Oh, never mind, then :p
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VGC 2016 Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Serapis
- Start date
- Status
While I agree with a lot of the rankings at this point (except Kyogre dropping from S to A), I have to give an extreme second to Aegislash being B+ at best. The only thing it trades on is a boosted Xeneas, which rips an enormous chunk out of it at +2, and while it has the seemingly useful Wide Guard, Groudon, a Pokemon it would love to use that against, dunks on it easily with a single-target move on either special or mixed sets.
It's very underwhelming and either Ferrothorn or Mawile often perform its job better (and, in Mawile's case, more flexibly), and both check more relevant Pokemon than just Xerneas on a lucky day.
It was a sensible early-meta and post-GS Cup choice, but I no longer see many high-ladder teams running it.
It's very underwhelming and either Ferrothorn or Mawile often perform its job better (and, in Mawile's case, more flexibly), and both check more relevant Pokemon than just Xerneas on a lucky day.
It was a sensible early-meta and post-GS Cup choice, but I no longer see many high-ladder teams running it.
I second the above and have a few other nominations.
B- -> B+
This thing takes a ton of hits, and with a Download boost (though those don't always go in its favor) it can chunk Primal Groudon while tanking its hits fairly easily. It also has no relevant weaknesses aside from the highly uncommon Fighting type moves from Conkeldurr and Hariyama (Kang Low Kick BP is 60). It also gets Gravity which is great for Primal Groudon, and unlike Cresselia it can reliably use its recovery in all weathers.
A- -> B-
This thing is not that great lol. There are just so many great options for a team but Landorus-T doesn't bring much to the table aside from Intimidate and a ground immunity, and it's not that useful against any of the Primals/Mega Ray, while also having a worse matchup against most of the meta game than say Groudon or even Zygarde really.
B- -> B+
This thing takes a ton of hits, and with a Download boost (though those don't always go in its favor) it can chunk Primal Groudon while tanking its hits fairly easily. It also has no relevant weaknesses aside from the highly uncommon Fighting type moves from Conkeldurr and Hariyama (Kang Low Kick BP is 60). It also gets Gravity which is great for Primal Groudon, and unlike Cresselia it can reliably use its recovery in all weathers.
A- -> B-
This thing is not that great lol. There are just so many great options for a team but Landorus-T doesn't bring much to the table aside from Intimidate and a ground immunity, and it's not that useful against any of the Primals/Mega Ray, while also having a worse matchup against most of the meta game than say Groudon or even Zygarde really.
I haven't seen Porygon 2 at all, but it does seem worth checking out.I second the above and have a few other nominations.
A- -> B-
This thing is not that great lol. There are just so many great options for a team but Landorus-T doesn't bring much to the table aside from Intimidate and a ground immunity, and it's not that useful against any of the Primals/Mega Ray, while also having a worse matchup against most of the meta game than say Groudon or even Zygarde really.
I'm not sure I would support Landoru-T at B-, but I do think that wherever Aegislash goes, it should go, which would be B+ to B. It retains a number of good matchups and the rare Intimidate, but unless you're running a rogue special set (which I've seen), it won't get a lot of the KOs it wants to.
Still, not a terrible choice. But similar to Aegislash, it has some match-up specific jobs and even then isn't guaranteed to pull them off despite favorable circumstances.
Porygon2 only seems really viable if it gets a Download boost up. Even with Max SpAtk and a Download boost up it's still only like a 50% chance to 2HKO Primal Groudon.I second the above and have a few other nominations.
B- -> B+
This thing takes a ton of hits, and with a Download boost (though those don't always go in its favor) it can chunk Primal Groudon while tanking its hits fairly easily. It also has no relevant weaknesses aside from the highly uncommon Fighting type moves from Conkeldurr and Hariyama (Kang Low Kick BP is 60). It also gets Gravity which is great for Primal Groudon, and unlike Cresselia it can reliably use its recovery in all weathers.
+1 252 SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Primal Groudon: 96-114 (46.3 - 55%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO
(without Download boost) 252 SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Primal Groudon: 64-76 (30.9 - 36.7%) -- 61.9% chance to 3HKO
While Primal Groudon is faster and will only 3HKO Porygon2 if Precipice Blades is a dual target.
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 78-93 (40.6 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 105-124 (54.6 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Fire Blast is also a 2HKO.
252+ SpA Primal Groudon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2 in Harsh Sunshine: 109-130 (56.7 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I like Porygon2, but it seems subpar against Primal Groudon.
An alternative to Cresselia with Gravity/Trick Room is interesting though I'm not sure if that is enough to push it up to B+.
You don't really run max special attack, and it's not meant to really do anything to Pdon. Investment in Special Attack isn't that useful, obviously, but Cresselia hits nowhere near as hard with its low base 75 SpA if we want to compare.
4 SpA Cresselia Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Primal Groudon: 45-54 (21.7 - 26%) -- 2% chance to 4HKO
4 SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Primal Groudon: 51-61 (24.6 - 29.4%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
(assuming a Primal Groudon doesn't give you the +SPA Download boost like it should, Porygon2 still does more)
Cresselia in the same place?
252+ SpA Primal Groudon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Cresselia in Harsh Sunshine: 127-150 (55.9 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It also takes more from Precipice Blades, though only when Gravity is up/it's given its Levitate over to a partner Primal Groudon. Cresselia also takes notably more from Yveltal, of course -
252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Cresselia: 190-226 (83.7 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- and cannot hit back with Psychic/Psyshock, having to run non-STAB Ice Beam to hit both it and Groudon, and that makes it not only do pitiful amounts but it also becomes incapable of hitting Primal Kyogre which can pose as a big threat to a, well, sitting duck like Cresselia.
Also while this isn't nearly as important, Tri Attack has a decent chance to freeze/burn/paralyze an opponent which can be pretty useful.
All I see that P2 is missing that Cresselia has is Levitate to be immune to Precipice Blades/pass on to a partner and a free item slot, but the additional power and the slight enhancement to bulk makes it worth it.
Edit: fixed a calc that was Overheat>Fire Blast against Cress
Porygon2, I would expect to see it rise in usage because it's not weak to Yvetal and has that reliable recovery option in Recover. It can do most of what Cresselia can do better, bar a few move choices like Skill Swap but I don't know if it fits in with the other B+ usage 'mons though. I could see it moving up to B definitely, it doesn't seem as niche as like Chansey or Parasect.
Can i nominate Jumpluff for C mid:
This poke was originaly seen as useless, however i want to reconcider the things it can do and the things it fails at
Pro's: Whoping speed stat of 110 (pun intended) aswell as Chlorophyll undersun even outspeeds boosted Xerneas, Acces to some of the best support moves including Encore, Rage Powder and Sleep Powder aswell as other notable support moves like Worry Seed, Helping Hand and Reflect.
Con's: only damaging moves that have any proper damage out put are Acrobatic without an item, Grass Knott and Solar Beam both comming from a weak 55 Base.
0 SpA Jumpluff Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 60-72 (34 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO just so weak.
the obvious partner of this poke will be Primal Groundon allowing you to check Xerneas easly and with Worry Seed you can let Desolated Land be the dominant weather type.
This poke was originaly seen as useless, however i want to reconcider the things it can do and the things it fails at
Pro's: Whoping speed stat of 110 (pun intended) aswell as Chlorophyll undersun even outspeeds boosted Xerneas, Acces to some of the best support moves including Encore, Rage Powder and Sleep Powder aswell as other notable support moves like Worry Seed, Helping Hand and Reflect.
Con's: only damaging moves that have any proper damage out put are Acrobatic without an item, Grass Knott and Solar Beam both comming from a weak 55 Base.
0 SpA Jumpluff Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 60-72 (34 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO just so weak.
the obvious partner of this poke will be Primal Groundon allowing you to check Xerneas easly and with Worry Seed you can let Desolated Land be the dominant weather type.
Rayquaza slashed next to Mega Rayquaza in A rank.
It's been said a few times in this thread already, but it needs to happen. You'll ALWAYS have a potential Mega Rayquaza when running Dragon Ascent (a move you should be running anyway) and Air Lock as an ability is actually better than Delta Stream in a lot of scenarios. When running this with Kyogre/any other water type or anything with water coverage, Primal Groudon can no longer come in safely due to Desolate Land's ability being negated. LO Rayquaza is strong enough to where not mega evolving immediately is just fine.
Here's an example:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/vgc2016-308764723
Rayquaza comes in to cancel the effects of Desolate Land so Kyogre can attack with a Water Spout. Knowing Groudon's going to be forced out, I hold off Mega Evolving so I don't activate Delta Stream to have it de-activated later by Desolate Land.
Edit: I'm also going to make another wild nomination:
Mega Manectric for C+
I don't see this going any higher than C+ tbh because Primal Kyogre is essentially a required teammate in order to have someone for Primal Groudon, but with Primal Kyogre's support, this thing's actually pretty neat. Having access to a 100% accurate Thunder in the rain to stomp opposing Kyogre and hit hard neutrally in general is nifty, along with the Intimidate it brings and the useful Lightninrod ability pre-mega to switch in on T-Waves from Thundurus or electric coverage in general. While it doesn't work with Primordial Sea, Overheat/Flamethrower deals with one of Kyogre's biggest checks in Ferrothorn, while HP Ice OHKOs the likes of Mence and Normal Rayquaza. Outpacing the 130 speed tier, which includes Crobat, Mewtwo (X) and Mega Gengar, is also a fantastic trait.
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252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 156-184 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
HP Ice is a roll in the opponent's favor for Mence.
Meanwhile...
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 72-86 (40 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza: 144-172 (80 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 132-156 (63.7 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
...none of these are really close to KOs aside from HP Ice on Mega Ray. You're better off using Thundurus for that job because it can hold a Life Orb and is immune to Precipice Blades (tbf Thundurus can't beat both the dragons and Ferrothorn all at one time).
In all honesty why waste a mega slot on something that only has the sole niche of being an electric type that beats Ferrothorn, when you could use something like Thundurus and keep your mega slot open?
HP Ice is a roll in the opponent's favor for Mence.
Meanwhile...
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 72-86 (40 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza: 144-172 (80 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 132-156 (63.7 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
...none of these are really close to KOs aside from HP Ice on Mega Ray. You're better off using Thundurus for that job because it can hold a Life Orb and is immune to Precipice Blades (tbf Thundurus can't beat both the dragons and Ferrothorn all at one time).
In all honesty why waste a mega slot on something that only has the sole niche of being an electric type that beats Ferrothorn, when you could use something like Thundurus and keep your mega slot open?
It's not only this but it's also the fact that it can outpace base 120-130 Pokemon that Thundurus can't do immediately before it T-Waves. Intimidate support is also nice for Kyogre to patch up its weaker Defense stat. I'm not saying it's the best mega to use, and Thundurus is generally way better, I'll give you that, but it's better than shit like Zard Y, for instance.
Curious as to why Meowstic-M still isnt on here somewhere. It gets Fake Out, Quick Guard, Thunder Wave, Safeguard, Swagger, Charm, Gravity and Helping Hand. (Also Sucker Punch, lol) It seems like it should be Somwhere in the Bs or a C+ at least, since it has many niches it can pull off fairly well, but is probably not as amazing of an option, at least once the Smeargle Menace has been put down.
yeah but see here's the thing
Thundurus in this meta is already pretty mediocre
why use an objectively inferior Electric when there's already not much reason to use Thundurus?
Serapis
Losing my way to Victory
Update to Version 1.2:
Aegislash to B+
There was a pretty decent amount of contention here, but in the end the vote dictated that Aegi be moved down to B+
Meowstic-M added to B-
Generally decent supporter with Prankster, being added by popular demand.
Mega-Rayquaza and Rayquaza are now slashed in A rank
It's been suggested several times, and because Rayquaza doesn't actually need a Mega Stone to Mega evolve you can have a Semi-Mega Rayquaza pretty easily. This could be changed in the future depending on some things (I mean, Rayquaza and Mega-Ray often run different sets with regular Ray sometimes opting for Waterfall and Overheat with little intention to Mega-Evolve), but if it's an issue we can have a more complete discussion about it.
Landorus-T dropped to B+
The consensus does seem to be moving this guy down, but how far is up for debate. Atm he's only being dropped one rank but he (and Landorus-I) may fall farther in the future.
Porygon2 to B
With it's extreme bulk, Porygon2 can function well as a Trick Room setter and still manage to deal damage with either Analytic of Download, if it gets the luck SpA boost. Still, for it to move any more than this we'll need to have a more substantial debate on it.
Chansey dropped to C rank, Blissey to C-
Chansey and Blissey, while decent walls, do lack for offensive presence and even with their immense bulk still struggle against the absurdly powerful attacks that this meta is so happy to throw around.
Mega and Regular Blaziken added to C rank
Neither were in the rankings until this point, and they are both decent (Speed Boost + Fire Move when paired with Primal Groudon and it's Desolate Land can be devastating). C rank is more of a starting place for discussion than an actual evaluation of their true viability; it's a tier I can put them into where they can be debated as a part of the rankings.
Mega-Venusaur added to C
Same sort of idea as Mega-Blaziken when it comes to starting in C rank, Mega-Venu does well enough against Primal Groudon and Xerneas to deserve a spot in these rankings.
Mega-Manetric added to C-
Similar to the Blaziken and Venusuar Mega additions, but it just doesn't seem as solid. It does have a few niches, so it's being added, but it's still nothing amazing.
Rotom-W to C
Mostly so it's above Rotom-Cut, and to a lesser extent Rotom-Heat. With Air Lock support it's actually pretty good, and it's typing does still allow it to function well against threats like Mega-Rayquaza (rip Draco tho). Speaking of Rotom formes. . .
Rotom and Rotom-F removed from D rank
I do think this one mostly explains itself.
Crawdaunt added to D
Crawdaunt is cool, and with Adaptability it can hit stupidly hard. I might actually put it higher, but it's strongest STAB is Water which Desolate Land hinders, and it's Knock Off struggles in a meta full of Primals and Megas that don't lose their items.
Aegislash to B+
There was a pretty decent amount of contention here, but in the end the vote dictated that Aegi be moved down to B+
Meowstic-M added to B-
Generally decent supporter with Prankster, being added by popular demand.
Mega-Rayquaza and Rayquaza are now slashed in A rank
It's been suggested several times, and because Rayquaza doesn't actually need a Mega Stone to Mega evolve you can have a Semi-Mega Rayquaza pretty easily. This could be changed in the future depending on some things (I mean, Rayquaza and Mega-Ray often run different sets with regular Ray sometimes opting for Waterfall and Overheat with little intention to Mega-Evolve), but if it's an issue we can have a more complete discussion about it.
Landorus-T dropped to B+
The consensus does seem to be moving this guy down, but how far is up for debate. Atm he's only being dropped one rank but he (and Landorus-I) may fall farther in the future.
Porygon2 to B
With it's extreme bulk, Porygon2 can function well as a Trick Room setter and still manage to deal damage with either Analytic of Download, if it gets the luck SpA boost. Still, for it to move any more than this we'll need to have a more substantial debate on it.
Chansey dropped to C rank, Blissey to C-
Chansey and Blissey, while decent walls, do lack for offensive presence and even with their immense bulk still struggle against the absurdly powerful attacks that this meta is so happy to throw around.
Mega and Regular Blaziken added to C rank
Neither were in the rankings until this point, and they are both decent (Speed Boost + Fire Move when paired with Primal Groudon and it's Desolate Land can be devastating). C rank is more of a starting place for discussion than an actual evaluation of their true viability; it's a tier I can put them into where they can be debated as a part of the rankings.
Mega-Venusaur added to C
Same sort of idea as Mega-Blaziken when it comes to starting in C rank, Mega-Venu does well enough against Primal Groudon and Xerneas to deserve a spot in these rankings.
Mega-Manetric added to C-
Similar to the Blaziken and Venusuar Mega additions, but it just doesn't seem as solid. It does have a few niches, so it's being added, but it's still nothing amazing.
Rotom-W to C
Mostly so it's above Rotom-Cut, and to a lesser extent Rotom-Heat. With Air Lock support it's actually pretty good, and it's typing does still allow it to function well against threats like Mega-Rayquaza (rip Draco tho). Speaking of Rotom formes. . .
Rotom and Rotom-F removed from D rank
I do think this one mostly explains itself.
Crawdaunt added to D
Crawdaunt is cool, and with Adaptability it can hit stupidly hard. I might actually put it higher, but it's strongest STAB is Water which Desolate Land hinders, and it's Knock Off struggles in a meta full of Primals and Megas that don't lose their items.
C I feel is just fine regular blaziken, its defenses are ridiculously low with hard hitters like the primals around that it won't survive more than one turn of attacking.
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken in Heavy Rain: 396-468 (253.8 - 300%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP/0 Def Blaziken: 288 - 338 (184.6 - 216.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre: 152-179 (86.8 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Close Combat vs. 4 HP/0 Def Primal Groudon: 94 - 110 (53.4 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It could probably drop lower with all the other legends around, simply regular Blaziken isn't good at all. I'd also argue mega-blaziken will be no better than C+
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken in Heavy Rain: 396-468 (253.8 - 300%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP/0 Def Blaziken: 288 - 338 (184.6 - 216.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre: 152-179 (86.8 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Close Combat vs. 4 HP/0 Def Primal Groudon: 94 - 110 (53.4 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It could probably drop lower with all the other legends around, simply regular Blaziken isn't good at all. I'd also argue mega-blaziken will be no better than C+
Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
Looking a lot better now.
Gonna pick on some of the lower ranks first since they aren't dramatic and won't mess up the rankings to much.
Kecleon D ---> Unranked
Wait why is this here, please explain.
Kyurem D ---> Unranked
Yes it is a legend but this isn't like tiers where we have to rank a pokemon just because it is in the tier. Kyurem has pretty much no niche in a doubles metagame especially with Kyurem White allows who just straight up outclasses it.
Mega Charizard Y D ---> Unranked
With primals running around this thing is pretty useless in most cases. It also takes up a mega slot to be good.
Reshiram C ---> C-
Cool I can trade 20 more special attack and 5 speed for fire STAB. While this isn't garbage like Kyurem I don't really see it having any competitive effect on the metagame.
Zekrom C ---> C+
On the other hand choice band or choice scarf Bolt Strike is actually cool. Yes while Kyurem Black also has this and more attack, Zekrom actually has a useful STAB. Not to mention that Shuca Berry + Draco Meteor is a nice lure for PDon.
Klefki C ---> B-
Ummm Klefki is still really good. Definately not as good as it use to be but being a reliable screen setter with a dragon immunity is super cool. Thunder Wave stops fast things.
Groudon C ---> D/Unranked
Kyogre has the option of using Choice Scarf and nuking anything that doesn't resist it or has Desolate land while Groudon gets to use... leftovers... yeah I am going to use the same argument for Kyurem on this one.
I also think some of the more gimmicky pokemon need some discussion whether their niche is strong enough to even be listed. I'll compile a really short list for you guys.
One more note Serapis In C- The TTar sprite should be the mega version and not the normal one.
Gonna pick on some of the lower ranks first since they aren't dramatic and won't mess up the rankings to much.
Kecleon D ---> Unranked
Wait why is this here, please explain.
Kyurem D ---> Unranked
Yes it is a legend but this isn't like tiers where we have to rank a pokemon just because it is in the tier. Kyurem has pretty much no niche in a doubles metagame especially with Kyurem White allows who just straight up outclasses it.
Mega Charizard Y D ---> Unranked
With primals running around this thing is pretty useless in most cases. It also takes up a mega slot to be good.
Reshiram C ---> C-
Cool I can trade 20 more special attack and 5 speed for fire STAB. While this isn't garbage like Kyurem I don't really see it having any competitive effect on the metagame.
Zekrom C ---> C+
On the other hand choice band or choice scarf Bolt Strike is actually cool. Yes while Kyurem Black also has this and more attack, Zekrom actually has a useful STAB. Not to mention that Shuca Berry + Draco Meteor is a nice lure for PDon.
Klefki C ---> B-
Ummm Klefki is still really good. Definately not as good as it use to be but being a reliable screen setter with a dragon immunity is super cool. Thunder Wave stops fast things.
Groudon C ---> D/Unranked
Kyogre has the option of using Choice Scarf and nuking anything that doesn't resist it or has Desolate land while Groudon gets to use... leftovers... yeah I am going to use the same argument for Kyurem on this one.
I also think some of the more gimmicky pokemon need some discussion whether their niche is strong enough to even be listed. I'll compile a really short list for you guys.
- Parasect
- Gimmick = Dry Skin + Rage Powder
- It is a reliable POgre redirector at most but other than that is has worse bulk than Amoonguss (although Parasect has 80 Def and Guss has 70, Guss has almost twice the amount of HP as Parasect) and more abusable 4x weaknesses.
- Gimmick = Dry Skin + Rage Powder
- Cherrim (should still be ranked but like D to C)
- Perfect PDon partner
- Is a PDon partner primarily has really bad defenses when outside of sun. Also not to mention Sun makes fire moves even more effective against Cherrim.
- Perfect PDon partner
- Golduck
- PDon check (can also Ice Beam Mega Ray through Delta Stream)
- SUCKS AT ITS JOB, basically if the opponent doesn't have the two mentioned mons you have 5 choices instead of 6. If Golduck is lead against PDon + Fake Out you lose a pokemon.
- PDon check (can also Ice Beam Mega Ray through Delta Stream)
- Kecleon
- I honestly don't know if this is meant to be serious or a gimmick
One more note Serapis In C- The TTar sprite should be the mega version and not the normal one.
But all Klefki can really do is Screens and speed control with Priority Thunder Wave. It does also get Crafty Shield, but that is a one-turn thing. I would say it is fine where it is mostly because while it can do one thing to support the team very well, it can really just do the one thing.
I am also curious as to what Kecleon does... it gets protean sucker punch i guess?
I am also curious as to what Kecleon does... it gets protean sucker punch i guess?
Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
Protean sucker punch? Why use that when we have Dark boosted Sucker Punches y/y
You clearly have not seen this top tier team.
Though on a serious note it has the most powerful fire attack in the game aside from Pdon's Eruption (since it has its own sun of course) and gets a great supportive option in Tailwind that Kyurem-W does not. Trading that 5 speed and 20 base special attack does have benefits of course.
This could actually go higher tbh, the scarf set pulls so many KOs it's crazy. I especially like luring Xerneas with Zekrom and just bopping it with stuff like Bolt Strike.
252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 136-162 (60.7 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's a hella good chunk for something in a lower tier than Mienshao against something about to set up.
It loses so hard to Pdon, Pogre, Reshiram, Zekrom, Iron Head Mawile, Kyurem-W, Taunt of any kind, Talonflame, and, most importantly, trapping. It sucks up so much momentum that it's not that worth using.
Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
Unaware it got Tailwind, OK I take that vote back
I agree on Zekrom going up but since this is relatively new I didn't feel like nominating it up to fast. But I agree ScarfZekrom and Shuca Lure is really cool.
I suppose but I like the resistances a lot which can really help it
Meowstic to B+
Meowstic unlike Liepard has acces to Quick Guard to combine with the so usefull Prankster, i Don't think i need to explain the use of a +4 anti-priority move protecting both you and your allie from any move including Priority Taunt/Fake Out from weavile (not that Talonflame/Crobat can be running enough to do simalar but alright)
Further on the compairison of liepard this poke also has acces to Thunderwave and Fake Out but takes a more passive approach being some bulkier to the point it can run a bit of defence to live important moves Example these calculations:
The EV's between these are nicely even to the maximum investment. as you can run 192 in defence and 64 in special defence aswell as 252 in HP.
It can't survive Primal Groundon's or Primal Kyogres Eruption/Water Spout but it can survive depending on the spread what they can trow, i know it's not amazing especially as these defences aren't impressive but they can to an extend still work witout Focus Sash.
Other amazing moves include: Mean Look, Trick Room, Helping Hand, Misty Terrain but also Safeguard , Dual Screens, Imprison, Gravity and something I think is important Role Play, if this is a last moment of weather wars this move can change the situation from losing into winning at cost of your prankster ability.
Misty Terrain/Safeguard are amazing ways of dealing with Dark Void smeargle, it may seem odd, but it's not easy to just remove, takes 5 turns before it fades and also limits other status conditions like Burn and Paralysis....aswell as the oh so lucky freeze on your Primal Groundon/Kyogre. Same can be achieved with Safeguard tho.
The last compairison to liepard is a slight lack in offence, compaired to liepard as this poke can't use Foul play(from 88 Base) and needs to run Psychic with 83 Base to do any damage. Also the slight difference in speed of 2 points however that don't make any important difference at all.
showing versatility and usefull niches in the corners no one had even expected.
Meowstic unlike Liepard has acces to Quick Guard to combine with the so usefull Prankster, i Don't think i need to explain the use of a +4 anti-priority move protecting both you and your allie from any move including Priority Taunt/Fake Out from weavile (not that Talonflame/Crobat can be running enough to do simalar but alright)
Further on the compairison of liepard this poke also has acces to Thunderwave and Fake Out but takes a more passive approach being some bulkier to the point it can run a bit of defence to live important moves Example these calculations:
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Meowstic: 152-179 (83.9 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Meowstic: 153-183 (84.5 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Meowstic: 96-114 (53 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Primal Groudon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Meowstic in Harsh Sunshine: 153-180 (84.5 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Primal Groudon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Meowstic in Harsh Sunshine: 156-184 (86.1 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
0- SpA Primal Groudon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Meowstic in Harsh Sunshine: 157-186 (86.7 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Primal Groudon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Meowstic: 103-123 (56.9 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Primal Groudon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Meowstic: 78-93 (43 - 51.3%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Meowstic in Heavy Rain: 153-180 (84.5 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Meowstic in Heavy Rain: 160-190 (88.3 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Meowstic in Heavy Rain: 163-193 (90 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Meowstic: 153-183 (84.5 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Meowstic: 96-114 (53 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Primal Groudon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Meowstic in Harsh Sunshine: 153-180 (84.5 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Primal Groudon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Meowstic in Harsh Sunshine: 156-184 (86.1 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
0- SpA Primal Groudon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Meowstic in Harsh Sunshine: 157-186 (86.7 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Primal Groudon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Meowstic: 103-123 (56.9 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Primal Groudon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Meowstic: 78-93 (43 - 51.3%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Meowstic in Heavy Rain: 153-180 (84.5 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Meowstic in Heavy Rain: 160-190 (88.3 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Meowstic in Heavy Rain: 163-193 (90 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
The EV's between these are nicely even to the maximum investment. as you can run 192 in defence and 64 in special defence aswell as 252 in HP.
It can't survive Primal Groundon's or Primal Kyogres Eruption/Water Spout but it can survive depending on the spread what they can trow, i know it's not amazing especially as these defences aren't impressive but they can to an extend still work witout Focus Sash.
Other amazing moves include: Mean Look, Trick Room, Helping Hand, Misty Terrain but also Safeguard , Dual Screens, Imprison, Gravity and something I think is important Role Play, if this is a last moment of weather wars this move can change the situation from losing into winning at cost of your prankster ability.
Misty Terrain/Safeguard are amazing ways of dealing with Dark Void smeargle, it may seem odd, but it's not easy to just remove, takes 5 turns before it fades and also limits other status conditions like Burn and Paralysis....aswell as the oh so lucky freeze on your Primal Groundon/Kyogre. Same can be achieved with Safeguard tho.
The last compairison to liepard is a slight lack in offence, compaired to liepard as this poke can't use Foul play(from 88 Base) and needs to run Psychic with 83 Base to do any damage. Also the slight difference in speed of 2 points however that don't make any important difference at all.
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Every mega that isn't Kanga/gengar/Ray/mawile/mence => unranked.
Don't see a point in any individual nom to justify this since every other mega sucks ass in comparisson (I don't see why op is so insistent on putting garbage megas in B/C rank when they have such a huge opportunity cost or just plain suck)
Palkia => B/- bad mon. Beats nothing. Waste of an ubers slot.
Ho oh => B beats xern but doesn't do much besides that. Plz no more pdon + ho oh are good partners xd.
Arcticblast edit: cool it with the bold dude
Don't see a point in any individual nom to justify this since every other mega sucks ass in comparisson (I don't see why op is so insistent on putting garbage megas in B/C rank when they have such a huge opportunity cost or just plain suck)
Palkia => B/- bad mon. Beats nothing. Waste of an ubers slot.
Ho oh => B beats xern but doesn't do much besides that. Plz no more pdon + ho oh are good partners xd.
Arcticblast edit: cool it with the bold dude
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Nominating Raichu for B-.
It is one of the faster fake out users in the game and coupled with access to encore, it outright shuts down smeargle and punishes protect spam. I'm not 100% sure if modest is usable as a nature as you lose out to base 100s, but timid variants 2hko kyogre and hp ice 1-2hkos the likes of salamence and rayquaza as well.
Cons are paper defenses and no real way to touch groudon. And unless super effective, damage output is lacking.
It is one of the faster fake out users in the game and coupled with access to encore, it outright shuts down smeargle and punishes protect spam. I'm not 100% sure if modest is usable as a nature as you lose out to base 100s, but timid variants 2hko kyogre and hp ice 1-2hkos the likes of salamence and rayquaza as well.
Cons are paper defenses and no real way to touch groudon. And unless super effective, damage output is lacking.
Nominating Xerneas to S- (or even A+)
I've been using Xerneas since the day this format was announced and I can say from my own experience that the metagame has adapted to it pretty well at this point.
Obviously it is a big threat as an early game wallbreaker and an even bigger threat as a late game cleaner, but I don't think that it deserves to be listed next to Primal Groudon or Mega Kangaskhan.
Xerneas is (pretty much) a one trick deer and though it does this one trick very well, every decent team is more than prepared to handle it. Anyone, who has played this format for a bit, knows what to expect from it and how to deal with it or how to deny it the opportunities to set up without taking heavy damage in the process. An unboosted Xerneas, on the other hand, isn't that great.
Mega Kangaskhan, Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre, Mega Mawile, Mega Gengar, Talonflame, Mega Rayquaza, Mega Salamence, Ferrothorn, Dialga and Ho-oh will deal heavy damage to Xerneas and probably bring it into KO range for their partner or all kinds of priority moves. (if they don't OHKO with Helping Hand support or Steel-type STAB or whatever...)
Crobat, Liepard, Cresselia, Smeargle and Thundurus-I all have ways to either keep Xerneas from boosting or to punish it for doing so. (fast Taunt, Prankster Taunt, Prankster Encore, Prankster Thunder Wave, Trick Room, Dark Void or even Transform...)
...and these are just the S + A Rank mons that are everywhere.
The top of the list should just be Mega Kangaskhan and Primal Groudon imo.
Mega Kangaskhan is the best non-restricted monster bar none and Primal Groudon is just the best monster in the format.
I've been using Xerneas since the day this format was announced and I can say from my own experience that the metagame has adapted to it pretty well at this point.
Obviously it is a big threat as an early game wallbreaker and an even bigger threat as a late game cleaner, but I don't think that it deserves to be listed next to Primal Groudon or Mega Kangaskhan.
Xerneas is (pretty much) a one trick deer and though it does this one trick very well, every decent team is more than prepared to handle it. Anyone, who has played this format for a bit, knows what to expect from it and how to deal with it or how to deny it the opportunities to set up without taking heavy damage in the process. An unboosted Xerneas, on the other hand, isn't that great.
Mega Kangaskhan, Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre, Mega Mawile, Mega Gengar, Talonflame, Mega Rayquaza, Mega Salamence, Ferrothorn, Dialga and Ho-oh will deal heavy damage to Xerneas and probably bring it into KO range for their partner or all kinds of priority moves. (if they don't OHKO with Helping Hand support or Steel-type STAB or whatever...)
Crobat, Liepard, Cresselia, Smeargle and Thundurus-I all have ways to either keep Xerneas from boosting or to punish it for doing so. (fast Taunt, Prankster Taunt, Prankster Encore, Prankster Thunder Wave, Trick Room, Dark Void or even Transform...)
...and these are just the S + A Rank mons that are everywhere.
The top of the list should just be Mega Kangaskhan and Primal Groudon imo.
Mega Kangaskhan is the best non-restricted monster bar none and Primal Groudon is just the best monster in the format.
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Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
I can agree with this nomination because every team is prepared to face Xerneas so you fit this under the team as meta defining. Xerneas is one of the reasons for the rise of Wide Guard and Crobat. I can definately see this going to S
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