nicholascookie
Banned deucer.
Don't forget HP Ground, the move choice of People Who Actually Have Brains™
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VGC 2016 Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Serapis
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I know you said to have a real convo instead of talking about properly calc'ing Gyro Ball, but you gotta change that speed to 0 on Aegislash.
This is what you're looking at if you run Brave with speed IV of 0 against a Xerneas with a modest nature and having zero investment in speed. This is not a realistic spread for xern, but it just shows that Aegislash does indeed OHKO with Gyro Ball
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (102 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 222-264 (109.9 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO.
Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
In the end this calc will probably be outdated since we all know Xerneas won't be running max speed max special attack meaning it doesn't get the OHKO most of time depending on whatever benchmark Xerneas wants.
edit: I stole these benchmarks from someone but I don't remember their name sorry :/
Modest Xerneas with 164 Spe EVs can outspeed Jolly Smeargle pre-Geomancy.
with 188, it can outspeed neutral Natured Primals.
From my earlier post: 12 Spe EVs lets Xerneas outspeed +1 +nature Kyurem-W and Rayquaza after a Geomancy.
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Okay lets just settle this once and for all. These are calcs with the correct Aegislash set with minimum Speed IVs and max Attack Brave, against a +2 Xerneas without any Speed investment whatsoever, so any Xern with more Speed takes even more:
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (102 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 222-264 (110.4 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (102 BP) vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 222-264 (100 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (102 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 222-264 (99.5 - 118.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
That is how much you need to not get OHKOed 100% of the time, and this is the investment you need on Xern to be guaranteed to survive:
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Gyro Ball (102 BP) vs. 44 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 174-206 (84 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I don't want to see more of these Gyro Ball calc posts now, long story short if you aren't crazy with your Xern investment Gyro Ball against a Geomancy boosted Xerneas kills
Serapis
Losing my way to Victory
Now let's do Iron Ball Aegislash Calcs. . . lol
In seriousness though, I'll be updating to version 1.2 either tomorrow or Tuesday. With that said, what tier do you all thing Aegislash should be in? This will be an official vote. Your options are: A+, A, A- and B+. Any other votes will not be counted at this time.
As for having a single S Rank, I'm not sure. If you all want it then I'll make the change, but should that occur Primal Kyogre would almost certainly drop down into the A range. Probably A+ to begin with, but the bottom line is that I can't in good conscious tell people that Primal Kyogre is as good as Primal Groudon. Spoiler: it isn't. So, what do you all thing would be best regarding the formatting of S Rank?
Finally, some people have pointed out mons to be added to the list. Mega-Gardevoir and Sylveon are two of the Pokemon that will be added in version 1.2. What are some other Pokes I missed that you think should be added? If you suggest a Pokemon and a tier, please give a line or two of elaboration.
In seriousness though, I'll be updating to version 1.2 either tomorrow or Tuesday. With that said, what tier do you all thing Aegislash should be in? This will be an official vote. Your options are: A+, A, A- and B+. Any other votes will not be counted at this time.
As for having a single S Rank, I'm not sure. If you all want it then I'll make the change, but should that occur Primal Kyogre would almost certainly drop down into the A range. Probably A+ to begin with, but the bottom line is that I can't in good conscious tell people that Primal Kyogre is as good as Primal Groudon. Spoiler: it isn't. So, what do you all thing would be best regarding the formatting of S Rank?
Finally, some people have pointed out mons to be added to the list. Mega-Gardevoir and Sylveon are two of the Pokemon that will be added in version 1.2. What are some other Pokes I missed that you think should be added? If you suggest a Pokemon and a tier, please give a line or two of elaboration.
Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
Aegislash ---> A-
I think there should only one S rank. I mean it isn't like we prep for Kyogre any less then we do Groudon.
Crawdaunt ---> D
lol adaptibility Knock Off is a god send on some trick room teams and especially when they have Yveltal out. plus Waterfall / Crabhammer does a hell of a lot. But like the defination of a D rank it shouldn't be considered on a real team.
Mega Venusaur ---> like C ish
just because weather can kind of screw this thing up a bit doesn't stop it from hitting common non legends pretty hard or just being a pretty useful tank.
I think there should only one S rank. I mean it isn't like we prep for Kyogre any less then we do Groudon.
Crawdaunt ---> D
lol adaptibility Knock Off is a god send on some trick room teams and especially when they have Yveltal out. plus Waterfall / Crabhammer does a hell of a lot. But like the defination of a D rank it shouldn't be considered on a real team.
Mega Venusaur ---> like C ish
just because weather can kind of screw this thing up a bit doesn't stop it from hitting common non legends pretty hard or just being a pretty useful tank.
Sableye should be moved to B- or B. It is a great PDon partner. Role play brings back your weather. Gravity helps Precipice Blade hit everything (no more immunities) with greater accuracy. Fake out gives all of the hard hitters an extra turn to dish out damage or setup. Quash is great because you can almost guarantee the outspeed regardless of other speedcontrol. Willo neuters physical attackers like Kang and Ray.
Now, he does a case of 4MS and you have to invest a lot into bulk to survive hits. Without a hard hitting physical attacker as a partner, Sableye can't support its teamates to take out Xerneas. He is taunt bait without mental herb.
Although he has glaring flaws, Sableye provides great support and I am sure that I missed some other traits of his that make him shine.
Now, he does a case of 4MS and you have to invest a lot into bulk to survive hits. Without a hard hitting physical attacker as a partner, Sableye can't support its teamates to take out Xerneas. He is taunt bait without mental herb.
Although he has glaring flaws, Sableye provides great support and I am sure that I missed some other traits of his that make him shine.
nicholascookie
Banned deucer.
Aegishit to B+, but please for the love of god make it B-
Can we move parasect down, i see little to no reason on it's uses as it's niche in Wide Guard is almost as effectively blocked by taunt users as Amoongus, and it's uses in outside of teaming with Kyogre are also highly limited even receaving just as horrific damage from protecting 1 turn against Primal Groundon.
Preferably down to C+ or C-
(PS:Aegilsash to B+ but unrelated to this post)
Preferably down to C+ or C-
(PS:Aegilsash to B+ but unrelated to this post)
I also think it should be A-. As Yugi said, it's able to check very important threats while also having the benefits of Wide Guard in a metagame where spread moves are in every match.
Guys, if Aegislash is "bad" in Trick Room: we have this thing called Lagging Tail. If it wants to attack last with absolutely 0 regard for TR, it's not that hard to do and Aegislash isn't overly dependant on an item.
Yes, it loses to Pdon's Overheat and +2 Xern and whatnot; but considering those two curbstomp THE ENTIRE FUCKING METAGAME is it really enough reason to drop something straight to B~?
Has issues with Pdon, Xern (I guess?), Yveltal, Ho-Oh (unless you have Head Smash and an Occa Berry but let's be serious), and even Lord Zygarde; but can take on The Khan, MegaMence, and Mawile pretty reliably while, at worst, posing enough threat to Xerneas that it simply cannot ignore you. Plus Aegislash is pretty decent against a fairly good chunk of the non-Uber metagame as we saw in VGC15.
Not played the meta yet but I don't see what makes Aegislash so damn bad. Primordial Sea Ferrothorn sounds fun though.
Just keep it where it is, seems fine. If it gets to the point that it just drags its ass in 2/3 battles and gets no respectable regionals performance, sure, drop it to B. For now... the meta doesn't even officially exist yet. What's bad and what's good is in an infant stage on PS, rankings are pretty volatile.
Yes, it loses to Pdon's Overheat and +2 Xern and whatnot; but considering those two curbstomp THE ENTIRE FUCKING METAGAME is it really enough reason to drop something straight to B~?
Has issues with Pdon, Xern (I guess?), Yveltal, Ho-Oh (unless you have Head Smash and an Occa Berry but let's be serious), and even Lord Zygarde; but can take on The Khan, MegaMence, and Mawile pretty reliably while, at worst, posing enough threat to Xerneas that it simply cannot ignore you. Plus Aegislash is pretty decent against a fairly good chunk of the non-Uber metagame as we saw in VGC15.
Not played the meta yet but I don't see what makes Aegislash so damn bad. Primordial Sea Ferrothorn sounds fun though.
Just keep it where it is, seems fine. If it gets to the point that it just drags its ass in 2/3 battles and gets no respectable regionals performance, sure, drop it to B. For now... the meta doesn't even officially exist yet. What's bad and what's good is in an infant stage on PS, rankings are pretty volatile.
LJDarkrai
.Baril
I think Aegislash should be A-. It can check a lot of threats in this meta thanks to its typing + stats, wide guard is also very good against common spread moves such as Pblades, origin pulse etc. However aegislash is passive and is forced to run gyro ball otherwise it isn't capable of checking xerneas. It's walled by both primal forms as well.
Palkia should move down to B+. It's a decent Primal Kyogre check but what else can it do on a metagame in which Pdon and Xerneas are so dominant? There are also other more viable options in a trick room team than Palkia is, in my opinion.
Palkia should move down to B+. It's a decent Primal Kyogre check but what else can it do on a metagame in which Pdon and Xerneas are so dominant? There are also other more viable options in a trick room team than Palkia is, in my opinion.
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Aegislash for B+.
"Reserved for Pokemon that fit well in the VGC16 metagame, but they have notable flaws that prevent them from filling their role to the fullest extent. The Pokemon in this tier are either predictable, require some team support to work to its full potential, or are at disadvantageous match-ups against some common threats. The flaws that the Pokemon in this tier have are mostly mitigated by their positive traits."
That's exactly how I see Aegislash. The gambling aspect of Stance Change vs Protect prevents it from filling its role to the fullest extent. It can't even use several movesets anymore since it needs GyroBall for Xerneas (so always physical attacker). It has a disadvantageous matchup against both primal, the taunt users, the encore users, Smeargle. Even against Kang if you don't have Sacred Sword, or Cress if you don't have any ghost move (although Cress can't threaten it back so it's alright I guess).
But it's still one of the few Pokémon that can use Wide Guard (if not the best), and can more or less check some of the hardest Pokémon to check (Xern and Rayquaza).
Regarding Kyogre Primal, I am totally fine with him joining the S.
Even if it's "less good" than Pdon according to some people, the Strong Rain is metagame-defining. Strategies based around Pogre's rain are some of the top threats in VGC16. And the Pokémon itself is far from being a burden, with its 770 BST and access to the strongest spread move in the game.
"Reserved for Pokemon that fit well in the VGC16 metagame, but they have notable flaws that prevent them from filling their role to the fullest extent. The Pokemon in this tier are either predictable, require some team support to work to its full potential, or are at disadvantageous match-ups against some common threats. The flaws that the Pokemon in this tier have are mostly mitigated by their positive traits."
That's exactly how I see Aegislash. The gambling aspect of Stance Change vs Protect prevents it from filling its role to the fullest extent. It can't even use several movesets anymore since it needs GyroBall for Xerneas (so always physical attacker). It has a disadvantageous matchup against both primal, the taunt users, the encore users, Smeargle. Even against Kang if you don't have Sacred Sword, or Cress if you don't have any ghost move (although Cress can't threaten it back so it's alright I guess).
But it's still one of the few Pokémon that can use Wide Guard (if not the best), and can more or less check some of the hardest Pokémon to check (Xern and Rayquaza).
Regarding Kyogre Primal, I am totally fine with him joining the S.
Even if it's "less good" than Pdon according to some people, the Strong Rain is metagame-defining. Strategies based around Pogre's rain are some of the top threats in VGC16. And the Pokémon itself is far from being a burden, with its 770 BST and access to the strongest spread move in the game.
Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
lagging tail is viable but to an extent. I totally wouldn't reccomend it on Aegislash though it's speed tier isn't the best so why would you want
It can make you "faster" in Trick Room than Pokemon below its speed tier, such as Amoonguss and Mega Mawile, but I'd rather my Aegislash hit hard with a Life Orb or be behind a Substitute while holding Leftovers.
No it doesn't, you're thinking of Iron Ball. Lagging tail makes you go last no matter what.
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