ORAS NU Viability Rankings

[Shuckleking87]

Havent nommed anything in ages since I havent played much nu in ages, but Mr. Mime could move up from C+ to B-. Choice specs meme hits super hard, like psychic is a 2hko on av magmortar after rocks. It ohkos sturdy broken steelix with focus blast unless its fully special defensive steelix (not sure if thats popular). Mime 2hko's skuntank wiht dazzling gleam. The last slot is nice as you have alot of versatility, with trick and healing wish as cool support moves, or energy ball to ohko spd rhydon and 2hko claydol, or shadow ball to 2hko musharna and max hp mesprit. Soundproof mime is also really cool in stopping specs swellow spamming boomburst, as heat wave is not a 2hko. And outspeeding sawk is nice.

 

[Punchshroom]

Havent nommed anything in ages since I havent played much nu in ages, but Mr. Mime could move up from C+ to B-. Choice specs meme hits super hard, like psychic is a 2hko on av magmortar after rocks. It ohkos sturdy broken steelix with focus blast unless its fully special defensive steelix (not sure if thats popular). Mime 2hko's skuntank wiht dazzling gleam. The last slot is nice as you have alot of versatility, with trick and healing wish as cool support moves, or energy ball to ohko spd rhydon and 2hko claydol, or shadow ball to 2hko musharna and max hp mesprit. Soundproof mime is also really cool in stopping specs swellow spamming boomburst, as heat wave is not a 2hko. And outspeeding sawk is nice.

This man using Energy Ball instead of the 100 BP Grass Knot smh; it even cleanly 2HKOes Steelix

Mr. Mime certainly has good worth as an offensive mon, being the only real offensive Fairy-type in the tier and holding its own as an offensive Psychic-type as well. Not only does Mr. Mime have a fantastic offensive movepool which nets great neutral coverage on the whole tier, but support moves like Healing Wish and Baton Pass (escapes Sucker Punch + Pursuit, or pull off an unexpected NastyPass) let it hold its own very well. Sucks that it can't check Fightings worth a damn, but checking the increasingly popular Specs Swellow is a trait many offensive teams would really like.

looks like it can see a rise to B+, as the meta shifts are favorable for it. Steelix reduced the usage of most other Steel-types that actually resist Articuno's dual STABs, there are still a lot of mons Articuno can threaten with Freeze-Dry + Hurricane + Frost Breath, and most notably, the steady decline in faster physical attackers (Tauros, Archeops, Zangoose) and the rise in specially offensive attackers (Sceptile, Swellow) means that CUno isn't even as threatened by offense than it was before. Things are looking up for Ice burd in this meta.

 

[Deltre]

I have a bit of an oddball nomination this time, haven't really ran into anyone else using this but I've had more than a fair amount of success with this guy. A bit of a disclaimer here, I've only played ~20 or so games since the last major shift, so if I'm forgetting anything obvious feel free to call me out on that. Anyways, the nomination

Vigoroth Unranked -> C+/B-

The Set

Vigoroth @ Eviolite
Ability: Vital Spirit
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 220 SpD / 36 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Slack Off
- Bulk Up
- Frustration
- Taunt

So Vigoroth is a pretty interesting mon, acting as a stallbreaker, win condition, sleep resist, and general damage sponge rolled into one package. To any PU vets, this thing needs no introduction, but for those of you who are less familiar with its function, Vigoroth is a mon that likes to abuse its relatively good speed tier (for NU anyways) to shut down mons that rely on setup and status in order to deal the majority of their damage, and turn them into setup fodder instead. With the listed EVs, you outspeed neutral natured Max Speed Base 70s, with a few extra points thrown in to eliminate potential speed ties with Mons that commonly creep around 240 Speed (Skuntank, Klinklang, and AV Magmortar most notably). Alternatively, 252 HP / 200 SpD / 56 Spe can be used to outspeed Hitmonchan to force the Mach Punch or even 252 HP / 172 SpD / 84 Spe for neutral-max Base 80s, but I think the extra bulk the better choice. And if your team is weak to JUST Hitmonchan...well I don't even know how you did that.

The main draw of Vig over other stallbreakers, Missy for example, is its ability to hard-counter bulky sweepers the likes of Barrier+CM/CM+2 Attacks Musharna and MAudino while having reliable recovery in Slack Off to compliment its good overall bulk. And of course, with Bulk Up at its disposal, even a single boost can spell GG if the appropriate checks have been whittled/removed beforehand. Some notable things you can set up on for game or at bare minimum beat 1v1 include:

The Fodder

- Rotom-S (offensive 4HKOs, defensive is shut down by Taunt)
- MAudino (All variants)
- Musharna (All variants, though somewhat fearful of a rouge TWave because Vig likes its speed)
- Piloswine
- Rhydon (loses...eventually)
- Steelix (see above)
- Mesprit
- Scyther
- Torterra
- Skuntank (Physical or Special, but fears 30% poison from PJab)
- Vileplume (fears poison and effect spore)
- Weezing (again, fears poison)
- Floatzel (Phys or Special)

And almost anything else that can't match or beat the power of the mons listed above without a boost. And that list doesn't even get into things like Ferroseed, which is stalled out, or some of the shakier setup options like Klinklang (you probably outspeed and Taunt with the given EVs, but there's potential for Fast Gears), Kangaskhan (Vig will win 1v1 and get at least one boost without prior Fake Out damage, but Vig can probably still force it to KO itself at the very least, bar Power-Up Punch), and Mawile (shaky, as you have to play around SD until you get at least 1 boost or face the possible 2HKO)

It's not all great for this ape, however. Unboosted, Return deals passable damage at best, and even then that's only against frail but strong mons that will likely beat you 1v1 before you can take them down. As such, Vig is better used as a pivot and supportive disrupter until it can find opportunity for setup. Also, while 90 Base Speed is very good for its intended purpose, the fact that you won't be fully investing means that you invite in powerful threats such as Sawk. You're all but required to run some sort of dedicated Fighting-Type answer, and many of those sap momentum or are otherwise easy to predict. Its reliance on Eviolite to maintain special bulk means you'll probably want an answer to Knock Off hey look Gourgeist-Super does both of those things. And of course as hinted at earlier, Vig doesn't care for status when trying for a sweep. It turns too many 3HKOs into 2HKOs with residual, especially on its unboosted special side, and while normal poison can be played around it absolutely HATES burn/toxic and to a lesser extent TWave. And then there's the obvious fact that this set can do nothing to Ghosts whatsoever, so your team needs some kind of answer to those (Specifically Missy, Golurk, and Rotom-N, as Gourgeist-XL and other slower/passive Ghosts are theoretically Stalled out if that's your thing, you glorious bastard you). Additionally, while only the strongest attackers are capable of 2HKOing this beast without setup or a supereffective coverage move, you must be wary of switching in recklessly, as its lack of resistances can leave it easily whittled in combination with hazards, forcing the Slack Off should you choose to save it for a later time.

Before the drops, I would have said B-, no question. However, I feel that C+ may be more appropriate right now, with the introduction of new powerful threats as well as increased incentive to run Focus Blast on old threats RIP Vig as my Jynx counter. Try it out, its not half bad on balance. And as much as I may regret saying this later, on paper it would be annoying as hell to face on stall and is probably as good or possibly an even better option than MAudino as a win-con for Stall at this time with Taunt, 1 Turn Recovery, and only one highly telegraphed weakness. Especially with Steelix on every other team.

Some Replays

These are a bit outdated, so I'll try to get some more that more accurately reflect the current meta when I have some free time. Still I think they're a pretty good representation of the kinds of things Vig can do in the tier.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-296071111
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-296076496
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nu-298307248

 

[Evan.]

i could see vigoroth getting ranked, but i think that c+ is pushing it a bit, especially w/ common stuff like mantine sitting in c. the fact is that it's really only effective against bulkier teams and even bulkier mons usually have a way of crippling it or inflicting status through indirect means (sludge bomb poisons, scald burns). if you're running a fairly offensive team its not too difficult to pressure to the point where its pretty much a non-factor, especially with fighting types being as prevalent as they are in nu. I don't even think it handles stall too well because quagsire is practically a necessity on most stall builds and you end up getting into these aids never-ending stall wars because neither mon can break each other (and quag is bound to get a scald burn eventually). i think there's a good replay somewhere w/ meta against someone for nul where meta brings a vigoroth against tricking stall and still can't break through. i could see it maybe in c- or d but anything above that would be too high.

i personally think that bulky rotom is one of the best mons in the tier and have felt like that for a while, totally deserves a+. the amount of support it provides from a single slot means that it's always doing something in a match, barring a camerupt on the other side of the field. while i think that bulky is probably the best set, offensive hex sets or even scarf sets can offer some surprise factor and put in work to punch holes or revenge faster threats. just a really reliable and versatile mon that fits on a lot of builds and definitely deserves a rise to a+.

mime is also really neat right now and i agree on a rise (s/o's to Sir Kay for showing me in a test match recently). it finally has a niche over mesprit as an offensive mon in its superior coverage and soundproof is a really cool ability on offense to check swellow (which is really scary for offensive teams to face atm). i still think that mesprit is usually the better option because of its unpredictability and general versatility, but mime definitely has a notable niche that shouldn't be ignored, b- is a good fit.

: now for my own nom, i think that there's a mon that's been getting a bad rap for a while, and it should probably rise a bit because its actually really cool atm and that mon is muk. muk has had a stigma against it as being a bad mon that should drop to PU for a while, but i think it has some notable niches in this meta. obviously, being a specially bulky poison type means that its a decent sceptile check, but what muk has going for it hits ridiculously hard w/ gunk shot and even though it looks like steelix bait, focus punch is a really cool move on it that allows it to do >50% on non-choiced variants and >70% from CB sets. ofc it seems gimmicky at first, but having used the mon, there's rarely a time when a person won't switch in their rhydon / steelix if you have a muk in on something it forces out, say a vileplume or sceptile. it also has some cool tech options in memento, boom, priority in sneak, etc. i could definitely see it rise to c+ but i wouldnt be opposed to throwing it c at first and going from there. its a rly cool mon don't hate on it just cause people told you its bad

also i know i nommed ludi to drop, and im not sure what stopped it. i'd like to see that happen especially since it looked like i got some support from others and its rly not good atm lol.

 

[ryan]

finally someone listens to me about muk..

 

[Deltre]

i could see vigoroth getting ranked, but i think that c+ is pushing it a bit, especially w/ common stuff like mantine sitting in c. the fact is that it's really only effective against bulkier teams and even bulkier mons usually have a way of crippling it or inflicting status through indirect means (sludge bomb poisons, scald burns). if you're running a fairly offensive team its not too difficult to pressure to the point where its pretty much a non-factor, especially with fighting types being as prevalent as they are in nu. I don't even think it handles stall too well because quagsire is practically a necessity on most stall builds and you end up getting into these aids never-ending stall wars because neither mon can break each other (and quag is bound to get a scald burn eventually). i think there's a good replay somewhere w/ meta against someone for nul where meta brings a vigoroth against tricking stall and still can't break through. i could see it maybe in c- or d but anything above that would be too high.

C- and certainly D feels too low to me. I do think that it is comfortably C material, and I don't believe C+ is as much a stretch as you say, having several qualities that puts it above or at least on par with the rest of C Rank. I can absolutely see your logic on this, so I'd like to go point by point. Also, I'd like to introduce a different variant that serves a slightly different function into my argument for this ranking, Sub Vigoroth. I should have mentioned this in my original nom, so I apologize, because it does change things up enough to be considered its own threat IMO.

The Argument Pt. Deux

1. I don't believe that because x pokemon (in your example, Mantine) is a certain rank, that disqualifies Vigoroth from passing a certain ranking threshold. There's a lot of reasons Mantine may be only C Rank (I personally think it could be C+ but bear with me here) and questions you have to ask yourself when deciding a rank. What is the function of this mon? Is there a similar option out there that may be better suited to this meta? What am I giving up by using this mon? Does it have versatility? Vig and Mantine especially couldn't be more different in function, so I don't believe ranking one at C disqualifies the other, or vice versa. To add to that, I think that Vig is pretty unique in what it does, not leaving it what I would consider to be truly outclassed in its roles.

2. I concede that added status moves are a definite annoyance to the set that I posted. An alternate set that utilizes Substitute over Taunt is perfectly viable as well (very much my own fault for not mentioning this in my original nom), turning some of those more iffy set-up options like Weezing and the like into sure things. With this set you can also afford to drop some speed and run a Careful nature, I like 252 HP / 236 SpD / 16 Spe for base for the rare base 60, and renders mons such as Vileplume unable to break your sub in one go. Sub also turns any passive water type into free setup (your Prinplups, Lanturns, Mantines, Pelippers, etc.) free from fear of Scald burn. Of course, you give up the utility of Taunt on a set like this and open yourself up to phasing, but from a self supporting sweeper standpoint, Sub might actually be the more dangerous option because it makes you much harder to revenge kill assuming you can get a sub on something that needs at least 2 hits, all the while still being able to dodge status. You give up something with each set, but they both have their fair share of positives to compensate.

3. Again, its hard to argue against the point that Vig excels against bulkier team archetypes where setup options are plentiful. It's not entirely deadweight against HO, but I won't say it doesn't have a harder matchup for sure. Still, there are some common HO mons that don't appreciate Vigoroth. Vivillon, for example has a mere 37.1% chance to 2HKO Vig from +1 with a standard spread and the Taunt spread I listed. With the Sub spread I listed, it has a 55.5% chance at +1 and only if rocks have been set. Otherwise, or failing a boost, it can't 2HKO at all and is 2HKOd in return (no pun intended). Something like Samurott would need a boost beforehand to pose a threat to you, (252+ Atk Life Orb Samurott Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 125-148 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock), and I think you'll find it's a similar story for many offensive threats that lack a super-effective move to hit you, or rely on a boost to do significant damage. From full, even something as powerful as Tauros has to be careful in their approach as

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 165-196 (45.3 - 53.8%)

+

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 110-133 (30.2 - 36.5%)

is a net total of 75.5%-90.3%, failing to 2HKO and allowing you to boost to your hearts content in a 1v1 scenario. Archeops is in a similar boat if it doesn't pack the Taunt. I will absolutely give you that Fighting-Types are a problem to this thing, but I'd argue that Fighting-Types are a problem to damn near everything that can't resist their colorful coverage, Sawk in particular. Still, the fact that you can invite in something so powerful is definitely something to consider. The likes of Chan and Sawk aren't going to want to come in directly too many times though as even an unboosted Return is doing upwards of 40% to both, and can even 2HKO Chan 58.6% of the time with no rocks. Combusken is also 3HKOd and outsped before a boost, so it doesn't want to come in directly either and must Protect on top of that in order to not be crippled/KOd, and the potential for Sub makes it a pretty shaky answer all around. And that's Eviolite, as Orb is cleanly 2HKOd, while failing to OHKO that sub variant I mentioned if Special. Yama will lose to a sub variant that can snag a boost before it comes in, as Knock Off can't break the sub at +1 and will eventually lower its defenses enough to be picked off after only 2 CCs + 1 round of rocks, dealing a min of 96% with +1 Return. For a cost of only 50% of your health, that's not bad. Yama has nothing to fear vs Taunt variants, however, and Gurdurr, and Wrath are more or less free to do as they please.

As for other offensive threats that I didn't cover, Jynx and Sceptile both pose an issue if they run Focus Blast, but are otherwise susceptible to going 1 for 1 with you. For clarifications sake, I mean that Vig will get the KO but be left so low that almost anything can revenge you if you don't switch. AV Mag is in the same boat, facing a 3HKO from Return while 3HKOing back with Fire Blast. Focus Blast variants will lose to Taunt Vig with rocks support, because AV for the most part does not run max speed and is outsped. Life Orb is a problem however, scoring the 2HKO and outspeeding you. Life Orb Pyroar is stalled out via recoil, and can at best burn you with Will-O. Scarf is stalled out of Fire Blasts, and Hyper Voice is a 4HKO against the Taunt spread. Specs has a small chance of coming out on top (and I do mean small, you'd need 5 to 6 max rolls in a row, with no misses) before otherwise being stalled out of Fire Blasts, while Flamethrower is a 3HKO. All the while, Pyroar faces a 2HKO after one round of rocks. Lilligant probably fares the best, able to potentially 2HKO you at +1 while avoiding a 2HKO in return thanks to Giga Drain recovery, so we can give this matchup to Lilligant unless they misplay. Ludicolo has a 3.9% chance at the 2HKO without Rain + Hydro, and Taunt prevents that in a 1v1 situation. From there, Ludi is stalled out of Hydros or set up bait if they try to Drain. SD Scyther should lose in the long run if I've done my calculations correctly. It's essentially a race to +6, but Scyther starts too weak to deal any significant damage and Vig is capable of healing off the damage as you set up along side it. It's risky because of Crit potential, but barring that Vig comes out on top if you just set up and Slack Off where appropriate. Rocks skew this heavily in Vigs favor. Banded Scyther is a 3HKO on Vig, nuff said. LO Cacturne needs Drain Punch and/or an SD before getting Taunted to win. The list goes on and on, I'd hardly say it's deadweight VS other playstyles beyond fat. It's harder to pressure than you say, because with just one Bulk Up we see some of these 2HKOs turn into 3HKOs, and those 3HKOs eventually become 4HKOs, and so on. So while both variants have answers, you'd best be quick about it lol.

4. Fighting-Types are and have been pretty much THE defining threats in NU for some time now. I do think that it's worth noting that Vig can almost always do something in almost any matchup, and even has a few tricks up its sleeve to help it beat some of its own checks, as shown above. And none of those scenarios require godlike play or anything either, I've played them out firsthand many times and I'm basically ass. I can't deny the possibility that somewhere out there someone has made a team of 6 mons that Vig can't do anything to, but I used Vig exclusively (well, about 85-90%) during the NLT tour recently, and was astounded by its overall performance. Very seldom did it go worse than 1-1 in a given match, and so many times it just won after its checks (frequently as little Ghost type + Sawk, might I add) had been removed. Even during finals, during one game I brought Vigoroth vs Trade, and after a certain point in the match the combination of Vigoroth + Gourgeist just won, with 4 mons left on his side. I mention the partner I chose, because the weaknesses you presented are certainly valid and need to be carefully considered, but as the description of C (and to a lesser extent, B) "the negative characteristics are something to weigh against their positives." Being weak to Fighting is definitely a negative, no debate there. The question here, is does that really effect how I'm going to build my team, or put any significant strain on my teambuilding process? For me personally, and many others, not really. With Sawk and fighting types being every bit as defining as you said, you'd have to be some kind of madman to not carry some sort of fighting check, sometimes both an offensive and defensive on styles like balance. Vig isn't exactly out here losing to niche mons, so while its weaknesses are something to consider, I don't think they should banish it to D rank. There are plenty of things even in the upper echelons of this list that get bodied by Sawk, but as we know through use and experience, what they offer in return is worth the risk.

In fact, I'd argue that the fact that no matter what set you use, the fact that you can't touch Ghosts is a much bigger hindrance on the teambuilding process than its fighting weakness. Rotom-N is particularly infuriating, being not only annoying to Vig itself but many, many other mons in general, especially those that you would want to partner with Vig. Because most Ghosts are frail, or otherwise stopped by Taunt variants, its too much of a stretch in my book to say that you NEED something like say, a pursuit trapper, though it's appreciated. Even still, there's no getting around the fact that Vigoroth literally can not touch the likes of Mismagius, Rotom-N, and Golurk, none of which are too uncommon.

5. As a setup sweeper that relies on its physical attacking stats and lacks grass coverage, I definitely can't argue that it loses to Quagsire 1v1 9/10 times. With Taunt though you can at the very least prevent recovery, allowing you to switch into a more suitable answer while keeping Quag whittled. This is something that many setup sweepers wish they could do, because Quag is just so damn resilient. I don't think that its inability to beat Quagsire really hinders it that much compared to any other physical setup mon, and I'd argue that it can even do a little more than you might expect a physical sweeper to do because it can prevent the recover. Quag is annoying to be sure, but if its fair to say that you can just apply the pressure to Vig I think its just as fair to say that Quag suffers from a similar issue when facing a Vig squad. As for the rest of the staple stall mons, I didn't really see you saying that Taunt Vig doesn't smash them completely, so I'll assume we can agree on that point. Beating Mushy and to a lesser extent MAudino with ease are huge boons to any mon IMO. There are other options, to be sure, but very few that can turn a potential sweep into a sweep in your favor instead, all the while remaining healthy enough to check them indefinitely. And I absolutely do not mean to take anything away from either player you mentioned, but one example of Vig losing to stall doesn't invalidate the fact that the stallbreaker variant is a huge annoyance to deal with for that playstyle. The fact is that VS full stall, the stall player is at a disadvantage from the very start by Vigs presence alone, and has to play a very particular way to avoid being outright swept, or at the very least whittled to the point where something else can finish the job.

Hidden because I don't want to clutter the thread with all that text, but felt the detail was needed. With the Taunt variant putting the hurt on bulkier teams that rely on status and the Sub variant giving it a healthy presence against Balance and more offensive builds, especially those that rely heavily on physical attacks/Psyshock or lack reliable phasing, I can't help but feel that C- is too low and D is certainly criminally underrated. This mon has proven itself in my experience capable of 6-0ing teams that aren't prepared, and rarely does nothing throughout a match, particularly with the disruption of the Taunt variant. I stand by my nom, but I'm not the one who makes that decision lol. I wouldn't be surprised to see it more once it gets the boot from PU and starts getting a little more attention though.

I do completely agree with Rotom-N to A+, though. The Will-O/Hex set is as annoying as ever, and can leave a number of things crippled throughout the match in the absence of a cleric. It's also versatile, being able to run Scarf, Colbur, Spooky Plate, and even a Sub set. It packs a good set of resistances to help with its frailness and is just unpredictable enough that you can never be 100% sure how to deal with it until you've scouted, and by then it may have already done its job.

Mime seems really interesting right now, I could see the B- rank for sure, for reasons already covered.

Personally, I can't agree with a Muk rise. I can see some of your argument, and I love me some unprotected Focus Punch action every now and again, but has it really gotten that much better because it can potentially lure Steelix? With damage output like that, it's definitely a cool option, but you're still forced out right after, and it's only surprising once. And Muk as a Sceptile switch in is very shaky, because LO EQ is a solid 2HKO even uninvested. Not to mention things like Garbodor and especially Weezing are as common as ever, share the same typing, and completely wall you while providing better team support. I never thought Muk was unusable or anything, just not very good I guess. It's got some a wide movepool and is bulky on the special side with AV, but doesn't really have the power to compensate for its poor speed or vice versa. Shadow Sneak is so woefully weak coming from this guy, that if I do use it chances are I'm praying for the poison more than anything. The lack of speed also hurts its otherwise cool support options. For example, it's significantly harder to pull off a last ditch memento with Muk than it is for say, Jumpluff. The best thing it has going for it IMO is its insane poison rate when combined with Poison Touch. I've seen a Curse set before that was able to put in some work, but with Steelix around now I can't really see using that. Idk, C- seems fair

 

[Silver Aurum]

**C- -> C

I know this thing just saw a rise to C- but honestly this thing is so good and I would like to see a rise to C. Clefairy's support movepool is so incredibly diverse it's ridiculous. With access to moves like Healing Wish, Thunder Wave, Stealth Rocks, and even Calm Mind (granted steelix's presence makes this option less appealing as you are forced to run Flamethrower if you want to be able to touch it). Pairing this diverse movepool with Eviolite, Magic Guard, and reliable recovery in the form of Soft-Boiled makes Clefairy such a good blanket check to so many special attackers. The ability to semi-reliably switch into and handle special Samurott, Magmortar, and even one of the biggest threats in the tier, special Sceptile, in one slot is ridiculous. I will agree that being passive and susceptible to Knock Off hurts this thing a lot, but considering all of the aforementioned perks I believe this thing is deserving of a rise to C.

calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 149-177 (43.3 - 51.4%) -- 8.6% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 121-144 (35.1 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 142-169 (41.2 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 120-142 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 130-153 (37.7 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 150-177 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Nitpick, but as Sceptile and Steelix got analyses recently shouldn't they be linked like nearly everything else? Just asking.

Disj edit: just did this :)

 

[Take Azelfie]

Sliggoo C- ---> C
With the AoA set this thing can reliably help two scary pokemon in the tier being Samurott and Rhydon since Sliggoo resist so much. Grass-types don't even touch Sliggoo for the most part thanks to Sap Sipper. Water-types are easily pivoted into (unless it is physical) and retaliate with Thunderbolt. It also resist electric for Samurott. It can fit well on to most teams with a FWG core since it provides an extra pivot for each type. Curse, while may seem difficult to build around is actually quite easy. It has gotten me a lot of wins on a fresh alt with only like two pokemon supporting it.

 

[kay]

Ninjask C- --> C+


So with the speed tier rising from 110-115 to 120-125 Ninjask finds itself going from having an over kill speed tier to an extremely relevant one. With the ability to out speed and revenge kill the likes of Sceptile and Swellow and +1 Lilligant and Vivilon (if jolly) have made it become a relevant threat in the metagame.

Normally when you run something to out speed the 120-125 range you have to use a scarfer, and unfortunately running scarfers more times then not can kill your momentum. But Ninkask has the ability to hit them without the need of a scarf, freeing you up to run CB which nets you comparable power to CB Scyther while hitting speed tiers similar to Scarf Scyther. It is also insane for getting and maintaining momentum as it has the fastest non Scarf U-Turn in the tier.
Ninjask has some helpful traits aside from it's god level speed such as Infiltrator which lets it revenge kill things behind a Substitute, typing that allows it to switch into Sceptiles Leaf Storms/ Giga Drains/ Focus Blasts/ Leaf Blades/ non boosted Acrobatics and random Close Combats, and Final Gambit which can take off 74% off of standard Steelix which can open the door for things like SD Sceptile, Mawile, and even Klinklang to sweep later.

You might think that Steelix hurts Ninjask but if you pair it with the likes of a Sawk or a Magmortar you can just U-turn on the incoming Steelix and come into anything that threatens it out, maintaining your momentum.


I think high momentum teams are extremely strong right now and Ninjask is an amazing option for teams who can support it.

 

[Evan.]

C- and certainly D feels too low to me. I do think that it is comfortably C material, and I don't believe C+ is as much a stretch as you say, having several qualities that puts it above or at least on par with the rest of C Rank. I can absolutely see your logic on this, so I'd like to go point by point. Also, I'd like to introduce a different variant that serves a slightly different function into my argument for this ranking, Sub Vigoroth. I should have mentioned this in my original nom, so I apologize, because it does change things up enough to be considered its own threat IMO.

The Argument Pt. Deux

1. I don't believe that because x pokemon (in your example, Mantine) is a certain rank, that disqualifies Vigoroth from passing a certain ranking threshold. There's a lot of reasons Mantine may be only C Rank (I personally think it could be C+ but bear with me here) and questions you have to ask yourself when deciding a rank. What is the function of this mon? Is there a similar option out there that may be better suited to this meta? What am I giving up by using this mon? Does it have versatility? Vig and Mantine especially couldn't be more different in function, so I don't believe ranking one at C disqualifies the other, or vice versa. To add to that, I think that Vig is pretty unique in what it does, not leaving it what I would consider to be truly outclassed in its roles.

2. I concede that added status moves are a definite annoyance to the set that I posted. An alternate set that utilizes Substitute over Taunt is perfectly viable as well (very much my own fault for not mentioning this in my original nom), turning some of those more iffy set-up options like Weezing and the like into sure things. With this set you can also afford to drop some speed and run a Careful nature, I like 252 HP / 236 SpD / 16 Spe for base for the rare base 60, and renders mons such as Vileplume unable to break your sub in one go. Sub also turns any passive water type into free setup (your Prinplups, Lanturns, Mantines, Pelippers, etc.) free from fear of Scald burn. Of course, you give up the utility of Taunt on a set like this and open yourself up to phasing, but from a self supporting sweeper standpoint, Sub might actually be the more dangerous option because it makes you much harder to revenge kill assuming you can get a sub on something that needs at least 2 hits, all the while still being able to dodge status. You give up something with each set, but they both have their fair share of positives to compensate.

3. Again, its hard to argue against the point that Vig excels against bulkier team archetypes where setup options are plentiful. It's not entirely deadweight against HO, but I won't say it doesn't have a harder matchup for sure. Still, there are some common HO mons that don't appreciate Vigoroth. Vivillon, for example has a mere 37.1% chance to 2HKO Vig from +1 with a standard spread and the Taunt spread I listed. With the Sub spread I listed, it has a 55.5% chance at +1 and only if rocks have been set. Otherwise, or failing a boost, it can't 2HKO at all and is 2HKOd in return (no pun intended). Something like Samurott would need a boost beforehand to pose a threat to you, (252+ Atk Life Orb Samurott Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 125-148 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock), and I think you'll find it's a similar story for many offensive threats that lack a super-effective move to hit you, or rely on a boost to do significant damage. From full, even something as powerful as Tauros has to be careful in their approach as

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 165-196 (45.3 - 53.8%)

+

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 110-133 (30.2 - 36.5%)

is a net total of 75.5%-90.3%, failing to 2HKO and allowing you to boost to your hearts content in a 1v1 scenario. Archeops is in a similar boat if it doesn't pack the Taunt. I will absolutely give you that Fighting-Types are a problem to this thing, but I'd argue that Fighting-Types are a problem to damn near everything that can't resist their colorful coverage, Sawk in particular. Still, the fact that you can invite in something so powerful is definitely something to consider. The likes of Chan and Sawk aren't going to want to come in directly too many times though as even an unboosted Return is doing upwards of 40% to both, and can even 2HKO Chan 58.6% of the time with no rocks. Combusken is also 3HKOd and outsped before a boost, so it doesn't want to come in directly either and must Protect on top of that in order to not be crippled/KOd, and the potential for Sub makes it a pretty shaky answer all around. And that's Eviolite, as Orb is cleanly 2HKOd, while failing to OHKO that sub variant I mentioned if Special. Yama will lose to a sub variant that can snag a boost before it comes in, as Knock Off can't break the sub at +1 and will eventually lower its defenses enough to be picked off after only 2 CCs + 1 round of rocks, dealing a min of 96% with +1 Return. For a cost of only 50% of your health, that's not bad. Yama has nothing to fear vs Taunt variants, however, and Gurdurr, and Wrath are more or less free to do as they please.

As for other offensive threats that I didn't cover, Jynx and Sceptile both pose an issue if they run Focus Blast, but are otherwise susceptible to going 1 for 1 with you. For clarifications sake, I mean that Vig will get the KO but be left so low that almost anything can revenge you if you don't switch. AV Mag is in the same boat, facing a 3HKO from Return while 3HKOing back with Fire Blast. Focus Blast variants will lose to Taunt Vig with rocks support, because AV for the most part does not run max speed and is outsped. Life Orb is a problem however, scoring the 2HKO and outspeeding you. Life Orb Pyroar is stalled out via recoil, and can at best burn you with Will-O. Scarf is stalled out of Fire Blasts, and Hyper Voice is a 4HKO against the Taunt spread. Specs has a small chance of coming out on top (and I do mean small, you'd need 5 to 6 max rolls in a row, with no misses) before otherwise being stalled out of Fire Blasts, while Flamethrower is a 3HKO. All the while, Pyroar faces a 2HKO after one round of rocks. Lilligant probably fares the best, able to potentially 2HKO you at +1 while avoiding a 2HKO in return thanks to Giga Drain recovery, so we can give this matchup to Lilligant unless they misplay. Ludicolo has a 3.9% chance at the 2HKO without Rain + Hydro, and Taunt prevents that in a 1v1 situation. From there, Ludi is stalled out of Hydros or set up bait if they try to Drain. SD Scyther should lose in the long run if I've done my calculations correctly. It's essentially a race to +6, but Scyther starts too weak to deal any significant damage and Vig is capable of healing off the damage as you set up along side it. It's risky because of Crit potential, but barring that Vig comes out on top if you just set up and Slack Off where appropriate. Rocks skew this heavily in Vigs favor. Banded Scyther is a 3HKO on Vig, nuff said. LO Cacturne needs Drain Punch and/or an SD before getting Taunted to win. The list goes on and on, I'd hardly say it's deadweight VS other playstyles beyond fat. It's harder to pressure than you say, because with just one Bulk Up we see some of these 2HKOs turn into 3HKOs, and those 3HKOs eventually become 4HKOs, and so on. So while both variants have answers, you'd best be quick about it lol.

4. Fighting-Types are and have been pretty much THE defining threats in NU for some time now. I do think that it's worth noting that Vig can almost always do something in almost any matchup, and even has a few tricks up its sleeve to help it beat some of its own checks, as shown above. And none of those scenarios require godlike play or anything either, I've played them out firsthand many times and I'm basically ass. I can't deny the possibility that somewhere out there someone has made a team of 6 mons that Vig can't do anything to, but I used Vig exclusively (well, about 85-90%) during the NLT tour recently, and was astounded by its overall performance. Very seldom did it go worse than 1-1 in a given match, and so many times it just won after its checks (frequently as little Ghost type + Sawk, might I add) had been removed. Even during finals, during one game I brought Vigoroth vs Trade, and after a certain point in the match the combination of Vigoroth + Gourgeist just won, with 4 mons left on his side. I mention the partner I chose, because the weaknesses you presented are certainly valid and need to be carefully considered, but as the description of C (and to a lesser extent, B) "the negative characteristics are something to weigh against their positives." Being weak to Fighting is definitely a negative, no debate there. The question here, is does that really effect how I'm going to build my team, or put any significant strain on my teambuilding process? For me personally, and many others, not really. With Sawk and fighting types being every bit as defining as you said, you'd have to be some kind of madman to not carry some sort of fighting check, sometimes both an offensive and defensive on styles like balance. Vig isn't exactly out here losing to niche mons, so while its weaknesses are something to consider, I don't think they should banish it to D rank. There are plenty of things even in the upper echelons of this list that get bodied by Sawk, but as we know through use and experience, what they offer in return is worth the risk.

In fact, I'd argue that the fact that no matter what set you use, the fact that you can't touch Ghosts is a much bigger hindrance on the teambuilding process than its fighting weakness. Rotom-N is particularly infuriating, being not only annoying to Vig itself but many, many other mons in general, especially those that you would want to partner with Vig. Because most Ghosts are frail, or otherwise stopped by Taunt variants, its too much of a stretch in my book to say that you NEED something like say, a pursuit trapper, though it's appreciated. Even still, there's no getting around the fact that Vigoroth literally can not touch the likes of Mismagius, Rotom-N, and Golurk, none of which are too uncommon.

5. As a setup sweeper that relies on its physical attacking stats and lacks grass coverage, I definitely can't argue that it loses to Quagsire 1v1 9/10 times. With Taunt though you can at the very least prevent recovery, allowing you to switch into a more suitable answer while keeping Quag whittled. This is something that many setup sweepers wish they could do, because Quag is just so damn resilient. I don't think that its inability to beat Quagsire really hinders it that much compared to any other physical setup mon, and I'd argue that it can even do a little more than you might expect a physical sweeper to do because it can prevent the recover. Quag is annoying to be sure, but if its fair to say that you can just apply the pressure to Vig I think its just as fair to say that Quag suffers from a similar issue when facing a Vig squad. As for the rest of the staple stall mons, I didn't really see you saying that Taunt Vig doesn't smash them completely, so I'll assume we can agree on that point. Beating Mushy and to a lesser extent MAudino with ease are huge boons to any mon IMO. There are other options, to be sure, but very few that can turn a potential sweep into a sweep in your favor instead, all the while remaining healthy enough to check them indefinitely. And I absolutely do not mean to take anything away from either player you mentioned, but one example of Vig losing to stall doesn't invalidate the fact that the stallbreaker variant is a huge annoyance to deal with for that playstyle. The fact is that VS full stall, the stall player is at a disadvantage from the very start by Vigs presence alone, and has to play a very particular way to avoid being outright swept, or at the very least whittled to the point where something else can finish the job.

that is an impressive wall of text imo, Disjunction would be proud . im gonna try and address this one step at a time so bear with me. about the point where i was talking about mantine, i was just reffering to how even though mons are different, some mons in certain ranks are just objectively better than the other mons in its rank (a good example is like how hitmonchan is just kinda better than something like ferroseed, even though they have the same rank and perform different roles. a lot of meta changes aren't enough to raise/lower a pokemon's viability to a new rank, but are enough to where they're either the best or the worst in their actual subrank.) it was just kind of a passing mention and not entirely relevant to the actual discussion so i apologize if it came of as such.

about sub variants, while they may fix the problems of taunt variants, they also open up some new problems of their own. the problems are mainly that you open yourself up to opposing bulky boosters setting up alongside you (musharna, SD rocks rhydon), as well as the fact that without any passive recovery, you're wearing yourself down a lot quicker than you would if you had any form of passive recovery (which compounds when you consider hazards / switching into moves etc). i agree that it's kind of a pain that both sets have different answers, but its not like the kinds of mons that beat each set are super uncommon to be paired together on builds.

i was talking with some friends about it, and it think the main thing that it boils down to is that the NU meta isn't super kind to it. i know you addressed the whole thing about ghost types, but i'd definitely go as far to saying that it absolutely needs pursuit support. rotom is one of the most common mons in the metagame right now, and especially with bulky variants being as common as they are (bulky variants have much more survivability) they make it so that you're pretty much playing at a disadvantage the whole match. all this being said, i feel like the main reason why the NU environment isn't great for vigoroth is that it's incredibly reliant on it's eviolite in order to maintain it's bulk. knock off is really prevalent in NU and it kind of just compounds the point about fighters tbh. once vig loses its eviolite, it p much loses its ability to set up on defensive mons and therefore its utility. again im saying that it deserves a rank, but anything above C- would just seem like overkill. however, if you had some good replays of vig tho i'd definitely be open to changing my mind.

e: i forgot to mention the opportunity cost that comes with running it over another normal type like pyroar / tauros / kang, but i dont think i need to fully explain just know i mentioned it oo.

 

[tcr]

Mesprit A --> A+

Mesprit is imo super good right now. It's one of the best glues that can be put on a team, checking Sawk / Weezing / Garbodor / Hariyama / etc.
It can even check things like Sceptile, since it commonly runs Ice Beam, allowing it to deal ~70% minimum to Life orb Sceptile, which is really good (less if you run a more defensively inclined spread). Its ability to support its team is kinda unmatched right now, allowing things like Sceptile and Samurott to run havoc through teams in the early game and using Healing Wish for a fresh start. Its really hard to switch into offensive sets since it has the potential to run a shitton of coverage moves like Ice Beam / Signal Beam / HP Ground / HP Fight / Thunderbolt / Energy Ball / Shadow Ball etc, and can run tons of things like U-turn / Healing Wish / Trick / Thunder Wave to fuck with things that might want to switch in. Its good to deal with Fighters, especially since teams can struggle to find a good offensive option that simultaneously deals with Sawk. The support this mon requires is extremely minimal, it doesn't really compete with other Pokemon for a spot like things like Rhydon / Steelix do. In fact it often can just be customized to teams to deal with random things, like running different coverage moves or using moves from its limitless support movepool.

I think its time that his mon moves up, I really don't think that it should be in the same tier as Lanturn or Vivillon, both of which have kinda fall off from their previous presence. It's definitely up there as a staple on some of my teams, and can be easily thrown onto teams like Steelix or Pyroar can.

 

[Cheryl.]

Wait Mesprit runs Ice Beam when did this happen :o

I'd like to nominate a mon who I think has been deserving a rise lately, and that is...

Jynx!!!
Okay, so yeah, I think Jynx is an A+ mon. Why? Well, I'll tell you, children. Jynx has gotten better this meta, as Water types are everywhere, allowing it to take advantage of Dry Skin more effectively, and it's Scarf set allows it to revenge a shitton of mons, like Archeops, Sawk that has it's Sturdy broken, Sceptile, and even Swellow. it's also a great late-game cleaner, once it's checks and counters are weakened or eliminated. Lovely Kiss is also amazing, too, as it cripples a mon of Jynx's choosing and can make the sleeping mon vulnerable to attacks from Jynx or it's teammates, and Nasty Plot Jynx can just set up on the sleeping mon and destroy it. Life Orb Jynx is also really good as it can break bulkier teams really easy with Lovely Kiss and her Ice/Psychic STAB combination. Sash Jynx is also pretty cool against offense to sleep a mon and it's immune to AJet so that's nice. Also, the rise of specially offensive mons like Swellow also helps Jynx a bit as she can take advantage of her Special Defense stat to tank one or two hits, which can mean a lot, although her bulk still sucks lol. Overall, while Jynx does have apparent problems like her low defensive stats and average speed tier when not holding a Scarf, she's still a threat to basically every playstyle due to her variety of sets that can break either offense or bulky teams, her cool ability in Dry Skin which makes her a great emergency check to things like Samurott, and her amazing power overall, as Ice is just a god-like offensive typing to have right now. And that is why I think Jynx deserves a rise to A+. Thank you for listening, and goodnight.

 

[tmacbalanced]

Pawniard from C+ to C

As far as I'm concerned, this pokemon doesn't do any of it's jobs that well. It doesn't really do it's job well when it comes punishing defog considering the fact that d-users tend to run scald or a fire move like fire blast and some of them like Pelipper run roost, so they aren't getting warn down that easily. It's slow and not that bulky enough to get away with being slow. It does have sucker punch to make for the speed but, there are pokemon that can get pass that like aqua jet samurott, substitute sceptile, lovely kiss jynx, etc.
It is nice to have knock off though. Also, since clefairy is getting a bit of love lately, this guy is a nice answer to it.

 

[Disjunction]

Got some noms for you guys to chew on.

Drops:

A+ --> A

If Tauros was moved down because of the relevance of Steelix and the shifting speed tiers, Archeops should as well. I still believe that Archeops is a step behind Tauros in this meta because of its Rock weakness, Defeatist, and inferior bulk. I've already written a huge fuckin essay on the many intricacies of Archeops, so I'll abstain from making another novel, but you can check out my previous post here. The biggest difference between Archeops and Tauros right now is Archeops's ability to "reliably" 2HKO Steelix with Focus Blast or Heat Wave, but I'd like to bring to attention the fact that Tauros can 2HKO Steelix with Fire Blast with either a little prior damage or even minimal Special Attack investment. These two remain very similar in their wallbreaking capabilities, but I believe Tauros still has the upper hand.

B --> C+

I know a lot of you guys really like Jumpluff, but I think it's gotten much much worse lately. Firstly, Sceptile almost completely outclasses it as a physical Grass-type, sporting a more relevant Speed tier, an arguably better typing, superior bulk, and two more useful abilities. Jumpluff sports some tools over it, such as U-turn, Memento, and Sleep Powder, but I'd argue if it didn't have those tools it should just go unranked. Additionally, its more useful niche of last meta, being a Flying-type sweeper that beats Rhydon and Lanturn, is much less relevant because of the decline in usage of these two threats.

B --> B-

Originally I wanted to nominate Quagsire for C+ because I felt it was the most useless bulky Water-type we have in the tier. However, QueenOfLuvdiscs was able to sway me to at least keep it in the B Ranks because of its ability to check some remaining relevant mons, such as Rhydon, Malamar, and Jynx (requires a bit of Special bulk investment). However, it's one of the biggest momentum sucks in the tier and invites in the scariest sweeper/wallbreaker in the tier, Sceptile. It only fits well on very bulky teams which are still pretty subpar.

B --> B-

I know we recently dropped this, but I'd like to see it dropped a bit more. Zangoose is by no means a bad wallbreaker, but I think most players would prefer to use one that doesn't require as much support, preparation, or is as susceptible to whittle. Tauros, Swellow, and Kangaskhan may not have as much explosive power as Zangoose, but what they do have over it is the perk of standalone consistency. All three of them are powerful enough without the need for Pursuit support, slow pivots, or fear of whittling themselves down. Zangoose is far from consistent or splashable nowadays, so I'd be way in favor of dropping it.

B- --> C+/C

Pretty similar to Rhydon in the regard that there's a huge opportunity cost associated with running this mon right now when you consider you can just run Steelix. However, I think the biggest negative associated with Regirock is how passive it is. Essentially any Rock-resistant mon can switch into Regirock fearing, at worst, a Toxic and threaten it out. Hell, Steelix switches into this thing free of charge. I haven't thought of Regirock as especially great since the Typhlosion meta, and it's only gotten worse as time goes on.

B- --> C+

I'm not going to write a big paragraph on this. The most common Rocker in the tier, Steelix, takes a total shit on this thing. HexTom is also one of the most common balance breakers in the tier. Linoone is not very good anymore.

D --> E

I think soulgazer brought up something like this a while ago, but he doesn't put a lot of effort into his posts anymore, so we might have accidentally ignored it? Long story short, this thing is completely worthless. Any time you could think "hey I should use Simisage" you want to use Sceptile because Simisage is inferior in every way. On top of that, it's not even good because its speed tier is pretty awful for what it wants to do, it's not that strong, and it has pretty lacking coverage outside of Focus Blast.

D --> E

Unranking this was a point of discussion in the previous big update, but I think we decided to keep it because it could still check stuff like Klinklang and Vivillon over Rhydon. Steelix is now the superior Flying- and Steel-type check with a much more relevant niche. I don't know of any relevant Pokemon that Stunfisk beats anymore that you couldn't run something else for.

D --> E

Regular Audino is effectively worthless right now because, if you're running Mega Audino, you have the ability to take advantage of Regenerator before you mega. Passive recovery with Leftovers is kinda cute, but I would never consider it over the ability to transform into a mon with a superior typing and bulk. At least Lickilicky has Oblivious and physically offensive set to maintain some niche, but Leftovers Audino is objectively worse than Audinite Audino.


Rises:

B --> B+

Mismagius is essentially a Rotom with better Speed, Taunt, and no Volt Switch. Stallbreaker Hex Mismagius is a terror for balance teams to cope with right now because of the threat of either status, Will-O-Wisp or Thunder Wave, or just being flat out broken by Taunt. Honestly, though, I can't stress how nice it is to be able to abuse Taunt. HexTom is able to burn stuff and break it down, but never prevent stuff likes Stealth Rock, Spikes, or status. Mismagius does that and beat some stuff HexTom can't, such as Mega Audino. On top of that, it has a variety of offensive options that it can abuse, such as Dazzling Gleam and Thunderbolt. I think Missy is very under-appreciated right now and I'd like to see it get some love.

B --> B+

I think someone else brought this up, but I'll talk it up a little. Barb is one of the few Water-type setup sweepers that doesn't completely hate the presence of Sceptile in our tier. Other Water-types, such as Samurott, Kabutops, and even Ludicolo, can be revenge killed by one variant of Sceptile or another. Barbaracle, on the other hand, has the ability to OHKO every relevant variant of Sceptile at +2. Barb is also able to outspeed every relevant Choice Scarf user without even needing a Jolly nature. Definitely a powerhouse sweeper right now, in my opinion.

C- --> C+

I ran this in OU and it 1v1'd a +1 Special Attack Porygon-Z. I'm serious.

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 125-147 (36.3 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 165-195 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO

Jokes aside, though, Clefairy makes a really great check to just about every Special Attacker in the tier and sports some amazing defensive utility with access to stuff like Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, Healing Wish, and even Calm Mind. Magic Guard means it's one of the few bulky mons in NU that isn't bothered by hazards or status, as well. The fact that I can throw this mon on a team and call it my dedicated Fire resist is a testament to its strength.

252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 150-177 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 121-144 (35.1 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


I'll make a post later talking about some of the noms that have been brought up. Just wanted to get my own noms out there.

 

[GyRro]

sup nerds

Rises:
Sceptile A+ --> S
Steelix A --> A+
Swellow A --> A+
Weezing B+ --> A-
Pelipper B --> B+
Piloswine B --> B+
Mantine C- --> C
Clefairy Unranked --> C-
Sliggoo Unranked --> C-
Glalie Unranked --> D

Drops:
Rhydon S --> A+
Tauros S --> A+
Lanturn A+ --> A
Carracosta A- --> B
Floatzel A- --> B
Klinklang A- --> B
Zangoose B+ --> B
Mawile B+ --> B-
Metang C --> D
Servine C- --> D
Ditto C- --> E

Little overdue on this one so I apologize. Love to see the activity here, though, so let's keep it up guys!

Completely agree with almost all of these! The only one I disagree on is dropping Tauros. Obviously being outsped by Sceptile is annoying now, but it can still usually 2HKO Steelix with f blast, unless it has the 128spD ev spread. And Rhydon dropping because of Steelix's return is also handy for it. There isn't really anything else that has effected Tauros' effectiveness since the drops too much. I suppose it just comes down to how much you think Sceptile effects it. Completely agree with the rest of them though! Nice one taking the time to think about so many pokes in the new meta Dis!

Dis edit: editing this in to say we talked on ps and he just wants to nominate Tauros for S. nobody needs to respond to this unless it's to discuss the nom

 

[Davon]

B- -> B

Ninetales is really great in this metagame. The metagame has become alot less offensive and we're seeing cores like Yama-Lix again. Ninetales excels at busting these fat cores with its great coverage options in Psychock / Fire Blast / Energy Ball or even HP Electric since Mantine and Pelipper have dramatically increased in usage. Rotom has seen alot of usage as of late and usually Rotom can get away with spamming Will-O-Wisp and Hex, but Ninetales can switch into Will-O-Wisp easily and obtain a Flash Fire boost which allows Rotom to be OHKO'd by Fire Blast. Usually Magmortars run Flame Charge instead of Earthquake now which just gives Ninetales another setup opportunity.

The +1 boost is from Flash Fire: +1 252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Rotom: 244-288 (100.8 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Silver Aurum]

--> B+

Okay so I most definitely support a rise to B+ for Articuno right now. I don't want to spend too long reiterating the points Punchshroom made in his nomination so I'll keep this short. Articuno's dual STAB pretty much destroys fatter balance cores that have been growing in popularity as of late. Being an offensive check to Sceptile is also a huge upside to using this thing as you aren't forced to run slower defensively oriented Pokemon like Skuntank, Vileplume, Clefairy, Weezing, and Sliggoo etc to deal with Sceptile. Articuno's speed tier is still mediocre and its 4x weakness to rocks is a bummer, but it just has too many upsides in this meta to not be ranked higher in my opinion.

 

[doomsday doink]

--> B+

Okay so I most definitely support a rise to B+ for Articuno right now. I don't want to spend too long reiterating the points Punchshroom made in his nomination so I'll keep this short. Articuno's dual STAB pretty much destroys fatter balance cores that have been growing in popularity as of late. Being an offensive check to Sceptile is also a huge upside to using this thing as you aren't forced to run slower defensively oriented Pokemon like Skuntank, Vileplume, Clefairy, Weezing, and Sliggoo etc to deal with Sceptile. Articuno's speed tier is still mediocre and its 4x weakness to rocks is a bummer, but it just has too many upsides in this meta to not be ranked higher in my opinion.

I would like to second this for entirely different reasons that many of you guys may have had the misfortune of enduring. RIP your PP.

 

[Evan.]

I think that Articuno is fine where its at in B. While its definitely true that its a threat in the right build, the support required and utter lack of splashability makes it seem like B+ is a bit of a stretch. You can't just throw Articuno on a team when you're halfway through or just finishing a build, you have to actively build around it. While this may be true with other mons ranked above it like vivillon, vivillon acts as a solid win condition, which makes it easier to build around. Cuno isn't really a win condition in itself, which means that you'll usually have add one in later. Its also difficult to build around because Ice/Flying typing doesnt really offer any good resistances outside of the grass resist for scept, which means that you're usually gonna be hard pressed to check the mons you need to check with the remaining 5 slots (especially since you need to fit hazard removal into the whole scheme of things).

tl:dr: articuno is an effective mon in the current meta, but the inherint lack of splashability makes it a B-rank mon imo

e: inherent. fuck dice

 

[erisia]

A+ > A: Agree: Lilligant is a threatening setup sweeper as always, but Sceptile's introduction gives it a huge amount of competition for the role of offensive Grass-type on your team. Unlike other Grass-types such as Shiftry and Vileplume, Lilligant does not form a good core with Sceptile due to its lack of coverage to get around other Pokémon and its lack of niche outside of sweeping. Furthermore, anyone who prepares for Sceptile is usually prepared for Lilligant, again due to its lack of strong coverage and because bulky responses to Grass-types are becoming more popular, such as Sliggoo, due to Sceptile's Speed making revenge-killing difficuly. Lilligant is still good but I reckon it fits in A-rank alongside Vivillon in that it requires more support now to be effective, and has a bigger opportunity-cost associated with it.

C > C+: Agree: Mantine has a lot of disadvantages compared to Pelipper, particularly the lack of Roost, Hurricane, and U-Turn, but its raw special bulk means it makes a more effective defensive-core with Steelix, one of the most popular mons in the meta at the moment. This alone makes it worthy of C+ in my opinion since, with Steelix being one of the most splashable Pokémon out there, Mantine's own splashability increases accordingly.

A > A+: Disagree: Mesprit is still one of the most versatile Pokémon in the metagame, but I don't think it's really improved in this meta. Steelix isn't bothered by the physically defensive set at all, as Mesprit lacks common coverage to break through it (252 SpA Energy Ball/Ice Beam is barely a 4HKO) and Steelix can just Toxic it if it tries to Calm Mind. As said earlier it can run an absolute ton of coverage moves, but due to its lack of power and moveslots, once you find out what Mesprit is running, it's fairly easy to deal with. Just don't do things like leave your Malamar in when it switches in.

A > A+: Disagree: Jynx can be really threatening for teams that can't deal with it due to Lovely Kiss and STAB Psyshock to hit the tier's primary switch-in to sleep, AV Magmortar. However, like Vivillon and Lilligant, it still requires a lot of team support to be effective. If it runs a Sash, it needs consistent hazard removal to avoid being revenge-killed by faster threats or priority attackers, and if it runs Scarf, it still needs hazard removal to be able to switch in and function throughout the match. I still don't really see the appeal of Scarf given how easily its STABs can be walled by really threatening mons (Magmortar into Ice Beam, Malamar into Psyshock) putting offensive teams on the back foot, it's vulnerability to Sucker Punch / Pursuit, its lack of U-Turn/Volt Switch/Baton Pass, its SR weakness etc. Jynx fits right next to Vivillon in my opinion, in that they're both potentially lethal, but need team support to find opportunities to switch in and/or set up, and struggle against offense teams with faster threats until they are removed.

 

[Realistic Waters]

Adding on from teddeh's post in np: NU stage 10 thread

I'm gonna defend Scarf Scyther too ;~; sorry Kay for going against you. I don't know if it's just me but I really would just rather use Scarf Scyther, even if it's not got infiltrator (i've rarely seen this come into play), stronger U-turn (it's only slightly and Scyther makes up for it with a technician Aerial Ace and useful coverage but I just think you seem to be downplaying Scyther a little bit so I guess I should go into a little detail. :v

• Speed tiers

508 / Scyther / 105 / +Spe / 252 / +1
478 / Ludicolo / 70 / Neutral / 252 / +2
475 / Primeape, Jynx, Haunter, Sawsbuck / 95 / +Spe / 252 / +1
470 / Barbacle / 68 / Neutral / 252 / +2
463 / Rotom / 91 / +Spe / 252 / +1
460 / Ninjask / 160 / +Spe / 252 / 0
459 / Lilligant / 90 / +Spe / 252 / +1
458 / Sandslash / 65 / Neutral / 252 / +2
458 / Golurk / 55 / +Spe / 252 / +2
457 / Lilligant [Hidden Power Fire] / 90 / +Spe / 252 / +1
456 / Vivillon / 89 / +Spe / 252 / +1
447 / Rotom-F, Rotom-S / 86 / +Spe / 252 / +1
446 / Gorebyss, Huntail / 52 / +Spe / 252 / +2
442 / Sawk / 85 / +Spe / 252 / +1
430 / Aurorus / 58 / Neutral / 252 / +2
426 / Mesprit / 80 / +Spe / 252 / +1
422 / Torterra / 56 / Neutral / 252 / +2
419 / Ninkask / 160 / Neutral / 252 / 0

Adamant shouldn't really be considered while because you miss out on too many important trends and then Jolly Jask still misses out on outspeeding Scarf Rotom, weather mons, and fast scarf users. I feel assured that im able to U-turn out or use appropriate coverage moves to deal with these threats not risking being outspeed and ohko'd when using Ninjask.

• Useful/stronger coverage. Knock off isn't certainly beating Steelix, but by removing it's recovery, it's limiting it's amount of switch ins it can make. And there's it's general utility to remove other recovery items and eviolite. Scyther's Aerial Ace is also stronger even without a Choice Band and is able to take out Hariyama from full. (50% chance really but it beats Hariyama 1v1)

It's also handy to get a few surpise KO's with Scarf Knock off an unsuspecting Rotom's. Scyther just like ninjask also has a free moveslot since. Reversal pretty neat for steelix for when your at 1% thanks to stealth rocks or there's stuff bug bite, quick attack and tailwind.
252 Atk Scyther Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom: 234-276 (97 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

• Actually able to switch into attacks/worry less about priority moves even without eviolite. For example Ninjask fails to even switch into Banded Sawk's close combat without being 2HKO'd. 61/45/50 is getting you no where. A lot of the times when using ninjask your forcing yourself out because of strong prority attacks not having any real bulk.

Random Attacks/Priority Moves:
252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ninjask: 145-171 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ninjask: 222-264 (84.4 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ninjask: 289-341 (109.8 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Black Glasses Liepard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ninjask: 223-264 (84.7 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ninjask: 129-153 (49 - 58.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ninjask: 255-302 (96.9 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Skuntank Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ninjask: 211-250 (80.2 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Scyther's actaully able to stomach most hits so it's not really facing this problem. Overall I'm not saying Ninjask is bad but in most regards Scarf Scyther is still better in this meta.

 

[pizzaguy88]

get it up to a/a-
Torterra is tooo strong for b+ when u consider all the potential it has High oattt stat amazing defensive stats, has a lot of underated sets like the avest one
252+ SpA Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Torterra: 294-348 (74.6 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Technician Scyther Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Torterra: 276-326 (83.3 - 98.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Combusken Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Torterra: 206-246 (52.2 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Torterra: 315-374 (79.9 - 94.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(315, 320, 322, 328, 330, 335, 338, 343, 346, 351, 354, 359, 361, 367, 369, 374)
it has a list of vialble sets making it one of the most versatile grass types in the tier, it also has acess to swords dance and rock polish, its a decent match up against all s ranked mons if samurott and sawk lack ice coverage.
so it belongs in a rank imo.


Also can we bring scyther down to A rank it the introduction of steelix has not been good for it and i just dont see how its A+ worthy anymore

 

[toreutic]

Thoughts on our smashers after drops.

Barbaracle B > B+
Carracosta B > B-

These two noms basically go hand in hand. With king sceptile now running the streets, it's extremely important to be able to outspeed arguably NU's greatest threat after a shell smash. These two often compete with each other for a team slot, but with the prevalence of scept now in the tier, barb more often than not is the superior choice. While scept comfortable eats up costa's +2 jet, barb's +2 return is an easy OHKO.

Steelix, another hugely influential drop, is another mon which favors barb over costa. Some calcs for reference:

+2 252 Atk Carracosta Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Steelix: 248-294 (70 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Steelix: 326-386 (92 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Mega Steelix Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 204-243 (70.3 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ Atk Mega Steelix Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 168-199 (57.9 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see, in a 1v1 situation, costa loses to steelix while barb more often than not will come out on top. Whether costa runs herb or shuca, it will die to two earthquakes as steelix can live +2 waterfall comfortably, while barb can take a hit with shuca, and OHKO back.

Yes, costa can run a mixed/special set, but then samurott and lanturn are both able to stop your sweep, and fully physical is arguably the most common set.

Some other reasons why I think barb in general is a great mon and deserves a rise on it's own anyways:

• Barb has a range of cool coverage options which let it beat its various checks. EQ to avoid aftermath and destroy lanturn, grass knot to bop quag, cross chop for seed, etc.
• Barb is fast enough to run a fun lure scarf set to get surprise KOs on things that try to stop you from setting up, and even has access to switcheroo to cripple walls that try to switch in
• Barb in comparison to costa, doesn't have to rely on stone edge hitting as +2 return with the tough claws boost is just as strong as neutral stone edge
• Though uncommon, Barb has various support options as well (sash endeavor rocks, taunt, switcheroo as previously mentioned)

Anyhow, hope this post is coherent enough to understand.

 

[shiloh]

**A -> S

Might seem like a big jump in viability, but Rotom is 100% worthy of S Rank in this meta imo. The Hex set is probably the best balance breaker in the tier, as it has such an easy time getting around its own checks and counters. On most Balance teams these are mons like Lanturn and Steelix, which are easily beaten by the Hex set. Rotom is one of the scarriest and under prepared mons to face in the current meta, and this is shown by a huge amount of recent tour matches, the most recent one I can remember being Shaneghoul vs Realistic Waters for NUL [Game 1, 2, 3].

In the games, Rotom makes an appearance in all of them, and is always able to be a threat to the opposing team. In Game 1, Shaneghoul is the one who brings it and right from the start its easy to tell that it would put in a lot of work against Water's team. Since his electric resist is Steelix, it does not want to come in on a Wisp as it is then 2HKOd by Hex and can't even damage it back as Rotom resists both of Steelix's STABs. In the game Shane uses it to wear down the Articuno, which would have lead to Sceptile putting in more work late game but instead he swept with Barbaracle. In Game 2 both players bring Rotom, and right from the start its obvious how threatening they are to each other. However Waters does have a Pyroar which is one of the few checks to Rotom as it isn't affected by Wisp or Hex, but it still is worn down very easily by rocks + volt switch damage. One Shane's side, his best way to handle the opposing Rotom is switching into Sceptile, which is only really a one time switch in since Burn Damage + Hex kill it after rocks. Water's ends up using his Bulkier Rotom set with Pain Split to take care of the Garbodor, Samurott, and Scyther leading to a late game Specs Sceptile sweep. Even with his bad match up, Shane is able to use his Rotom to take care of a threat to his team in Piloswine. In Game Three, Shane once again brings a Rotom, and it puts in large amounts of work for his team. While there is a Pyroar, he is still able to beat the opposing Steelix, threaten out Vileplume multiple times even at low health, and late game check the Sawk showing its worth as a Balance breaker.

In terms of checks / counters to Rotom, there are really only two hard counters in the tier: Mega Audino and Camerupt. Out of these, only Mega Audino is viable enough to be considered a common mon in the metagame, and even then it can't just be thrown onto teams as its a very big momentum sap for playstyles like offense and some forms of balance. Other checks to the Hex set are mons like Pyroar, Magmortar, Skuntank, and Shiftry. None of which have reliable recovery and can't switch in multiple times due to Wisp buring up the Lum Berry the first time around on Skuntank / Shiftry. Also while Pyroar / Magmortar aren't affected by Wisp, options in the 4th slot are there to hit them. A new move I've started running is Discharge, as it gives Rotom a reliable Electric STAB while also giving it another way to Status the opponent. It also allows it to beat things like Sceptile that try to switch in on Hex / Volt Switch, only to take a Discharge.

There are also multiple viable Rotom sets that contribute to its viablity and threat level in NU. These are: Hex + Spel Tag, Defensive, Scarf, and Sub. Defensive is able to handle most common Normals / Flyings / and Steel Types in the tier due to its Typing and Bulk once invested. Scarf is a threat to a lot of teams that lack Electric resists, as it has a very easy job to just wear down the opposing team with continued attacks and the ability to cripple defensive mons with Trick. The last set is probably something a lot less people know about, and its a set I've started to use and I'm probably one of the few that use it. The set is Hex / Substitute / Will-o-wisp / Discharge with Max Speed and either Max HP or Attack. Rotom is able to set up Subs on things like Steelix, Lanturn, Weezing, Scyther, and other threatening Physical and Special attackers. From there it is able to basically annoy and rack up damage very quickly against the opposing team.

Rotom also provides a key role on offensive teams as an Anti-Hazard Removal mon. Due to its Typing it can reliably switch into Rapid Spinners due to its Normal Immunity, and threaten common spinners like Hitmonchan and Kabutops with Will-o-wisp, making sure they can't spin during the match. It also is able to beat common Defoggers like Mantine and Pelipper, due to its threatening Electric STAB. Even though it can't prevent them from defogging, it punishes the opponenet for not switching out to something that can handle Rotom, or going for Scald to get the burn. This could mean Rotom can get a free Wisp off, or just Volt Switch to grab momentum.

Overall I do believe Rotom is one of the most threatening and under prepared mons in the meta, and its ranking should reflect this, which is why I am suggesting to move it up to S right away instead of waiting a week or two for it to be put in A+.