Lower Tiers ORAS NU Viability Rankings

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Welcome to the official NU Viability Ranking thread. These rankings have been revamped to meet a new stricter set of criteria as to avoid over inflation and Pokemon being placed in a rank that doesn't denote their appropriate abilities. The concept of this thread is that we will organize the Pokemon in our tier into ranks, varying on how good they are. You are encouraged to post your thoughts on where Pokemon should be ranked. Please note that each section is going to be in alphabetical order; getting any more precise than that isn't really worth the effort when trends change all the time.

The NU Viability Council will consider points brought up in this thread and decide which to implement and which to leave alone; you can find a list of all the council members here:

To make ranking these Pokemon easier the NU Viability Council has come up with a list of positive and negative attributes each Pokemon should meet to fit a certain rank. Positives: Threat level, Splashability, Consistent, Effect on the metagame, Reliability. Negatives: Passive, Outclassed, Weak to Hazards, Speed, General Bulk, Matchup. However, something to remember while ranking is that filling criteria is not a black and white process. Pokemon A might have a stronger effect on the metagame compared to Pokemon B, but Pokemon B might still influence teambuilding a lot. Take into account the varying degrees of these criteria as you reflect on a nomination.

Please do not bandwagon post. Unless you have new or different experiences to share, you are defending a nomination, or if the nomination has not been discussed for ~3 days, try to avoid repeating the same information someone else said before you. Posts asking for your favorite Pokemon to jump ranks and don't fill the above criteria will be deleted. Lastly, if you are nominating an unranked Pokemon to be ranked, you must provide replays to back up your argument.

If you click on a sprite it will take you to the Smogon dex page :)

NU Rankings

S Rank:
Pokemon in this rank fill all of the main criteria and then some with a strong proficiency in one or more of the positive traits. If a Pokemon in this rank has any downsides, they are usually tame or eclipsed by their obvious assets.
:Mesprit: Mesprit​
:Tauros: Tauros​
:Vileplume: Vileplume​
:Xatu: Xatu​

A Rank:
Pokemon in this rank may fill the majority or all of the positive criteria. These Pokemon may have one major or a handful of minor negative characteristics that could set them back.
:Archeops: Archeops​
:Rhydon: Rhydon​
:Garbodor: Garbodor​
:Hariyama: Hariyama​
:Rotom: Rotom​
:Steelix: Steelix​
:Barbaracle: Barbaracle​
:Kangaskhan: Kangaskhan​
:Lanturn: Lanturn​
:Liepard: Liepard​
:Magmortar: Magmortar​
:Pelipper: Pelipper​
:Pyroar: Pyroar​
:Shiftry: Shiftry​
:Skuntank: Skuntank​
:Charizard: Charizard​
:Hitmonchan: Hitmonchan​
:Ferroseed: Ferroseed​
:Jynx: Jynx​
:Malamar: Malamar​
:Mantine: Mantine​
:Piloswine: Piloswine​
:Samurott: Samurott​
:Swellow: Swellow​
:Vivillon: Vivillon​
:Weezing: Weezing​

B Rank:
Pokemon in this rank do an alright job fulfilling criteria, albeit not as convincingly. These Pokemon will have some issues you should be accounting for while building your team.
:Audino-Mega: Audino-Mega​
:Aurorus: Aurorus​
:Gurdurr: Gurdurr​
:Clefairy: Clefairy​
:Kabutops: Kabutops​
:Lilligant: Lilligant​
:Ludicolo: Ludicolo​
:Pinsir: Pinsir​
:Gastrodon: Gastrodon​
:Haunter: Haunter​
:Floatzel: Floatzel​
:Mismagius: Mismagius​
:Regirock: Regirock​
:Golurk: Golurk​
:Poliwrath: Poliwrath​
:Scyther: Scyther​
:Torterra: Torterra​
:Abomasnow: Abomasnow​
:Aggron: Aggron​
:Altaria: Altaria​
:Articuno: Articuno​
:Camerupt: Camerupt​
:Miltank: Miltank​
:Quagsire: Quagsire​
:Zangoose: Zangoose​

C Rank:
Pokemon in this rank do a mediocre job at filling criteria. The sizable amount of negative characteristics associated with these Pokemon are something to weigh against their positives before you fit one on a team.
:Bronzor: Bronzor​
:Carracosta: Carracosta​
:Claydol: Claydol​
:Combusken: Combusken​
:Electivire: Electivire​
:Gourgeist: Gourgeist-XL​
:Kecleon: Kecleon​
:Klinklang: Klinklang​
:Omastar: Omastar​
:Primeape: Primeape​
:Victreebel: Victreebel​
:Grumpig: Grumpig​
:Sliggoo: Sliggoo​
:Dusknoir: Dusknoir​
:Kadabra: Kadabra​
:Lapras: Lapras​
:Solrock: Solrock​

D Rank:
Pokemon in this rank have been found to generally be more trouble than they're worth. Any NU or BL4 Pokemon that aren't good enough for a higher rank will go here.
:Cradily: Cradily​
:Linoone: Linoone​
:Manectric: Manectric​
:Musharna: Musharna​
:Throh: Throh​
:Sandslash: Sandslash​
:Vigoroth: Vigoroth​
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Threat level
- How difficult is it to stop this Pokemon offensively and / or defensively?
- What are the best general methods of dealing with it, and how effective are they?
- Does the Pokemon have ways of working around its countermeasures? If so, how much does it have to sacrifice to do so?

- What levels of support are required for this Pokemon to function, and how easy is it to maintain this support on most teams?
- Does it have multiple roles it can fulfill on different teams? If not, does this one role accomplish enough to set it apart from other options?
- What are the roles it fills and how practical are they? Compared to other Pokemon with similar roles, what traits do this Pokemon have over them and how important are these traits?

- How good is this Pokemon at fulfilling its roles? How much do its flaws prevent it from doing its job(s)?
- Is the Pokemon in question potent at most points throughout a battle?
- How useful is it in different matchups? What playstyles does it fare well and poorly against and how dominant are those playstyles?

Effect on the metagame
- What kinds of trends does this Pokemon set? Think about Speed creep or coverage moves that are run specifically (or at least primarily) for this Pokemon.
- Does this Pokemon affect the viability of other Pokemon (both better and worse), and by how much?
- Does this Pokemon threaten a common team archetype?


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OK, so I've cleared out the E Ranks of the 5 mons that were there (Carbink, Delibird, Dusclops, Lampent, and Probopass) because nobody objected to them rising back up to D.

I'm planning on putting out an update soon if I can get a couple of the council members together for discussion. Some points I'd love to hear some more discussion on:
A > A+
A > A+
Zebstrika / Raichu
uh placement in general I guess

some personal noms I think could use some discussion:
A- > B+
B+ > B
B > B-
Cacturne shouldn't drop. If we're comparing it to Shiftry, which I assume we are, Cacturne has tons of notable advantages. Spikes is the biggest way Cacturne sets itself apart from Shiftry, and it's not like this is a minor point in Cacturne's favor because there is no better offensive Spikes setter in the tier. Unlike Crustle, Cacturne doesn't have to be played as a suicide lead, and it remains valuable throughout the entire match thanks to its Water immunity and strong priority. Unlike Garbodor, Cacturne has few to no common reliable switch-ins in the tier.

I've already mentioned Cacturne's Water immunity, but I want to stress how important it is. Cacturne can reliably switch into pretty much every bulky Water-type in the tier and force it out, which is especially relevant because of how few things wall it. You can spend a free turn doubling into a Water-type or switching into a Scald doing massive damage to an opposing Pokemon or getting up a layer of Spikes. Both can be really game changing in different ways, which reinforces the fact that Cacturne has versatility even in one set. Its threat level is massive, and I'd even argue it is easily splashable because of how insanely valuable having a Water immunity can be in any tier. Cacturne's effect on the metagame is the only place where it struggles out of our outlined criteria, but Cacturne more than makes up for it with how influential it is in any given match.

I find Zebstrika to be incredibly underwhelming. There is never a time when I think that my team could really use Zebstrika because its phenomenal Speed is hardly a niche when its damage output is so pathetic. Floatzel and Swellow both offer similarly fantastic Speed without sacrificing power, and other Electric-types can play the role of a fast pivot better. Raichu still ties with Archeops and Tauros, and Scarf Rotom-N and Rotom-S both offer a fast pivot with less hilariously terrible damage output while also offering some sort of defensive utility aside from being able to check Vivillon. I hope it is not lost on anybody that this is all coming from somebody who openly resents the pitiful power of Scarf Rotom-N.

I don't think Mesprit is very good either. It has good coverage, but the important coverage moves it needs to carry are really underwhelming. Signal Beam is horrible outside of hitting Psychic resists, and Mesprit's STAB isn't strong enough to make up for that. I think it's still a fine Pokemon with fantastic versatility, but I don't see it near the same level as other A+ Pokemon.

I'm not convinced on Pyroar either. It has an average-at-best matchup against the entirety of S rank, and its Speed, while good, isn't quite good enough. Important NU benchmarks are basically base 80, base 95, and base 110. There are a good number of threatening offensive Pokemon around the 110 Speed tier that really make you question using Pyroar. If I want something fast and frail, I expect it to be at or above 110 Speed, have priority, or have a way to make up for the lack of Speed. Pyroar doesn't really have any of these things.


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Cacturne plays like a more "utility-based" Shiftry, which is apparent what with its access to Spikes and Water Absorb. It's still an incredibly threatening presence in its own right though, since its insane power and dual STABs still leave it with few switch-ins and whatever it cannot pummel into dust on the switch, it can just soften them up with Spikes. Cacturne is still B+ worthy imo.

Scyther is pretty awesome; its blend of bulk, Speed, and power allows it to do so many things at once, most notably being one of the most reliable and self-sufficient wincons in the tier, as well as being one of the best Sawk checks. And all it wants in return is some anti-hazard support and some anti-Rock and -Steel, which is not that hard even in terms of a teambuilding pinch since a good amount of mons can compress those roles easily. A+ from me.

I'm not convinced on Pyroar either. It has an average-at-best matchup against the entirety of S rank, and its Speed, while good, isn't quite good enough. Important NU benchmarks are basically base 80, base 95, and base 110. There are a good number of threatening offensive Pokemon around the 110 Speed tier that really make you question using Pyroar. If I want something fast and frail, I expect it to be at or above 110 Speed, have priority, or have a way to make up for the lack of Speed. Pyroar doesn't really have any of these things.
Well Pyroar does have the moveslot for Flame Charge if it really wants :/ What I see Pyroar offering is that it is the fastest strong special attacker in the tier, and NU has much fewer special sponges than physical walls, not to mention most of those special sponges do not have recovery. I find Pyroar to have much more "freedom" with its attacks in that it doesn't have to worry about nearly as much potential obstacles compared to the 110 Speed and above attackers; it only really has to watch out for a couple of checks until it smacks / cripples them enough to the point where they would no longer be a problem (LO Hyper Voice 3HKOes Lanturn and AV Mortar). I've also toyed with Pyroar's last moveslot to give it the added versatility, like Will-O-Wisp (pretty standard, whittles switch-ins and stops Sucker Punchers), Flame Charge (mild wincon), as well as Taunt (stops the likes of Musharna and Mega Audino from trying shit). I'm not heavily opposed to a drop to A, but I do recognize Pyroar's niche compared to the other speedy attackers in NU.


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Scyther has been a pretty big force in the metagame for quite some time as it is really bulky with HP investment + Eviolite. This thing can also just force itself out of its checks and counters thanks to U-turn and a +2 U-turn still hits pretty hard even if Scyther loses the boosts on the switch. Flying STAB is also very good in this meta with few resists and those resists are hit hard by U-turn. While it does lose to a lot of things and really hates Stealth Rock, good entry hazard removal in the form of Rapid Spin from things like Claydol and reliable recovery in Roost means that SR doesn't become that much of an issue.

Mesprit, while having a stint in S rank for quite some time, fell hard due to Dark spam. The good thing is though people found running Defensive Mes (which is a really reliable Fighting check) brings the same utility it used to as not only is it reliable at setting SR it also reliably gives Healing Wish or Thunder Wave support to the entire team. I do, however, feel that Mesprit is still not worthy of a rise just for the sheer fact that most Dark-types such as Skuntank and Shiftry shit on it even with Colbur Berry (and it isn't uncommon to see 2 Mesprit answers on one team in a Dark-type + a CM Psychic-type w/ Signal Beam). The Colbur Berry can also be Knock'd Off by another mon meaning Mesprit cannot tank a powerful Dark type STAB move like it wants to so it can reliably shit on Dark-types.


Zebstrika is a really cool mon as it has an amazing Speed tier outspeeding the likes of Floatzel, Archeops, and Tauros. It also has decent coverage with its STAB, Overheat, and HP Grass. However, it is really frail and cannot reliably check the things it wants to all match as it wears itself down with Life Orb recoil. With that, C+ seems fine for the zebra as it has that amazing Speed tier despite its lack of power / bulk. Raichu also deserves C+ because while only speed tying with Archeops and Tauros, it has an awesome boosting move in Nasty Plot, which can be taken advantage of thanks to Raichu forcing switches on many Electric-weak mons such as Rott, Pelipper, etc. Focus Blast + HP Grass also give impeccable coverage and hit really hard against things like Lanturn, Claydol, and Quagsire (fk Unaware) when backed by Life Orb and a Nasty Plot. Nasty Plot + 110 Speed tier is reason enough for Raichu to "rise".

Ferroseed is such a momentum sucker on any team it is on and it becomes setup fodder for anything it does wall such as Klinklang. It also has a hard time fitting all the moves it wants into one set as it wants Thunder Wave, Gyro Ball, Leech Seed, Protect, Spikes and / or Stealth Rock. While this thing does its job well, it isn't worthy of A-rank as its splashability is lacking and it requires more support than it gives imo.

Another post with thoughts on Cacturne and Roselia to come soon. (Or I will edit it into here)


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just going to post the two noms i have the most experience with:


Yeah I 100% think Scyther is deserving of A+ since its one of the most threatening mons in the meta. A lot of people are forgetting that SD Eviolite is not the only set it can run. Choice Band Scyther is actually really threatening in this meta as most teams usually only rely on Flying resists without recovery like Rhydon and Lanturn which Scyther is easily able to take advantage of. Its also not shabby at all on the defensive side as it can act as a sort of catch all check to most types it takes neutral damage from like Normal / Water and then come out on top. The only real downside to Scyther, and it is pretty big, is how its mandatory to run Hazard Control with it and Hazard Control isn't that great in this meta. Aside from that Scyther has very little down sides and is definitely worthy of A+.


So I've been using Raichu quite a bit recently and it really exceeded my expectations. Nasty Plot is actually really scary for many teams to stare down since there are such few answers once it sets up a Nasty Plot. I used it on a spikes stack team and it is able to put in a lot of work most games since the combo of spikes + nasty plot is a lot for teams to handle. It does have its downsides like its frailty and its weakness once it doesn't set up, but I don't think that warrants it being in C over C+. I wouldn't be surprised if it stayed C though, but moving it down to C- would be a mistake imo.

edit: also disagree w/ cacturne being moved down, hollywood basically covered everything there is to be said about it though

Scyther (as alot already said) is a huge threat in this meta. SD Eviolite Bulky Scyther is able to set up on so much this metagame and there is no move in this meta that OHKO's Scyther if it isn't super effective which means you almost always can U-turn out or SD up. Also cool thing to note is that AV Modest Magmortar has only 37,5% chance to OHKO a Eviolite Scyther which proves how bulky Scyther is.
252+ SpA Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Scyther: 308-366 (89.7 - 106.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Then most people forget there is another huge set Scyther can run which is Banded, Banded Scyther has so little counters and the counters it has you can just give damage with U-Turn (what Metaphysical mentioned already is that the counters to Scyther has no recovery.) and a banded U-turn does alot to almost everything in this meta. (Despite all the other U-turners in this meta which is mainly use U-turn only for switch initiative.) Only problem Scyther has is Stealth Rocks but that is literally the only thing it has problems with otherwise it would be on like 90% of the teams I can guarantee that.

Vileplume is in meta so good in my oppinion, it's so splashable on almost every Balance/Stall and even sometimes on Bulky Offense. It checks/counters so many things in this meta. What Vileplume makes so good in my oppinion it's his good typing, reliable recovery, good ability and solid resistances. With Vileplume resisting quite a number of things it's able to come in on most physical mons in this meta and can get a Effect Spore of and then treaten them out since most can not break Vileplume. And with 100 SpA it's also able to do some good damage against Frail mons. Also compared to other physical walls in this meta like Weezing and Carracosta (Rhydon is much lesser extense) it has better HP and Special Defensive stat, compared to Ferroseed and rhydon it has reliable recovery while Ferroseed only has Leech Seed as way to recover.
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C- -> C / C+

I've really taken a liking to Metang lately, and I feel that C- is really underselling it quite a bit for its defensive capabilities that it offers. Metang is a very solid glue that checks a wide variety of common threats such as from Jynx, Klinklang, Archeops, Tauros (with the optimal spread it avoids the 2HKO from EQ and Fire Blast does pitiful and getting LO recoil off on Tauros is huge), Musharna, and many others; not much else can cover that much in one slot and provide Stealth Rock. We all know that Steel-types arent too common in the tier, and most of them don't even check Jynx due to their Fighting weakness (Mawile is 2HKOed by Ice Beam after some chip damage), but with Metang's secondary Psychic-typing, it has no trouble combating Jynx. It also doesn't have much of an issue fitting Toxic onto its moveset, and unlike some other mons which you might arbitrarily throw Toxic on if you're weak to Musharna, Metang doesn't get Toxic'd in return from Synchronize. In addition, Steel / Ground is a rather nice offensive coverage, EQ nabbing Fires, opposing Steels, and Lanturn. Metang clearly has its flaws, being that its rather passive and generally relies on getting off super effective hits to actually deal notable damage and is a defensive mon with no recovery, and can be setup fodder for stuff like SD Samurott. Compared to other mons in C- like Basculin, Volbeat, and Ditto, I feel that Metang has much more of a legitimate place on a serious team due to its unique traits and the team support it provides, and while C+ might be pushing it, I don't think its completely out of the picture.

Here's a replay of Metang in action: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-294723632
Granted I probably would have lost to Klinklang if the last Gear Grind hit, but the turn after Metang definitely came in clutch by barely surviving Magmortar's Flame Charge and preventing that from sweeping me.


Celesteela is Life
Nominating Articuno from B to B+
This was brought up in the last thread, and I wanted to continue this nom, because Articuno is amazing right now. Ice/Flying is a pretty good offensive typing right now, and combined with Freeze Dry and Articuno's powerful Life Orb boosted STABS, makes it very hard to switch into, as it's only true counters are things like Metang or Probopass. Articuno is also a pretty good team supporter, as it's excellent defensive stats of 90/100/125 make it take many hits, and Cuno has some good supporting moves as well. (Heal Bell, Tailwind, Toxic, Roar, etc.) Thanks to these qualities, Articuno has some versatility in itself, as it can either be the common LO wallbreaking variant, or a defensive variant designed to check Grass and Bug types, or even a Rain setter thanks to Hurricane! Sadly, Articuno has some glaring flaws, such as it's 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, making it need team support to work at the best of it's capabilities. It's speed is decent, but it outsped by many mons like Electivire and Archeops that threaten it. And there's always that damn risk of not hitting Hurricane without the rain, which combined with the pressure to Roost, can hurt your chance to win games.

The Verdict: Overall, I think Articuno is a very underrated and very threatening thing in the metagame. With the capabilities to be a fearsome wallbreaker, a wall, or even a Rain Dance setter, Articuno is unpredictable as well, and since there are other Ice types like Jynx and Aurorous, it sort of gets shut out, making it a surprise, which helps it. Even though the Stealth Rocks and weaknesses may keep it in B, I propose to move it up to B+ due to it's solid overall stats and it's number of pros in the current metagame.


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Hello I am finally getting around to expanding on my thoughts.

A- > B+

I don't think anyone is really arguing this one, but Ferroseed's passive nature is not very appreciated in metagame filled to the brim with overwhelming wallbreakers and set up sweepers. Considering Thunder Wave is Ferroseed's only crutch against the long list of offensive mons that give it shit should be a strong indicator of what the current meta is doing to it.

B+ > B

For the record, I did not suggest Cacturne to drop because I was comparing it to Shiftry. I suggested Cacturne to drop because of how easy it is to pressure in a match due to its frailty and low speed. Cacturne's sole defensive niche is Water Absorb and most Water-types in the tier have methods of beating Cacturne even when it switches into their Scald. The only Water-types Cacturne beats by switching into them every time are Prinplup and Quagsire who are both falling out of favor because of their passive nature. Lanturn and Defensive Carracosta are honorary mentions, but Lanturn can simply Volt Switch out and costa can hit it hard with a Rock STAB. I agree that it's the best offensive Spiker in the tier, but against offensive balance and up, it really struggles to find the opportunity to come in at all in a match.

Also, obligatory Skuntank mention.

B > B-

I don't know if anyone is really contesting this one either, but I think Roselia is a little overhyped. It's a Poison-type that doesn't beat Fighting-types and a Grass-type that doesn't beat Rhydon. It opens the door for Magmortar and Pyroar switch-ins and is mostly outclassed as a Spiker by Garb. I've heard there's a neato offensive set, but I have yet to see it be used effectively or proven that it's a consistent set in general.

For other noms:

A > A+

Yeah sure. I was originally opposed to this nomination when we were doing the big update, but I guess I've had a change of heart. Scyther possesses a pretty impressive defensive and offensive niche. Other people have talked at length about it so I'm not going to waste my fingers typing out stuff, but sure I agree.

A > A+

Pretty neutral on this, but I'm leaning mostly towards no. Offensive sets are pretty inconsistent against offensive teams because of Mesprit's lacking speed stat and Defensive sets, while quite useful in the current meta because Sawk, don't offer much of an incentive over other Rockers outside of the obvious Healing Wish and Fighting resist.

C- > wherever

I disagree. Holly covered it, but Zebstrika's pretty outlcassed in its speed bracket. Swellow + Floatzel fill the niche of "fast mon with momentum grabbing that outpaces 110's." On top of that, Zeb doesn't flourish in our tier as much as PU because we have an over abundance of answers to Electric-types (mostly Lanturn, but really a lot of other stuff too, like Rhydon and Piloswine.)

A- > A

I'm also opposed to this. Plume's typing, while it sports a lot of useful features, is also very easy to take advantage. Like I mentioned a bit with Roselia, I think the Grass/Poison typing in general is a little out of favor right now. It gives plume a bad matchup against a lot of stuff it really wants to beat. Tauros and Sawk beat it down with Zen Headbutt with a little prior damage, it's not a reliable switch-in to Samurott until its set is revealed, SD Rhydon destroys it with a little prior damage, etc. Defensive mons like plume are pretty easy to exploit right now, so I really don't think it needs a bump.

I don't have much of an opinion on
because I haven't used them. I'll build some teams with them later and see how they function.

edit: o ya and cuno
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B > B-
Yeah I agree with this, but I don't agree with all of your reasoning.
It opens the door for Magmortar and Pyroar switch-ins
Roselia should be running Sludge Bomb on every set in this meta no matter what, and Sludge Bomb does a clean 50% to Pyroar with no investment, and has a chance to poison Magmortar which is very annoying for a mon with no reliable recovery.
mostly outclassed as a Spiker by Garb
These two can't really be compared aside from being poison type spikers since Roselia would be more focused on the defensive aspect of Spike Stacking due to its access to reliable recovery and a better defensive typing and a higher special defense. It gives teams a solid Electric switch in without being forced to run a ground type, while also being able to beat most grass and water type special attackers in the tier. Garb is also a much better physical check with Helm + Aftermath and having the typing to check Fighting Types a lot more reliably.
I've heard there's a neato offensive set, but I have yet to see it be used effectively or proven that it's a consistent set in general.
Yeah I've used this set a lot and its no where near effective enough to keep it in B
It's a Poison-type that doesn't beat Fighting-types and a Grass-type that doesn't beat Rhydon
This is the main reason I think Roselia should be dropped if anything, since it provides very little synergy on the team on the Physical Defense side. While it does have a great Special Defense stat, its Physical Defense is so lacking it really only warrants use on Defensive teams since that is where is capabilities defensively can be made up, while it just takes up a slot on offense and forces you to run more checks to common threats which is very hard to fit in on offense.

Overall I agree with everything else you brought up :toast:

edit: hey guys I'm metaphysical and I put effort into a post to say "I agree with your post but I don't agree with some small details ooo"

edit2: i put effort in because i don't want people to be misinformed, if you feel that this post is useless feel free to delete it, but I don't feel people should think Roselia is walled by Fire Types when its not

Dis edit: I'm just giving you a hard time bud lol.
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Probopass for D-rank

Hey, Im here posting on behalf of Probo once again; it seems to have slipped through the cracks and lost its ranking

First of all, I know probopass isnt the most effective pokemon in this metagame; I'm not asking for a high ranking though. I'd just like to point out its unique merits, that warrant a rank in my eyes.

-Counters vivillon, scyther, skuntank, swellow just to name a few
-switches into lilligant, getting a twave off if not super unlucky with sleep turns
-beats mesprit and pivots out of every other relevant psychic type, since they commonly run signal beam these days
-pivots out of CM users (perfect for encore support)
-switches in on mons such as roselia, plume, mismagius, rotom-fan, haunter, and either sets up rocks, gets momentum or spreads paralysis

Of course, probo is a huge setup fodder for twave immune mons such as rhydon, but that can be said for a lot of (ranked) mons, such as swellow.

I believe that probopass fills a niche as a specially defensive pivot/rocks setter, whos typing, flawed as it may be being 4x weak to fighting and ground, allows it to also beat a unique set of mons that no other mon do.

These mons also arent complete ass, for example vivillon is sitting in the A-ranks.

If you have a reasoning as to why probopass ( or proboass as some of you mistakenly call it ) shouldnt be ranked even in light of its merits, please let me know; I just think that it fits in D rank with other niche mons such as Ariados, regular Audino and Torkoal.

i brought some of these points up when we were doing the initial rankings but not many people agreed w/ me and now that i need a new way to procrastinate i thought i might as well bring up some of the old noms as well as some new ones.

B+ -> A-: holE this mon is great rn. sitting in the 115 speed tier is absolutely fantabulous since its only outpaced by swellow, allowing it to handle all the shit in the 105-110 speed tier that's so common like chops, tauros, pyroar etc. it has p great coverage across its 3 moves and even tho the meta becoming more offensive is the main reason for it to rise, it still isnt completely useless against bulkier teams since it can run Taunt or BP in the last slot to either hamper defensive mons or pivot out of shit like lanturn as they come in. rott existing holds it back from moving further up since it faces p big competition, but this mon should defs be in the A ranks

A- -> B+: speaking of competition from other water types, am i the only one that like absolutely hates kabutops rn? its only niche from the other water types is that it has spin and even then its really not a good spinner. even if you wanna run sd + 3 attacks w/o spin it's like "why would i use this over rott" since rott has megahorn / more bulk. jolly sawk is more common so you dont beat it by running jolly anymore and it just doesnt fit on a lot of teams like it used to. its not a better mon than floatzel or even other stuff in B+ like geist and should drop imo.

A -> A+: mush is kind of god-like rn. it checks half the metagame on its bulk alone and operates as potential win-con in every game because of its ability to outlast its checks and set up on like half of the offensive mons in the tier. while barrier cm isn't as good as it was before all the dark types dropped (when it was probably suspect-worthy tbh), our dark types dont exactly have the greatest longevity outside of mar, and its not too difficult to wear them down. the tried and true cm 2 attacks set is still great, and even shit like cm t-wave to fuck over offensive even more is becoming a thing. its a pretty meta-defining mon rn and definitely worthy of A+.

quick word on some of the other noms. i still like ferroseed a lot but im fine w/ it dropping since its just one of those mons that's viability moves in a cycle where everyone forgets about for a while then nobody prepares for it, then it walls like half the meta, then people prepare for it again and it becomes less viable, etc. zeb is atrocious in this meta (not user: zebraiken ofc :toast:) and shouldn't be used at all, drop it to d for all i care. scyther is kind of a no-brainer b/c of how good it is in this meta w/ defensive and offensive utility, the 4x weakness is the only thing keeping it out of S imo. metang is a coolio mon 10/10 would rise. plume and sprit are both fine where they are, not much has changed to make either better or worse, although i like plume more than sprit for sure rn. the other ones i dont really care about.

e: fun fact the only reason im posting this is to watch the thread rather than click the handy dandy watch thread button oo
B -> B+
I really think that Liepard should not be in the same rank as Electivire, Claydol or Sandslash. its versatility, awesome ability, and crazy movepool makes for a good matchup vs. a majority of the tier.

apart from standard as fuck NP + Copycat sets there are also cool moves it gets like Play Rough, Seed Bomb, Gunk Shot, prankster Trick, etc, that can really catch opponents off-guard. here are some interesting calcs:

252 Atk Life Orb Liepard Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 161-190 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (breaks the Rest-Cycle)
252 Atk Life Orb Liepard Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hariyama: 294-348 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (can't switch in on Knock Off)
0 SpA Life Orb Liepard Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 380-452 (96.4 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

those are just some cool calcs that prove 'checks' to Liepard can be lured to help your teammates, but don't think they are all lurable with the same set, as you really can't fit all these moves on the same set without losing all the utility you need.

its speed-tier is also really nice at it outspeeds pretty much anything in the tier except for Floatzel, Swellow, Archeops and Tauros, who are all heavily damaged by Sucker Punch. it also speed-ties with Pyroar, and outspeeds important threats like Scyther and Mismagius.

flaws are of course that it can't set-up on a lot of pokemon (especially vs. Offense teams) and its frailness, which is the case for almost any mon lol

I may or may not have overlooked an obvious flaw or something but I'd like some discussion as Liepard is a very interesting and unpredictable Pokemon to get matched up vs.
Also dont forget how valuable a clutch Prankster Twave or Encore can be used as an emergency button for when a dangerous sweeper gets out of hand. That alone provides your team with utility versus offensive and defensive teams whenever they attempt to set up and sweep with their win cons.
Ya know, I've been wondering if Cryogonal should drop to C rank. Over other hazard removers it does have some nice special bulk as well as decent special attacking power and speed but I don't think that matters too much as a lot of special attackers don't care too much about this guy. There are a lot of good fire special attackers, some that are fast (or ways of getting fast quick like combusken), and others that are bulky that can take a HP ground decently well like magmortar. There are also special attackers that can put cryo to sleep, burn/hex, volt turn, go physical (if mixed or can go either way like floatzel), and some like Zebstrika that can hit it up with some coverage. I've tried using this & I always felt like I was getting 1 or 0 spins off per game. If you go offensive with this, you feel like you need some bulk and if you go defensive, you feel like you need some speed or power. The fact that Ice only resists ice isn't that great & it's not that great at taking hits when you look at the top special attackers. Not only that but, it doesn't seem that great offensively due to the weird speed tier it's in as well as the mediocre special attack. It does have better recovery over other hazard removers but, it's tough to get it off a lot of the time seeing how the meta is so offensive. It's movepool isn't that good either.
I will say that 105 speed can be useful as well as having an ice typing offensively.
i'd like to see Pawniard and Prinplup drop to C+

Pawniard is just not a very good dark type right now, its niche as an offensive dark type has been taken by Shiftry, and is just soooo weak. It's a lot harder to justify using compared to when it was like the only viable dark haha. Toxic immunity with SD to check CM Barrier Mush is prob its best niche, but thats almost the only reason i'd use it nowadays

I love Prinplup but its just a complete momentum sap with pretty shitty stats that loses to like all of the top mons, it doesnt counter much of anything, and mainly just dies
i'd like to see Pawniard and Prinplup drop to C+

Pawniard is just not a very good dark type right now, its niche as an offensive dark type has been taken by Shiftry, and is just soooo weak. It's a lot harder to justify using compared to when it was like the only viable dark haha. Toxic immunity with SD to check CM Barrier Mush is prob its best niche, but thats almost the only reason i'd use it nowadays

I love Prinplup but its just a complete momentum sap with pretty shitty stats that loses to like all of the top mons, it doesnt counter much of anything, and mainly just dies
Pawn has a seperate niche that Shiftry does not have. It beats Mega Audino and discourages hazard removal with defiant. Also checks Jynx and switches into Rock Climb from Tauros.

Prinplup defogs easily, it shouldnt be used on stall but it has utility on balance. It also gets useful utility moves that people dont use enough like Yawn. Also with Eviolite its not 2hko'd by common physical moves like Rhydon EQ. Ultimately, I like it where it is because it has a decent match up vs almost every hazard setter outside of Ferroseed.

E: but to me B- or C+ no difference
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It beats Mega Audino
252+ Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Mega Audino: 176-210 (45.1 - 53.8%) -- 37.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Mega Audino Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 258-304 (111.6 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Depends on which set in my opinion. CM set up Mega Audino can be quite the tank sometimes. You could also count in iron head flinch seeing how it has the same chance to hax as scald does. Also, some defoggers like Skuntank can take on Pawniard with fire blast if you're using the lure set.

252+ SpA Life Orb Skuntank Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 312-369 (135 - 159.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Skuntank's typing also comes in handy against sucker punch.

+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 149-176 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

These sets aren't used to frequently, but definitely stuff to keep in mind. You could also use Pelipper against Pawniard as a defogger due to it's alright defensive bulk, recovery, and scald.


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The main deal with Prinplup really is the fact that he can fit SR + Defog in the same moveslot, and it does it to at least a reliable degree. It's not the best mon we have, but this niche alone would be enough to not let it go down any further. You can't toss Prinplup against every move and hope it can survive forever, but you can use it to check things like Tauros, Kangaskhan, Rhydon, Archeops, etc. etc. etc. Also, if you're real enough to run GK it hard checks Lum Rott. I don't like Prinplup, but the fact that it compress IN ONE SLOT SR + Defog + Bulky water is enough to keep him at B-. Oh, and also imo Prinplup might even be better on offense than balance (metaphysical has a HO team with it iirc), because then you have more slots to use broken shit while at the same time having a check to offense threats, like Floatzel and Kangaskhan. Also let's be honest, unless your opp has Mantine or Cacturne chances are that you won't be giving free turns by scalding.
I think Pawniard should stay in B-. While Shiftry may provide it some competition, Pawniard's better defensive typing and extra bulk make it much easier to set up an SD and wallbreak or sweep. I actually find that the two work really well in conjunction with each other. The extra bulk can also help it take a hit and retaliate, then finish with a Sucker, allowing it to hit twice where Shiftry could only hit once. I see the kind of overlapping niches the two fill and I could understand a drop, but I feel like Pawniard is still different enough and good enough that it should stay in B-


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I'm definitely in favor of dropping Pawniard
> C+. Most of the arguments I'm seeing for it staying B- are because of its defensive utility, which I completely disagree with. The only mons Pawniard really checks effectively are Psychic-types and maybe some Grass-types. Any other mons Pawniard resists can almost always overpower it.
252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 129-152 (55.8 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 93-109 (40.2 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 172-204 (74.4 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 92-109 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 179-213 (77.4 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 126-149 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Refrigerate Aurorus Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 177-208 (76.6 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It also outright loses to MDino after one switch-in considering it just has to CM on the switch, DGleam once, and switch out. The only remaining niche it could have defensively is as a Defog punisher, but we don't have many relevant Defoggers that it beats in the first place. Ebelt Skuntank beats it with Fire Blast and bulky ater-type Defoggers Scald. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the bulky Water-type defoggers beat it even after they give it a Defiant boost, but I'm not going to calc that. It can try and check Shiftry, but it legitimately dies to the combination of Knock Off + Leaf Storm.

On top of all of that it's slow and fairly weak, due in large part to its inability to use a boosting item because of its reliance on eviolite for the few set up opportunities it has. Compare this to Shiftry who, despite lacking the one or two defensive niches Pawniard has, has superior speed, about 1.5x stronger Dark-type STABs, and superior STAB/coverage options. Its Speed and subsequent over-reliance on a fairly weak Sucker Punch really hurt it in this overly offensive metagame and begs the question "Why am I not just using a superior Sucker Punch user?"

In any case, I ended up building a team with both Raichu and Metang so I'll talk a bit about the two of them.

> C+ agree

I've certainly found a lot of flaws with using Raichu over my laddering with it, but I've been surprised with how effective it is as well. A base 110 Electric-type with its own Electric immunity is a pretty useful niche for offensive teams. It's also just strong enough to be a menace to opposing offensive teams and can give some balance builds trouble with a +2 boost. It's not really worth singing a lot of praise over because the meta is over-saturated with answers to more powerful Electrics, but it's certainly deserving of a bump up to C+.

> C agree but no higher

There's a disgustingly long list of mons Metang hard checks that bolts mentioned and, in practice, it's fairly useful to have in the back to kill your opponent's momentum. Because it switches in on so much, I've found it to be a pleasantly consistent rocker. It's very useful on balance teams that need an answer to Jynx (one of the biggest balance killers in the tier). However, Metang's also a huge momentum suck of its own because of how passive it is. I've had battles where I was afraid of switching metang in at all because it gave free switch-ins to things that really should never be allowed a free switch in. On top of that, because it's compressing so many roles into one slot with no recovery, it gets whittled down so easily. In regard to the criteria, it's not very splashable and not even close to being threatening, but it's got a good matchup against a small chunk of the meta and, as a result, is fairly consistent at what it does.

e: I'll try and make a post about Cryogonal / Liepard / Probopass / Prinplup / Floatzel / Kabu / Mush when I can, but holiday season only really allows me to put in this short post. Everyone else should definitely continue discussing these noms though :)
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kiyo is a bullE :[

prinp has been below mediocre for a while now. people are saying that it shouldn't drop b/c it has rocks and defog, but the thing is that it's usually caught trying to do so many things at the same time that its super easy to pressure and wear down. spikers like garb and ferroseed are prinp's worst nightmare since its vulnerable to all forms of hazards, and garb can just easily stay in and gunk shot as prinp has to defog / go for rocks / scald, to the point where you can just re-lay your spikes and force it to defog again since it's not pressuring you offensively. prinp was at its best in mid-xy because the ladder was filled with omastar/crustle HO teams that only required prinp to get off a single defog, but now, since the meta has shifted to where prinp has to get off multiple defogs a game, it's just not as practical as it used to be.

now another nom oo

B- => B: im sure that most people have noticed a lack of viable scarfers in the current meta and that makes it a meta where speed-boosting sweepers like rp don and flame charge mag are rly good rn. the same applies for gorebyss which is a really neat wincon right now, since it shreds apart a lot of teams that rely on stuff like floatzel and tauros as to check fast mons. the set i've been using (ss / hydro / psychic / hp fire) seems a bit unorthodox, but it actually provides the best coverage in this meta since the only thing you miss out on is ludicolo really, and you hit stuff like ferroseed and poliwrath that would normally hard-check you. its also surprisingly bulky which lets it handle weaker priority moves like gurdurr's mach punch or stuff like sucker from skuntank. rly neat mon in the current meta that should probably get a rise, and i suggest everyone go out and try it as well.
Monferno: Unranked => C+

Monferno on paper isn't the best but its a really nice sun check and fire check. It checks Pyroar, Lilligant, and Vileplume which is huge and gets rocks up easily. If you're not running Rocks you can run Taunt which beats mega audino, a physically defensive set with Toxic beats stuff like Quagsire. Monferno is cool because people often expect CB like in PU, then I WoW and Slack Off which is cool. I like it for C+ because I think it is a little better than Flareon which is in C because it takes a little less from rocks. Monferno is just fast enough that it beats stuff like uninvested Mesprit and Torterra with 56 speed, you can run more or less, but yeah. Should be ranked.

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