Lower Tiers Doubles OU Viability Rankings

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I think as an attacker swampert is actually most similar to virizion in that beats some specific top tier threats, but will greatly struggle in any matchup that it doesnt have the decided advantage. That being said, you are grossly overselling swampert defensively. Like you can say "oh it beats talonflame" but 252/0 swampert still gets 2hko'd by brave bird (im just guessing thats what people run). There is also a chance of getting 2hko'd by aegislash and diancie, meaning that while you matchup well, you certainly dont matchup really well. Throwing out these three, the only tier 1 threat that i would say swampert has a truely excellent matchup against is lando, even though you lose ~ 1/3 of your hp switching into earthquake.

The best part about aegislash, the undisputed best wide guard user, is how well it matches up with with the common users of the 6 common spread moves. Aegislash walls the fairies and abomasnow extremely well, being able to switch in on their spread attacks extremely well and attack or wide guard depending on what you want to do, giving you momentum and flexibility. Aegislash is possibly the best diancie switchin in the game. While aegi obviously has a much worse zard matchup, it can still stay in and spam wide guard to stay alive if the zard isnt running overheat. Contrast this to swampert, who gets slaughtered by giga drain and solarbeam, and possibly 2hko'd by psychic from gardevoir. Again, this means that the only real wide guard matchup that swampert has a definite advantage in is lando.

All this being said means that swampert is kinda ok. It matches up well with some of tier 1.5 (4/8 by my count). But its lack of speed speed and power make it incriedibly easy to play around. While you would like to think it beats things hydreigon and latios given its coverage, the lack of oomph behind the ice beam means its still only a 2hko (and not even a guaranteed one on either one if you aren't running life orb for crying out loud), meaning you get outspeed and ko'd. I dont really know why anyone would use swampert. If you want wide guard, go aegislash. If you want an offensive water, go keldeo or azumarill. If you want electric switchin for your sun team, go rhydon. As we have seen with garchomp, having a unique combination of traits doesnt make a mon good.
 
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(Swampert) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 60 SpA / 24 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald/Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Protect

This spread lets you never be 2hko'd by life orb brave bird from talonflame or non life orb shadow ball from aegislash. Scald is more reliable, but you need hydro pump to guarantee the ohko on talonflame. Overall, I think swampert is pretty eh as non mega, and as a mega, its outclassed by ludicolo and kingdra.
 
Stratos said:
guys im not kidding hear me out on this one:

ban check from nominating viability movements.

the once in a lifetime he actually finds something worth changing, someone else has probably had the same idea, and im sick of voting on his floods of bullshit
Click to expand...

Better idea: replace stratos with checkmater.
That way stratos doesn't have to deal with checks votes.
Every voter is in spl besides stratos, whats he voting for if he's not good enough to be drafted?
 
Mega blastoise -> like rank three or four

It's kinda like a hybrid between suicune and keldeo. It has really good coverage with water move/aura sphere/dark pulse. It has some great options for the water move in water pulse, scald, hydro pump, and water spout. (it's ability boosts water pulse's damage to an effective 90 before stab.) Btw, if someone tells you to run ice beam on this thing, don't, it's bad.

It also gets fake out, icy wind, and follow me, if you want to run a support set for some reason.

Basically, it's a pretty ok mon thats viable if you wanna rek some noobs with your first starter. I picked charizard tho, cuz im not stupid

edited to make more realistic
 
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Votes are in the order Stratos, qsns, KyleCole, kamikaze, TOTEM

Sylveon 2 -> 2'
No. There's no way this mon requires or provides the type of specific support that makes something 2'. And there's no way it's that strong in a good matchup either. Check stop with these noms.

no??? sylveon isn't only viable on tr or anything. it fits well into most chalk-style teams and the only support it really needs is taking out steels, which isn't enough to move it here lol

No. Stop making me read the descriptions of these tiers if you're not gonna bother reading them for your nom :// what specific team archetype does Sylveon require? What "Heavy Support" not provided by literally any competent team does Sylveon need? Stays in 2.

No. Sylveon doesnt really need much support to succeed. Speed Control in Tailwind or Trick room is cool and all, but it generally can just hammer away at the opponent whenever it gets in on a decent field matchup.

no whattafuck man it click hyper voice
Togekiss 2 -> 3
Yes. Rock weak just really really sucks, and basically the only strong mon for whom Togekiss resists every STAB is Hydreigon. Gets like no usage.

yea this thing blows

Yes. Poor Togekiss is a worse option than Jirachi, Amoonguss, and even the Clefs in most cases.

Yes. It isnt what it used to be, especially with Diancie and Thundurus being so common at the moment.

meta doesnt look on it kindly so y
Mega Gengar 2 -> 1.5
No. this mon is too weak, too frail, too niche for 1.5. Not at all a poke that defines the doubles meta.

no, megagar is like my favorite mega to use but I don't think it should move up atm. honestly a tough call for me but yea I don't think it's good enough.

No. Just not good enough. I know it can be confusing because Bisharp and Rotom-W are in that tier but held against the rest of 1.5 Mega Gengar doesn't measure up. FWIW I agree that Mega Gengar is a strong pick : ).

No. I dont think Mega Gengar is anywhere near as splash-able for teams unlike the Tier 1.5 threats. Its just way too niche.

no too matchup and epic play reliaant
Hydreigon 1.5 -> 2
No. Hydrei hasn't been that popular lately, with Latios taking a lot of its market share, but I still think it's pretty good for its ability to beat Jirachi and Aegislash. I think it may be used a little less than it should be.

still breaks balanced teams very well. i agree it has gotten worse recently, definitely on the lower end of tier 1.5, but not enough of a drop in viability to kick it out of 1.5.

Abstain

No. I have found great success with those mon on multiple teams. With Heatran picking up in usage I feel its much more useful than people think. There are a lot of Hp Ground Latios showing up to take dedicated dragon slots on teams, but Hydreigon is much better for breaking steels such as Jirachi and Aegislash specifically for teams around Mega Metagross or Mega Diancie who greatly benefit from that.

nah hydreigon is a master of owning
Cresselia 2' -> 4
my opinion: ignore the cresselia nomination.

holy moly check stop it

This needs to stop

No. >.>

lol whattafuck man
Serperior 4 -> 3
Abstain. On the one hand, a grass that outspeeds Diancie and Keldeo is pretty useful vs offense. On the other hand, serp sucks dude lmao

this thing is not good. requires too much support to function properly and the "fast grass" isn't really a stellar niche without anything additional. virizion checks kang, skymin had amazing secondary effects on its move. serp's snowballing potential w/ contrary is not good when half of the tier resists grass or checks it.

No, Serperior in my mind is the perfect example of a Tier 4 Pokemon. It's also one of the few in tier 4 that actually gets more usage than (in my opinion) it's viability would suggest. Serperior drags most teams it's on down because so often Serperior is just slapped on as "a fast grass therefore good" when in reality it requires tremendous support to work properly. Ferrothorn, Breloom, and Virizion - while slower - are almost always a better pick on offensive teams.

No. I tried this and it was pretty underwhelming honestly and havent been too impressed with it when I see others use it.

no it is weak w/o boosts and struggles to maintain them vs a team which isnt rly bad
Mega Tyranitar UR -> 4
No. Tar still blows ass. If ur really gonna have to use Tar at least dont waste ur fucken Mega on it unless ur team just doesnt have a mega. DD is a shit set that never sweeps or does anything useful.

yea DD megatar is fine. I'd move it here but I don't rlly have strong opinions on it

No, I've used this a bit and am not convinced it's effective.

Abstain

i would rather just use ttar
Tyranitar 4 -> UR
Abstain. Normal Ttar blows ass too but it gets twave and maybe sometimes u want to use excadrill?

abstain

No, I've used this a bit and am convinced it's effective!

Abstain

ttar is worthy of 4 at least
Mega Aero 4 -> 3
Yes. i love my aerodactyls. check totem vs laga spl, or me vs n10sit in ssnls. aero is a really good anti-offense mon and powerful rock slides are bomb.

kacaw. antimeta, solid af talon check on offense. move it up!

No, this was a tough pick for me when it was nommed to drop a couple of votes ago but I said yes then and haven't seen anything positive so it would be silly for me to change my vote. I have battled against Mega Dactyl recently and it only reinforced my opinion that Mega Aero is a fringe mon.

Yes. Others have kinda summed it up.

mega aerOWNS
Mega Latias UR -> 4
Yes. Like a better CM cress that takes your mega slot. CM cress isn't good but once in a while it can be, I guess.

yea this thing is so bulky lmfao. i heavily considered bringing it week 1 of spl before i got BENCHED (not rly), but in testing, it was super good. it either forced the opponent to use a lot of resources getting rid of it or just won the game.

No. No reason to use this tbh

Abstain

tried to use this but my team was bad maybe it could be good though?
Mega Charizard-Y 1 -> 1.5
No. Sun is an extremely potent build in doubles ou. probably my best team is a sun team, and i know a lot of other people for whom this is also true.

chary sun is still rlly good, probably at the best place it's been since early XY. if you feel you're not crushing enough ppl with zardy, try tailwind n_n

No. Charizard is great! I would feel silly listing good things about Charizard because you know what they are, so I won't. It's just really good

No. Honestly one of the best Mega's in doubles ou at the moment. It has its place as one of the best fire types in the metagame and I have seen it beat teams with Mega Diancie time and time again.

nah sun is always STRONK
Mega Pinsir UR -> 4
No. Just use talonflame or kangaskhan lmao.

hello no lol

No, I haven't even seen a Mega Pinsir.

No. Havent seen in ages.

abstain


Final Changes:
Togekiss moves from Tier 2 to 3
Cresselia moves from Tier 2' to 4 (jk)
Mega Aero moves from Tier 4 to 3
Mega Latias moves from Tier UR to 4

New batch of votes will be sent out soon
 
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Talonflame shoukd drop a tier in my opinion, it is not reliable, its predictabe, tailwind can be easily stalled and it dies really fast. :/
 
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Mighty Mask said:
Talonflame shoukd drop a tier in my opinion, it is not reliable, its predictabe, tailwind can be easily stalled and it dies really fast. :/
Click to expand...
tw talon isnt even the best set tbh. also, talon has a good matchup against goodstuffs hyper offense, which is one of the best team compositions rn
 
Mighty Mask said:
Talonflame shoukd drop a tier in my opinion, it is not reliable, its predictabe, tailwind can be easily stalled and it dies really fast. :/
Click to expand...

Though most of what you said is true, I think you are using Talon wrong. Talon is very reliable for cleaning in the late game. Priority BB just shits all over weakend teams. Once one of your mons dies, Talon can switch-in and threaten to revenge kill either of your opponents mons. Though it's very squishy, its powerful priority can benefit most any team.

megacyber said:
tw talon isnt even the best set tbh. also, talon has a good matchup against goodstuffs hyper offense, which is one of the best team compositions rn
Click to expand...

Tailwind is by far the best move for Talon's third move-slot. Steel Wing OHKOs Diancie. That's it. Tailwind has far more utility, allowing you to set your teammates up for KOs the next turns.
 
I don't have any experience using Will-o myself, but my main concern is that it's just so frail. Perhaps it can support its partner, but it's basically gonna die in two turns.
 
Salamence 3 -> 2

if this doesnt move up yet it will eventually. YOU'LL SEE. I'LL SHOW YOU ALL.

Garchomp 4 -> UR

I used to defend this mon for 4 because it had a niche over Lando-T in its defensive typing but I realized recently almost all of what it has over Lando-T is done better by Hydreigon so I don't think it deserves to be ranked at all.
 
Ferrothorn to 1.5

Ferro ends games on its own if you don't have a counter or really solid check. Low base HP with high defensive stats means Leech Seed is stupid effective at keeping you alive mid to late game while also wearing down the opponent, and on top of that bulk it has so many resists that just chunking it with strong attacks doesn't always bring it down. It obviously can't hang around Fire types and Keldeo/Terrakion are troublesome, but beyond that it's incredible.
 
let me quickly illustrate the problem with ferrothorn:

Latios: Countered
Latios + Fire: Not Countered
Diancie: Countered
Diancie + Fire: Not Countered
Sylveon: Countered
Sylveon + Fire: Not Countered
Suicune: Countered
Suicune + Fire: Not Countered

and while ferro is hardly unique in the plight of "having a glaring weakness" its pretty unique in just how much this glaring weakness completely obliterates its effectiveness in the early and mid game, and it takes two of the most important defensive typings so youre given the unenviable choices of doubling up on these typings causing redundancy or else accepting that a lot of the time youre just not going to have a defensive backbone on your team. Even if it looks like amoonguss, it can't pivot like amoonguss, all it can reliably do is be an endgame wall and while thats occasionally ok its definitely not a role that would make it a metagame staple like the things in 1 and 1.5.

Rotom-W 1.5 -> 2

So i think we've just about accepted that bulky Rotom-W isn't particularly great and while Scarf Rotom-W is fuckin sick it's not major meta defining threat tier sick so it belongs in 2 with all the other "sick but not meta defining threat sick" mons like blaziken and sashgar and shit
 
Another problem with Ferro is that it doesn't even "beat" a lot of the mons it is supposed to beat if they have certain sets.

Sub Aeg, Sub MegaGross
Low Kick Kanga
Gard at least can Wisps or Taunt it
Knock Off BD Azu

It's amazing vs Rain and usable in any other matchup (except sun), but I don't think that makes it 1.5. It's just nowhere near as splashable as mons like Heatran, Kyu-B, or Thundurus, etc.
 
Mega Aerodactyl from 3 to 2.
I'll elaborate on this later, I'm on my phone rn

Ok I'm back. So Mega Aero is cool cuz its fast as fuck and can kill a lot of relevant shit like keldeo, talonflame, zard y, diancie, and other stuff as well, but im not gonna list it out. It's pretty weak to opposing speed control, but if there's no speed control on the board, then its super hard to deal with, especially if the mons on the other side of the field are weakened. Also, it has the fastest skill slide in the metagame.

Mega Venusaur from 2 to 3
I think this got used once in like spl, but besides that, no one uses the thing, cuz its pretty eh. the thing is, it can be a win condition with leech seed, but there are so many mons that just hard counter it, like sub aegis, talonflame, char y, and probably other stuff.
 
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Classic latenight posting of Vrank shifts one again.

Votes are in the order KyleCole, kamikaze, TOTEM, Stratos, qsns

Chandelure UR -> 4
no

No. This pokemon would have been a cool offensive TR setter but its extremely frail and is often running a focus sash. It has a high spA but generally doesnt live long enough to take advantage of it since it has to waste a turn to take a hit while setting up Trick Room.

this thing isnt rly good but i guess it is fine in 4


Whimsicott UR -> 4
yes, has beat up/tailwind/fake tears and is the best Encore user. Not very good but fits in heading of "shitty grass types I would expect arctic to use" so I'll give it a rank.

Yes. Niche but Prankster Tailwind and Encore can be quite threathening. It can even run a grass move to outspeed and threathen Diancie if it so chooses. And obviously as much as people hate it, Terracott is a thing that someone can easily lose to if they dont prepare for it.

yeah i actually like whims and it is cute

No. I don't think meme pokemon are good picks in the long run and whimsicott is 100% a meme pokemon that is only good with memes like terracott or disable gar. Prankster encore is cool but not imo worth a slot. Im outvoted anyways so w/e

yea, prankster encore is solid, terracott is a threat. offensive sets are also pretty good in conjunction with mega gar.
Staraptor UR - > 4
no. sry kami I know you like dis one: [

No. Lets rank this when I actually bring it and win tour games with it. When the stage is set, the raptor shall rise.

idrk i never used it but i can see some applications mostly in gambitt

No. Usage level: literally zilch.

huh???? good god no
Talonflame 1 -> 1.5
no. I voted to move this up to 1 and my mind hasn't changed.

No. Honestly Talonflame isnt that deadweight and can generally make an impact in every matchup. Its a great cleaner and has great support options in Tailwind and Will-o-Wisp, with Steel Wing being viable and seeing some use on teams weak to Diancie.

can we lock stuff that only just moved the round before that said i dont rly like this in 1

No. We just moved this one up. Talon is an epik threat with its massively strong prio.

no, huge ass threat. never dead weight and the threat of gale wings tw can be pretty scary in the late game if talon isn't able to clean.
Heatran 1.5 -> 1
yes. I've been saying this forever. Don't expect it move but I can hope. I've nommed this before so if you want my thought process go look for it.

Abstain

a lot of the time it doesnt rly do much damage and it's just BAD vs certain teams so i would say n

.....Ok I think I'll say yes on this. It's not like it's a matter of life or death. SubTran endgames are really powerful and fairly easy to set up, and Tran unlike Ferro isn't "just fuck my shit up fam" when the opponent has a check. The rain MU is still straight up awful... but i don't think it's too much of a mark against Tran as a pokemon.

yea i've been saying this for a while too, one of the defining threats in doubles due to its defensive utility and how much of a pain in the ass it is behind a sub.
Conkeldurr 3 -> 4
im gonna say no, conk really is quite good even with poor speed. Excellent coverage and wide guard. Fighting + Ice probably beats 5/6 mons on your most recent team if youre reading this. All the same, tough call.

No. Pretty underrated mon in my opinion and honestly I am happy its starting to see some use again thanks to people breaking the mold a little more in SPL.

not enough moveslots for conk to donk, i say 4 is a good fit

no. check nom

no, can pull off an all out attacker in TR very effectively as well as just a WG set. definitely deserves 3.
Gothitelle 4 -> UR (formerly Gothetelle)
no. I've been testing this a lot lately and quite like it.

No. Super niche but trapping with shadow tag as well as having access to TR can be quite menacing when played well. Croven has showcased this a few times on his TR team and I have used it to trap stuff like CM cress and Perish Song'ing it with Politoed to help support the rest of my team.

GO THE TELLE like lol nice typo kami u IDIOT (no btw this is ok)

no. check nom

abstain
Mega Lucario 4 -> UR
yes. ass.

No. Super Niche but it checks Kangaskhan, Diancie, and can even check Charizard if it wants to run Stone Edge. The substitute set is also pretty cool.

yeah luc is p decent nice speed tier and strong af

no. check nom

abstain
Clefable 4 -> UR
abstain

abstain

abstain

no. check nom

it's not great but its not bad enough to unrank it, has a niche on certain teams that can't afford how passive clefairy is.
Mega Altaria UR -> 4
terribad mon. Just use literally any other dragon or any other fairy and build a better team

No. havent really seen this in tournament play ever besides Anty with his Emboar team which didnt particularly impress much. I would honestly prefer Gardevoir or Sylv for hyper voice spam, and if we are using a DD set stuff like Charizard X is something i would opt for before this.

i'd rather use cb sylveon

no. check nom

never seen this used
Mega Swampert 3 -> 2
yes. Much like heatran I expect to be the only person to agree with this nom but it's a good af mon that I've been using since gen 6 started. LoveLoveLove

No. It is not as splashable as the other swift swimmers on rain teams. It takes up the mega slot and stacks weaknesses for the other swift swimmers (you generally are running at least one other swift swimmer when using this to fully take advantage of rain). The Mega Slot on rain could probably better be used to deal with weaknesses that Rain has in most cases.

did kyle nom this, he's a fuckboi

no. check nom

kyles rain team has been defeated so there is no argument for this. using the mega slot on something rain is weak to is a better option 99% of the time unless you just like relying on team matchup
Gyarados 2 -> 3
yes. Tough to carve out a niche besides DD (which is 3 worthy imo) while the support set is usually better served by something else (like salamence as I've recently learned). Oh and band is OK but still 3.

Yes. its a fun mon and all but it doesnt stack up to all the other mons in 2, and similarly to Togekiss the meta hasnt been so kind to it especially with Thundurus on the rise.

no all of cb dd and utility are good whatatatatafuck man

no. check nom

yea sure, i haven't seen it used well in a while. cb is the only good set imo but that's been hit really hard by the obscene thundurus usage
Volcarona 2 -> 2'
abstain. Usually the 2->2' noms are stupid but I can see the argument for needing more than the usual team support for moth.

No. Volcarona generally doesnt need too much support to just quiver dance up and hammer away. It also doesnt particularly restrict itself to a certain team style.

http://naniso.re when was this thing ever a support mon over offensive ownage mon

no. check nom

no, it doesn't really need much support. WG is nice but i've built teams with volc that didn't have it. doesn't fit on a certain team style.
Mega Ampharos UR -> 4
no. You're not totem.

No. There is only one Blood Totem.

Y E S
E
S

no. check nom

lol no what
Swampert UR -> 3
no, Ive used this a bit and bad

This can be 4. 3 is a little too much but it has some decent utility with Wide Guard and being able to threathen the genies.

4 is fine i guess

No. Has this ever actually...done anything? like besides be on a meme team with a fucking tyrantrum. Why would you not just use cune?

4, i mean its fine on some teams i guess. 3 is way too high but i can see 4.
Mega Blastoise UR -> 4
no, I've used this a bit and bad

No. It isnt that great. There are much better water types that dont take up the mega slot, that I would rather use over this.

abstain

No. Again: cune.

no its not that good and ive seen it about as much as staraptor.
Salamence 3 -> 2
no stratosmater

No. You really have to try harder to convince us of this Stratos.

no like why lol

Yes. My nom lol. Basically every time i use salamence it gets a KO and a half, minimum, and defensively it's very comparable to Latios except it gets Intimidate. Deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as the other Dragons in my honest opinion.

this thing's a god damn monster guys, it's very comparable to hydreigon except that it checks much more relevant things in the meta, ie keldeo and landorus-t. rips holes in balance and is able to set up tailwind against offense. tier 2 please :(
Garchomp 4 -> UR
yes. I was OK with 4 when it came up but if someone else is gonna nom it to UR then I'm on board.

Yes. It honestly is extremely underwhelming. I would probably out for Landorus-T or Salamence before this thing.

ROSELI LURES DIANCIE



Final Changes:
Whimsicott moves from UR to Tier 4
Heatran moves from Tier 1.5 to 1
Gyarados moves from Tier 2 to 3
Swampert moves from UR to Tier 4
Garchomp moves from Tier 4 to UR

Next batch will probably be sent out at the beginning of next week.
 
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Heatran to Tier 1.5

there are 3 fire types in tier 1. That is not a reason to dropping heatran but just pointing it out.

anyways
Heatran is a great pokemon on most teams but runs into too many problems to be placed at the very top
If you are running Kang or Diancie you are better off with Talonflame in most cases
heatran stacks its fighting weakness with kang so Keldeo and Landorus will take them both out. Talonflame is who you want to even out your team
heatran stacks its ground and water weakness with Diancie so Landorus and bulky waters take care of both
also it has a horrible rain match up, and in the sun you risk a venu sleep powder - talon does not have that problem
You'll have similar problems using it with heatran
so 3 out of 4 most popular guys are usually better off with talon; although not always

heatran is good but not tier 1 good. has too many bad match ups; move it back down
 
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