Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
I also think tier either 3 description is bad, or some mons from 3 need to fall from 3 to 4, and vice versa. Mence, Raikou, and Infernape stand out to me as mons that would never be MVP of a game, though the other ones in 3 atm at least on occasion could. Similarly, Rhyperior (LO TR attacker), Serperior, Mega Aero, and Gothitelle all have a chance to be MVPs every once in a while and so seem more 3s to me than 4s. Could also make a case for Scarf Victini and Sableye to be 3 too.
i voted raikou down but infernape and salamence definitely have MVP potential; ive played many games where Salamence gets 3 KOes with a moveset of draco / hydro / fblast / tailwind, not to mention supporting with twind and intim. Infernape can very feasibly pick up 1 KO with each STAB move and threaten Fake Out throughout a game. I can see your point on rhyp / serp / aero (obviously) but not on goth; occasionally its trapping is valuable but so often its a complete fucking sitting duck and entirely useless that theres no way it belongs in 3.
Pokemon whose roles are almost never needed, and in most cases weigh the team down due to their use. Pokemon in this tier are far more situational and costly than those in higher tiers.
Mega Latias UR --> 4
Though Mega Latias gets 1v1'd by any mega not named Charizard Y and every Steel or Dark-type in the meta, it still can be very annoying behind a sub and can dish out good damage at +1.
Pokemon in this rank fill narrow but needed niches on some select teams such as unique coverage or Lightning Rod support. Pokemon on this tier are useless on many teams, but they can MVP on others.
Pokemon in this rank are on the edges of viability. They are either only usable on one specific team archetype (Sand Rush) or generally require excessive support. These Pokemon need to have teams built around them rather than be easily added into a team later into teambuilding.
Sending out votes now for anything above this post. (Rotom-H, Kyurem-B, and Thundurus-I will be excluded from this vote)
EDIT: There seems to be a few posts that were not updated regarding the new change in Rankings with Tier 3 and Tier 4. Namely a good number of Tier UR -> 3, which I would expect to mean to Tier 4, but I will omit them from this vote unless you tell me what you are actually nomming it for.
second this. Its a trick room setter thats immune to fake out (bar scrappy kang) that has a great spread move in heat wave, combined with a 145 base sp attack.
i get that the voting round is in process rn but here's another nom to throw in :s
Whimsicott UR -> Tier 4
This thing was seemingly useless until skymin left but now it has something slightly less annoying but much less luck reliant in prankster+encore :]
Whimsicott @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
IVs: 29 HP / 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Giga Drain / Energy Ball
- Encore
- Protect
Whimsicott is now one of two viable grass types that can (emphasis on can because only serp can guarantee it) outspeed and OHKO mega diancie without boosts and one of very few things capable of outspeeding and potentially OHKOing Latios, again without boosts. Prankster+Encore makes even the female whimsi's huge dicks to everyone. No more setting up Tailwind (unless talon), no more setting up DD, no more USING PROTECT, no more setting tr........... the list goes on.
Calcs for damage below to show offensive whimsi isn't a shitmon ;w;
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 265-312 (88 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 211-250 (87.5 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 250-296 (103.7 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Serp CANNOT do the Latios thing w/o boosts as seen below (either way Leaf Storm misses mdiancie in the first place :C)
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 156-185 (51.8 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
NOT EVEN CLOSE IT'S SUCH A LOSER
It's also useful for gimmicks like Beat Up/Ptrap if you're a loser/iliketrains11
Staraptor @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate/Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Brave Bird
- Quick Attack/Double-Edge/Tailwind
- Protect
Staraptor offers its ability to OHKO quite a few threats requiring that it move first. With life orb it can just barely manage to OHKO standard Kang, and Brave Bird from 120 Base Attack + Life Orb pretty much nukes everything outside of resists, or leaves it just barely hanging on. Wonderfully enough Fighting + Flying is also unresisted coverage. With intimidate you are given the option to rotate out back and forth in an effort to alleviate whichever mon is on the side of opposing physical attackers, and tank weak physical attacks such as Rock Slide from Landorus-T. I personally opted for quick attack just to pick up a few kos, and it's worked out rather well.
Staraptor's need for speed control, paper defenses, and at times underwhelming damage output definitely hold it back, so it feels to me as though it's best fit in Tier 4.
252+ Atk Life Orb Staraptor Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 354-416 (100.5 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 130-154 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
"Pokemon that have a good matchup vs a large portion of the metagame, are either quite powerful or offer great team support, and can fit on almost any team. You can't really go wrong by using these Pokemon."
-> Taloflame has bad, no, horrible matchup vs the most solid teamstyle, namely thalk (loses to everything but Amoo but will be dead after Brave Birding it once lol). Also loses to Diancie, Rotom, every bulky water etc. It doesn't offer any team support besides Tailwind which isn't exactly good either. It dies after two of its own attacks most of the time and doesn't fit into a lot of teams as it can't have a specific reliable role in any team (to frail to be a reliable fire type (+ kills itself), doesn't set up tailwind more than once, bad tr check as it does negative damage after an Intimidate and so on). I'd honestly put it tier 2, but tier 1.5 works too I supose.
Instead put Heatran up to Tier 1. Great mon, even rain has some problems with it as it beats every rain supporter.
Why is Blaziken listed but not Mega Blaziken? MBlaziken does everything regular Blaziken does but deals more damage, is faster, bulkier and doesn't take LO recoil. I know it's not worth wasting your mega slot on it but I don't see that as a criterion anywhere.
Talonflame is one of the most versatile pokemon. Brave bird does massive damage to almost everything. It's priority means that it is not dead weight vs sun, rain, tr, or tailwind. Also it beats diancie
I forgot the last time a Tier 1 pokemon actually had checks...
Mega Kangaskhan loses to sash gengar and mgengar really hard as well as losing to wp aegi
Mega Charizard Y does nothing but catch diancie on switch-in if you're a based god of predictions and rock slide bops it; also has tr difficulties
Mega Diancie cannot... well it actually doesn't have many checks
Landorus-T has difficulty against rain and rotom-w
Aegislash faces difficulty with like most of the tier, especially sun
Amoonguss mostly loses against sun and dies to talon bb
Diancie often isnt even a talon counter because talon tends to carry steel wing now and rotom-w is about as hard to find as hjk scrafty outside of checkmater games these days
I agree w/ heatran moving up bc it doesnt take much to let subtran just win.
Blaziken vs Mega Blaziken is different from other mega vs base form arguments because the only difference is mega blaziken has slight yet seemingly useless additional bulk and it outspeeds landorus-t after 1 speed boost but standard blaziken these days run hasty to do the same thing anyway.
Edit: it also has more power
"Pokemon that have a good matchup vs a large portion of the metagame, are either quite powerful or offer great team support, and can fit on almost any team. You can't really go wrong by using these Pokemon."
-> Taloflame has bad, no, horrible matchup vs the most solid teamstyle, namely thalk (loses to everything but Amoo but will be dead after Brave Birding it once lol). Also loses to Diancie, Rotom, every bulky water etc. It doesn't offer any team support besides Tailwind which isn't exactly good either. It dies after two of its own attacks most of the time and doesn't fit into a lot of teams as it can't have a specific reliable role in any team (to frail to be a reliable fire type (+ kills itself), doesn't set up tailwind more than once, bad tr check as it does negative damage after an Intimidate and so on). I'd honestly put it tier 2, but tier 1.5 works too I supose.
Instead put Heatran up to Tier 1. Great mon, even rain has some problems with it as it beats every rain supporter.
Why is Blaziken listed but not Mega Blaziken? MBlaziken does everything regular Blaziken does but deals more damage, is faster, bulkier and doesn't take LO recoil. I know it's not worth wasting your mega slot on it but I don't see that as a criterion anywhere.
Talonflame burns Kangaskhan (Tailwind Talon is not as good as WoW Talon imo) and is just strong enough to have a chance to 2HKO Lando-T switchins at -1. THALK is tough for the bird but not as bad as you're making it out to be.
Heatran to 1 I agree with
I was under the impression that LO normal Blaziken was more powerful than Mega Blaziken, got any calcs?
I calced and the additional power for same investment on blaze is incredibly small; however mblaze gets to invest much more since it doesnt need to run as much to outspeed loom
proof below (same bulk on both mons btw)
172 SpA Mega Blaziken Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 120-142 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
172 SpA Life Orb Blaziken Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blaziken: 138-164 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO
84 Atk Mega Blaziken Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Blaziken: 276-325 (92.3 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
84 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Blaziken: 285-335 (94.6 - 111.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
But...
148+ Atk Mega Blaziken Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Blaziken: 316-373 (105.6 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
84 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Blaziken: 285-335 (94.6 - 111.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
(accounting for the ability to run less speed for same goals)
Also in my previous post I stated that blaziken outspeeds lando-t after 1 boost but I was wrong, it actually EVs for loom before any boosts so I guess mblaze also has this over regular.
uhm talonflame literally just always puts in work :/. Unlike other fires it beats fighting types, water types, lando on the switch, is basically the fastest fucker in the meta, and speed is a huge part of the meta, fast-paced 2v2 etc etc.
It really fits the whole "You can't really go wrong by using these pokemon". People slap talon onto trick room for heaven's sakes. What team isserp talonflame not going to be fitting besides sun...
thalk isn't a teamstyle, it's a team
Rain doesn't have issues with heatran at all unless it's heatran sun, which is something else completely
mblaze --> waste mega slot + just does literally everything life orb blaze does?
immigrants where they aren't supposed to be:
Bisharp -> 2
Slow + loses to kang, just generally weak and it only shines when you predict correctly and nab a landot switchin... it's cool for killing slow things and just destroyed garde teams / tr on occasion but not enough for 1.5
Breloom -> 1.5
Powerful priority + spore threat make a deadly combination in breloom. It essentially beats everything slower than it, and priority spam is extremely powerful. It's generally strong, just specific weak mus that hurt it + reliance on sash. Lacks redirection and bulk, makes up in speed and damage
Conkeldurr -> 4
good for mach punch/wg, but generally outclassed by other fightings. Maybe mach is enough just because priority is so nice but ehh
goth -> UR
kinda bad. People have tried to build around this with little success
luke -> UR
Not quite sure why this is 4 but it's kinda just... bad? Loses to a lot of things + lots of weaks... Fighting/Steel coverage is neato but kinda bleeeh... not touching amoonguss / fires / waters very well
clef -> 4
weighs down team with its use bcuz it's so passive... Offers raw bulk + friend guard but lacks on neutering Amoonguss and resists
maltaria -> 4
fuck it I like this thing. It's a neato mon with notable resists that let it setup on various mons, ie hydreigon, keldeo, heatran, to name a few. It's got good defensive synergy with jirachi but it lacks in damage and coverage, plus being weak to steels (hello aegis) and Amoonguss make it hard to justify for anything higher
swampert-mega -> 2'
All the other swift swimmies are there @.@
Swamp beats shit like thundurus which the others can't sooooo
Plus nice rock resist is nice
Gyarados -> 3
tier 3 description fits pretty well, it's a specific typing + intimidate which is neato but it's also kinda weak unless cb/life orb and being a water that loses / can lose / doesn't like switching in to diancie (depending on boosts / when it comes up / sets), all the pizzazz is kinda ehh. It's good for some teams, but on a tier of good that tier 3 fits best imo. Also Tailwind is a better form of speed control than twave imo, even though everyone loves yellow magic
Volcarona -> 2'
Needs support, mainly stuff like redirection, diancie/lando/talon/heatran checks, stuff for fake out and offensive pressure.
Ampharos mega -> 4
Cool mega for tr, beating shit like talon and resisting its dual stabs. Has issues on coverage, but electric terrain is coolio. Enough to be tier 4
Could we modify tier 3 description from "specific role" to something else, maybe specific matchups, or add specific matchups onto the description, or specific support for the case of stuff like tr setters and mew? It's not really "wow I need a good support" but more like "I need fire typing, aegis killer, and fake out along with this typing, and beating Kangaskhan. Infernape is kind of ehh but it fits what I need"
This thing is great against the current meta and can really lock a game down if the opponent is unprepared. It has fantastic natural bulk without a bunch of investment, and while it's special attack may seem a little lack luster, it easily ko's heatran and lando, while chunking thundurus and burning kang. It's equally as good as suicune, plus it gets wide guard support. I think a check to landorus, heatran, talonflame, diancie and thundurus should be recognized for its quality.
This thing is great against the current meta and can really lock a game down if the opponent is unprepared. It has fantastic natural bulk without a bunch of investment, and while it's special attack may seem a little lack luster, it easily ko's heatran and lando, while chunking thundurus and burning kang. It's equally as good as suicune, plus it gets wide guard support. I think a check to landorus, heatran, talonflame, diancie and thundurus should be recognized for its quality.
i mean, other rain sweepers (kingdra ludi) can also check most of the aforementioned mons besides talonflame, and really the only thing it has over these two in ur example is having wide guard. but with that, it also takes up the mega slot, which could go to something more useful (diancie is the first one that comes into mind), and requires a rain turn to get the mega off. ranking it in tier 3 is fine for it just because it has its niches with wide guard, being a physical rain attacker, and checking thundurus (aka not having to deal with twave).
i mean, other rain sweepers (kingdra ludi) can also check most of the aforementioned mons besides talonflame, and really the only thing it has over these two in ur example is having wide guard. but with that, it also takes up the mega slot, which could go to something more useful (diancie is the first one that comes into mind), and requires a rain turn to get the mega off. ranking it in tier 3 is fine for it just because it has its niches with wide guard, being a physical rain attacker, and checking thundurus (aka not having to deal with twave).
Swampert-reg fits more under the Tier 3 description than the Tier 2 description, and is fitting that it be above the likes of regular Diancie and Milotic but below the pretty useful Politoed and Hoopa-U.
Pokemon that can only serve a specific role not needed by most teams, but can still perform excellently.
You think beating Thundy, zapdos, lando, talon, diancie, Jirachi, togekiss, Heatran, aegislash is a specific role not needed by most teams?
The only real threat to Swampert in tier1 and tier1.5 is amoongus and keldeo
Plus option to go with wide guard support
You think beating Thundy, zapdos, lando, talon, diancie, Jirachi, togekiss, Heatran, aegislash is a specific role not needed by most teams?
The only real threat to Swampert in tier1 and tier1.5 is amoongus and keldeo
Plus option to go with wide guard support
It only beats Thundy, Zapdos, Jirachi, Togekiss, and Aegislash in a 1v1 scenario as 3 of those are getting hit by a rather weak non-STAB but get walled by the rest of its attacks. It does not stop these pokemon from doing things to their partner/switching out despite the damage it does to them. It also can fuck itself over by activating the WP on Aegislash, and while Jirachi/Togekiss are helpfully killing themselves from SE attacks (which, as you may know, don't KO), their partner is happily dealing lots of damage. Swampert's low special attack and speed hold it back from beating these pokemon outside of a 1v1 scenario.
There are lots of things that beat Swampert outside of the whole "I wall this" or "I beat that" logic.
"The only real threat to Swampert in tier1 and tier1.5 is amoongus and keldeo"
Keldeo threatens Swampert more than Charizard???????
??????????
Kangaskhan beats Swampert lol, do you always get scald burned or is this thing running specs hp fighting?
Wide Guard support is a big reason to run Swampert in the first place since all it does outside of it is beat a few things and walls a few more (though those few more that it walls are quite big things, tbh), and not a lot of teams really have to have Wide Guard support.
Wide Guard is a very specific role not needed by most teams. The fact that it also beats some things like Diancie and Heatran just contributes to the great big pile of evidence that leads you to the conclusion that the third hoenn starter is a WATER type.
