Battle Spot Kanto Classic - The Very First Pokemon

[Vengeance417]

Greeting. With me today is the latest version of my Kanto Classic team titled "The Very First Pokemon" which is based around Rock Polish Rhydon. Haven't done an RMT in a while lol

Team Preview:

Building Process:

When deciding on my win condition, I initially went with Quiver Dance Venomoth. However, the issues that presented themselves when using Venomoth were as follows. One, I have no hazard removal, so Stealth Rocks badly hurt my main sweeper. Two, I swear Sleep Powder's accuracy is worse than Focus Blast's. Don't listen to that "75% accuracy" nonsense. It's not true, bro. Overall, I rarely won games by solely using Venomoth and it's been letting me down as of late.

Moving on to Rock Polish Rhydon and here we have an absolute beast. One Rock Polish and a weakened Slowbro and it's getting kills. Great dual STAB in EdgeQuake and a very high offensive stat right off the bat while providing me with a normal resist and a second electric immunity (Jolteon's Volt Absorb).

So Rhydon has issues with Machamp, opposing Water types such as Gyarados + Starmie and opposing Ground types such as Nidoking, Golem and Dugtrio. Slowbro is capable of coming in on all of these and crippling the non-Ground types with Thunder Wave while repelling most of their attacks with ease.

Opposing Slowbro was proving difficult to break, and the team so far lacked a revenge killer that can outpace and do serious damage to the likes of Alakazam and Gengar. Enter Jolteon.

The Queen and King of Kanto Classic, Clefable and Snorlax, were added next to further enhance the defensive backbone of this team. Clefable provides necessary Stealth Rocks and deter set up sweepers with its Unaware ability while Snorlax is a specially-defensive tank that phases the opposing team with RestTalk Whirlwind as my stop to Baton Pass teams.

Snorlax, especially Curselax, started to become a nuisance to the team. That's why we had to call in the Champ himself. JOHN CENA Machamp was finally added to the team to break fat normals such as Snorlax and Chansey while providing a form of priority with Bullet Punch to pick off a weakened foe.

Lastly, the team was proving to be Fissure weak, and Gengar was incredibly difficult to face. Accommodations had to be made and another Pokemon had to be let go. Zapdos took Jolteon's slot, giving me an Fissure immunity. Other changes included giving Snorlax Crunch over Whirlwind to further improve our Gengar matchup so Zapdos can be our phaser of choice with Roar. Clefable now has Heal Bell over Encore so the team still had a way to be rid of status conditions.

The Sets:

Rhydon
Ability: Lightning Rod
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Polish
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Megahorn

The star of the show and the very first Pokemon to ever be designed by Ken Sugimori, Rock Polish Rhydon is a beast to be reckoned with. All it needs is one Rock Polish and a weakened team is sweeped. Stone Edge and Earthquake provided fantastic STAB coverage as anyone reading this RMT already knows about, while Megahorn rounds out the coverage by letting me blast holes in Slowbro switchins (2HKOing after rocks, which is fucking impressive) as well as Starmie and the rare Exeggutor after I have Rock Polished up.

The reason I'm running Jolly over Adamant nature is to outspeed the base 130 speed tier after a single Rock Polish, something Adamant fails to do. I'd rather outspeed HP Ice/Ground Jolteon and EQ/Aqua Tail Aerodactyl before either of them do massive and unnecessary damage to me.

Slowbro
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 76 Def / 4 SpA / 180 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Slack Off
- Thunder Wave

You're probably looking at this Slowbro set with a face akin to "o_O". I can explain, lol

This is a set I created for Slowbro that I believe can handle a much wider portion of the metagame than the standard physically defensive spread can. The special bulk itself is supposed to turn Alakazam's Shadow Ball in to a 3HKO vs this set, which allows me to get off a Thunder Wave while still standing with a decent amount of health. This also allows me to tank a Shadow Ball from Gengar way better and OHKO back with a Psyshock leaving me with more health to Regenerate after switching out.

Scald and Psyshock are your standard dual STAB combo that hits a wide portion of the meta for super effective damage, while Slack Off gives me reliable recovery. Thunder Wave cripples fast Pokemon and set up sweepers, taking them out of commission unless they have a Heal Bell user.

Zapdos
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 4 SpA / 188 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Roar
- Roost
- Discharge
- Extrasensory

I originally had Jolteon in this slot, but upon further analysis (shoutout to DragonWhale), I was extremely Fissure weak. Zapdos provides me with a bulky Ground immunity and a phaser to prevent Baton Pass chains from running rampant against my team.

The special bulk allows Zapdos to have a higher chance of preventing the 2HKO from Gengar's Sludge Wave after Stealth Rocks. The rest goes to physical defense to take Snorlax on as best it can while putting the last 8 EVs in speed (to outpace opposing min speed 100s such as opposing Zapdos and Tentacruel) and Special Attack. Discharge is essentially the Scald of Electric attacks with a 30% paralysis chance and Extrasensory ensures I can hit Nidoking AND Venusaur with a super effective hit, especially when Nido comes in.

Clefable
Ability: Unaware
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 244 Def / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Moonblast
- Encore Heal Bell
- Moonlight

The team needed a hazard setter, especially one that was capable of sustaining not only herself but the rest of the team. Enter Clefable, the Queen of the Kanto Classic metagame. Moonblast for main STAB attack, Heal Bell to be rid of status conditions and Moonlight for recovery.

The EV spread is mainly to creep opposing Clefable and Machamp while still taking physical hits very well with no noticeable differences had I went with just a simple 252/252 spread.

Snorlax
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 50
EVs: 16 HP / 100 Atk / 188 Def / 200 SpD / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Slam
- Whirlwind Crunch
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Ok, so this is the most complex EV spread you'll be seeing today.

There really isn't much to explain regarding the moveset itself. It's RestTalk Whirlwind with Body Slam and Crunch. Whirlwind phases opposing set up sweepers and forces them to take Stealth Rock damage while Body Slam destroys Minimize Clefable and spreads Paralysis like a don. Crunch allows Snorlax to eat Gengar for breakfast.

On to the EV spread. 100 attack ensures that Body Slam always 2HKOs a Minimize Clefable unless it's using Cosmic Power. The physical bulk prevents Snorlax from being 2HKOd after Stealth Rock by Alakazam's Psyshock. 4 speed creeps opposing Snorlax and the rest gets put in to SpDef.

Machamp
Ability: No Guard
Level: 50
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 76 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Bullet Punch
- Toxic
- Stone Edge

Lastly, we have our Snorlax breaker and just a wallbreaker in general. Dynamic Punch is incredibly difficult to switch in to unless you're Gengar, in which case come catch the Stone Edge + Bullet Punch combo, which will most likely kill. Toxic nabs Slowbro and Clefable on the switch in, and can lead to a nasty combination of Toxic damage + Confusion damage for a nice chunk of residual damage.

The speed EVs creep on Clefables while the rest get put in Attack and bulk.

Importable

Snorlax
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 50
EVs: 16 HP / 100 Atk / 188 Def / 200 SpD / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Slam
- Crunch
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Clefable
Ability: Unaware
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 244 Def / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Moonblast
- Heal Bell
- Moonlight

Zapdos
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 4 SpA / 188 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Roar
- Roost
- Discharge
- Extrasensory

Machamp
Ability: No Guard
Level: 50
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 76 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Bullet Punch
- Toxic
- Stone Edge

Slowbro
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 76 Def / 4 SpA / 180 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Slack Off
- Thunder Wave

Rhydon
Ability: Lightning Rod
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Polish
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Megahorn

Threatlist:

Gengar

Kinda tough to switch in to and is, imo, my worst enemy. My best answer is Snorlax, who can use Crunch to wear it down. I have to watch out for Taunt and Will-o-Wisp sets though.

Starmie

Annoying to switch in to as well, especially if it has Tbolt for Slowbro. Snorlax is again my safest switchin, and Zapdos can tank hits from it as well.

 

[DragonWhale]

Nice team concept, but Snorlax comes in on 4/6 Pokemon in your party and can freely click Fissure. You can't even hope for the miss while you switch into Machamp as No Guard guarantees the hit. There are two different kind of changes I would recommend. Just implementing one of them should do the trick:

1) Zapdos over Jolteon. Not only is Zapdos completely immune to fissure (aside from the turns it Roosts), it also doesn't take as much damage from lax's other attacks. It also has the added bonus of forcing 2PP to be used every time it switches into Fissure. In this case, the status healing role will have to move to Clefable, and I'd recommend replacing Encore. While it does make your opponent want to switch out and take more hazard damage, it's also not useful in a lot of situations as well since nobody sets up in front of a Clefable for obvious reasons.

2) Golem over Rhydon. Yeah, I know it's the main idea and name of the team, but you really can't afford to have this glaring weakness vs fissurelax. Golem has sturdy, making it the best Snorlax counter in the entire meta.

 

[Vengeance417]

Nice team concept, but Snorlax comes in on 4/6 Pokemon in your party and can freely click Fissure. You can't even hope for the miss while you switch into Machamp as No Guard guarantees the hit. There are two different kind of changes I would recommend. Just implementing one of them should do the trick:

1) Zapdos over Jolteon. Not only is Zapdos completely immune to fissure (aside from the turns it Roosts), it also doesn't take as much damage from lax's other attacks. It also has the added bonus of forcing 2PP to be used every time it switches into Fissure. In this case, the status healing role will have to move to Clefable, and I'd recommend replacing Encore. While it does make your opponent want to switch out and take more hazard damage, it's also not useful in a lot of situations as well since nobody sets up in front of a Clefable for obvious reasons.

2) Golem over Rhydon. Yeah, I know it's the main idea and name of the team, but you really can't afford to have this glaring weakness vs fissurelax. Golem has sturdy, making it the best Snorlax counter in the entire meta.

I'll consider one of both options. Thanks for the advice :)

There are two issues I would face if I go with one or both of these, however:

1. Replacing Zapdos with Jolteon will make my team very slow and only exacerbate my weakness to Gengar if it gets a free turn. Jolteon has the ability to outspeed that and give me Volt Switch momentum once it's forced out. Zapdos does give me a ground immunity and much more bulk, however. Any sets you recommend? I might replace Whirlwind on Snorlax for Pursuit and give Roar to Zapdos for phasing purposes. For fun, I've also been trying out a Metal Sound set as a wincon before and it shreds Snorlax and Unaware Clefable lmao

2. Replacing Golem with Rhydon will deprive me of a win con and I'm not a fan of making a win con-less team, even if it's stall. I could try Calm Mind Slowbro or Calm Mind Clefable over Scald and Encore, respectively, but I'm not sure.

 

[cant say]

You could deal with both of those threats if you opted for Crunch / Pursuit over either Whirlwind or Sleep Talk. I use Rest without Sleep Talk on a much less bulkier Snorlax and I often have little trouble burning the sleep turns, so you should be fine with your bulky build.

I totally agree with DragonWhale's suggestions too. Especially (as much as it takes away from the team's theme) Golem > Rhydon. Golem is faster, and with the same build as your Rhydon, outspeeds Electrode after a Rock Polish / Autotomize boost. It lacks a move to bop Slowbro with, and I'm also not really sure what you'd use in the last slot on Golem, maybe Explosion, Power-Up Punch, Stealth Rock or Sucker Punch..?

 

[Omastar68]

Nice team concept, but Snorlax comes in on 4/6 Pokemon in your party and can freely click Fissure. You can't even hope for the miss while you switch into Machamp as No Guard guarantees the hit. There are two different kind of changes I would recommend. Just implementing one of them should do the trick:

1) Zapdos over Jolteon. Not only is Zapdos completely immune to fissure (aside from the turns it Roosts), it also doesn't take as much damage from lax's other attacks. It also has the added bonus of forcing 2PP to be used every time it switches into Fissure. In this case, the status healing role will have to move to Clefable, and I'd recommend replacing Encore. While it does make your opponent want to switch out and take more hazard damage, it's also not useful in a lot of situations as well since nobody sets up in front of a Clefable for obvious reasons.

2) Golem over Rhydon. Yeah, I know it's the main idea and name of the team, but you really can't afford to have this glaring weakness vs fissurelax. Golem has sturdy, making it the best Snorlax counter in the entire meta.

Are you positive No Guard guarantees the hit on Machamp with OHKO moves? I remember predicting a switch to Machamp with my Snorlax and using Fissure, but somehow it missed.

I like Zapdos a lot. I use a specially defensive spread with Roar. It deals with Gengar just fine, only being worried about Sludge Bomb poisoning.

I really like the idea of Encore Clef, but I think I would agree replacing it with Heal Bell is best. Encore isn't just useful for set up and status moves though. One thing I do a lot is use it on an attack that I know will KO, and then bring in a teammate that is immune or heavily resistant to that attack. They'll probably switch, giving me a free turn and rocks damage on them. If you want a surprising user of Encore, could Machamp work? Encore is probably my favorite move. Also, is 244/244 bulk best on Clef, or would 252/236 make more sense, cause HP helps with more than just physical attacks. All these Clef speed creeping each other seems like trouble. For instance, mine runs 12 Spe.

How do you do with Rhydon? It does seem interesting. It trades Sturdy(which a lot of the times isn't even all that helpful for Golem anyways cause of its bulk and Stealth Rock) for a completely useless ability and Megahorn, while trading a smidgen of speed for more Atk and bulk all around thx to its high HP(both of its defenses stats are a little lower tho.)

If you run Golem instead, I think you want Autotomize over RP. Not sure tho since lowering your weight means more Heavy Slam damage and Grass Knot and Low Kick are really rare, while the former is devastating even with an Autotomize. Movepool is much worse. For that last slot I'd say either run Rock Slide/Rock Blast alongside Stone Edge, or use Steamroller. It'll really destroy the odd Minimize Stamie and gets bug coverage like Megahorn, sorta making up for the significantly lower BP with a good flinch chance, perfect accuracy, and doubled power vs Minimized foes and no chance to miss(except Clef resists bug, but in some cases its your only chance.)

I like your fancy EV spreads, I like to make my EVs special too.

 

[DragonWhale]

There are more forms of wincons than "sweeping with a setup mon". If your opponent is no longer able to take out your, say Slowbro, that's a wincon. Also, that would mean you need to save your Rhydon as much as possible until late game when everything is in sweeping range, instead of utilizing its great physical bulk to switch into hits. Not to mention Golem also has sweeping capabilities.

Making Zapdos your phaser is a pretty good idea. As for moveset recommendations Roar and Roost are a must. Metal Sound is a bit harder to put on the same set as it literally has the opposite aim from phasing i.e. hoping your opponent stays in so you can damage their -2 spdef. Of course, it will make the opponent want to switch out so you can phase even more for hazard damage, but if they don't switch you p much wasted a turn Metal Sounding. I l recommend Thunderbolt over Volt Switch as you don't often need switching initiative if your opponent doesn't get initiative either thanks to Roar. Of course there's also the option to run both, at the cost of coverage.

And yeah this isn't really the place to discuss mechanics questions but OHKOs are guaranteed hits on No Guard. Your opponent's Machamp was running Guts.

 

[Omastar68]

There are more forms of wincons than "sweeping with a setup mon". If your opponent is no longer able to take out your, say Slowbro, that's a wincon. Also, that would mean you need to save your Rhydon as much as possible until late game when everything is in sweeping range, instead of utilizing its great physical bulk to switch into hits. Not to mention Golem also has sweeping capabilities.

Making Zapdos your phaser is a pretty good idea. As for moveset recommendations Roar and Roost are a must. Metal Sound is a bit harder to put on the same set as it literally has the opposite aim from phasing i.e. hoping your opponent stays in so you can damage their -2 spdef. Of course, it will make the opponent want to switch out so you can phase even more for hazard damage, but if they don't switch you p much wasted a turn Metal Sounding. I l recommend Thunderbolt over Volt Switch as you don't often need switching initiative if your opponent doesn't get initiative either thanks to Roar. Of course there's also the option to run both, at the cost of coverage.

And yeah this isn't really the place to discuss mechanics questions but OHKOs are guaranteed hits on No Guard. Your opponent's Machamp was running Guts.

OMG, sorry and thanks. I wouldn't ever think of them running Guts cause...Dynamichpunch. I run Discharge on my Zapdos for the 30% chance to paralyze. The other move is Heat Wave, which gives fairly decent coverage(can't hit stuff like Nidoqueen and Golem at all, but there's nothing you could use to hit everything alongside electric STAB in just one move.) Discharge I'd better if you're not running any SpA EVs-even if you are it's debatable.

 

[Vengeance417]

I've been trying out RP Golem, and let me say: I'm not impressed. While it's faster and fatter, it's not as strong and it forfeits momentum vs Slowbro, unlike Rhydon who can 2HKO most Slowbro variants with Megahorn. Not only that, the extra speed on Golem, imo, isn't all that worth it because Electrode itself is a really niche Pokemon and not that great in general, not to mention that I could easily deal with one if it shows up. Having Zapdos with Roar not only gives me a Fissure immunity but also allows me to run Pursuit Snorlax over Whirlwind.

The team's a bit Venu weak, I've noticed. Any ways to alleviate that?

 

[Omastar68]

I've been trying out RP Golem, and let me say: I'm not impressed. While it's faster and fatter, it's not as strong and it forfeits momentum vs Slowbro, unlike Rhydon who can 2HKO most Slowbro variants with Megahorn. Having Zapdos with Roar not only gives me a Fissure immunity but also allows me to run Pursuit Snorlax over Whirlwind.

The team's a bit Venu weak, I've noticed. Any ways to alleviate that?

Fatter? Golem is 80/130/65. Rhydon's bulk is 105/120/45. Maybe you mean with Sturdy? Or actual weight lol. What was your third attack(alongside EdgeQuake?)

252 Atk Golem Steamroller vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 48-58 (23.7 - 28.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

That's not right. Even with the flinch chance and accuracy still worse than Megahorn. Golem should stay away from boosting. It also has less Atk than Rhydon(base 120 to Rhydon's base 130.)

My team is Venu weak too and I'm trying to fix it. Really hard to think of a great answer to it without resorting to something kind of weird like Hypno, Magmar, or Primeape. Or something extra crazy like a Venu of your own with Amnesia. Curse Venu can prey on the low Def of Venus everywhere, and run Rest without Talk if you got Heal Bell support, tho again I'm reaching. Substitute Zam with Encore works for the most part, though nothing is stopping Venu from switching out to Snorlax who ruins Zam, and then coming back later in the match. Gengar can Taunt Venu and 4x resists its STABs, but paper thin bulk means it takes reasonable damage anyways, and Venu can keep herself healthy.

Someone needs to do something about this monster, since it's difficult to adequately prepare for. I guess you could run Zen Headbutt on Snorlax but meh.

 

[Vengeance417]

Fatter? Golem is 80/130/65. Rhydon's bulk is 105/120/45. Maybe you mean with Sturdy? Or actual weight lol. What was your third attack(alongside EdgeQuake?)

252 Atk Golem Steamroller vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 48-58 (23.7 - 28.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

That's not right. Even with the flinch chance and accuracy still worse than Megahorn. Golem should stay away from boosting. It also has less Atk than Rhydon(base 120 to Rhydon's base 130.)

My team is Venu weak too and I'm trying to fix it. Really hard to think of a great answer to it without resorting to something kind of weird like Hypno, Magmar, or Primeape. Or something extra crazy like a Venu of your own with Amnesia. Curse Venu can prey on the low Def of Venus everywhere, and run Rest without Talk if you got Heal Bell support, tho again I'm reaching. Substitute Zam with Encore works for the most part, though nothing is stopping Venu from switching out to Snorlax who ruins Zam, and then coming back later in the match. Gengar can Taunt Venu and 4x resists its STABs, but paper thin bulk means it takes reasonable damage anyways, and Venu can keep herself healthy.

Someone needs to do something about this monster, since it's difficult to adequately prepare for. I guess you could run Zen Headbutt on Snorlax but meh.

I used Explosion on my last slot. If I felt that Golem couldn't kill something in front of it and I also felt that I didn't need Golem anymore to win, I can explode, do serious damage and I get to bring something in for free. Megahorn Rhydon is definitely superior, as it also OHKOs the rare Exeggutor as well as Starmie, something Golem can never do.

Yeah, not too sure on Venu myself. I'ma ask the KC thread about it.

 

[DonDonKun]

I run a very similar team (then again a lot of teams are looking pretty homogenous at this point, heh) to this on the ladder and I agree that Gengar is a major pain for a bulkier build. I don't have too much to add to what has already been said but I'd second Whirlwind -> Crunch on Snorlax and changing Jolteon to a specially defensive Zapdos set with Thunderbolt/Extrasensory/Roost/Roar or Defog. Zapdos will give you another switch into Gengar and running Extrasensory will prevent opposing Nidokings from walking all over your team. I suggested Crunch over Pursuit on Snorlax because better players will just assume Lax is running Pursuit if it switches into Gengar and will choose to stay in and wisp you. At least with Crunch you'll still be able to 2HKO. Crunch also has the benefit of being more useful if Sleep Talk decides to select it as it does double the damage of Pursuit. Lastly, Crunch can also help you break opposing Slowbro & RestTalk Lax if it gets lucky with the defense drop.

 

[Omastar68]

Minor nitpick a on your Slobro EV spread. Shifting 8 EVs from SpD to HP makes Slowbro slightly bulkier overall, and the chance for Zam to 2HKO only becomes 1.2%-not too bad lol. It also doesn't increase SR damage to run max HP.

The 4 in SpA and Spe could go to Def to reduce the chance of Jolly DNite 2HKOing with an unboosted Outrage, and OHKOing with a +2 one. 4 SpA pretty much does nothing, and the 4 Spe is at best only buying Spe ties with other base 30s since everyone's into speed creeping, so you don't really lose anything by getting rid of them.

 

[Vengeance417]

Minor nitpick a on your Slobro EV spread. Shifting 8 EVs from SpD to HP makes Slowbro slightly bulkier overall, and the chance for Zam to 2HKO only becomes 1.2%-not too bad lol. It also doesn't increase SR damage to run max HP.

The 4 in SpA and Spe could go to Def to reduce the chance of Jolly DNite 2HKOing with an unboosted Outrage, and OHKOing with a +2 one. 4 SpA pretty much does nothing, and the 4 Spe is at best only buying Spe ties with other base 30s since everyone's into speed creeping, so you don't really lose anything by getting rid of them.

I appreciate your advice, but I'm sticking to what I have currently on Slowbro. Creeping opposing base 30s has to be done regardless if I run in to others that do it. Otherwise, I get outsped during an inopportune turn and I can get punished for it depending on the play and the situation. Also, I need the guaranteed 3HKO from Zam's Shadow Ball. I don't want to chance anything.

Outrage Dragonite won't be an issue as long as I keep Clefable alive. I don't see a reason for any decent player to click Outrage when there's a Clefable still alive on the opposing team, and even if he clicks Outrage as I bring Slowbro in and it does 50% or more, I just Regen my health back and go to Clef.

 

[Omastar68]

Feel like Speed creep is really prevalent. I guess my 12 Spe Clef is getting outdated, maybe I need 28 Spe lol?

I didn't think to look at the chance for a 3HKO after SR damage weirdly enough so maybe 244/180 special bulk is best.

I'm using your specially defensive Slowbro spread and it's quite nice. This one guy's Slowbro had Grass Knot, so he was probably expecting to KO or something, but it ended up not doing too much, less than Slack Off healing and only a little more than the healing of Regenerator. Idk how you'd fit, but Substitute Gengar does pretty good vs Venu. I EVd it to have a good chance to not get its sub broke by a single Giga Drain from 252 SoA Timid Venu, and running Hypnosis over WoW gives me a good chance to cripple Venu completely, while Gengar also has a decent chance to 2HKO assuming Venu isn't healing itself.

 

[Vengeance417]

I went with DragonWhale's first suggestion, replacing Jolteon with Zapdos and gave Heal Bell to Clefable over Encore. I also have Snorlax using Crunch over Whirlwind to improve my Gengar matchup.

Here's the Zapdos set I've tried out and it's working pretty well:

Zapdos
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 4 SpA / 188 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Roar
- Roost
- Discharge
- Extrasensory

The special bulk allows Zapdos to have a higher chance of preventing the 2HKO from Gengar's Sludge Wave after Stealth Rocks. The rest goes to physical defense to take Snorlax on as best it can while putting the last 8 EVs in speed (to outpace opposing min speed 100s such as opposing Zapdos and Tentacruel) and Special Attack. Discharge is essentially the Scald of Electric attacks with a 30% paralysis chance and Extrasensory ensures I can hit Nidoking AND Venusaur with a super effective hit, especially when Nido comes in.

Thoughts? Any ways I can invest in the EVs more efficiently or change a move to something else?

 

[Omastar68]

I went with DragonWhale's first suggestion, replacing Jolteon with Zapdos and gave Heal Bell to Clefable over Encore. I also have Snorlax using Crunch over Whirlwind to improve my Gengar matchup.

Here's the Zapdos set I've tried out and it's working pretty well:

Zapdos
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 4 SpA / 188 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Roar
- Roost
- Discharge
- Extrasensory

The special bulk allows Zapdos to have a higher chance of preventing the 2HKO from Gengar's Sludge Wave after Stealth Rocks. The rest goes to physical defense to take Snorlax on as best it can while putting the last 8 EVs in speed (to outpace opposing min speed 100s such as opposing Zapdos and Tentacruel) and Special Attack. Discharge is essentially the Scald of Electric attacks with a 30% paralysis chance and Extrasensory ensures I can hit Nidoking AND Venusaur with a super effective hit, especially when Nido comes in.

Thoughts? Any ways I can invest in the EVs more efficiently or change a move to something else?

I run a very similar Zapdos, except I have 68 Def instead to avoid any chance for +1 DNite to OHKO without rocks, and 20 Spe for 252 Spe Adamant Cloyster. All that is coming from SpD Ofc-HP is still max-and I have 164 SpD with 4 leftover in SpA.

Other than that the only difference is I have Heat Wave rather than Extrasensory. That's not too bad, is it? Not recommending it, but I don't wanna have to ask someone to RNG an Extrasensory Zapdos.

 

[cant say]

Not only that, but it's an XD RNG which is particularly difficult to find, and those that do have one tend to value them. Heat Wave is a fine alternative if you can't source an Extrasensory one.

 

[Vengeance417]

So I've been thinking about using RestTalk Sheer Cold Articuno over Zapdos after reading up about it. It's a damn good set. Still immune to Snorlax's Fissure and can act as a nice Stallbreaker when paired with Machamp. Hell, I'm even thinking about removing Megahorn on Rhydon entirely and using Horn Drill to turn Rhydon in to a wallbreaker early game AND a cleaner late game. Machamp switchins? Psssh.

My issue with having Articuno over Zapdos? Stealth Rocks. I have no hazard remover and Rocks are quad weak to Articuno, but I don't know which hazard remover to use that can fit over any of my team slots. Tentacruel has no recovery at all save useless Giga Drain. Bulky Starmie sounds a bit promising over Slowbro, although I'll miss Regenerator and the much higher bulk that Slowbro possesses.

Thoughts?

 

[cant say]

I've been using bulky Starmie over Slowbro on a lot of my test teams recently and it's been great. It can even revenge Gengar with uninvested Psyshock so running enough speed for that and the rest in bulk works out ok. Rapid Spin, Recover and Thunder Wave / Scald fill out the set... Definitely worth trying out!

 

[Vengeance417]

I've been using bulky Starmie over Slowbro on a lot of my test teams recently and it's been great. It can even revenge Gengar with uninvested Psyshock so running enough speed for that and the rest in bulk works out ok. Rapid Spin, Recover and Thunder Wave / Scald fill out the set... Definitely worth trying out!

I assume this is the set you've been using:

Starmie
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 220 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Thunder Wave

Sounds promising. Stone Edge from Machamp is a 3HKO without rocks which is impressive. I'll try this out with Articuno later.

 

[Omastar68]

So I've been thinking about using RestTalk Sheer Cold Articuno over Zapdos after reading up about it. It's a damn good set. Still immune to Snorlax's Fissure and can act as a nice Stallbreaker when paired with Machamp. Hell, I'm even thinking about removing Megahorn on Rhydon entirely and using Horn Drill to turn Rhydon in to a wallbreaker early game AND a cleaner late game. Machamp switchins? Psssh.

My issue with having Articuno over Zapdos? Stealth Rocks. I have no hazard remover and Rocks are quad weak to Articuno, but I don't know which hazard remover to use that can fit over any of my team slots. Tentacruel has no recovery at all save useless Giga Drain. Bulky Starmie sounds a bit promising over Slowbro, although I'll miss Regenerator and the much higher bulk that Slowbro possesses.

Thoughts?

Interestingly enough, I just replaced my Zapdos with the Articuno you mentioned the other day. It also gives me a SR weakness even tho it's my only rock weak mon, so a bulky Starmie is a good idea. I wonder if Reflect Type over Scald/ T-Wace would be good. Starmie doesn't appreciate its typing at all, and Reflect Type gives it the edge vs electrics and Venusaur. Losing STAB on Psyshock would be bad though.

 

[Vengeance417]

Update on the team. (Jesus I've been working on this team for what feels like ages @_@)

Over Zapdos, we now have:

Articuno
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 Spe
Bold Nature
- Sheer Cold
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Roar

I'm using this majestic beast and it's just been so good. RestTalk Sheer Cold has been coming through with stallbreaking while still giving me a phasing option. The physical bulk allows me to take on Snorlax as best I can, and it can do this well with the looming threat of Sheer Cold and Pressure PP Stalling Body Slam. The speed is to outpace max speed Jolly Machamp (something I ran in to on the ladder and now I'm paranoid lmao). I might dial it back down to outpacing max speed Adamant Machamp to give me more bulk, but my team can't chance it without Slowbro. Speaking of which:

Over Slowbro, we now have:

Starmie
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 220 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Thunder Wave

I posted this set earlier, but I now have a hazard removing option in Starmie. Uninvested Psyshock is capable of OHKOing Gengar while Rapid Spin clears away the Stealth Rocks that now drastically harm our new teammate in Articuno. Recover gives me a way to heal myself to keep my hazard remover healthy while Thunder Wave cripples the likes of Dragonite and Gyarados to prevent them from setting up for a sweep. The speed is to outpace Gengar while the rest goes in to HP and Defense.

While using this variation of the team, I have started to notice that Jolteon started to become harder to deal with. This has forced me to start running a more specially defensive Snorlax, like so:

Snorlax
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 50
EVs: 28 HP / 100 Atk / 108 Def / 252 SpD / 20 Spe
Careful Nature
- Body Slam
- Crunch
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Same as before, 100 Attack is to ensure the 2HKO on Minimize Clefable while 20 speed creeps opposing Snorlax and the defense ensures Alakazam's Psyshock won't 2HKO after rocks. Max special defense has been added to make up for the loss of specially defensive Slowbro.

 

[Omastar68]

Update on the team. (Jesus I've been working on this team for what feels like ages @_@)

Over Zapdos, we now have:

Articuno
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 Spe
Bold Nature
- Sheer Cold
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Roar

I'm using this majestic beast and it's just been so good. RestTalk Sheer Cold has been coming through with stallbreaking while still giving me a phasing option. The physical bulk allows me to take on Snorlax as best I can, and it can do this well with the looming threat of Sheer Cold and Pressure PP Stalling Body Slam. The speed is to outpace max speed Jolly Machamp (something I ran in to on the ladder and now I'm paranoid lmao). I might dial it back down to outpacing max speed Adamant Machamp to give me more bulk, but my team can't chance it without Slowbro. Speaking of which:

Over Slowbro, we now have:

Starmie
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 220 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Thunder Wave

I posted this set earlier, but I now have a hazard removing option in Starmie. Uninvested Psyshock is capable of OHKOing Gengar while Rapid Spin clears away the Stealth Rocks that now drastically harm our new teammate in Articuno. Recover gives me a way to heal myself to keep my hazard remover healthy while Thunder Wave cripples the likes of Dragonite and Gyarados to prevent them from setting up for a sweep. The speed is to outpace Gengar while the rest goes in to HP and Defense.

While using this variation of the team, I have started to notice that Jolteon started to become harder to deal with. This has forced me to start running a more specially defensive Snorlax, like so:

Snorlax
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 50
EVs: 28 HP / 100 Atk / 108 Def / 252 SpD / 20 Spe
Careful Nature
- Body Slam
- Crunch
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Same as before, 100 Attack is to ensure the 2HKO on Minimize Clefable while 20 speed creeps opposing Snorlax and the defense ensures Alakazam's Psyshock won't 2HKO after rocks. Max special defense has been added to make up for the loss of specially defensive Slowbro.

My Articuno runs 252 HP/ 172 Def/ 84 SpD instead, is that bad? The set is otherwise the same.i didn't realize Machamp run that much Spe-I thought they just like to speed creep Clefable. So they'd have like 82 or 83 Soe at level 50.

EVs are so difficult. I may want a specially bulky Snorlax as well, so I might copy you. You sure are going all in on the speed creep lol.

 

[Vengeance417]

My Articuno runs 252 HP/ 172 Def/ 84 SpD instead, is that bad? The set is otherwise the same.i didn't realize Machamp run that much Spe-I thought they just like to speed creep Clefable. So they'd have like 82 or 83 Soe at level 50.

EVs are so difficult. I may want a specially bulky Snorlax as well, so I might copy you. You sure are going all in on the speed creep lol.

I was actually running that spread on Articuno before seeing that it was essentially a mixed bulk set until I realized people ran max speed Machamp (that's not a good spread imo...Machamp needs bulk to take at least one hit). So now there are no Machamps capable of killing Articuno 1v1 unless I run in to some shitty Guts set lmao.

Oh, I forgot to mention. I'm running this on Rhydon now and it's just been so fun:

Rhydon
Ability: Lightningrod
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Polish
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Horn Drill

Machamp is no longer a Stone Edge switchin lmao

This set is really fun. It basically gives Rhydon a dual purpose in matches as a wallbreaker early game and a cleaner late game. At the start of the match, I just click Horn Drill on the incoming Slowbros or Machamps or w/e hoping for a quick OHKO and then once its defensive checks have been eliminated, the Rock Polish EdgeQuake sweep can begin. What a beast of a mon this is lmao

 

[Omastar68]

I'm wondering how your team is doing. I noticed you don't have anything to set up SR, and yet you have Roar on Zapdos. Defog seems like it'd be kinda a waste tho since you have two resists and the thing weak to rocks would be the defogger.

I've been trying to make a team keeping both a cleric and an SR setter, while also getting rid of Chansey like you suggested, but I feel like I really need a cleric, while no SR setter makes Roar on Articuno awkward. I could use Freeze-Dry instead, but my Art's SpA IV is 30, and considering my SpD IV is 30 too(stupid RNG limitations, but at least I get a 0 Atk IV,) I really can't afford to waste more EVs.

So that makes me think I can't get rid if my SR setter, and I'm wondering how you do without one.