He was comparing Pinsir to Cranidos because someone was insinuating Cranidos was too powerful for UU.
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NFE Pokemon in UU
- Thread starter Phuquoph
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He was comparing Pinsir to Cranidos because someone was insinuating Cranidos was too powerful for UU.
I think NFE in UU is pretty much bullcrap. I mean FFS, Chansey and Blissey differ where, 30 Sp. Def and 5 HP?
This way, UU can be the exact same standard crap as OU, just with mini-me things? Tier List is debated enough, I don't think adding a whole 'nother crap storm of deciding which NFE's are ok and which aren't would make it any easier.
I actually think an NFE Tier or "B-Button League" would be freaking amazing, but as it's own tier.
This way, UU can be the exact same standard crap as OU, just with mini-me things? Tier List is debated enough, I don't think adding a whole 'nother crap storm of deciding which NFE's are ok and which aren't would make it any easier.
I actually think an NFE Tier or "B-Button League" would be freaking amazing, but as it's own tier.
Dragontamer said:
Note: I'll be including different types than their parents for completion, ignore if you wish. Also, I'm exluding Onix because it blows.
Listoring:
Charmeleon (Pure fire)
Pikachu (Light Ball gives it better attacking stats)
Rhydon (Rock Head)
Seadra (Poison Point)
Tangela (speed)
Scyther (speed)
Electabuzz (speed, Static)
Magmar (speed)
Dragonair (pure Dragon)
Murkrow (speed)
Sneasel (Inner Focus)
Porygon2 (defenses)
Pupitar (Rock/Ground)
Vigoroth (Vital Spirit)
Trapinch (Arena Trap)
Duskull (Levitate)
Shelgon (defense)
Riolu (pure Fighting)
Skorupi (Bug/Poison)
Err...you seem to be forgetting the obvious point that even if NFE Pokemon are allowed, their power levels are taken into consideration for their tier. Chansey would definitely be BL.
One thing I don't understand, though...where are people going with all this "OU lite" stuff? The NFE pokemon would have to be of a similar level to be usable in UU, so any ones that are too powerful aren't going to be allowed. There's also the fact that many OU pokemon don't have unevolved forms, or have unevolved forms that are unusuable (lol, Magikarp). Even if all NFE pokemon were allowed, UU is still UU. It's not like all the UU pokemon will suddenly vanish or be outclassed by NFE pokemon.
Actually, wouldn't letting more NFE pokemon in UU increase the number of pokemon there are to choose from when building a team? Increasing the number of options you have when making a team is usually a good thing.
Think that traditionally, people have wanted to see different strategies and different things happening in UU than in OU, which is why that there has been a traditional fear of this "OU lite" concept. Might be unfounded now though as many UU pokes have serious powered up compared to many of the NFE. :/
I think that in the past there was a worry because many OU pokes attained their place over UU counterparts in part because of superior movepools/traits, problems that would have been unchanged using NFEs. However, with many UUs getting much superior movepools . . .
I think that in the past there was a worry because many OU pokes attained their place over UU counterparts in part because of superior movepools/traits, problems that would have been unchanged using NFEs. However, with many UUs getting much superior movepools . . .
Like I said: Show me proof that using Chansey in UU would be any more unabalncing than Blissey in OU. There are many viable counters that fall under the UU category, some able to OHKO max/max + def nature, and many more can 2hko it. "Seismic Toss" is not a valid answer. If NFE's are allowed in UU, I see no reason why Chansey wouldn't be a fine addition.
Chansey also has a base 35 special attack, as opposed to 75 on blissey.
But I don't like the idea of chansey in UU. I just hate blissey in OU, so chansey, I just don't want to see anymore. I guess this falls under the "the idea of eliminating OU-lite isn't so bad" category.
I agree, I would HATE to see Chansey in UU. But would he be too powerful? No. Would he be viable? Yes.
See, this really is the key.
If you want to base NFEs purely on power then you will realize that after some testing, stuff like Chansey, Kadabra, Haunter, etc might become standards in UU, but do not by any means overpower the competition. You can't just say on one hand 'Oh we don't need them in UU, I hate seeing them in standard' and then on the other allow stuff like Gligar. It's not going to work that way.
Which is why it's been common practice in the past to boot 'em all from UU. -_-
I still agree with that stance, honestly. Only pokemon that are very different in some way should even be considered. I'm not talking about just a couple stat points here or there either. Scyther is worth considering because his typing and stats are extremely different from Scizors, resulting in mostly different movesets/spreads. Stuff like Vigoroth and Trapinch are set far apart from their evolutions as well, and are model examples of this reasoning. On the other hand, speed does very little to differentiate Magmar from Magmortar and Murkrow from Honchkrow, and minor differences such as Sneasel having Inner Focus/Keen Eye are in the end pretty laughable.
Oh, you mean like Glaceon? Don't forget, Choice Specs are not banned from UU, and I believe Thyphlosion also isn't yet, either.
Not quite sure what your point is though, without hard hitting special attackers Chansey of course loses much of it's usefulness, making it even less powerful by comparison in the UU metagame, further reinforcing my point.
Also Clamperl with Deepseatooth/scale has more Sp. Attack/Defense than it's evolutions. Poliwhirl has more speed than the evos too.
In my opinion, this is the best solution: to test most debatable NFEs in UU and see if they're too powerful for it, or at least if they overcentralize the metagame.
Mostly I left out Surski and Nincada because, well: They suck.
Example: Surskit only barely edges out Masquerain with Hydro Pump damage only because of STAB. Surskit has the weakest Hydro Pump of any UU water type. It also has the weakest Signal Beam of any Bug, and doesn't even get Bug Buzz.
Nincada would be cooler if it got Earthquake, but it doesn't so essentially its a bad Sandslash. Sandslash even does more with X-Scissor than Nincada.
I left out Poliwhirl because Politoed is still UU and both of them are water. If you really want to discuss it though I guess we can, but I find it difficult to make an argument for a pokemon that needs to lose 50% of its health unscathed to do any damage to anything. I really don't see what BellyWhirl does in UU that BellyWrath, which gets fighting STAB, better attack, actually has the defenses to set up, and still outspeeds everything in UU after a Salac Berry. 306 Speed Hypnosis is cool to setup BD, but even then 916 attack is wanting for a Belly Drummer, and Hypnosis still has the problem of 70% acc.
Example: Surskit only barely edges out Masquerain with Hydro Pump damage only because of STAB. Surskit has the weakest Hydro Pump of any UU water type. It also has the weakest Signal Beam of any Bug, and doesn't even get Bug Buzz.
Nincada would be cooler if it got Earthquake, but it doesn't so essentially its a bad Sandslash. Sandslash even does more with X-Scissor than Nincada.
I left out Poliwhirl because Politoed is still UU and both of them are water. If you really want to discuss it though I guess we can, but I find it difficult to make an argument for a pokemon that needs to lose 50% of its health unscathed to do any damage to anything. I really don't see what BellyWhirl does in UU that BellyWrath, which gets fighting STAB, better attack, actually has the defenses to set up, and still outspeeds everything in UU after a Salac Berry. 306 Speed Hypnosis is cool to setup BD, but even then 916 attack is wanting for a Belly Drummer, and Hypnosis still has the problem of 70% acc.
Typhlosion WILL be out of UU, that much I'm sure of. And I don't think that Glaceon alone warrants stuffing Chansey into UU. And if it does, well thats reason enough to make Glaceon BL. Do you really want to see Chansey in UU? It'll take out all the fun and make it like OU.....
I saw we either:
'Allow' every NFE Pokemon, then ban a few odd ones that would break the metagame, such as Porygon 2, Chansey, Rhydon etc.
Or we ban all of them. All this second option means is that things like Trapinch and Vigaroth would see no use. Things like Pikachu, Scyther, Rhydon, Porygon 2 etc are actually all viable in OU/BL and would thus still be used.
EDIT: The only final option would be to allow everything (except for the obvious bans stated above) that was fully evolved in a previous generation. This includes stuff like Gligar, Electabuzz, Magmar, Tangela et al being playable in UU. This could get very nitty-gritty though, as some people would want to ban OU-lites (see:Gligar), but allow Pokemon with big differences, such as Electabuzz or Scyther. Where would the line be drawn?
'Allow' every NFE Pokemon, then ban a few odd ones that would break the metagame, such as Porygon 2, Chansey, Rhydon etc.
Or we ban all of them. All this second option means is that things like Trapinch and Vigaroth would see no use. Things like Pikachu, Scyther, Rhydon, Porygon 2 etc are actually all viable in OU/BL and would thus still be used.
EDIT: The only final option would be to allow everything (except for the obvious bans stated above) that was fully evolved in a previous generation. This includes stuff like Gligar, Electabuzz, Magmar, Tangela et al being playable in UU. This could get very nitty-gritty though, as some people would want to ban OU-lites (see:Gligar), but allow Pokemon with big differences, such as Electabuzz or Scyther. Where would the line be drawn?
Glaceon has such a limited movepool, it's ridiculous. Choice specs Blizzard/Ice Beam hurt, but there are so many water types down there that I don't think it's too big of a problem. Plus, it's pure ice. It's the worst defensive type in the game.
Right now, I think the main problem with NFEs in UU is: are NFEs even strong enough? I would say, on average, UU pokemon have around 450-480 base stats, fairly limited movepools, etc.
A lot of NFE pokemon really, really suck. I was using Dragonair on shoddy. Other than outrage it has nothing going for it. 61/65/70 for defenses bites. And with only 84 attack, it won't be hitting hard.
Heres some base stats of some "UU" NFEs.
-Dragonair:420 -Charmeleon:405 -Cubone:320 -Cranidos:350 -Kadabra:400 -Haunter:405 -Electabuzz:490 -Magmar:495 -Gligar:430 -Togetic:405 -Magneton:465 Tangela: 435 Piloswine:450 -Sneasel:430 -Murkrow:405 -Misdreavus:435 -Pikachu:300
-Golbat:455 -Yanma:390 -Duskull: 295 -Skorupi: 330 -Riolu: 285 -Pupitar: 410 -Eevee: 325
Pikachu gets light ball, so he's still OK.
Stuff like Kadabra, Haunter, Electabuzz, and Magmar will have to be tested out. In my expeirience, they are OK, but nothing UU cant handle. Considering we have stuff like Octillery, Hitmontop and Vileplume runnin around, they can be kept in check.
EDIT: to prove my point, some NU pokemon like Chimecho and Masquerien have better stats than some of these NFEs you guys are talking about. I mean, Riolu? Duskull!??! Eevee!?!!!? Some high end UU would tear these apart.
Right now, I think the main problem with NFEs in UU is: are NFEs even strong enough? I would say, on average, UU pokemon have around 450-480 base stats, fairly limited movepools, etc.
A lot of NFE pokemon really, really suck. I was using Dragonair on shoddy. Other than outrage it has nothing going for it. 61/65/70 for defenses bites. And with only 84 attack, it won't be hitting hard.
Heres some base stats of some "UU" NFEs.
-Dragonair:420 -Charmeleon:405 -Cubone:320 -Cranidos:350 -Kadabra:400 -Haunter:405 -Electabuzz:490 -Magmar:495 -Gligar:430 -Togetic:405 -Magneton:465 Tangela: 435 Piloswine:450 -Sneasel:430 -Murkrow:405 -Misdreavus:435 -Pikachu:300
-Golbat:455 -Yanma:390 -Duskull: 295 -Skorupi: 330 -Riolu: 285 -Pupitar: 410 -Eevee: 325
Pikachu gets light ball, so he's still OK.
Stuff like Kadabra, Haunter, Electabuzz, and Magmar will have to be tested out. In my expeirience, they are OK, but nothing UU cant handle. Considering we have stuff like Octillery, Hitmontop and Vileplume runnin around, they can be kept in check.
EDIT: to prove my point, some NU pokemon like Chimecho and Masquerien have better stats than some of these NFEs you guys are talking about. I mean, Riolu? Duskull!??! Eevee!?!!!? Some high end UU would tear these apart.
Forgot Eevee--Adaptability and Normal STAB.
Now what I'd really love to see is all 493 Pokemon in a tier list, maybe with even more tiers. For example, Charizard is too strong for UU, so you could use Charmeleon there. But, if Charmeleon is too strong for NU (not sure if it is), you could even use Charmander there.
I realise this would be too much work for the people who put together the tier list, so it probably won't happen. Nevertheless, I'd like to see as many usable NFE Pokemon in the BL, UU and NU tiers as possible. And I don't care if it would make UU OU-lite (although I doubt it would happen too, as there are a lot of Fully Evolved Pokemon to use there as well).
I realise this would be too much work for the people who put together the tier list, so it probably won't happen. Nevertheless, I'd like to see as many usable NFE Pokemon in the BL, UU and NU tiers as possible. And I don't care if it would make UU OU-lite (although I doubt it would happen too, as there are a lot of Fully Evolved Pokemon to use there as well).
Guys, we're not voting on which pokemon should go where.
That's a matter for the UU/BL discussion thread.
We should be talking about *how* to sort the pokemon.
That's a matter for the UU/BL discussion thread.
We should be talking about *how* to sort the pokemon.
I frequented the UU tier in Advance and Gligar was always a pain to deal with unless I had a sweeping Water Poke. It just got worse, with Roost, Life Orb, Stone Edge and Rock Polish/SD Passing. Heck SD LO EQ/Stone Edge will really clean up a LOT of stuff in UU. None of the levitators there resist Stone Edge. Grass types can still be hit pretty damn hard by Aerial Ace, so they will be loath to switch in. Its a menace, and I'd really hate so see it in UU. Oh, and I have also played with it in D/P and found that after SD, even max/max Walrein takes a beating with Stone Edge(80% min), so SR+Stone Edge=1 dead Walrus.
Are you serious!? Gligar has at most 273 attack. AT MOST. As in 252 ATK EVs, Adamant Nature. Unless you're using stuff like baby forms, Gligar won't leave much of a dent unless you let it swords dance. Even then, it can't take a special hit. Surf, Ice Beam, even Energy Ball will lay waste to it.
Baton Passing is the best thing it can do.
EDIT: Impish 252 DEF 252 HP Gligar would get 2HKOd by Kingler/Crawdaunt's Crabhammer. It would surely die to a surf.
Baton Passing is the best thing it can do.
EDIT: Impish 252 DEF 252 HP Gligar would get 2HKOd by Kingler/Crawdaunt's Crabhammer. It would surely die to a surf.
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