the rankings.​

D Rank

The only 'mons I see here that actually make sense to me are Malt, Jellicent, and Suicune, and maybe M-Zor and M-Amph but that's pushing it. Everything else just seems plain unviable to me.

 

[Serapis]

Okay, two initial thoughts Talenheim . First, you made quite the extensive post, and it's not realistically something that can be covered all at once. For that reason, if in future post you could restrict yourself to commenting on the tiering of 4 Pokemon at most that would be appreciated so you don't overload the chat with information that's dropped from the discussion. Second, your "qualms" about these rankings. It should go without saying that they are imperfect; I did make them in a single night so that they could be uploaded quickly and we could start the discussion straight off, and since they there has been only one official update. While the point of this thread is to express the issues you have with the current tiering list, there's no need to be overly insulting about it.

What. The. Fuck. DRAGONITE is a bigger threat than this thing. I mean, WHAT? what kind of niche could this thing possibly have? I am actually seeing 0.

Well, I guess you did have a question in there. So, I'll answer it. Chansey is all about Team Support, and it's actually decent at it. Helping Hand allows it to deal damage vicariously through it's team mates, and it can ensure that they manage to get attacks off by using it's speed control options in Thunder Wave or Icy Wind. Chansey is also one of only a few viable Toxic users in VGC, which allows it to beat bulky setup Pokemon, most namely Calm Mind users like Lugia and Cresselia. It just generally does well against special attackers, with Xerneas and Primal Kyogre finding themselves in a bit of trouble against it. Look at this:

252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Heavy Rain: 129-153 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (if you're curious, Origin Pulse is a 4HKO)

+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 153-180 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

Impressively enough, +2 Xerneas Moonblast can actually 2HKO 1.2% of the time. Of course, that assumes Xerneas is both Modest and running max special attack, and even then just running 20 SpD EVs makes the attack a 3HKO 100% of the time. Do remember that Chansey gets Soft-Boiled, which means that Chansey 1v1s two of the S Rank Pokemon. With all of that said, is Chansey good? Eh. . . somewhat. However, to quote what you said:

what kind of niche could this thing possibly have? I am actually seeing 0.

You didn't see any niche because you didn't look for any niche. It's a Pokemon that usually hasn't seen success in VGC, so you seem to have assumed that it was bad. Even if that isn't what happened, the point remains that you started demanding a tiering change based off of your own uneducated assumptions, which is something to be heavily discouraged. It's not just here though.

No. No. No. Earth Power is a thing to hit PDon, POgre is a thing but Tran still has all the perks as before. Definitely an A subrank, I'd go with A- due to POgre existing.

I'm legitimately uncertain how to start here. Earth Power is a thing to hit Primal Groudon? I actually did that calc and it does some pretty impressive damage, however it's not the KO it needs to be. Especially considering that Primal Groudon outspeeds (even if you're running Timid Heatran and your opponent has an Adamant or Modest Primal Groudon) and OHKOes Heatran, even through Shuca Berry.

252 Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Heatran: 186-222 (111.3 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Primal Groudon Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Shuca Berry Heatran: 164-194 (98.2 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

You also lose to Mega-Kangaskhan, as always. Low Kick gets the quick OHKO, whereas Power-Up Punch sets up on you before nabbing the KO turn two. We both seem to know that Primal Kyogre beats Heatran, but that's not the end of it. Xerneas outspeeds Heatran, which means that it gets Geomancy off before you can attack. Because of that, even if you have Flash Cannon, you lose the 1v1 100% of the time against HP Ground Xerneas, which is pretty much all of them. Choice Specs and Life Orb variants of Heatran that can 2HKO Xerneas get OHKOed by HP Ground, the Scarf set can't pick up the KO before Geomancy and Shuca sets can't outspeed or 2HKO Xerneas.

We're not quite done here though, because Heatran now has competition as a bulky Fire type. Why run Heatran over Primal Groudon? If you are running Primal Groudon, why dedicate another teamslot to Heatran and double up on Fire types? Sun Modes are cool and all I guess, however the returns simply aren't enough to justify the double up in a format where your opponent will either have their own Primal Groudon to Earth Power/Precipice Blades you or a Primal Kyogre to Water Spout/Origin Pulse them both off of the field. So, since you're not running both what does Heatran have over Groudon? Well, it might be able to do something on Trick Room teams with a Life Orb to abuse it's reasonable STAB coverage, but that's a small niche at best, especially considering how much Taunt is thrown around in this meta and:

252+ SpA Life Orb Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 161-192 (92 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

that even with max special attack and a Life Orb you don't get the 100% OHKO on Primal Groudon. That's also assuming no bulk on Primal Groudon whatsoever, which isn't something you can safely assume considering the Primal Groudon calc above. I honestly considered leaving Heatran out of this tiering list entirely, and considering all of the reasons above Heatran can't even dream of being in the A Ranks.

Well, that was quite a bit. And I only covered two of the Pokemon you brought up. I'll see about going over some of the other ones tomorrow night (probably Crobat, not quite sure what else. Maybe Smeargle). As I said earlier though, please do try to limit your posts in the future to more managable sizes, and please actually think before posting and include that through process so that we can have a more developed discussion around the Pokemon in question.

 

[Pyritie]

Chansey is all about Team Support, and it's actually decent at it. Helping Hand allows it to deal damage vicariously through it's team mates, and it can ensure that they manage to get attacks off by using it's speed control options in Thunder Wave or Icy Wind. Chansey is also one of only a few viable Toxic users in VGC, which allows it to beat bulky setup Pokemon, most namely Calm Mind users like Lugia and Cresselia. It just generally does well against special attackers, with Xerneas and Primal Kyogre finding themselves in a bit of trouble against it. Look at this:

I don't see what makes chansey special either. Tons of other not-shit pokemon learn those same moves. Cresselia, Clefable (has unaware to ignore geomancy), Gardevoir, Lati@s, and even Nidoking/queen get them. Chansey just sits there and does fuckall else while its teammates get picked off.

Chansey to E rank. The only thing it does well is piss people off with minimize spam.

 

[Steven Stone]

1)Smeargle's also fucking useless loses to Taunt. Please for the love of god unrank these motherfuckers.

Smeargle isn't useless AT ALL. In fact, i've been speaking with another VGC players about this issue and they seem to be pretty pissed off by the fact that Dark Void Scarf Smeargle is here. Let me clarify:

• VGC'16 speed tiers are set below VGC'15, that's for sure. Pokemon can, with some luck, hit over 100 base speed but those Pokemon are most of the time pretty unviable or they just prefer to invest in bulk to adapt to this really hyper offensive metagame (look at Thundurus) (or they are Mega Ray and Mega Mence and don't give an actual fuck).
• Quick Guard already nullifies any Fake Out or Prankster Taunt effort that the player might use to exert pressure over Smeargle, which means that if a Quick Guard user is with Smeargle you're in for pain. Yeah, as straight as it sounds.
• Xerneas + Smeargle leads are literally making people lose their heads. Who do i Fake Out? Who do i Taunt? These situations are over the limit and they cannot be ignored by smart players. Having these 2 together are a pain, so let's look at the rest of the team. Let's say i have an ideal lead matchup vs these two, which would be my Lum Berry Ferrothorn and my Fake Out, really fast Kangaskhan. I see this in team preview, just that with a Primal Groudon and another Pokemon that gives Kang trouble (for fuck's sake, let's say another Mega Kang or even Landorus-T. It could pretty well be another Ferrothorn tbh). What do i lead? Is it safe to lead with these 2 when i know that the lead could fail completely? How do i counter-react to this? And if Smeargle is in the back? What if i lose Thundurus too early and i can't beat Smeargle? What if i conserve Thundurus healthy for the end-game, just to find out my opponent's last Pokemon is Primal Groudon? These situations make Smeargle a pressuring force SINCE THE TEAM PREVIEW, often leading the player to think Smeargle being in the lead while he leads with what would be the counter for the anti-Smeargle lead. Oh, and let's mention that some teams already click x versus Smeargle, too.

The downside of Smeargle is how luck reliant it is, but buying an extra free turn for Xerneas is just what it might need to completely destroy teams. Smeargle isn't a Pokemon that can be looked down in this new format. Not at all.

 

[Taliheim]

As for Heatran, I wasn't thinking that Heatran could straight-up 1v1 PDon, it still certainly loses to it. My point was that it wasn't complete deadweight, which is what I assumed was the main reason relegating it to C. The set in my head is actually the standard Substitute set, and the calc I had in my head is this:
252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 124-148 (70.8 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And honestly, it doesn't need to OHKO; it leaves PDon at 30% max, which is not exactly hard to chip off. And as for the "why use Tran" argument, two things. The first is that Heatran sports extra resistances, namely Dragon, Quad resisting Fairy, Flying, Grass, and Normal. (think of it not as a bulky Fire but a bulky Steel, with Fire being the secondary typing.) The second is that it doesn't take up a restriction slot, and can fit on M-Ray + Pogre teams, while PDon doesn't appreciate having its weather nullified at all. (It fits on POgre teams because Water-type moves are rare outside POgre itself, Water-type moves are pretty rare, meaning that it's perfectly content under Rain.) I see where you're coming from, though, in that it loses to a lot of high-tier Pokemon. I would still say it deserves B+, though, since outside of those admittedly crucial matchups it does its job really well.

I also wasn't expecting my entire post to be responded to at once, and instead used as a platform for other people to make nominations. Honestly, of the list, the only nominations I really care about are the more drastic ones; the ones that change one subranking can honestly go unnoticed and I'll be pretty much fine. I know that moderating something like this is a massive responsibility, trying to handle that many nominations is simply impossible. You just pick what looks ripe and go with it.

(And sorry if I came off as arrogant in my original post, I tend to do that when I'm not watching what I'm saying even if I don't mean it.)

edit: have a banner http://i.imgur.com/V8UwsT7.png

 

[DragonWhale]

Why would you run 252HP/4SpD instead of 252SpD on Chansey. Unless you're hitting a certain physical benchmark there's no reason not to go 252Def/252SpD on Chansey.

Also, since a lot of people don't seem know that this format existed 10 months ago, here's the link to the usage stats and battle videos of top ranking players of that competition: http://3ds.pokemon-gl.com/competitions/4022/

 

[_LightCore]

I would very much appreciate it if the people who are posting in this thread would actually play VGC, learn the 2016 metagame, and realize some of its problems. A lot of the people who are posting in here, not going to name names as to not start direct arguments, don't seem to have ever played past the 1200 mark on showdown or even played at a real event. Pokemon such as Smeargle are actually good in this format due to the amount of viable team mates and how much easier it is to use in this format. Please refrain from getting angry, calling people stupid, or making bad posts as they are just plainly unhelpful and quite honestly stupid. Getting angry doesn't add to the discussion, and insult others intelligence and how well they know the game doesn't actually add anything to the discussion. I love how people think they know VGC when it's quite obvious they've never played. :)

 

[NOVED]

Honestly I think it's too early to even be tiering pokemon accurately, everything is still basically theorymon. The meta has just barely been around for a week, there haven't been any official or notable tournaments, and the only thing we have to base off is PS(which isn't good). You can't really call anyone out on not knowing their shit because nobody is well versed with this meta.

Also, i realize you just joined yesterday so you might not know this yet. But all viability rankings have people posting who may not be too knowledgable. It happens for metas that are young and metas that are ages old. There's no point in calling it out or even trying to shoo them away because it's literally inevitable. If someone says something that's clearly bad or very questionable, the best thing to do is just go over their points and tell them why it's bad, not just say "go play VGC you don't know what you're saying".

 

[_LightCore]

Honestly I think it's too early to even be tiering pokemon accurately, everything is still basically theorymon. The meta has just barely been around for a week, there haven't been any official or notable tournaments, and the only thing we have to base off is PS(which isn't good). You can't really call anyone out on not knowing their shit because nobody is well versed with this meta.

Also, i realize you just joined yesterday so you might not know this yet. But all viability rankings have people posting who may not be too knowledgable. It happens for metas that are young and metas that are ages old. There's no point in calling it out or even trying to shoo them away because it's literally inevitable. If someone says something that's clearly bad or very questionable, the best thing to do is just go over their points and tell them why it's bad, not just say "go play VGC you don't know what you're saying".

Looking back on it I agree here. I've always been a big advocate for "think before you say," as it is generally helpful and gets your point across better. I just wish that people would actually understand what is good and has been preforming well online before making dumb posts, but I understand that it will happen.

I guess I have very hard views and points because of how deep I think about the metagame as well as what usually will preform well at live events. As an almost worlds competitor (6 CP short in 2015 iirc) as well as having top cut Philly regionals two years in a row, I usually think through things very thoroughly and think about how well they will and have been preforming in the metagame.

 

[R-B-Y]

Yknow I came up with the idea that the seperate rankings should be merged. -_-. Anyway, nice thread, although I think kang should be a bit lower.

 

[tennisace]

let's all chill ok?

ok.

ps: crobat is way too high for what it does :^)

 

[Arcticblast]

Thundurus is way too high. It actually loses to both Primals (unless you're running like Specs Thunder for POgre - bulky Thund gets outdamaged), doesn't cripple Xerneas as much as it should due to the deer's natural bulk and +2 from Geomancy, and just can't take hits well enough or dish them out enough in this meta. It checks Ray and Mence but still takes a buttload from both of them while not really beating either one, and it's not like Cress doesn't do a better job of that anyway with TR and Ice Beam. (Ray is rare on PS so far anyway.)

Supporting Crobat for a drop too and nominating Noivern to be one rank below (does pretty much the same thing minus Inner Focus, but Draco Meteor kind of hurts stuff).

 

[R-B-Y]

I would very much appreciate it if the people who are posting in this thread would actually play VGC, learn the 2016 metagame, and realize some of its problems. A lot of the people who are posting in here, not going to name names as to not start direct arguments, don't seem to have ever played past the 1200 mark on showdown or even played at a real event. Pokemon such as Smeargle are actually good in this format due to the amount of viable team mates and how much easier it is to use in this format. Please refrain from getting angry, calling people stupid, or making bad posts as they are just plainly unhelpful and quite honestly stupid. Getting angry doesn't add to the discussion, and insult others intelligence and how well they know the game doesn't actually add anything to the discussion. I love how people think they know VGC when it's quite obvious they've never played. :)

I went to Nats and a pc, and actually did quite well. In Australia, at least. LOLOlOL
( what are some good tmates for smeargle, and how is it easier to use? Im thinking of using it)

 

[Haruno]

Aegis => B-/C

You lose to every uber used (yes this includes xern) bar ridiculous amount of predictions which makes it unreliable as fuck. That in itself is awful since you can't have a mon that auto loses to half of your opponents team into a match and it's really hard to justify bringing it.

Just eyeballing S and A ranks you lose to literally everything except for Kanga and cress and those mons just aren't worth justifying the usage of aegislash.

Mawile => B- same boat as aegis but it also costs the mega slot and still sucks ass against common threats bar Kanga/cress/brobat/liepard and pretty hard to justify using over Ray/Kanga/mence etc also sucks ass against pogre and pdon especially zzz

Yveltal => B wtf does this even do. Why would you run it over xern/Ray/pdon/pogre

Ho-oh => B read yveltal description.

 

[Haruno]

Also every mega besides Kanga/mence/Ray/mawile/gengar => unviable. Lopunny sucks. SWAMPERT sucks. Mewtwo sucks. Lucario sucks. Why are these even considered even usable Bruh

 

[ck49]

Aegis => B-/C

You lose to every uber used (yes this includes xern) bar ridiculous amount of predictions which makes it unreliable as fuck. That in itself is awful since you can't have a mon that auto loses to half of your opponents team into a match and it's really hard to justify bringing it.

Just eyeballing S and A ranks you lose to literally everything except for Kanga and cress and those mons just aren't worth justifying the usage of aegislash.

If EV'd correctly Aegislash can survive a +2 moonblast/HP ground and either KO back with Gyro Ball or KO with Iron Head + Shadow Sneak. It's also the most viable wide guard user, and with moonblast, origin pulse, and precipitace blades everywhere, that's very valuable.

 

[Haruno]

If EV'd correctly Aegislash can survive a +2 moonblast/HP ground and either KO back with Gyro Ball or KO with Iron Head + Shadow Sneak. It's also the most viable wide guard user, and with moonblast, origin pulse, and precipitace blades everywhere, that's very valuable.

???? does it live it in blade form? (hint protect makes aegis' life hell and makes it almost unusable as a reliable xern check) What do you even mean by viable? By viable do you mean, I get wide guard and still suck against everything? Since if so, then yes aegis does that job very well. Not to mention that with the surging popularity of special pdon (hint wide guard doesn't stop earth power) and aegis spamming wide guard is easily exploitable, makes me question your general knowledge of the metagame. Hell let's use the Braverius blog where he looked at the top 25 teams on ladder at some point and see how aegis fares against them.

http://braverius.blogspot.com.au/

1. pdon/pogre/landoge/gengar/talon. All 5 of these either immensely pressure/beat aegis rather easily or abuse it to death. THe only mon even remotely threatened is kanga. Next.
2. ray/pogre/aegis/shed/golduck/landoge. Absolutely nothing on the team is threatened by aegis outside of shedinja (non soaked) and aegislash itself! But aegis beating aegis comes down to some bullshit like speed creep/rolls/coinflips so i'll disregard that. Though regardless, 4 maybe 5 of the mons still solidly beat it. Next
3. Xern/yveltal/brobat/mence/lando-i/kanga. You have aegis getting ass fucked by the likes of yveltal/mence/lando-i. Set up bait for brobat (it also gets taunt! Which is commonly used and a blade form aegis that can't use a status move is a dead aegis). Xern itself wins as long as it wins some protect 50-50 bs to get aegis in blade form or whatnot. Again kanga is still the only thing that aegis can feasibly beat on the team, and maybe xern but it's still immensely pressured and forced to win a fuck ton of coinflips to put in work.
4. pdon/xern/kiss/kanga/bat/cress. Aegis actually puts in work here. K 1/4 so far. Next
5. xern/pdon/weavile/cress/amoong/mence Aegis is useless against weavile/pdon/amoong/mence and can only put in some work against cress (but still not really stopping it from doing its role of reseting weather or setting up tr jajaja. And again back to fun coinflips against xern.

Tired af and gotta weak up in like 5 hours but I'll get to more points later. Overall, aegis is fucking shit and has minimal place in this metagame. Then again I don't really know why I'm taking this viability thread seriously when we have shitmons like talon/aegis/thundurs/hooh/landot/PALKIA LOL among other bad mons up in A rank.