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Basically the current Blissey, as it requires something like Terrakion to break. I think he means that, considering Sablenite or Slowbronite Blissey is very hard to break and can sweep teams.
I somewhat find this logic fallicous, however. Blissey, simple speaking, should be a threat to offense. If you aren't running Terrakion, Keldeo, Hoopa-u anything physical or mixed, Archeops, Garchomp... you need to be running something to stomp its face in. If there were a few less A Ranked offensive mons able to roll right over it I would agree that it is broken, but as it is I feel it is too easily overpowered.
Id like to propose this for B+
Clefable @ Sablenite
95/80/123/115/140/30
Ability: Magic Guard
The Bulk is insane and cannot be stooped by any thing but a wall breaker. With moon light and calm mind it can become a great trick room sweeper. Magic bounce can also make it a stealth rock user and but pressure on other users as well.With magic guard before the M-Evo it can safely switch to stealth rock and the likes. It does however get destroyed by Metagross and Entei variants. But I think its great for any team that really wants a bulky wall that can punch back.
Id like to propose this for B+
Clefable @ Sablenite
95/80/123/115/140/30
Ability: Magic Guard
The Bulk is insane and cannot be stooped by any thing but a wall breaker. With moon light and calm mind it can become a great trick room sweeper. Magic bounce can also make it a stealth rock user and but pressure on other users as well.With magic guard before the M-Evo it can safely switch to stealth rock and the likes. It does however get destroyed by Metagross and Entei variants. But I think its great for any team that really wants a bulky wall that can punch back.
Why moonlight when Clefable gets softboiled? Additionally, It is stopped by many things that aren't stallbreakers, particularly Arceus, Landorus, Gengar, Jirachi... the list goes on. The only A-S mons it beats is Weavile. There are one or two others that win but can't switch in, but I find it hard to justify using this over a different Sablenite mon or even unaware Clefable.
Additionally, it really cant punch back. 115 spa, especially uninvested like this is, is somewhat subpar in OU, much less Ubers or mnm. Add in the lack of a boosting item and I find this nomination really hard to support.
Fake out on the other hand is just stupid. Deals massive damage and you get flinched and cannot do shit about it. I personally suggest a complex ban with espeed/ fake out + -ate abilities.
TBH the only thing that actually runs -ate Fake Out on a regular basis is Glalitite Weavile. While it's a great revenge kill 'mon, most teams have something that can tank a Fake Out + Feint combo and OHKO in return, or tank a Fake Out and retaliate with -ate ESpeed for the OHKO before the Quick Attack can come out. I often find that Fake Out does around 40% to the opponent, which would be great damage if not for the fact that the thing switching in on it will inevitably have priority and be able to OHKO with said priority. Really, it looks broken on paper, but in practice it's manageable thanks to Weavile's awful defences.
As for -ate Extreme Speed, with the exception of Zygarde they're manageable due to lack of good boosting moves. Zygarde has both Coil and Dragon Dance, making it an absolute menace that's almost on par with Dragonite. Entei, on the other hand, is slow by this meta's standards. It appears to be surprisingly easy to both outspeed and 2HKO Entei, while also being tanky enough that Sacred Fire + PixiSpeed or Stone Edge + PixiSpeed is insufficient for Entei to KO you. Zygarde I have no idea how to deal with, outside of hoping I get Weavile in before it Dragon Dances and then just going for Fake Out + Feint, or doing some damage to it while sacking something and then finishing it off with Weavile's Fake Out. Pinsirite is easier to deal with than Altarianite, in my opinion, because of the 4x Ice weakness and the Dragon weakness.
Hello, I'm rather new in this tier. I like it and I think it's really fun, bit I have some issue's that I wanted to adress.
The first thing is Sablenite. It gives massive boost to the user, but not only that, it also gets magic bounce. The high defense stats are hard to deal with but with magic bounce on top of it you cannot even taunt/ toxic it. Obviously fat mons like Blissy can (ab-)use this ability, but then you also have stuff like amnesia/ iron defense mew (which you cannot even taunt?!). I personally think that this is just too much.
I used to be pro-Sablenite ban until I discovered how insanely powerful attackers can get in this meta. Sablenite Blissey can get destroyed by Lucarionite Fighting types, roughly 100+ attack Lopunnite (or 80+ MMX, llllooootttsss of options, low standard) users with good STAB (like Haxorus or Darmanitan), -ate users like Entei/Zygarde, and more. Just jack up your attack stat with stones or get a Swords Dance user and take Blissey down. Also there's both Gyaradosite and Ampharosite that give great perks and Mold Breaker, so you can Taunt/Toxic/phaze, whatever, despite MBounce.
100+ base attack with Lopunnite and fighting STAB:
252+ Atk Mew (Lopunnite) Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey (Sablenite): 308-366 (43.1 - 51.2%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Mew (Lopunnite) Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey (Sablenite): 494-584 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Another thing I wanted to adress is the whole priority/ -ate thing.
The common thing is to use a mon with massive attack and give it an -ate mega. It was obvious how broken it is, therefore Luc for ex can now only hold its own mega. Likewise Dnite (which does not have its own mega yet) cannot carry a mega at all. The last one is Entei and I think that should also go.
Now aside from espeed I find other kinds of priority annoying too. Quick attack for ex is annoying, but managable. Fake out on the other hand is just stupid. Deals massive damage and you get flinched and cannot do shit about it. I personally suggest a complex ban with espeed/ fake out + -ate abilities.
I wanted to adress those 2 topics and see how the rest of the community sees it. Have a nice day.
As for -ate speed, Entei and Zygarde, here are their counters:
Entei: any Blue Orb user that resists fairy/flying and has at least decent defense (about 13 fully evolved steel-type options)
Any bulky water type with Aggronite (many)
Heatran with Latiasite
If it's Altarianite, add Blue Orb Weezing, Scizor, Forrestress, Ferrothorn, and Escavalier.
If it's Pinsirite, add bulky Stealth Rock + phaze move
Blue Orb Skarmory is basically the best all around:
252+ Atk Pixilate Entei (Altarianite) Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blue Orb Skarmory: 60-72 (17.9 - 21.5%) -- possible 5HKO
Zygarde: any Steel type off the ground (Pinsirite steels like Cobalion, Metagross, Aggron/Steelix? , Klingklang, and Jirachi) Skarmory, any steel resisting fairy/flying with Lati@site (about 13 fully evolved options).
Fairies with high defense and Slowbronite (Diancie, Clefable)
Arceus Fairy/Steel
So, basically run one or two steel types (Blue Orb one of them) that can stick around and you should be okay. Worst thing would be a +1 Superpower from Zygarde, and you can surely KO on the defense drop. Weavile is a great Zygarde revenge killer.
As for -ate Fake Out, I would first suggest giving Protect to whatever you fear it most on, it makes Fake Out useless. Secondly, I would suggest Galladite, because it gives good boosts and Inner Focus, so they expect to do a little damage and flinch you, but you don't and get to kill them. Also MMX gives Steadfast, you can grab a boost and counter sweep.
As for -ate Fake Out, I would first suggest giving Protect to whatever you fear it most on, it makes Fake Out useless. Secondly, I would suggest Galladite, because it gives good boosts and Inner Focus, so they expect to do a little damage and flinch you, but you don't and get to kill them. Also MMX gives Steadfast, you can grab a boost and counter sweep.
Protect is a great way to deal with Fake Out, yeah. One thing to watch out for is that your opponent might read the Protect and hit you with Feint instead, but even that deals notably less damage than landing the Fake Out in the first place would have. Sometimes the power difference is enough to prevent a 2HKO, and of course the punishment for expecting the Protect and not getting it is Weavile gets OHKO'd.
I somewhat find this logic fallicous, however. Blissey, simple speaking, should be a threat to offense. If you aren't running Terrakion, Keldeo, Hoopa-u anything physical or mixed, Archeops, Garchomp... you need to be running something to stomp its face in. If there were a few less A Ranked offensive mons able to roll right over it I would agree that it is broken, but as it is I feel it is too easily overpowered.
I agree that Blissey is relatively easy to beat, but I don't really get how this replay shows that - it feels like your opponent sacks Blissey when they had several less useful mons available (maybe this is just visible in hindsight, idk). Blissey is incredibly easy to lure, though, especially with Lopunnite mons, several tough claws mons, anything that can boost in it's face (in addition to physical attackers and Keldeo, anything with stab Psyshock works, especially Absolite users, and people rarely want to risk a hard switch into, say, +2 Absolite Celebi, much less mons actively known for being threatening).
It also has to choose between being good versus different playstyles - I've found the CM set to be dangerous versus bulkier teams that didn't have a whole lot of ways to actively pressure it, thunder wave + wish sets to be especially effective against offense, and toxic sets to be very consistent but a little weaker versus one specific style, at least versus me (usually my balance teams dread whichever set beats what I'm using to pressure it). And even then it still has absolute hard answers (like, can hard switch in and win every time answers), like Absolite Keldeo.
BoltBeam+ coming off base 165 SpA, Rock Polish lets you actually outspeed stuff while Twave is better for team support. Alternatively Resttalk takes advantage of this thing's incredible special bulk. Focus Blast is also an option to hit certain Steels harder. EVs let you outspeed base 150s after a RP.
Regirock @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock / Curse
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake / Drain Punch / Sleep Talk
- Rest / Thunder Wave / Toxic
Tyranitarite sets Sand, which makes Regirock insanely bulky on both sides (80/240/120 plus the sand boost for effectively fully invested base 205 SpDef). You have a lot of options depending on what you want to do - uninvested base 130 attack is still decent.
Registeel @ Audinite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk / Stealth Rock
- Curse / Thunder Wave
- Iron Head
Audinite gives this the coveted Steel/Fairy typing, with 80/190/190 defenses. The awful ability is not really different to standard. I personally found this somewhat underwhelming but then I don't think I was playing the best set (and it got critted more than in haxmons q.q)
EVs obviously aren't optimal but they give you some sort of basis to work with.
I've used two of those before. Regice is decent, but really needs the Rock Polish in order to do much. I takes care of bulky Waters pretty easily, though it has problems with Keldeo without +2 Speed.
Regirock is pretty darn good. It's an awesome lead and a decent status spreader, and it lures in a bunch of things it can take hits from, and then TWave it, neutering it for the rest of the game.
Registeel isn't something I've used too terribly much, though I remember Aggronite Registeel being VERY annoying to bring down without boosting.
It's one of the Interesting Threats/Concepts things you made, so it's in the OP.
It's also actually pretty decent, as it has a good statline for a Special-focused Jirachi while giving it the awesome Steel/Dragon typing. The other Mega Stones that provide Dragon typing don't have as good of a statline for it -Ampharosite drops you below 100 base Speed and Charizardite X has no Speed bonus, wasted points into Attack, and a useless Ability to Special Jirachi- so Sceptilite is just kind of the best Dragon-providing Stone for it.
Hello, I'm rather new in this tier. I like it and I think it's really fun, bit I have some issue's that I wanted to adress.
The first thing is Sablenite. It gives massive boost to the user, but not only that, it also gets magic bounce. The high defense stats are hard to deal with but with magic bounce on top of it you cannot even taunt/ toxic it. Obviously fat mons like Blissy can (ab-)use this ability, but then you also have stuff like amnesia/ iron defense mew (which you cannot even taunt?!). I personally think that this is just too much.
Break out your Gyaradosite or Ampharosite Pokemon if you find Sablenite abusers that problematic. You can Taunt right through Magic Bounce, set Stealth Rock, hit them with Toxic, etc. You don't even need Mold Breaker to deal with Sablenite, really, but it trivializes the most problematic part of Sablenite, making them kind of a joke.
Another thing I wanted to adress is the whole priority/ -ate thing.
The common thing is to use a mon with massive attack and give it an -ate mega. It was obvious how broken it is, therefore Luc for ex can now only hold its own mega. Likewise Dnite (which does not have its own mega yet) cannot carry a mega at all. The last one is Entei and I think that should also go.
Now aside from espeed I find other kinds of priority annoying too. Quick attack for ex is annoying, but managable. Fake out on the other hand is just stupid. Deals massive damage and you get flinched and cannot do shit about it. I personally suggest a complex ban with espeed/ fake out + -ate abilities.
I wanted to adress those 2 topics and see how the rest of the community sees it. Have a nice day.
Basically the current Blissey, as it requires something like Terrakion to break. I think he means that, considering Sablenite or Slowbronite Blissey is very hard to break and can sweep teams.
I've actually never run a strong Physical Fighting 'mon on my teams, and Sablenite Blissey is strong, but not unmanageable in my experience. It's also not something I've seen splashed onto offensive teams particularly. I've seen a few offense-slanted balance teams where Blissey was a bit of an outsider pick, but I've not seen it simply thrown randomly onto an otherwise pure offense team.
---
So: further discussion on Manaphy.
At the moment I'm inclined to leave it unbanned, but I'd like to hear some more community input regardless on the topic.
Sorry for the delay, been offline. First: tagging The Immortal
There is literally no argument for why these should be addressed in your post other than "they're obviously broken" and "they are annoying".
These are not arguments.
Toxic. Mold Breaker Toxic for Sablenite.
I've actually never run a strong Physical Fighting 'mon on my teams, and Sablenite Blissey is strong, but not unmanageable in my experience. It's also not something I've seen splashed onto offensive teams particularly. I've seen a few offense-slanted balance teams where Blissey was a bit of an outsider pick, but I've not seen it simply thrown randomly onto an otherwise pure offense team.
---
So: further discussion on Manaphy.
At the moment I'm inclined to leave it unbanned, but I'd like to hear some more community input regardless on the topic.
Welp about actual argument around priority -ate thing (so basicly Entei and Zygarde and less regard arcanine ) , yes they are annoying and strong af , they are unhealthy for the meta because it restrict teambuilding ( same for sablenite blissey btw ) so much more poke could be competitive w/o them but yeah people would cry on diancite being OP then .
So in straight line you are forced to run 1 or 2 wall for thoose mons , one another mon to kill the mons who is threatning your wall , something to take care of blissey and if you don't your going to loose no matter what unless your oponnent is making terrible missplay and don't say me it's fine if your not facing them , but they are almost on EVERY TEAM for some obvious reason .
They are counterable yes , but it's restricting your teambuilding so much (almost half of your team ) so yeah it should be banned. Im not saying that because it make me rage or anything , it's totally the opposite im running 2 priority -ate speed user wall and one mon more lame than blissey (yea this mons is lame and don't need any risk to be played , no high risk/reward , always a reward this thing is a check at almost everything and you start your thing with blissey ) so i don"t have the feeling they are OP , but MAYBE for some lower ranked guys they are .
Im no one for saying they needs a ban , im not from the council either , it's just some resentment from a guy in the top 5 ladder .
Anyway sorry if you eyes are bleeding , my english really sucks ;)
PS about manaphy : It got no impact on the ladder , Keldeo does almost the same thing .
Specifically red orb, but Manectite is also decent.
My reasoning is- Raikou is incredibly strong. Weather ball annhiliates even resists. For example:
252+ SpA Raikou Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon in Harsh Sunshine: 176-207 (51.6 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (red orb)
252+ SpA Raikou Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde in Harsh Sunshine: 168-198 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO (altarianite) (pinsirite is beaten by tbolt, but takes slightly less)
252+ SpA Raikou Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon in Harsh Sunshine: 124-147 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- 59.3% chance to 3HKO
These, for the record, are the electric-immune ones- The non-dragons of their number are smacked even harder by tbolt. Blue orb Ferro perhaps the most common exception, then, is savaged by aura sphere. While Sceptilite Mons can potentially resist it, Raikou beats the most common Sceptilite user.
252+ SpA Raikou Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 176-208 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (blue orb)
Further, weather ball is the only fire attack bar cloud nine/air lock that blue orb mons aren't immune to. If you try and bring in a blue orb mon, expect to find it hurt even if you predicted properly.
It has a few hard counters such as Lati@s, fast mons with ground moves, and Sceptilite water types with recovery, but it is a very potent threat. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-332642856- singlehandedly forced a forfeit http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-332718785- Vs a good player, #6 on ladder, in a challenge
TL;DR- It hits like a truck, has an acceptable speed even with rash, and beats many high ranked mons. While it does have opportunity costs in not having another red orber like PDon, it's many positives will usually outweigh those.
This thing is insane. STAB Weather Ball in Sun with 160 Special Attack is amazing. It has an decent speed tier in 115 base speed. It becomes really good after a +1 with Calm Mind, being able to defeat some of its counters (Heatran and Ferrothorn to name two). I'd say more but Quantum Tesseract really said most of what makes this such a good Pokemon/set. It's able to 2HKO/OHKO a lot of Pokemon with it's coverage in Thunderbolt, Weather Ball (Fire, or even Water in Blue Orb opponent situations), Aura Sphere, Extrasensory, and Shadow Ball. That's not to say it doesn't have flaws, it still has a SR weakness and a x4 ground-type weakness. However, these flaws are outweighed by its benefits.
Thirded. I find myself forced to run Blissey/ extremely bulky fire+electric resist (Sablenite Rhyperior? just thought of that, who knows). Sure you can have a fast attacker with a strong ground move, but Raikou won't come in on that. He'll get something he knows he can KO and make you sweat just trying to find a switchin. Often he forces a sacrifice of just gets the KO he wanted.
A point not yet brought up: Raikou resists -ateSpeed, and can often defeat two of the most commonly used mons in the whole tier, Entei and Weavile. Zygarde, along with those two, can't revenge with priority, their greatest weapon.
252+ Atk Pixilate Entei (Altarianite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Red Orb Raikou: 73-87 (22.7 - 27.1%) -- 47.7% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 223-264 (59.9 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Pinsirite fairs worse off unless it has already megaEvolved and is faster. Then it can StoneEdge.
252+ Atk Entei (Pinsirite) Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Red Orb Raikou: 272-320 (84.7 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
.....lol
Btw if you are using weather ball raikou, you are forced to run rash nature and that doesn't even outspeed fully invested base 100s or positive invested base 90s.
Btw if you are using weather ball raikou, you are forced to run rash nature and that doesn't even outspeed fully invested base 100s or positive invested base 90s.
Btw if you are using weather ball raikou, you are forced to run rash nature and that doesn't even outspeed fully invested base 100s or positive invested base 90s.
I also realized this but figured Entei is already too full for a move slot running ESpeed/Sacred Fire/StoneEdge/Return or DEdge or Howl or FlareBlitz or Protect
However it certainly adds to Bulldoze's viability which may earn it a spot. It's already useful for Heatran switchins (or Heatrans without Lati@site) and PDon
So the set im using so far and made me peak into the top 5 , totally walls bliss beam/blast lessvariant , it sweeps on is own and bring some 6-0 w/o so many difficulty :
Poison/Fight is almost perfect coverage for neutral damage , when it's behind his sub , lame , retard , broken , anything you want , yeah i admit it's bs
LEL (Xerneas) @ Leftovers / Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Block
- Rest
- Moonblast
- Geomancy
Forgive me for posting what appears to be a top tier sh*tmon, and understand that this set is incredibly effective at taking advantage of anything remotely passive. Once you've trapped something you just mindlessly spam geomancy until you're ready to win, then you click moonblast. Once it gets going the only real stop is roar latiasite-Heatran, since:
252+ Atk Pixilate (Altarianite) Entei Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fairy Aura Xerneas: 211-249 (46.3 - 54.7%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Power Herb is not that necessary, though its use allows you to set up in the face of most special attackers, who would other wise be KOing after the charge turn.
I actually think this set is better than regular GeoXern in this meta because of how easily the offensive power Herb set is checked by all the red-orb walls and blissey.
Give it a shot and enjoy plundering all the people trying to use stall.
I guess I should comment on the Manaphy suspect, and how it has effected the metagame.
Replacements
I see the comparison between Keldeo and Manaphy being thrown around alot, and to be honest it's unjustified. It's easier for me to list what Keldeo has over Manaphy, because the other lost is too wrong. Keldeo has speed and power... That is all. Manaphy has the bulk, typing and move pool. In reality Keldeo is lackluster compared to Manaphy.
The power difference isn't as important as it seems. Because of Tail glow Manaphy can pressure your opponent far better with the use of coverage moves, and although Keldeos Hydro pump is more powerful at +1 than +3 Surf when counting in Adaptability, when something resists Water keldeo is the worse option because Manaphy has coverage enough to hit something harder. And Keldeo counters aren't hard to come-by. Ampharosite Manaphy, Blissey, Giratina, Lugia, Togekiss, Primal Groudon, Victini are all excellent counters/checks to variou primal Groudon sets. And for offence? Ate speed. Zygarde switches in and can set up a DD if it's Altarianite. Manaphy can't be slept on. When facing Manaphy my instant, knee jerk reaction is poke it with a stick! Because it might be running the coverage enough to beat my team at +6! So I find Manaphy to be more threatening than Keldeo, even though the initial power goes to Keldeo.
In terms of speed I find it weird. If everything has Mega Evolved then the average, good speed tier is 130ish. But before mega Evolving it's around 100! So speed is weird. If Manaphy sets up a tail glow turn 1 it's likely to outspeed almosy anything! So speed on both mons are excellent!
Now, typing is huge. The slim margin for bulk wouldn't be such a big issue, except Keldeo is part fighting, meaning the two most common atespeeds OHKO it, meaning one ate abuser is enough to check Keldeo, while Manaphy needs two!
Generally speaking I believe the pressure Manaphy puts on teams is too significant. Because of the nifty duel speed tier offense struggles immensely with Manaphy, forcing them to resort to Atespeed as their one check. The bulkier teams get the less viable atespeeders become, stall and balance can't always afford an atespeeder and they're left gaping when Manaphy surprises their "counter" with a coverage move.
Tl;dr the pressure Manaphy applies to all archtypes is far too significant, forcing teams to use obscure EVs, moves or Stones. Keep it banned
Cresselia
I understand that stall is a joke in Ubers, but this gains literally nothing in this metagame, and in standard it is UU. It can check Pdon, but it can do that in standard and is outclassed by Latis. It isn't weak to Ate's, but Arceus can do that instead. It has reliable recovery, but that's not enough for it to be good. The only possible use I can see is a non-ate weak levitator with bulk and lefties, which shouldn't be a needed niche. For goodness sake, just use Lati@site.
Deoxys-N
The infamous Uber still useless, Deoxys is outclassed in nearly every way by its forms. Please get this thing out.
I'd be willing to here any arguments, but this was sparked by a ladder match where I tried to persuade them not to use Cresselia and they replied that they wanted to use some less common but viable mons. We aren't a standard tier- we don't have to rank everything sorted here.
I guess I should comment on the Manaphy suspect, and how it has effected the metagame.
Replacements
I see the comparison between Keldeo and Manaphy being thrown around alot, and to be honest it's unjustified. It's easier for me to list what Keldeo has over Manaphy, because the other lost is too wrong. Keldeo has speed and power... That is all. Manaphy has the bulk, typing and move pool. In reality Keldeo is lackluster compared to Manaphy.
The power difference isn't as important as it seems. Because of Tail glow Manaphy can pressure your opponent far better with the use of coverage moves, and although Keldeos Hydro pump is more powerful at +1 than +3 Surf when counting in Adaptability, when something resists Water keldeo is the worse option because Manaphy has coverage enough to hit something harder. And Keldeo counters aren't hard to come-by. Ampharosite Manaphy, Blissey, Giratina, Lugia, Togekiss, Primal Groudon, Victini are all excellent counters/checks to variou primal Groudon sets. And for offence? Ate speed. Zygarde switches in and can set up a DD if it's Altarianite. Manaphy can't be slept on. When facing Manaphy my instant, knee jerk reaction is poke it with a stick! Because it might be running the coverage enough to beat my team at +6! So I find Manaphy to be more threatening than Keldeo, even though the initial power goes to Keldeo.
In terms of speed I find it weird. If everything has Mega Evolved then the average, good speed tier is 130ish. But before mega Evolving it's around 100! So speed is weird. If Manaphy sets up a tail glow turn 1 it's likely to outspeed almosy anything! So speed on both mons are excellent!
Now, typing is huge. The slim margin for bulk wouldn't be such a big issue, except Keldeo is part fighting, meaning the two most common atespeeds OHKO it, meaning one ate abuser is enough to check Keldeo, while Manaphy needs two!
Generally speaking I believe the pressure Manaphy puts on teams is too significant. Because of the nifty duel speed tier offense struggles immensely with Manaphy, forcing them to resort to Atespeed as their one check. The bulkier teams get the less viable atespeeders become, stall and balance can't always afford an atespeeder and they're left gaping when Manaphy surprises their "counter" with a coverage move.
Tl;dr the pressure Manaphy applies to all archtypes is far too significant, forcing teams to use obscure EVs, moves or Stones. Keep it banned
I've said this a lot, but the comparison of Keldeo and Manaphy is apt not just because of their similar characteristics, but also in their roles. They are both fast and powerful water types with set up moves that can sweep teams after their counters are gone. Yes, Keldeo is weak to ate, but at the very least it outclasses SceptilePhy because that is weak as well. Similarly, the Blue Orb Manaphy set is outclassed in the power department by Keldeo. It isn't after a boost, but the Blue Orb set is really only meant to boost in front of walls. While those do have the advantage of being lures in that people suspect the standard set, it really isn't a viability boost, and BluePhy even announces itself. This means we would have to compare the standard sets for each.
The relative merits as I see them:
Keldeo- More powerful, Boosts Special defense at the same time, has a second Stab, better Premega speed, Ability to hit on both sides of the spectrum, and nice but niche dark resistance.
Manaphy- Faster, better ability (Affectively, since Keldeo's is wasted matching Manaphy's power), Better coverage, and no Ate weakness.
Further, some of you're Keldeo counters are either barely counters or unviable. For the first we have Pdon, Blissey, and Manaphy; for the second we have Lugia and Giratina.
If Pdon has even 252/0 Bulk investment, it is beaten by 3/4 of keldeo's moves- Substitute, CM, and Secret Sword. While it can switch in on surf, the same can be said about manaphy- If Pdon comes in on an unboosted Manaphy's surf/scald, it wins. For reference, 252 SpA Adaptability Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 140-166 (34.6 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. You need a defense boosting nature to be assured, because 252 SpA Adaptability Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Primal Groudon: 120-142 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- 16.6% chance to 3HKO. It isn't a good chance, but that means that Keldeo wins 1/8 the time- and always with SR. 252/180+ is needed to always win, and even max can't save you with sr. In return, Pdon can... 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 256-303 (79.2 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO... fail to KO
252 SpA Adaptability Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 352-416 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO. This is slowbronite, for the record
Ampharosite Manaphy is a joke. 252+ SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 262-310 (81.1 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO//////252 SpA Adaptability Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Manaphy: 126-150 (31.1 - 37.1%) -- 80.7% chance to 3HKO. Your "counter" takes a minimum of 62%- While checking. That's not even getting into the fact that these two sets are mutually exclusive.
Lugia is ravaged by SR and I have yet to see it used effectively, but I'm willing to suspend judgement if you have. Giratina is the same in that I haven't seen it, but with the addition of 252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 270-320 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. It, like Keldeo, is very weak to ates.
Manaphy has some fairly major advantages, but with Keldeo sitting comfortably in A I don't see it as being gamebreaking. Feel free to let me know if I missed something.
So the set im using so far and made me peak into the top 5 , totally walls bliss beam/blast lessvariant , it sweeps on is own and bring some 6-0 w/o so many difficulty :
Poison/Fight is almost perfect coverage for neutral damage , when it's behind his sub , lame , retard , broken , anything you want , yeah i admit it's bs
Its pretty rediculous, thats obvious. However, may I suggest Shadow Ball>Sludge Bomb? Fighting+Ghost is actually perfect coverage, bar bulletproof (Ie. trash named Chesnaught who walls you anyway) and a theoretical Ghost-Normal.
Pangoro @ Banettite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Parting Shot
- Drain Punch
- Superpower / Crunch / Protect
- Me First
This set is actually really nice, being a good pivot w/ parting shot but also able to revenge kill with priority Me First. Parting Shot is obvious and I like Drain Punch to stay healthier. Protect obviously means you can get Prankster right away if needed, Crunch lets you switch in on some psychic types and hit them, and Superpower is nice since you can Parting Shot right after it, which means the -1 Attack/Def don't really matter.
If you don't know what Me First does, it's kinda like Snatch, except it copies your opponent's attacking moves only and at 1.5x the power. It only works if your pokemon goes first, which means its normally not a good option for revenge killing, but its a status move, so Prankster affects it.
252+ Atk Pangoro Me First Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 878-1034 (270.9 - 319.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Pangoro Me First Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 322-379 (114.5 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Pangoro Me First Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 312-368 (77.2 - 91%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (obviously OHKOs offensive Groudon)
It also has decent bulk, able to take PBlades from max attack adamant PDon
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pangoro: 306-361 (77.6 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Pidgeotite Delphox has taken over Pideotite Gengar's slot on my team. I do occasionally miss the spinblocking utility of Gengar, but in practice most hazard managers are Defoggers in my experience, so it rarely matters. There's a loss in Special Attack, but Fire Blast hits harder than Sludge Wave does, let alone Shadow Ball, so it's debateable as a flaw. The ability to spread Burn with Will O Wisp is surprisingly useful. I'm running Psyshock as my Psychic STAB, and so far it's not been very helpful -I might switch to Psychic, to take advantage of the better BP and give her better utility against Primal Groudon, among other examples. (I'm still weirded out Delphox doesn't get Focus Blast)
Fiddling around with Pinsirite Tyrantrum. I haven't leveraged it successfully as yet, but I think that's more on me than on it so far, so I'm withholding judgement. Rock/Flying typing with Dragon Dance can be done by Tyranitar, of course, but Tyranitar doesn't get the nightmarish power of Head Smash, nor access to Rock Head pre-Mega.
Lastly, Ampharosite Clefable. Basically I wanted Stealth Rock and Heal Bell on the same Pokemon (Plus good recovery, so not Jirachi), and with a more useful typing than Mew's Psychic typing. It's been surprisingly good so far, able to tank a lot of threats, push Stealth Rock through Magic Bounce, and protect me from Paralysis and similar. It's more bulky than I expect it to be, and Fairy/Dragon typing has a very meta-relevant pool of resists.
I've said this a lot, but the comparison of Keldeo and Manaphy is apt not just because of their similar characteristics, but also in their roles. They are both fast and powerful water types with set up moves that can sweep teams after their counters are gone. Yes, Keldeo is weak to ate, but at the very least it outclasses SceptilePhy because that is weak as well. Similarly, the Blue Orb Manaphy set is outclassed in the power department by Keldeo. It isn't after a boost, but the Blue Orb set is really only meant to boost in front of walls. While those do have the advantage of being lures in that people suspect the standard set, it really isn't a viability boost, and BluePhy even announces itself. This means we would have to compare the standard sets for each.
The relative merits as I see them:
Keldeo- More powerful, Boosts Special defense at the same time, has a second Stab, better Premega speed, Ability to hit on both sides of the spectrum, and nice but niche dark resistance.
Manaphy- Faster, better ability (Affectively, since Keldeo's is wasted matching Manaphy's power), Better coverage, and no Ate weakness.
Further, some of you're Keldeo counters are either barely counters or unviable. For the first we have Pdon, Blissey, and Manaphy; for the second we have Lugia and Giratina.
If Pdon has even 252/0 Bulk investment, it is beaten by 3/4 of keldeo's moves- Substitute, CM, and Secret Sword. While it can switch in on surf, the same can be said about manaphy- If Pdon comes in on an unboosted Manaphy's surf/scald, it wins. For reference, 252 SpA Adaptability Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 140-166 (34.6 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. You need a defense boosting nature to be assured, because 252 SpA Adaptability Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Primal Groudon: 120-142 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- 16.6% chance to 3HKO. It isn't a good chance, but that means that Keldeo wins 1/8 the time- and always with SR. 252/180+ is needed to always win, and even max can't save you with sr. In return, Pdon can... 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 256-303 (79.2 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO... fail to KO
252 SpA Adaptability Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 352-416 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO. This is slowbronite, for the record
Ampharosite Manaphy is a joke. 252+ SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 262-310 (81.1 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO//////252 SpA Adaptability Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Manaphy: 126-150 (31.1 - 37.1%) -- 80.7% chance to 3HKO. Your "counter" takes a minimum of 62%- While checking. That's not even getting into the fact that these two sets are mutually exclusive.
Lugia is ravaged by SR and I have yet to see it used effectively, but I'm willing to suspend judgement if you have. Giratina is the same in that I haven't seen it, but with the addition of 252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 270-320 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. It, like Keldeo, is very weak to ates.
Manaphy has some fairly major advantages, but with Keldeo sitting comfortably in A I don't see it as being gamebreaking. Feel free to let me know if I missed something.
I would like to point out that Sceptilite Manaphy isn't weak to Pinsirite, while Keldeo is. While Altarianite is overall the more popular -atespeed Mega Stone nowadays, Pinsirite isn't bad. It's just a poor fit for the two most popular -atespeeders, and it still sees use in spite of that.
There's also the point that part of the value of Sceptilite Manaphy is that it's neutral or immune to both the types that are Absolite Manaphy's only weaknesses -baiting out checks that aren't checks is nasty. Sceptilite Keldeo is an option, of course, but it remains weak to Fairy either way, so it's more likely that a check/counter switching into Sceptilite Keldeo remains a check or counter than if we're talking about Manaphy.
So the set im using so far and made me peak into the top 5 , totally walls bliss beam/blast lessvariant , it sweeps on is own and bring some 6-0 w/o so many difficulty :
Poison/Fight is almost perfect coverage for neutral damage , when it's behind his sub , lame , retard , broken , anything you want , yeah i admit it's bs
It can't beat any Sablenite Blissey with any coverage move, or indeed a Sablenite Blissey without a coverage move (Blissey win PP stall wars), this particular variant loathes Ghosts of any sort, and in general it's easy to put up a Substitute and then find yourself switching anyway. Calm Mind Blissey, in particular, can run Hyper Voice+Shadow Ball for perfect coverage while still having recovery, and uses you to set up.
In general it struggles with a lot of the good Special walls.
It is good against offensive teams unless you run into a surprise Absolite or Diancite abuser, but against balance and stall teams it can border into being a liability.
Gengar is not S-rank with Pidgeotite by any stretch.
Pangoro @ Banettite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Parting Shot
- Drain Punch
- Superpower / Crunch / Protect
- Me First
This set is actually really nice, being a good pivot w/ parting shot but also able to revenge kill with priority Me First.
If you don't know what Me First does, it's kinda like Snatch, except it copies your opponent's attacking moves only and at 1.5x the power. It only works if your pokemon goes first, which means its normally not a good option for revenge killing, but its a status move, so Prankster affects it.
252+ Atk Pangoro Me First Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 878-1034 (270.9 - 319.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Pangoro Me First Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 322-379 (114.5 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Pangoro Me First Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 312-368 (77.2 - 91%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (obviously OHKOs offensive Groudon)
It also has decent bulk, able to take PBlades from max attack adamant PDon
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pangoro: 306-361 (77.6 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Pidgeotite Delphox has taken over Pideotite Gengar's slot on my team. I do occasionally miss the spinblocking utility of Gengar, but in practice most hazard managers are Defoggers in my experience, so it rarely matters. There's a loss in Special Attack, but Fire Blast hits harder than Sludge Wave does, let alone Shadow Ball, so it's debateable as a flaw. The ability to spread Burn with Will O Wisp is surprisingly useful. I'm running Psyshock as my Psychic STAB, and so far it's not been very helpful-I might switch to Psychic, to take advantage of the better BP and give her better utility against Primal Groudon, among other examples. (I'm still weirded out Delphox doesn't get Focus Blast)
The speed and coverage leave quite a bit to be desired, but I do like this one. I've played around a bit, but tbh Gengar usually works better. Still, it's completely unexpected and bewildering to my opponents, and still resist's Pixispeed.
I would like to point out that Sceptilite Manaphy isn't weak to Pinsirite, while Keldeo is. While Altarianite is overall the more popular -atespeed Mega Stone nowadays, Pinsirite isn't bad. It's just a poor fit for the two most popular -atespeeders, and it still sees use in spite of that.
Pinsirite isn't bad, per se, But the sr weakness is really key. While on the first turn it can let you outright avoid many would be checks and lets you do far more damage to red orbers like Pdon, It still largely leaves Entei/zygarde walled by the same mons. The SR weakness is also huge. For Entei, It changes it from difficult to switch in to revenge-killer only, while for Zygarde really dislikes the chip. It does less damage, it has a worse typing... Really the obly thing to reccomend is that on zygarde it gives it a better matchup on other ates (for Entei its 50-50. The speed is nice, but in my experience bulky sets are more optimal.
I think you just made Banettite Pangoro meta-relevant, and not merely an interesting concept.
It is, isn't it? Sadly its weak to the ates that outprioritize it, but it still seems annoying to fight. Best of all, It can power through many stallmons. Preliminarily I'd suggest B/B+
Also this is kind of a last resort thing, but if an Absolite/Diancite/Sablenite Pokemon sets up too much and you can't stop it, Pangoro's Parting Shot will force them out with priority, although they do get the choose the mon they send in.
