NFE Pokemon in UU

[QibingZero]

I saw we either:

'Allow' every NFE Pokemon, then ban a few odd ones that would break the metagame, such as Porygon 2, Chansey, Rhydon etc.

Or we ban all of them. All this second option means is that things like Trapinch and Vigaroth would see no use. Things like Pikachu, Scyther, Rhydon, Porygon 2 etc are actually all viable in OU/BL and would thus still be used.

EDIT: The only final option would be to allow everything (except for the obvious bans stated above) that was fully evolved in a previous generation. This includes stuff like Gligar, Electabuzz, Magmar, Tangela et al being playable in UU. This could get very nitty-gritty though, as some people would want to ban OU-lites (see:Gligar), but allow Pokemon with big differences, such as Electabuzz or Scyther. Where would the line be drawn?

See, I would disagree with all three of those.

Why should we move away from the generally recognized rule of: NFEs are all banned unless they serve a different purpose than their evolved forms? That is the question that needs to be answered by anyone arguing for other methods of sorting.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I mean, Riolu? Duskull!??! Eevee!?!!!?

LOL eevee, definitely a metagame breaker there . . . xD

 

[X-Act]

I'd allow all Pokemon to be legal. It's the simplest solution. Things like Chimchar will probably be NU, while things like Electabuzz will probably be UU. Things like Scyther might even be BL. Why not just allow everything and then see in which tier each end up?

 

[Deco]

I'd allow all Pokemon to be legal. It's the simplest solution. Things like Chimchar will probably be NU, while things like Electabuzz will probably be UU. Things like Scyther might even be BL. Why not just allow everything and then see in which tier each end up?

Like I said, I'd love this to happen. If anyone would be willing to sort them all out, that is.

 

[Darkflagrance]

The problem with this dispute is that no one is sure how much allowing NFE's would change the UU metagame. Until that happens, we're just arguing based on our desires about the metagame and speculations about overpowered pokemon, without any real evidence as to how much the game would change.

 

[QibingZero]

I'd allow all Pokemon to be legal. It's the simplest solution. Things like Chimchar will probably be NU, while things like Electabuzz will probably be UU. Things like Scyther might even be BL. Why not just allow everything and then see in which tier each end up?

Setting it up that way allows for a huge amount of trouble when you reach NU, because while only a few NFE Pokemon will be staples in UU, they will completely flood NU.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Seriously! Now that flail magikarp has focus sash, it will destroy NU! xD

Pineco to spin out spikes, and lotad to set up raindance, and Magikarp will kill! It'll be OU lite-lite! :P

 

[Bourbon]

Seriously! Now that flail magikarp has focus sash, it will destroy NU! xD

Pineco to spin out spikes, and lotad to set up raindance, and Magikarp will kill! It'll be OU lite-lite! :P

ROFLMAO

 

[Steven718]

Do you really want to see Chansey in UU? It'll take out all the fun and make it like OU.....

Wow, that is the whole point, did you read the rest of the discussion?

Do we want UU to be like OU: Not really.

Can many NFE's be used in UU without unabalancing the metagame: Yes.

So that's the choice, one or the other. If you're going to allow "OU-Lite NFE's, you can't just ban the ones you feel like banning because you 'don't like' their evolved forms if the NFE can be OHKO'd by several pokemon used in UU.

The whole point of tiers is balance, what I "want" is irrelevant, and a UU poke being playable in OU is irrelevant, what matters is whether or not it unabalnces UU.

 

[Bourbon]

Wow, that is the whole point, did you read the rest of the discussion?

Do we want UU to be like OU: Not really.

Can many NFE's be used in UU without unabalancing the metagame: Yes.

So that's the choice, one or the other. If you're going to allow "OU-Lite NFE's, you can't just ban the ones you feel like banning because you 'don't like' their evolved forms if the NFE can be OHKO'd by several pokemon used in UU.

The whole point of tiers is balance, what I "want" is irrelevant, and a UU poke being playable in OU is irrelevant, what matters is whether or not it unabalnces UU.

QFT! I want UU to feel like a different game. No OUlite. Unless the prevo brings something new to the table, it shouldn't be used.

For example, Tangela and Electabuzz are OK, but Haunter and Kadabra are not, becuase the latter share the same stats/movepool as their evos.

I did think of one exception. Since Murkrow, Misdreavus, and Gligar recieved evos, I still think they should be allowed in UU, because you don't HAVE to use their new forms, and they've been a staple of UU for ages.

 

[milotic111]

QFT! I want UU to feel like a different game. No OUlite. Unless the prevo brings something new to the table, it shouldn't be used.

For example, Tangela and Electabuzz are OK, but Haunter and Kadabra are not, becuase the latter share the same stats/movepool as their evos.

I did think of one exception. Since Murkrow, Misdreavus, and Gligar recieved evos, I still think they should be allowed in UU, because you don't HAVE to use their new forms, and they've been a staple of UU for ages.

But with gligar gaining roost in this gen, it would unbalance the UU metagame...

 

[Bourbon]

But with gligar gaining roost in this gen, it would unbalance the UU metagame...

Offensively, Gligar hasn't improved, while everyone else has. It still won't last long. True, it's better than before, but even a wall Gligar can't take a SD crabhammer, or CB waterfall from Azumarril. ANd thats on it'd higher defense stat.

As you can see by my previous calcs, unless you completely maximize it's def, Crabhammer is a sure way to kill it. If you max, it still gets killed by anything using Surf or Ice Beam.

 

[milotic111]

Offensively, Gligar hasn't improved, while everyone else has. It still won't last long. True, it's better than before, but even a wall Gligar can't take a SD crabhammer, or CB waterfall from Azumarril. ANd thats on it'd higher defense stat.

As you can see by my previous calcs, unless you completely maximize it's def, Crabhammer is a sure way to kill it. If you max, it still gets killed by anything using Surf or Ice Beam.

Maybe you're right. I use UU pokemon, but I don't play in the UU metagame.

 

[Sir Spanky]

I'd allow all Pokemon to be legal. It's the simplest solution. Things like Chimchar will probably be NU, while things like Electabuzz will probably be UU. Things like Scyther might even be BL. Why not just allow everything and then see in which tier each end up?

I would really really hate weather in UU though

 

[Thunderpup]

I would really really hate weather in UU though

Just like ANY OTHER POKE, if it unbalances the metagame, even if it's in the combination or another pokemon (such as infinite snowstorm from snover in combination with wallrein) it would be banned.

So don't worry about that.

I don't understand what you're saying skiddle.

For example, Tangela and Electabuzz are OK, but Haunter and Kadabra are not, becuase the latter share the same stats/movepool as their evos.

Not only are haunter and kadabra already banned from UU due to their power, but everything this thread suggests says that pokemon with similar movepools and stats and abilities (there aren't alot) are either too weak or won't be allowed.

 

[Pneuma]

Do we not have the means to play theorymon online together? Shoddy allows us to do a hell of a lot more than just talk ad nauseum.

There's no reason we can't outright ban any pokemon the community hates. It is important though to find out if we like UU enough to try and "balance" it by moving pokemon up to BL that will never do in OU.

Are we an uber tier society? Well, no, we've proven that time and time again. Wobbuffet says hi.
Are we an OU tier society? Most of us would agree. There are those that are jaded and only play UU, however.
Are we an UU tier society? Or is it just a small percentage of us who will argue to the death for it?


Should we even bother with tiers that are not OU? If we balance OU as best we can, then just let the elsewise pokemon fall where they land. If they're too strong, call it uber. If they're too weak, call them UU. There will be no BL either.


These kind of questions need to be answered before specific pokemon. Take it a vote? Or, in true smogon style, leave it up to the decision of the veteran battlers?

 

[the Lexx]

Why don't we just allow them all and ban them on a case by case basis? It's stupid to just ban them because they have OU counterparts.

Really the only ones that are game-breaking are Haunter, Kadabra, Sneasel, Wynaut and possibly Chansey and Gligar: the former of which has no offensive power outside of Seismic Toss and the latter of which really got hurt by the addition of physical water and ice. Haunter, Kadabra, and Sneasel simply have too good stats/typing to be allowed in UU play. Wynaut is a pretty obvious one.

Snover and Hippopotas are extreme liabilities to teams; not only are they weak and basically create a "five man team" but they're set up fodder as well, which is something to watch out for.

I'd support banning Walrein to BL by the way if Snover is allowed. He's up for debate regardless, but that's not really the point of this thread. Just mainly suggesting that he shouldn't be the deciding factor for weather UUs.

 

[Goodbar]

Should we even bother with tiers that are not OU? If we balance OU as best we can, then just let the elsewise pokemon fall where they land. If they're too strong, call it uber. If they're too weak, call them UU. There will be no BL either.

Imagine no hell below us, above us only sky....for some reason that song popped into my head when you said that :P Its important to distinguish BL from OU so people know what the main threats are. Separate UU form NU for those "jaded players". And ubers, yea. It all works out

NFEs should definately be in the tiers they belong in, aka Chansey in BL. But I don't think we should downright go as far as to classify stuff like chimchar in NU, its pointless and too much work and even more confusion. If people want to use that crap, fine, don't disallow it. But don't go so far as to give it a tier. My opinion, NFE's should be allowed in BL and UU, but not NU

Snover and Hippo are exceptions, i don't think they should be allowed in UU, they should be banned, I dunno they just screw up the balance. Wynauts basically banned too, so add these two to the list

 

[Steven718]

To people saying Chansey should be BL - Please give reasons why, you have not been, and I see no logical reasoning for this.

I already listed several reasons she is not overpowered for UU. When providing your logic, please remember that a pokemons ability to perform in OU has no relevance to whether or not it unbalances UU.

 

[Colonel M]

NFEs should make an appearance, but I think there should be some extents. Like mentioned before, Kadabra and Haunter wouldn't be the best idea, as they hit hard to begin with and still are pretty fast.

Something like Shelgon and Gabite could be alright, but maybe we might have to look at how they seriously shift the UU metagame. I know Gabite didn't have that great of a movepool (no Fire Fang, no Brick Break, no Swords Dance, etc). Sure he gets Earthquake and Fire Blast, but it's still able to throw a Choice Band and still whip some things around.

Some like Dragonair and Pupitar should be mentioned as they are different from their older counterparts, as far as traits / types go. This isn't trying to say "lol, let's use Skorupi because it has a different typing", but moreso how it still holds some unique counterparts.

I think weather should be allowed. It's ruining Reversal / Flail sets, yes, but as far as I know, it shouldn't shift much. Actually I'd prefer Sandstorm, as Aggron gets a little Special Defense boost, making him a little bit more efficient of a wall on both spectrums (granted Rock / Steel is shitty typing). Walrein is probably going to be thrown in BL anyways if it happens, so it's not the end of the world, as far as I know.

Some were staples as far as UU goes in Advanced, and even though Pokemon like Gligar and Electabuzz got evolutions, they did see much use there.

Now there is one thing I would like to point out, and that would be if we allow stuff like Pokemon X in BL. If we're doing something like that, then BL should be a seperate tier overall. I'd rather use Blissey in OU than Chansey anyday.

 

[QibingZero]

Why don't we just allow them all and ban them on a case by case basis? It's stupid to just ban them because they have OU counterparts.

Really the only ones that are game-breaking are Haunter, Kadabra, Sneasel, Wynaut and possibly Chansey and Gligar: the former of which has no offensive power outside of Seismic Toss and the latter of which really got hurt by the addition of physical water and ice. Haunter, Kadabra, and Sneasel simply have too good stats/typing to be allowed in UU play. Wynaut is a pretty obvious one.

Snover and Hippopotas are extreme liabilities to teams; not only are they weak and basically create a "five man team" but they're set up fodder as well, which is something to watch out for.

I'd support banning Walrein to BL by the way if Snover is allowed. He's up for debate regardless, but that's not really the point of this thread. Just mainly suggesting that he shouldn't be the deciding factor for weather UUs.

I'd like to hear good reasoning as to how exactly Haunter, Sneasel, Kadabra, Chansey, Wynaut, and Gligar would break the UU metagame. I'm 100% for banning all these from UU play to keep UU a lot more fun, but I seriously don't see how any of them are too strong.

 

[Goodbar]

To people saying Chansey should be BL - Please give reasons why, you have not been, and I see no logical reasoning for this.

I already listed several reasons she is not overpowered for UU. When providing your logic, please remember that a pokemons ability to perform in OU has no relevance to whether or not it unbalances UU.

Chansey is the second best special wall in the game, not that different from Blissey besides a little less stats in everything, but still walls better than Regice and has the same move options as Blissey. And everything in UU is weaker than OU, so it walls even better than Blissey in UU I'd imagine. The only reason you would use it though is in a strictly BL-only match though, at least it has more purpose than Wynaut :(

 

[Steven718]

Chansey is the second best special wall in the game, not that different from Blissey besides a little less stats in everything, but still walls better than Regice and has the same move options as Blissey. And everything in UU is weaker than OU, so it walls even better than Blissey in UU I'd imagine. The only reason you would use it though is in a strictly BL-only match though, at least it has more purpose than Wynaut :(

But - it has 1/2 the special attack Blissey has, and gets OHKO'd by some UU physical attackers and 2HKO'd by many(max/max Bold Chansey). How is that unbalancing. Things like Sandslash don't give a crap about 35 bp Ice Beam and can easily set up on it.

 

[Biolizard28]

I'd allow all Pokemon to be legal. It's the simplest solution. Things like Chimchar will probably be NU, while things like Electabuzz will probably be UU. Things like Scyther might even be BL. Why not just allow everything and then see in which tier each end up?

I like this solution. All it really requires is some common sense.

 

[Fishin]

To people saying Chansey should be BL - Please give reasons why, you have not been, and I see no logical reasoning for this.

I was probably too hasty in saying that she's BL for sure. I would say she definitely has a strong case for being BL (even with almost no offensive power, she still has a huge number of support options and Seismic Toss), but that's a question for the BL/UU discussion.


Anyways...of all the ideas for sweeping generalizations being made (if we're going to ban some pokemon but not others), I think that Dragontamer's is probably the best.

* If the NFE has a stat that is higher than its fully evolved form or a different ability, then it should be written in the tier list.

That includes almost all of the pokemon that serve a significantly different purpose. After that...special consideration could be taken if the pokemon doesn't meet either of those conditions but still plays somewhat differently.