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Lower Tiers Doubles OU Viability Rankings

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Rotom-H -> 3

Okay first of all, never, in the entirety of the time in which I have played doubles, have I found a useful role for rotom-h that could not either be filled by another, better mon, or that was actually that necessary to the team. The only time i could think of using rotom-h is if your team can't handle char-y or talon whatsoever, Aand in that case i would use ancient power tran before i threw this moon on my team. It's so much dead weight after one overheat, which can be easily played around, and even with defense investment in order to live shots from diancie and rotom-w and all that, it still doesn't win any of those match ups. It's at best a niche mon that fits far better in tier 3 than it does in tier 2.
 
jirachi to 1, do I even need to explain this?

agree with heattom.

problem 1 with the sharp statement is thinking that steel type = diancie answer. Answers are based on individual mons, not an entire type, even if said individuals take up the entire pool of viable mons with said type. sharp doesn't beat diancie, it isn't supposed to beat diancie, you're typecasting it into something it's not. It's meant to shape the flow of the game vs. intimidate/icy wind users while not being completely deadweight if the opp doesn't have them. Think of it more as an offensive support instead of a DPS powerhouse, and only treat it as said powerhouse in-game if you manage to get a defiant boost.

that said if you're insane you can run scarfsharp for a really good diancie lure
 
jirachi to 1, do I even need to explain this?

We just voted on Jirachi on the previous vote. So we will not be revoting on Jirachi for a bit. I would suggest reading our reasons for not having it rise to Tier 1.

Also the new round of vrank votes is coming shortly.
 
Vrank shifts posted at a reasonable hour for once

Votes are in the order KyleCole, Stratos, kamikaze, qsns, TOTEM

Greninja 3 -> 4

Sure. Niche as hell, and I haven't seen a game with Greninja in awhile so I'm down with the down heh.

Yeah idt it has enough offensive power to ever really be MVP

Yes.

Yea I was gonna make this nom right before tree did, it's so weak and fits on a basically dead team archetype

agree, it was only 3 because that was the lowest tier at the time
Gastrodon UR -> 4
GLOP. yes

No, ive only ever seen it be bad really

Abstain

glop glop. its aight 4 seems fine lol

yeah i love gastro it owns
Mega Charizard Y 1 -> 1.5
no, I know it has a poor SPL record but Zard Y is still a super powerful mon. Metagame defining force etc. I think the reason that it's doing poorly is that people aren't using Overheat.

Abstain. The main reason I think zard could afford to drop is cuz most zard teams end up looking real similar. But it's definitely a strong AF mon.

No. Zard Y is disgustingly powerful. I actually am a big fan of offensive overheat zard, even when Stratos tried to hype up bulky zard. It has obvious weaknesses to Offensive Thundurus and Mega Diancie but that is patchable in teambuilding and just because a lot of Zard teams look similar, does not mean that it is any less effective.

CharY roasts everything w/o an immunity including most resists, and it's easy to prepare for them in teambuilding. I think venu sun is bad as it just compounds the talon/tran weakness but thats for another nom, this mon is hella dangerous

i JUST won w/ it in spl, i dont like to use it but its GOOD
Abomasnow 4 -> UR
yes. Garbo.

Hell yes, this has been used on one semi successful team ever and its a shit mon

Yes.

yea i didn't want this ranked in the first place why did you guys vote this on .___.

well i like it but im the only one, sash can do things if ur good
Diancie 4 -> UR
Abstain.

Hell yes, ive been harping on this for forever

Abstain.

abstain

nah this is fine in 4, gets explosion and u can use weakness policy, explosion is also the best move in the game
Hariyama 4 -> UR
no, has a small niche as a TR support for when you dont want Scrafty

No, still think its cool for TR to get a fake out that doesnt trigger Bisharp or use ur mega slot so i think its got a niche

No. Its a Fake Out user that provides Wide Guard (so many TR teams have this bad habit of having a lack of eq immune pokemon) and also a bisharp check that doesnt trigger Defiant. Also it doesnt hit like a wet noodle (looking at you Scrafty)

nah yama's fine, whole bisharp thing + its CC hits like a god damn truck compared to non orb Scrafty

this is fine in four it does good stuff
Raichu 4 -> UR
definitely not, has some cool uses with Fake Out/Encore/Nuzzle and a solid 110 speed tier. Nothing feels better than bringing a lightning rod Pokemon and seeing your opponent has a Thundurus at preview.

Hell yes. It beats thund, and loses to every other Pokemon in the metagame. Hitmontop 2.0 but worse somehow

Abstain.

it's fine i guess? good support alongside an azu but i'd never consider using it without that

what no, raichu is good @ support
Mega Gyarados UR -> 4
No. I've never seen this in a game, never mind winning anything

No. Shououts tree for using mgyara in seasonals to prove it was good, and losing.

No.

no lol

it's close to four but not quite there

Final Changes:
Greninja moves from Tier 3 to 4
Gastrodon moves from Tier UR to 4
Abomasnow moves from Tier 4 to UR
 
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Rotom-H -> 3

Okay first of all, never, in the entirety of the time in which I have played doubles, have I found a useful role for rotom-h that could not either be filled by another, better mon, or that was actually that necessary to the team. The only time i could think of using rotom-h is if your team can't handle char-y or talon whatsoever, Aand in that case i would use ancient power tran before i threw this moon on my team. It's so much dead weight after one overheat, which can be easily played around, and even with defense investment in order to live shots from diancie and rotom-w and all that, it still doesn't win any of those match ups. It's at best a niche mon that fits far better in tier 3 than it does in tier 2.
Exhibit A:
hey i know im not technically in charge of this thread but please stop nominating:
  • thundurus to 1
  • kyurem-b to 1
  • rotom-h to 3
every fucking month
Exhibit B:

Rotom-H blanket checks:
  • Talonflame
  • Charizard Y
  • Steels (completely walls Heatran, hits others for good damage)
  • Pixilate Hyper Voice Users
  • Amoonguss (granted its not using Sitrus Berry)
and can provide support with WoW OR Yellow Magic.
 
ok but that was like 3 months ago, not "every voting round", id be fine with voting on it now

add jirachi to 1 to the list of noms to shut the fuck up about tho

edit: and talon to 1.5
 
skymin didn't even drop???
edit: oh my god i'm retarded and bad at reading shoot me please ;_;
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I would like to propose an amendment to the vr (actually I would like to propose 2, but I'll get into that later). A good portion of the mons in 4 is admittedly not used and hasn't been known to get wins, such as serperior, whimsicott, or raichu (whimsicott I nommed and I still stand by it as on par to the others named, but it's simply not got a record at all). I think that things which we sort of theorymon about but haven't been successful in tiers 3 and 4 should be in a separate category listed below the other tiers rather than suggesting them to people without really knowing enough about how to win with them ourselves. I include 3 in this proposition because of things like darkrai and genesect which see little to no usage yet are still ranked above chesnaught, clefable, and tyranitar which iirc all showed up in the finals of doubles open.
I would also like to propose a second amendment similar to the previous in which all things from 2', 3, and 4 which you would build a team around rather than place onto a team (ex: charizard x) be placed in a separate category as well. The descriptions clearly suggest that they are meant to fill a specific role when in actuality you fill in other roles around them to make them work. I did suggest both descriptions for 3 and 4 lol but they very well fit all of the things except for like zard x, aero, and politoed.
I would suggest that, if my ideas be implemented, the categories added not have a number attached to their name so that viability interpretations are not messed up.
 
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Well it's not because skymin dropped (it didn't even drop???) it's just the timing of rotom-w losing viability as a big tier shift occurred.
I would not support a drop to 3 mostly because rotom-w still has a really useful typing defensively and offensively, smacking lando-t across the face and standing in the way of all talonflames, and gets good utility in will-o-wisp/thunder wave/light screen (not as used as the others or as good, but good regardless), while having the ability to use different types of sets altogether (bulky utility/trickscarf/tr attacker). When compared to something in 2 such as terrakion, which brings taunt/quick guard to the table alongside killing kanga/zard, or maybe something in tier 3 like conkeldurr, whose sole purpose is to kill bisharp without activating defiant for a tr team and i guess nab a KO on kangaskhan, there are many key differences between rotom-w and these guys.
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I would like to propose an amendment to the vr (actually I would like to propose 2, but I'll get into that later). A good portion of the mons in 4 is admittedly not used and hasn't been known to get wins, such as serperior, whimsicott, or raichu (whimsicott I nommed and I still stand by it as on par to the others named, but it's simply not got a record at all). I think that things which we sort of theorymon about but haven't been successful in tiers 3 and 4 should be in a separate category listed below the other tiers rather than suggesting them to people without really knowing enough about how to win with them ourselves. I include 3 in this proposition because of things like darkrai and genesect which see little to no usage yet are still ranked above chesnaught, clefable, and tyranitar which iirc all showed up in the finals of doubles open.
I would also like to propose a second amendment similar to the previous in which all things from 2', 3, and 4 which you would build a team around rather than place onto a team (ex: charizard x) be placed in a separate category as well. The descriptions clearly suggest that they are meant to fill a specific role when in actuality you fill in other roles around them to make them work. I did suggest both descriptions for 3 and 4 lol but they very well fit all of the things except for like zard x, aero, and politoed.
I would suggest that, if my ideas be implemented, the categories added not have a number attached to their name so that viability interpretations are not messed up.
The move was for heattom from 2 -> 3, not washtom
 
Hoopa-U from Tier 2' to Tier 2
It's pretty clear that hoopa can fit on a ton of different teams(ZardY/Diancie Offense, Kang Balance, TR) and can run a decent number of sets such as scarf, LO, sash TR (goggles??). It doesn't need nearly as much support as was expected when it was released. Still waiting for hoopa to be viable enough to go to 1.5, but moving it to 2 for now should be fine.

Darkrai from Tier 3 to Tier 4
I've honestly never felt that darkrai would fit bettrr on a team than something else. I guess it does have a niche of beating latios+diancie with hp steel, but having the strongest attack on a frail offensive mon be 80bp dark pulse really sucks. It fails to get any of the ohkos other darks such as hydrei, bish, or hoopa get, and mono dark does nothing special for it offensively/defensively. Swagger thund+Foul play seems interesting but I haven't seen it used enough/work well enough to have an opinion on it.
 
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could we remove gourgeist
get no use, niche tr setter makes you really weak to stuff like tran. its like the worse setter, its outclassed by cresselia jirachi or jellicent anytime.
 
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yo venusaur sucks ass and literally holds back the sun-archetype on which non mega venusaurs pretty much has to run on like shit whats it add other than a fast 75 accuracy sleep (give it spore fuck) and another way to beat diancie? does that last one even matter since any decent sun has like lando and aegislash OR LITERALLY ANY 2-3 COMBINATION TO BEAT DIANCIE? like if anyone has used chlorosaur and not found it to be either a) almost negligible in terms of impact b) only sorta useful but like something else easily coulda done what it did or c) fucking dead weight fuck am i playing 6 on 5 for then please speak up.

ANYWAY to three please :D

also megasnow too considering it hasnt seen use since like skymin or megamence was legal AND i mean compared to some of the shit in the rest of 2' both these things suck dick
 
I don't know where the venusaur hate is coming from I actually think it's quite good :( maybe if some of you haters ran overheat on zard you would have more fun in the sun :)

Also fwiw yeah it's SPL w/l was ass but so was Hoopa's and that mon is a threat and a half.

I guess I agree with venusaur for 3 but I really think y'all are givin it too much hate:( Try wide lens to help with Powder, it's my favourite Venu item for sure.
 
Time for some noms.
Rises:
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Tier 1.5 to Tier 1
Thundurus is good, never dead weight with Twave/Swagger/Tbolt/HP Ice/Flash Cannon, you just choose what your team needs and go from there. Also can use loads of items like Life Orb, Zap Plate, Safety Goggles, and Sash on the fast set. Huge presence in SPL shows that the tippity top of the playerbase all agrees that this thing is a force.
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Tier 2 to Tier 1.5
Gengar really is a great pick. Single handedly dismantles THALK squads and pretty much any balanced/defensively oriented team with a fairly flexible move pool. Great showing in SPL, I personally brought regular Gengar twice to SPL and never regretted it and I know I'm not the only one. I've also seen and used less standard sets like Substitute and Rain Dance to good effect. If you don't believe me give Gengar a try. I expect Gengar to get super popular regardless of if it moves on the VR or not so don't fall behind the curve!
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Tier 2 to Tier 1.5
Next best intimidate user after Landorus-T. Quick Guard Scrafty is a recent set to catch on that has raised the viability of Trick Room teams (and Scrafty on it's own obviously) by a ton. You can run a ton of items and sets including Lum Berry, Life Orb, or even the hated Assault Vest. Saw a bit of attention in SPL and I personally used it twice, winning both times. Another underrated mon that I expect to pick up a lot of usage soon.
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Tier 2 to Tier 1.5
Bunnies is annoying but it's also a super easy way to win games against any caliber of player. You also don't need to use it on a completely gimmick squad or brainless HO to make it work.

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Tier 2 to Tier 1.5
This one is harder to justify using SPL stats than my other nominations, but it's probably the one I feel the most confident about (ok maybe Azu is most). Hoopa-U may be the best Trick Room setter no one is using fsr but if it catches on it will change the way people prepare for trick room. No more relying on Substitute Heatran or Aegislash as your Trick Room checks because Hoopa will flatten them. Oh you lead Amoonguss? Ok Hoopa will just set up Trick Room after it KOs you. Even with a pitiful Def stat you can run this with Scrafty and you no longer have a problem (40 def EVs lets Hoopa-U survive a -1 Kangakshan Return). Even though it has a bad SPL record I think that the Trick Room set alone boosts it's viability. Hoopa is Soopa.

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Tier 3 to Tier 2
Mew is wonderful on the classic Bunnies teams but it is by no means restricted to those squads. I personally like using it with Kangaskhan to take some of the defensive pressure off of Kang and allowing for more PuP stomping. Mew is the most flexible support mon in the game. There really isn't much to say here, everyone knows it can use Fake Out, Wisp, Icy Wind, Tailwind, Transform, Ally Switch, and pretty much everything else. Mews SPL record speaks for it.

Drops:
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Tier 1 to Tier 1.5
Keldeo is a good Pokemon. No one is saying it isn't, but Keld just is not in the same league as it's fellow Tier 1 mons, most of whom have almost no drawbacks to using unlike Keldeo. When I try to build with Keldeo I always feel like it creates more problems than it solves. It's a water type that loses to Diancie, a water that loses to 2/3 of the most common fires (Char and Talon, though it has quick guard to help against Talon tbf), a fighting that can't switch into Kangaskhan, and a Landorus-T check that can't switch into it's STAB move. If your opponent even has Azumarill + Redirection on their team then it can be almost impossible to even bring Keldeo onto the field without giving a free BD. A much more limiting Pokemon than the other Tier 1 Pokemon who I can use nearly anything alongside, Keldeo is just too restricting. It has the same # of uses in SPL as Azumarill as I write this post and has a much weaker record than the other water type.
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Tier 1.5 -> 2'
I like Bisharp a lot, but Defiant alone isn't enough to justify Bisharp being in the same tier as Latios, Thundy, and Jirachi. Especially given that Bisharp cannot KO Landorus-T 100% of the time even with a Life Orb and gets owned by Scrafty. Why use a mon to block intimidate or take advantage of it, when the 2 most viable Intimidate Pokemon beat it? I think a move to 2 would more accurately represent its viability.
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Tier 2 -> Tier 3
Completely useless. I think this has been nommed already and a few times in the past, but much like my nomination for Thundurus I won't give up. I'm not even sure what kind of team this would fit on. Talonflame sets with Wisp work better alongside Metagross the majority of the time, and is a much better sun check overall. On more balanced team Heatran is the dominant fire type. Rotom-Heat is unique in that it moves slower and doesn't actually take a hit from both Charizard + Venusaur but is still considered a sun check fsr. Does Rotom-H really belong in the same tier as Sylveon, Mega Gardevoir, and Mega Gengar?
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Tier 2' to Tier 3
Much like my Salamence nomination I make this one grudgingly, but the results don't lie. Cresselia is just too big of a momentum suck and even Offensive Cresselia sets just aren't offensive enough to turn the tide of a game. As much as CM cresselia isn't that good I do think that it happens to be Cresselia's most viable set, Cress just isn't all that viable to begin with.

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Tier 2 to Tier 3
Just use Talonflame and a better fighting type. No one is surprised when Blaziken clicks HP Ice so you can't catch Landorus-T. Blaziken teams just look like the creator of the team was more motivated by wanting to use Blaziken than they were by winning. Currently 0-3 in SPL, but I don't think that Blaziken is a bad mon, just not as viable as the other Tier 2 mons.
 
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do you run protect on Gengar? I didn't really like it very much then I started running protect and I liked it a lot more. Lets you, well, have protect (duh) which is always nice but also lets you dodge scrappy FO and the obvious lando u-turn when it's coming. More often than not I find myself running dual stab + wisp + protect, but I'm not sure what other people run so I thought I might as well ask.
 
Hoopa-U may be the best Trick Room setter no one is using fsr but if it catches on it will change the way people prepare for trick room.
I've been singing the praises of TR hoopa with Safety Goggles for months

agree/dont disagree with all expect gengar
my main reason for adding gengar usually is kang immune wisp. Then I end up switching to Sableye 90% of the time. The other 10% time I keep gengar is because I feel like more power is needed on my team and I maybe too fairy weak.
Gengar set I have been running is dual stab/icy wind/wisp. Then recognize I dont have taunt and think Quash is speed control that works against TR teams and go back to sableye. gengar is like 2.5 imo
 
my main reason for adding gengar usually is kang immune wisp. Then I end up switching to Sableye 90% of the time. The other 10% time I keep gengar is because I feel like more power is needed on my team and I maybe too fairy weak.
Gengar set I have been running is dual stab/icy wind/wisp. Then recognize I dont have taunt and think Quash is speed control that works against TR teams and go back to sableye. gengar is like 2.5 imo
Quash is not a trick room check. Using something like Sableye as a Trick Room check is awful, I mean TR usually carries 4-6 hyper offensive mons with at least 4 capable of very very heavily damaging Sableye and probably 2-3 things that can hit each mon on your team super hard, meaning you'll rarely ever see the day when Quash against Trick Room is actually useful. It just as rarely if not more rarely sees use against something like standard tw or THALK or rain or sun... whatever it is you want to use it for, you probably will never really get to use it for that purpose. Quash is really a lame excuse to use something with a very obscure niche like Sableye over something more common that has much broader applications like Gengar.
I don't mean to call you out or anything. This is unclear to a number of people that really like sableye.
 
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