The funny thing is specs Hoopa commonly runs tbolt now and focus blast 2hkos while dpulse does over 25%, so mandibuzz isn't even a good Hoopa counter anymore with the advent of the specs set.
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - Purple Haze - Hoopa-U is now banned
- Thread starter kumiko
- Start date
- Status
FUCK YES! Sorry I'm just really happy this is finally happening.
I actually thought Hoopa-U was going to be Uber when I first saw it, then maybe it'd get suspected down to OU from Ubers, but idk maybe that just sounds stupid...
Anyway, Hoopa-U is ridiculous no matter what item it's holding (except Assault Vest, that's bad) but Specs is arguably the most effective. Anything it can't OHKO it can easily 2HKO. I don't think there's a single other Pokemon in OU that can say the same. Even Lando-I had counters in things like Cresselia, but the only thing that comes close to a Hoopa-U counter isAV Drapion Mandibuzz, which is easy to pressure with rocks up, can't switch in on Tbolt and is crippled by Trick. So most stall and balance teams opt for running a pursuit trapper (usually Tyranitar but sometimes Weavile!) instead, which doesn't even work in some cases. If someone plays their Hoopa-U right against a Stall/Balance team, they can probably nab at least 2 kills, since it can survive a non-banded Pursuit. If they're running Trick they also have the option to cripple something for the rest of the game. If Hoopa-U Tricks your Tyranitar then there goes your way of beating it. Magic Room is also a cool filler move that lets Hoopa beat both Chansey and Scarf Tar.
Obviously Hoopa-U doesn't perform so well against faster more offensive teams (which can be somewhat alleviated with VoltTurn shenanigans), but it's so good against fatter teams that it doesn't matter. It makes ORAS even more matchup based, and that's the main reason I'm voting BAN.
Well I'm really looking forward to this suspect test ^^ If you legitimately think that Hoopa-U isn't broken, then fair enough. But please don't vote no ban just because you hate stall. Some of us don't know how to play anything else D:
I actually thought Hoopa-U was going to be Uber when I first saw it, then maybe it'd get suspected down to OU from Ubers, but idk maybe that just sounds stupid...
Anyway, Hoopa-U is ridiculous no matter what item it's holding (except Assault Vest, that's bad) but Specs is arguably the most effective. Anything it can't OHKO it can easily 2HKO. I don't think there's a single other Pokemon in OU that can say the same. Even Lando-I had counters in things like Cresselia, but the only thing that comes close to a Hoopa-U counter is
Obviously Hoopa-U doesn't perform so well against faster more offensive teams (which can be somewhat alleviated with VoltTurn shenanigans), but it's so good against fatter teams that it doesn't matter. It makes ORAS even more matchup based, and that's the main reason I'm voting BAN.
Well I'm really looking forward to this suspect test ^^ If you legitimately think that Hoopa-U isn't broken, then fair enough. But please don't vote no ban just because you hate stall. Some of us don't know how to play anything else D:
Upon close analysis of Hoopa's practical usage (in light of personal experience), I'm really leaning towards a DNB stance at the moment; this is before any suspect laddering.
What I mean by this is that Hoopa's abilities aren't exactly anything new to us. We've obviously had many Pokemon with a lack of counters or checks that we still consider them not broken. I'm going to list off Hoopa's key problems and argue that a DNB position makes more sense.
Hoopa's first and foremost problem which I feel hasn't been touched upon enough in this thread is Hoopa's comparatively low Speed stat as opposed to other wallbreakers. This in-of-itself does not make Hoopa more manageable since it's job is primarily to come in and wallbreak, but when one notes that Hoopa is outsped by a very large portion of the metagame it becomes in practice much harder to actually do things that everyone likes to talk about like switching in to Latios's Draco or Gengar's Shadow Ball without AV and then grabbing a KO. This means that in practice, Hoopa is never switching in. This is problematic because Hoopa is then forced to rely on coming in when a Pokemon is downed or upon usage of Volt Switch or U-turn. This is very tough for perhaps stall players, but even ordinary Balance players typically can provide either ways to kill momentum or methods to pressure Hoopa into getting a maximum of 1 kill or cripple a game. This is because of Hoopa's secondary problem which is its lack of resistances coupled with poor Physical Defense. This might seem to be offset by Hoopa's decent HP and high SpD, but the lack of investment in either + Hoopa's weakness to every single form of entry hazards make wearing it down extremely easy, on consequently prevent Hoopa's SpD from actually being a hindrance to opposing players. I'll calc one of the most common examples to illustrate my point.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 220-261 (73 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Come in on SR once and Latios's DM will put it in a range where it is then cannot switch out or is downed by SR coming back in. With a little bit more prior damage Hoopa cannot even tank this attack at all, leaving it to have a maximum impact of a 1-1 trade.
This calc is obviously not always going to be the case, and is easier to present to people who play HO and BO and a faster Balance than people who's Balance and Stall are more slower in nature. Nevertheless, this only indicates Hoopa's actual efficiency against slower, more passive playstyles where it is able to achieve more than 1 KO per game, which is to be expected since its abilities as a wallbreaker are probably the best in OU at the moment.
Against playstyles which have naturally faster Pokemon Hoopa struggles significantly more than against slower teams. Being pressured to even get a kill against HO and having a very rough time against well played BO is problematic for a broken Pokemon since other Pokemon such as Landorus-I (only comparison used here is as a stellar wallbreaker) are much faster and not deadweight against more common builds. Any balance which has faster Pokemon also can adequately handle Hoopa even though it being less offensive in nature gives Hoopa an easier time with it.
The main reason for this is because of Hoopa's poor defensive synergy and its subpar Speed, the large multitude of Pokemon that can check it mean that it will often lead to itself or another Pokemon being sacked since it can turn from the Pokemon that breaks your opponents team to the least valuable Pokemon defensively in a matter of seconds. While this is the nature of being revengekilled, the fact that virtually any offensive Pokemon can revengekill Hoopa means that teambuilding becomes much harder than using a normal wallbreaker such as Mega Gardevoir or Kyurem-B who actually have some level of synergy which lowers the number of Pokemon that are able to revengekill them.
I won't touch on Pursuit since I think it's a universally known fact that Balance and Stall teams also have this way to rid themselves of Hoopa after some prior damage or stat drops.
My key argument for Hoopa staying is that its metagame influence, while large, does little to overcentralize the already offensive metagame and just creates a bigger need for faster Pokemon on Balance teams and just solidifies the need for a Pursuit trapper on Stall. I don't understand the idea that people say that this Pokemon can be problematic for HO or BO teams; on HO there's maximum 1 Pokemon which it can come in on and get a kill/cripple something before Hoopa becomes useless, and on BO we can extend that to perhaps 2 Pokemon which Hoopa can take advantage of. Furthermore, the idea that tossing pivots on a team with Hoopa will somehow let Hoopa come in more often is a ridiculous idea; against stronger HO teams and quicker BO teams these pivots have a much harder time in practice than they do in theory. Hoopa's survivability being lowered due to hazards also makes its job much less easier.
Perhaps I did not articulate my thoughts on this matter as well as I could, but I feel as though my experience using and facing Hoopa justifies my argument. For these reasons, I believe the correct position to take on Hoopa is DNB.
What I mean by this is that Hoopa's abilities aren't exactly anything new to us. We've obviously had many Pokemon with a lack of counters or checks that we still consider them not broken. I'm going to list off Hoopa's key problems and argue that a DNB position makes more sense.
Hoopa's first and foremost problem which I feel hasn't been touched upon enough in this thread is Hoopa's comparatively low Speed stat as opposed to other wallbreakers. This in-of-itself does not make Hoopa more manageable since it's job is primarily to come in and wallbreak, but when one notes that Hoopa is outsped by a very large portion of the metagame it becomes in practice much harder to actually do things that everyone likes to talk about like switching in to Latios's Draco or Gengar's Shadow Ball without AV and then grabbing a KO. This means that in practice, Hoopa is never switching in. This is problematic because Hoopa is then forced to rely on coming in when a Pokemon is downed or upon usage of Volt Switch or U-turn. This is very tough for perhaps stall players, but even ordinary Balance players typically can provide either ways to kill momentum or methods to pressure Hoopa into getting a maximum of 1 kill or cripple a game. This is because of Hoopa's secondary problem which is its lack of resistances coupled with poor Physical Defense. This might seem to be offset by Hoopa's decent HP and high SpD, but the lack of investment in either + Hoopa's weakness to every single form of entry hazards make wearing it down extremely easy, on consequently prevent Hoopa's SpD from actually being a hindrance to opposing players. I'll calc one of the most common examples to illustrate my point.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 220-261 (73 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Come in on SR once and Latios's DM will put it in a range where it is then cannot switch out or is downed by SR coming back in. With a little bit more prior damage Hoopa cannot even tank this attack at all, leaving it to have a maximum impact of a 1-1 trade.
This calc is obviously not always going to be the case, and is easier to present to people who play HO and BO and a faster Balance than people who's Balance and Stall are more slower in nature. Nevertheless, this only indicates Hoopa's actual efficiency against slower, more passive playstyles where it is able to achieve more than 1 KO per game, which is to be expected since its abilities as a wallbreaker are probably the best in OU at the moment.
Against playstyles which have naturally faster Pokemon Hoopa struggles significantly more than against slower teams. Being pressured to even get a kill against HO and having a very rough time against well played BO is problematic for a broken Pokemon since other Pokemon such as Landorus-I (only comparison used here is as a stellar wallbreaker) are much faster and not deadweight against more common builds. Any balance which has faster Pokemon also can adequately handle Hoopa even though it being less offensive in nature gives Hoopa an easier time with it.
The main reason for this is because of Hoopa's poor defensive synergy and its subpar Speed, the large multitude of Pokemon that can check it mean that it will often lead to itself or another Pokemon being sacked since it can turn from the Pokemon that breaks your opponents team to the least valuable Pokemon defensively in a matter of seconds. While this is the nature of being revengekilled, the fact that virtually any offensive Pokemon can revengekill Hoopa means that teambuilding becomes much harder than using a normal wallbreaker such as Mega Gardevoir or Kyurem-B who actually have some level of synergy which lowers the number of Pokemon that are able to revengekill them.
I won't touch on Pursuit since I think it's a universally known fact that Balance and Stall teams also have this way to rid themselves of Hoopa after some prior damage or stat drops.
My key argument for Hoopa staying is that its metagame influence, while large, does little to overcentralize the already offensive metagame and just creates a bigger need for faster Pokemon on Balance teams and just solidifies the need for a Pursuit trapper on Stall. I don't understand the idea that people say that this Pokemon can be problematic for HO or BO teams; on HO there's maximum 1 Pokemon which it can come in on and get a kill/cripple something before Hoopa becomes useless, and on BO we can extend that to perhaps 2 Pokemon which Hoopa can take advantage of. Furthermore, the idea that tossing pivots on a team with Hoopa will somehow let Hoopa come in more often is a ridiculous idea; against stronger HO teams and quicker BO teams these pivots have a much harder time in practice than they do in theory. Hoopa's survivability being lowered due to hazards also makes its job much less easier.
Perhaps I did not articulate my thoughts on this matter as well as I could, but I feel as though my experience using and facing Hoopa justifies my argument. For these reasons, I believe the correct position to take on Hoopa is DNB.
While I appreciate the pro-ban sentiment, you have to keep in mind that hoopa actually can put in a ton of work vs offense. Hoopa can lure in fast physical attackers like lop and meta, who get punished by like tankchomp and that's really nice. Also, offense runs some defensive backbones like landot+rotomw, both of whom get blown the fuck back by specs dpulse and proceed to give hoopa a free kill. Also, a lot of offensive teams run fast special attackers like mmane and latios to deal with common threats, and those mons are lures in by rotomw, one of many slow volturners, who proceeds to volt switch hoopa into the game, and since they cant ohko hoopa, they are forced to flee the battlefield. Point is that Hoopa is really good vs offense with any competently built team and can basically make most fat teams click x without a pursuit trapper, which is absolutely bonkers.
I really hope this is an april fool's joke holy shit
OK so, THE ONLY possible argument for banning hoopa is that it creates unwinnable matchups with stall. Anything else is a bad reason:
- it's clearly not overcentralizing
- it doesn't sweep teams with ease
- it doesn't set up other mons for a sweep with ease
- no 100% safe counters != broken mon
I'm seeing a lot of "it has no counters and is therefore broken" posts, and I want to call them the fuck out.
Hoopa-U is difficult to switch in to because it can run specs, band or life orb and a variety of different moves to beat basically everything. Having the potential to 2hko your opponent's whole team sounds broken, but think about what actually happens in battles.
In order for 2hkos to be relevant you need 2 things.
1. They need to be switching in
2. The thing they're switching in must be slower than hoopa or not able to do much damage to it
Otherwise you have a mon that weakens things well. That's not exactly a new concept, and it's certainly not broken.
Hoopa's physical frailty combined with its average speed means it's forced out by a big portion of the metagame. Now of course everyone responds to this with "simply switch out bro". That's easier said than done. What if a megacham comes in to revenge your specs hoopa? Switching out isn't risk free, especially when you're 4x weak to uturn and are forced to give up momentum completely no matter what. On top of this, it's killed extremely easily once it takes damage from hazards.
Pokemon with few counters aren't unheard of either. LO Tornadus-T is almost impossible to switch in to, and the things than can are worn down easily. Keldeo is infamous for being difficult to switch in to, and it has the advantage of most counters being easily pursuit trapped. Clefable often needs to be scouted for fire blast/twave before you can beat it safely. Mega garde, mega hera, banded terrakion and azumarill are all examples of pokemon that are extremely difficult to switch in to.
Hoopa has definite counterplay:
- pursuit
- any fast physical mon
- motherfucking mandibuzz nobody's running tbolt on hoopa you retards
- anything that resist whatever move it chooses and can hit back (if choiced)
and yes you can fit at least one of these on stall!
Now there's too much theorymon bullshit in these threads so I'm going to pull up some SPL replays:
Every time hoopa dismantles a team it needs good predictions. People should be rewarded for outplaying their opponent. Hoopa is also useless in some of these replays. There's no doubt hoopa performs its job well whether it be a revenge killer or a nuke, but why is that a problem?
I expect the suspect meta to be almost identical to the regular meta, maybe with a bit more stall just on principal. Which is retarded, because stall is a matchup based playstyle and hoopa being gone isn't going to fix that.
Too right my man, mons like lopunny coming in on hoopa isn't a bad thing it's a good thing! It's merely a lure, all part of the plan lol hoopa is so broken holy shit
OK so, THE ONLY possible argument for banning hoopa is that it creates unwinnable matchups with stall. Anything else is a bad reason:
- it's clearly not overcentralizing
- it doesn't sweep teams with ease
- it doesn't set up other mons for a sweep with ease
- no 100% safe counters != broken mon
I'm seeing a lot of "it has no counters and is therefore broken" posts, and I want to call them the fuck out.
Hoopa-U is difficult to switch in to because it can run specs, band or life orb and a variety of different moves to beat basically everything. Having the potential to 2hko your opponent's whole team sounds broken, but think about what actually happens in battles.
In order for 2hkos to be relevant you need 2 things.
1. They need to be switching in
2. The thing they're switching in must be slower than hoopa or not able to do much damage to it
Otherwise you have a mon that weakens things well. That's not exactly a new concept, and it's certainly not broken.
Hoopa's physical frailty combined with its average speed means it's forced out by a big portion of the metagame. Now of course everyone responds to this with "simply switch out bro". That's easier said than done. What if a megacham comes in to revenge your specs hoopa? Switching out isn't risk free, especially when you're 4x weak to uturn and are forced to give up momentum completely no matter what. On top of this, it's killed extremely easily once it takes damage from hazards.
Pokemon with few counters aren't unheard of either. LO Tornadus-T is almost impossible to switch in to, and the things than can are worn down easily. Keldeo is infamous for being difficult to switch in to, and it has the advantage of most counters being easily pursuit trapped. Clefable often needs to be scouted for fire blast/twave before you can beat it safely. Mega garde, mega hera, banded terrakion and azumarill are all examples of pokemon that are extremely difficult to switch in to.
Hoopa has definite counterplay:
- pursuit
- any fast physical mon
- motherfucking mandibuzz nobody's running tbolt on hoopa you retards
- anything that resist whatever move it chooses and can hit back (if choiced)
and yes you can fit at least one of these on stall!
Now there's too much theorymon bullshit in these threads so I'm going to pull up some SPL replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-112830
It's a scarf hoopa. it can't come in on anything, so it has to get the u-turn in from lando-t or come in to revenge. It can't 1v1 lando, sableye, or healthy kyube. Against amoonguss and keldeo it needs to zhb or risk getting put to sleep/ko'd. Against rachi it needs to hsf or it risks getting para'd/ohko'd by u-turn. Simply clicking hsf is only an option coming in on ONE mon, and it's not even close to a free kill since keldeo takes it and kills back, phys def sableye or amoongus can both take a hit and force it out, and lando-t can do the same but only once. That doesn't sound like an auto win to me.
On top of this, laurel can simply go to msab on the lando-t's u-turn, so hoopa can't even come in outside of revenging things.
Hoopa ends up doing nothing this game, it's not even switched in once.
I don't want to go in depth into every tournament replay with hoopa so I'll summarise them.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-112389
- switches into a 4% latios draco, takes 83% and is instantly forced out by jirachi. Which then u-turns for momentum into diancie. Tesung has no switch ins so he sacs his most useless mon - hoopa-u.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-114886
- lead hoopa clicks psychic on the ttar switch and takes 58% from pursuit switching out. Later excadrill comes in under sand and geemick has to sac his most useless pokemon - hoopa-u.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-114519
- both teams have hoopa this time. xray's gets a free switch in from volt switch on ABR's clefable. ABR sends in landorus-t, tanks the hsf and forces it out. ABR later sends out his hoopa to revenge metagross, and xray sacs his hoopa. ABR ends up winning by repeatedly using hoopa to revenge xray's last 3 mons. It gets good mileage here, because turns out choice scarf mons are good at revenge killing!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-114978
- banded hoopa comes in on skarmory. Skarm simply roosts the hsf so hoopa's forced to switch. later cosine makes a double to get hoopa in on amoonguss. Keldeo just comes in and takes hsf, and hoopa's forced out.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138668
- hoopa comes in to revenge metagross, escavalier sacs lando-t. It then takes 96% from weavile's pursuit. It gets sacced later.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138861
- hoopa comes in to revenge lando-t and ends up leaving kyube on 5%, then it's forced out. Later it coes in to revenge lando-t again and this time gets the kill. It weakens garchomp and kills a 50% rotom-w before it's forced out by scizor. It then gets sacced.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138877
- hoopa gets in thanks to rotom-w's volt switch. destiny device goes to diancie, hsf does 27% and hoopa's forced out. It comes in later to revenge weavile. At this point it sweeps because destiny device's last 3 mons are weakened.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138708
- hoopa comes in to bluff scarf against medicham and instantly gets bopped by hjk.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138988
- hoopa comes in on starmie and correctly predicts terrakion with focus blast. It's then forced out by mega venusaur. It gets in later(thanks rotom-w) and kills mega venusaur.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138988
- a good example of specs hoopa putting in work. Notice how almost every kill hoopa gets is a prediction, the only safe one being psyshocking mega venusaur. This game comes down to 2 twave clefables trying to hax each other anyway.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-137044
- LO hoopa hsf's into a lando, psychics into latios, and later dies by taking 68% from latios' draco meteor (STOP SAYING IT TAKES LATIOS DRACO WELL, even max hp has ~50% chance of getting 2hkod by draco)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-137088
- scarf hoopa hsf's a raikou, fails to kill and gets vs'ed on. This lets entei come in and trade with entei. Hoopa comes in again later to revenge raikou, clicks psychic to do 53% to hippo, and is then forced to switch so it won't let in latios for free. Hoopa gets bopped by a draco later.
It's a scarf hoopa. it can't come in on anything, so it has to get the u-turn in from lando-t or come in to revenge. It can't 1v1 lando, sableye, or healthy kyube. Against amoonguss and keldeo it needs to zhb or risk getting put to sleep/ko'd. Against rachi it needs to hsf or it risks getting para'd/ohko'd by u-turn. Simply clicking hsf is only an option coming in on ONE mon, and it's not even close to a free kill since keldeo takes it and kills back, phys def sableye or amoongus can both take a hit and force it out, and lando-t can do the same but only once. That doesn't sound like an auto win to me.
On top of this, laurel can simply go to msab on the lando-t's u-turn, so hoopa can't even come in outside of revenging things.
Hoopa ends up doing nothing this game, it's not even switched in once.
I don't want to go in depth into every tournament replay with hoopa so I'll summarise them.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-112389
- switches into a 4% latios draco, takes 83% and is instantly forced out by jirachi. Which then u-turns for momentum into diancie. Tesung has no switch ins so he sacs his most useless mon - hoopa-u.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-114886
- lead hoopa clicks psychic on the ttar switch and takes 58% from pursuit switching out. Later excadrill comes in under sand and geemick has to sac his most useless pokemon - hoopa-u.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-114519
- both teams have hoopa this time. xray's gets a free switch in from volt switch on ABR's clefable. ABR sends in landorus-t, tanks the hsf and forces it out. ABR later sends out his hoopa to revenge metagross, and xray sacs his hoopa. ABR ends up winning by repeatedly using hoopa to revenge xray's last 3 mons. It gets good mileage here, because turns out choice scarf mons are good at revenge killing!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-114978
- banded hoopa comes in on skarmory. Skarm simply roosts the hsf so hoopa's forced to switch. later cosine makes a double to get hoopa in on amoonguss. Keldeo just comes in and takes hsf, and hoopa's forced out.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138668
- hoopa comes in to revenge metagross, escavalier sacs lando-t. It then takes 96% from weavile's pursuit. It gets sacced later.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138861
- hoopa comes in to revenge lando-t and ends up leaving kyube on 5%, then it's forced out. Later it coes in to revenge lando-t again and this time gets the kill. It weakens garchomp and kills a 50% rotom-w before it's forced out by scizor. It then gets sacced.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138877
- hoopa gets in thanks to rotom-w's volt switch. destiny device goes to diancie, hsf does 27% and hoopa's forced out. It comes in later to revenge weavile. At this point it sweeps because destiny device's last 3 mons are weakened.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138708
- hoopa comes in to bluff scarf against medicham and instantly gets bopped by hjk.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138988
- hoopa comes in on starmie and correctly predicts terrakion with focus blast. It's then forced out by mega venusaur. It gets in later(thanks rotom-w) and kills mega venusaur.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138988
- a good example of specs hoopa putting in work. Notice how almost every kill hoopa gets is a prediction, the only safe one being psyshocking mega venusaur. This game comes down to 2 twave clefables trying to hax each other anyway.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-137044
- LO hoopa hsf's into a lando, psychics into latios, and later dies by taking 68% from latios' draco meteor (STOP SAYING IT TAKES LATIOS DRACO WELL, even max hp has ~50% chance of getting 2hkod by draco)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-137088
- scarf hoopa hsf's a raikou, fails to kill and gets vs'ed on. This lets entei come in and trade with entei. Hoopa comes in again later to revenge raikou, clicks psychic to do 53% to hippo, and is then forced to switch so it won't let in latios for free. Hoopa gets bopped by a draco later.
Every time hoopa dismantles a team it needs good predictions. People should be rewarded for outplaying their opponent. Hoopa is also useless in some of these replays. There's no doubt hoopa performs its job well whether it be a revenge killer or a nuke, but why is that a problem?
I expect the suspect meta to be almost identical to the regular meta, maybe with a bit more stall just on principal. Which is retarded, because stall is a matchup based playstyle and hoopa being gone isn't going to fix that.
Too right my man, mons like lopunny coming in on hoopa isn't a bad thing it's a good thing! It's merely a lure, all part of the plan lol hoopa is so broken holy shit
There's a lot of strong pro-ban arguments in this thread and I think the overall mood is towards overwhelmingly banning Hoopa-U so I'm going to be playing devil's advocate here. I agree with Pandamaster4000 in that I think this suspect test is perfunctory in light of the hype around Hoopa-U's Specs set. We're all aware of Hoopa-U's offensive prowess coming off its high mixed attacking stats, more than adequate movepool and ability to live special hits which allow it to function as the tier's best wallbreaker, but it feels like people are downplaying Hoopa's flaws to serve a bias/preconception, especially when I see people making posts referring to how they don't like how offensive the meta is and how Hoopa excacerbates this (which I don't think is true anyway) and more discursive discussion needs to be had on whether it merits a ban, especially under the established OU tiering policy, rather than zooming in on the fact Hoopa-U is fucking strong and posting with ban in mind a priori.
p2, Outrageous Fortune and Always! have made some good observations in their posts. Viable counterplay and checks to this thing do exist, like Pursuit users (the prospect of a Pursuit trapper coming in means Hoopa-U has to think beyond loljustspamdarkSTAB and has to weigh up this risk every time), priority and basically any physical attacker that outspeeds base 80 which can all dispatch Hoopa-U or send it running back to its trainer with its tail between its legs. Furthermore they're not unnaturally demanding to use or implement and don't mitigate a team's overall effectiveness or match-up against other mons in the tier. Hoopa-U's mediocre defensive aspects and speed have a tangible detrimental effect on Hoopa-U. Hoopa is also hurt by the fact it can't switch in to things and needs Volt-Turn support to come in safely a lot of the time. For Hoopa-U to grab its kills in the way people are prescribing to it is in a perfect scenario where the opponent doesn't also pivot or double switch around the anticipated Hoopa or predict around which button it's going to press and the Hoopa-U user clicks the right one, and as Forty notes good prediction is required on the part of the Hoopa user, particularly against faster teams where Hoopa-U doesn't provide as strong an impetus. It does have a much easier time against slower paced teams but it doesn't invalidate these playstyles in and of itself and they do have ways to respond to the threat of Hoopa-U.
I also don't feel Hoopa-U is broken as defined in III.) of the tiering policy framework of OU and does not satisfy "They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage " nor "Examples also include ones whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily gimmicky Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere" to the extent where it warrants a ban.
p2, Outrageous Fortune and Always! have made some good observations in their posts. Viable counterplay and checks to this thing do exist, like Pursuit users (the prospect of a Pursuit trapper coming in means Hoopa-U has to think beyond loljustspamdarkSTAB and has to weigh up this risk every time), priority and basically any physical attacker that outspeeds base 80 which can all dispatch Hoopa-U or send it running back to its trainer with its tail between its legs. Furthermore they're not unnaturally demanding to use or implement and don't mitigate a team's overall effectiveness or match-up against other mons in the tier. Hoopa-U's mediocre defensive aspects and speed have a tangible detrimental effect on Hoopa-U. Hoopa is also hurt by the fact it can't switch in to things and needs Volt-Turn support to come in safely a lot of the time. For Hoopa-U to grab its kills in the way people are prescribing to it is in a perfect scenario where the opponent doesn't also pivot or double switch around the anticipated Hoopa or predict around which button it's going to press and the Hoopa-U user clicks the right one, and as Forty notes good prediction is required on the part of the Hoopa user, particularly against faster teams where Hoopa-U doesn't provide as strong an impetus. It does have a much easier time against slower paced teams but it doesn't invalidate these playstyles in and of itself and they do have ways to respond to the threat of Hoopa-U.
I also don't feel Hoopa-U is broken as defined in III.) of the tiering policy framework of OU and does not satisfy "They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage " nor "Examples also include ones whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily gimmicky Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere" to the extent where it warrants a ban.
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My point was that hoopa is so versatile that you never know what set it's running, so you can sack your counters to one set early game and lose to the other late game. Stop trying to twist my words and actually look at the fucking argument lol.
Also, lo tornt actually has a lot of definite checks and counters like spdef rachi, zong, rotomw, mmane and others whereas NOTHING in the game can tank a hit from hoopa. There are a ton of mons that can switch into Keldeo , and pursuit trapping requires you to predict so you have to keep in mind that your opp can see you sending in the trapper, so the prediction there goes both ways. Clef is beaten by incoming heatran, mgross, gengar, etc and twave doesn't prevent many of its counters from beating it. Mgarde is countered very well by most steel types like spdef rachi, klefki, mmeta, zor, skarm. Mega Hera is beaten easily by clef and lando among other mons. Banded terrak is kinda valid, but defensive lando still counters. Banded azu is beaten by a lot of fat grass types like mvenu and amoong. So your point of these mons being like hoopa is kind of null since there are numerous counters for all of them, and they all have flaws on their own that stop them from being nearly as good as hoopa.
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"Hoopa can lure in fast physical attackers like lop and meta, who get punished by like tankchomp" is a pretty clear statement. The only one twisting your words here is you.
gonna post more fleshed out thoughts later but here they are summed up in one picture
(choice specs pushing hoopa over the edge)
Good post CBB, but I heartily disagree, the better set is clearly the choice band set. I will post more fleshed out thoughts later but here they are in one image.
I'm talking about it being so versatile that you can lose to any set at any given time late-game, which is really stupid. My point about physical attackers getting punished by tankchomp was just to show that competent hoopa builds usually have mons that can punish its checks.
most mons that run pursuit get blown back by fblast, tbolot is actually common on specs hoopa rn, but you would know that if you had any fucking knowledge of recent metagame trends, and the prediction argument goes both ways, so the hoopa user can also predict you to go into your resist and blow it back,
I agree that Hoopa-U's lack of a true counter and overpowering offensive stats make it deserving of a ban to Ubers. My experience, for what it's worth, is that Hoopa-U's mere presence forces a particular method of play and is therefore by definition, centralising.
Unfortunately, it seems my GXE is producing a negative value so I don't think it's possible for me to get reqs in this one. Better get to work on that!
Unfortunately, it seems my GXE is producing a negative value so I don't think it's possible for me to get reqs in this one. Better get to work on that!
Hoopa-U has forced bulky teams to run scarf tyranitar as the check to it, but this isn't even a solid check as it forces a 50/50 whether to pursuit or crunch. Hoopa-U has made playing in many playstyles very restrictive and needs to go, not to mention its many sets that leaves you guessing which mon to go into as each set has different checks.
To add onto this, even if TTar crunches correctly, they run the risk of the hoopa not being choiced and blowing it back with a fighting move after living crunch.
My point is that your point isn't a point, knowmsayin. That's basic teambuilding, not some ultra secret technique unique to hoopa. It's 100% irrelevant.
Don't try and get personal with me, I do not care in the slightest how bad you think I am. I dunno why you're bringing in prediction, I already said hoopa rewards prediction so the fuck are you on about.
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I'm gonna preface this by saying... Ban Hoopa
Pro-ban or anti-ban, we should all agree on one fact: Hoopa has no safe switchins. Let's take the recently most common specs set for example. Everything that's faster is either ohko'd or takes at least ~80%, while anything slower is 2hko'd or sometimes ohko'd. Hoopa can also run mixed LO, CB, ebelt, and so many different movesets that makes coming into it a pure guessing game. Even the "safe counters" like Hoopa and Klefki (not very good anyways) cannot come into sets like LO fire punch or specs.
Now I'd like to refute some of the common anti-ban arguments.
- "So what if Hoopa has no 100% switchins, the same can be said for Kyu-B and Manaphy": As bludz stated, what makes Hoopa different is that it has such a large array of options that switching into it sometimes is a pure guessing game. With something like Manaphy you could switch into Lati, Venusaur, Chansey, or Ferro rather safely, and even if it has the right moveset, you at least know what counters it. For Kyurem, theres Clefable, Scizor, Chansey, Ferro, Tyranitar, and more. For Hoopa though, all of the different item and moveset combinations that it can viably run makes it impossible to know what walls, if anything at all. Another thing that really makes Hoopa overpowering is the ability to often just click the appropriate dark STAB. Even vs resists, specs dark pulse or band hyperspace is difficult to switch into. Even Keldeo, a typically sturdy mon, hardly comes into STAB.
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 156-183 (48.2 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
- "Hoopa is deadweight vs offense": If offense never runs Alakazam, Manectric, Latios, Thundurus, and all those other pokemon that Hoopa 1v1s, then yea! Let's not forget the fact that Hoopa is often paired with voltturn mons like Rotom that allow free switchins vs many things that Hoopa can take advantage of. Please also bear in mind that choice scarf is a viable set on Hoopa, while offense has a super tough time switching into that. Scarf isn't even a terrible item vs balance teams, because trick and coverage moves can definitely handle some walls, with the added bonus of really messing up offense while also reliably switching into and beating pokemon like Alakazam. Here is a replay of an SPL game of mine, showcasing the threat Hoopa can be vs offense teams:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-114519
- "Hoopa is easily beaten by pursuit, a very common move": Unlike Latios and other psychic types, Hoopa actually threatens to ohko literally all pursuit users. Tyranitar, Weavile, Metagross, and any other pursuit user is directly threatened by an ohko from Hoopa, so switching right in is not a safe means of dealing with Hoopa at all. Also, unlike other psychics, Hoopa isn't necessary killed by pursuit, as it can easily live a mispredicting Tyranitar pursuit or even a pursuit on the switch if at full. If the pursuiter mispredicts, then Hoopa can threaten to ohko back with a given coverage move.
I really don't want to bring this last point up, because it's such a terrible argument for not banning something, but I feel I need to persuade some people who have this fear.
- "If Hoopa goes, what will break fat teams/stall?": Generally, if there is an issue after a ban occurs, we can all act accordingly with future suspects. This isn't even relevant here though, because fat teams will not be an issue with Hoopa gone. We still have Gardevoir, Hoopa, Zards, Torn, and so many other viable wallbreakers that it is still hard to easily get away with bulkier teams. I can assure you that people won't be freely spamming stall or semi-stall in a Hoopa-less metagame, as we saw from the tier trends before it was released.
Please, if you value the health and development of the ORAS OU metagame, vote ban.
Pro-ban or anti-ban, we should all agree on one fact: Hoopa has no safe switchins. Let's take the recently most common specs set for example. Everything that's faster is either ohko'd or takes at least ~80%, while anything slower is 2hko'd or sometimes ohko'd. Hoopa can also run mixed LO, CB, ebelt, and so many different movesets that makes coming into it a pure guessing game. Even the "safe counters" like Hoopa and Klefki (not very good anyways) cannot come into sets like LO fire punch or specs.
Now I'd like to refute some of the common anti-ban arguments.
- "So what if Hoopa has no 100% switchins, the same can be said for Kyu-B and Manaphy": As bludz stated, what makes Hoopa different is that it has such a large array of options that switching into it sometimes is a pure guessing game. With something like Manaphy you could switch into Lati, Venusaur, Chansey, or Ferro rather safely, and even if it has the right moveset, you at least know what counters it. For Kyurem, theres Clefable, Scizor, Chansey, Ferro, Tyranitar, and more. For Hoopa though, all of the different item and moveset combinations that it can viably run makes it impossible to know what walls, if anything at all. Another thing that really makes Hoopa overpowering is the ability to often just click the appropriate dark STAB. Even vs resists, specs dark pulse or band hyperspace is difficult to switch into. Even Keldeo, a typically sturdy mon, hardly comes into STAB.
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 156-183 (48.2 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
- "Hoopa is deadweight vs offense": If offense never runs Alakazam, Manectric, Latios, Thundurus, and all those other pokemon that Hoopa 1v1s, then yea! Let's not forget the fact that Hoopa is often paired with voltturn mons like Rotom that allow free switchins vs many things that Hoopa can take advantage of. Please also bear in mind that choice scarf is a viable set on Hoopa, while offense has a super tough time switching into that. Scarf isn't even a terrible item vs balance teams, because trick and coverage moves can definitely handle some walls, with the added bonus of really messing up offense while also reliably switching into and beating pokemon like Alakazam. Here is a replay of an SPL game of mine, showcasing the threat Hoopa can be vs offense teams:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-114519
- "Hoopa is easily beaten by pursuit, a very common move": Unlike Latios and other psychic types, Hoopa actually threatens to ohko literally all pursuit users. Tyranitar, Weavile, Metagross, and any other pursuit user is directly threatened by an ohko from Hoopa, so switching right in is not a safe means of dealing with Hoopa at all. Also, unlike other psychics, Hoopa isn't necessary killed by pursuit, as it can easily live a mispredicting Tyranitar pursuit or even a pursuit on the switch if at full. If the pursuiter mispredicts, then Hoopa can threaten to ohko back with a given coverage move.
I really don't want to bring this last point up, because it's such a terrible argument for not banning something, but I feel I need to persuade some people who have this fear.
- "If Hoopa goes, what will break fat teams/stall?": Generally, if there is an issue after a ban occurs, we can all act accordingly with future suspects. This isn't even relevant here though, because fat teams will not be an issue with Hoopa gone. We still have Gardevoir, Hoopa, Zards, Torn, and so many other viable wallbreakers that it is still hard to easily get away with bulkier teams. I can assure you that people won't be freely spamming stall or semi-stall in a Hoopa-less metagame, as we saw from the tier trends before it was released.
Please, if you value the health and development of the ORAS OU metagame, vote ban.
252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 235-277 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ SpA Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 404-476 (118.4 - 139.5%) -- Guaranteed OHKO
lol That's just crazy. This is why there's no safe check for Hoopa and so it should be Banned. Also it OHKOs or 2HKOs everything lol.
Its dumped on by the follow mons
-Landorus
-Weavile
-Tyranitar
-Mandibuzz (common on DECENT stall teams)
-M-scizor
-Mega Beedrill (only allowed by pure intellectuals such as myself)
-Any scarf user / faster equivalent.
Honestly not to insult anyone but I'm convinced that people who are so anti-Hoopa are people who forget what calc'ing is. Non-scarf Hoopa is slow as shit and HAS switch ins. Its pursuit trapped by tons of mons too, its not even funny.
Specs is kind of ban-worthy in my opinion, but its probably going to be the next Mega Metagross where bandwagoning children attempt to remove any mon that forces them to think outside the box on their teambuilding style.
As a stall aficionado I can safely say that Hoopa-U is a pretty big threat to most stall teams, but its nothing that can't be overcome by Mandibuzz or umbreon depending on the set. I dont want to hear the argument "well its le up in le aire xDD" since its really not. We know the mons that will be used, the stats are right in front of us.
End of discussion. Don't ban man.
-Landorus
-Weavile
-Tyranitar
-Mandibuzz (common on DECENT stall teams)
-M-scizor
-Mega Beedrill (only allowed by pure intellectuals such as myself)
-Any scarf user / faster equivalent.
Honestly not to insult anyone but I'm convinced that people who are so anti-Hoopa are people who forget what calc'ing is. Non-scarf Hoopa is slow as shit and HAS switch ins. Its pursuit trapped by tons of mons too, its not even funny.
Specs is kind of ban-worthy in my opinion, but its probably going to be the next Mega Metagross where bandwagoning children attempt to remove any mon that forces them to think outside the box on their teambuilding style.
As a stall aficionado I can safely say that Hoopa-U is a pretty big threat to most stall teams, but its nothing that can't be overcome by Mandibuzz or umbreon depending on the set. I dont want to hear the argument "well its le up in le aire xDD" since its really not. We know the mons that will be used, the stats are right in front of us.
End of discussion. Don't ban man.
My point was showing that a flaw as small as being weak to physical attacks isn't a big deal since punishers for those mons are usually integrated into teamss regardless. Me getting "personal" with you was just pointing out your lack of metagame knowledge since you called people using tbolt "retards" as tbolt is actually common on hoopa. Also, my point was that pursuit trapping requires prediction and winning 50/50s to be effective, so that's not the best way of arguing against a ban of a mon (see: aegislash).
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Its not always hard to see what item is running depending on the enemy team, if they lack special atackers then hoopa is probably specs, and even if its hard to switch into, so it is with other wallbreakers..
Like you mentioned before,stall will be stronger after hoopa u gets banned, there are also pokemons used in stall that can handle stall, seeing this, i dont see why we need to get rid of one of the ebst wallbreakers in ou, there will onlybe a few left. This will seem irrelevant now, but then some premier bulky pokemon will rise in usage and be too strong in the tier.
once again, we have like 50 mons to beat stall: taunt gengar, tg mana, lo tornt, cm clef, taunt tran, spdef talon and many others. Also, most people run hoopa on volturn, so having 2 u turners, 1 volt switcher, one special mega, and a defogger doesn't exactly point towards any one hoopa set (this is just one example)
ttar and weavile have to rely on not catching a focus blast to the face, lando, scizor, megabee, and most scarfers have to rely on not catching a dark pulse to the face (and megabee cant even safely mevo vs hoopa since hyperspace moves). If you can name one VIABLE switch in to specs hoopa that doesn't rely on prediction to get in vs hoopa safely on a switch, then I'll stop arguing with you. also, you don't know that hoopa is non-scarfed until the hoopa player controls their hand, so they force you to sack mons you don't want to early game in order to prevent hoopa from sweepping you. Also, pursuit trappers have to rely on predicting the move they switch into correctly as well as winning a 50/50 with pursuit and prediction goes both ways.
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I disagree that Hoopa-U should be ban to ubers. From reading through the thread so far it looks like people are obsessed with the fact the Hoopa can easily get a kill. Sure it has no true counter but that can be said about alot of pokemon in ou. There are so many threats in the meta game right now, like Mega Gardevoir and mega Charizard, that majority of the time your going to have to stack something when facing them. Besides most of the time your going to have a pokemon that useless against the opponents team. Not to mention Hoopa has a 4 times weakness to bug which I feel like at of people are ignoring. That basically guarantee a free u-turn giving your opponent the momentum. Next point people have brought up so far is that Hoopa forces balance to run Tyranitar or some kind of a pursuit trapper. Yeah I won't argue that almost every balanced team I've seen has ran a t-tar or some kind pf pursuit trapper but that's not solely because of Hoopa-u. There are so many threats in the meta right now,like mega gardevoir, gengar, tornadus-t, and wisp talonflame, that destroy balance your basically forced to run Tyranitar or a pursuit trapper. Even if Hoopa gets banned it won't change that fact that your basically forced to run a t-tar or some other trapper on balance in this meta. Not to mention Hoopa offers no defensive synergy, being able live 1 special hit from full doesn't count. Hoopa to me right now feels like how mega metagross, mega altaria, and manaphy were a few months ago. There was huge outcry in the community to ban them but once the meta adapted people realized they weren't even that good.
Very True. An Adamant Mega Scizor OHKOs Hoopa-U with U-Turn, but that's if you can safely switch in and it doesn't go for something like Fire Punch or Focus Blast.
gardevoir, gengar, tornt, and wisp talon do not face you to run a trapper... garde is countered by 90% of the steel types on balance, gengar is beaten by glisc and mandi, tornt is beaten by like every elec+spdef rachi, and wisp flame is beaten by tran and rock types, so these other mons dont really necessitate pursuit trapping like hoopa does. I can name a counter to any mon in OU bar hoopa, so I don't really get that point either.
I'm on the fence with Hoopa-U. If RU Exploud taught me anything, it's that even if the Pokemon in question more or less manage to secure at least one kill every match, it doesn't necessarily automatically mean it's broken if its Speed is only average and offers very minimal defensive synergy.
Power-wise, while Hoopa-U's strength is certainly very impressive, it's still only about on par with the kind of heavy damage OU is already accustomed with, examples including Mega Gardevoir, Mega Charizard (both), Azumarill, Latios, Keldeo, Mega Medicham, etc. and other such OU mainstays. Its enormous mixed attacking stats are certainly cause for concern, but from my experiences, most of Hoopa-U's soft checks still take rather similiar damage from Hoopa-U's moves so it's not as if Hoopa-U is making use of its set variety to catch opponents off-guard as opposed to just hitting a slightly different variety of targets; the same guessing game usually still applies regardless of the variant of Hoopa-U sets (Specs TBolt is probably the only real significant factor that changes this). Probably the problem people have with Hoopa-U's power would be its coverage combined with the relative lack of sturdy Dark resists in the tier (or at least, those with good longevity).
On the other hand, I see claims about Hoopa-U having no switch-ins and being able to contribute against offense. However, Hoopa-U only needs to be checked a couple of times as its opportunities to strike back against offense start to dwindle, as its average Speed and minimal switch-in opportunities are not great. I don't really know what ABR's game is really supposed to prove other than that Hoopa-U needs Choice Scarf to do well vs offense, because xRay~'s Hoopa-U managed to do jackshit but fire off a Gunk Shot that ABR's Landorus-T sponged up before being forced out to be saved as fodder for ABR's Scarf Hoopa-U. This reinforces my belief that, as easily spammable as Hoopa-U's Dark STAB is, Hoopa-U still needs to choose its attacks carefully. Many games have I witnessed that Hoopa-U only needs to be checked like once or twice before it begins to lose its usefulness against faster teams. Even most of the offensive mons that Hoopa-U can take advantage of, namely Latios, MMane, Thundy, require Hoopa-U to be at optimal circumstances: Latios can do massive damage with Meteor so you better hope Hoopa-U hadn't switched into SR / taken LO recoil twice (each), MMane can whittle with Volt Switch, and Thundurus can trip up Hoopa-U with either Thunder Wave or even the occasional physical move.
Even stall still has a bit of room to adapt; if they were so willing and eager to slap on Shadow Tag Goth, the use of trappers to remove wallbreakers is not exactly a dying trend. And it's not just Scarf TTar that is capable, stuff like Dugtrio can still work, and ABR has had success with a goddamn CB Pursuit Weavile on his stall, although considering he's on the pro-ban side this probably isn't the greatest argument. Also the reason people have brought up Scarf TTar incessantly as stall's answer to Hoopa-U is that Choiced Hoopa-U cannot afford to lock itself into its Dark and Psychic STAB or risk getting prematurely removed.
Probably the biggest proponent for Hoopa-U's ban is the pressure it can exert on balance, the playstyle that offers Hoopa-U a decent amount of breaking opportunities yet is the playstyle that can least afford to simply sac mons, although I still have my doubts on whether Hoopa-U is that much more overwhelming than other balance breakers; its ease of switching into bulky Psychic-types is arguably somewhat nice...well, depending on your perspective of course. Anyway, these are just my thoughts; I'm still not set in stone on my opinion on Hoopa-U just yet.
Power-wise, while Hoopa-U's strength is certainly very impressive, it's still only about on par with the kind of heavy damage OU is already accustomed with, examples including Mega Gardevoir, Mega Charizard (both), Azumarill, Latios, Keldeo, Mega Medicham, etc. and other such OU mainstays. Its enormous mixed attacking stats are certainly cause for concern, but from my experiences, most of Hoopa-U's soft checks still take rather similiar damage from Hoopa-U's moves so it's not as if Hoopa-U is making use of its set variety to catch opponents off-guard as opposed to just hitting a slightly different variety of targets; the same guessing game usually still applies regardless of the variant of Hoopa-U sets (Specs TBolt is probably the only real significant factor that changes this). Probably the problem people have with Hoopa-U's power would be its coverage combined with the relative lack of sturdy Dark resists in the tier (or at least, those with good longevity).
On the other hand, I see claims about Hoopa-U having no switch-ins and being able to contribute against offense. However, Hoopa-U only needs to be checked a couple of times as its opportunities to strike back against offense start to dwindle, as its average Speed and minimal switch-in opportunities are not great. I don't really know what ABR's game is really supposed to prove other than that Hoopa-U needs Choice Scarf to do well vs offense, because xRay~'s Hoopa-U managed to do jackshit but fire off a Gunk Shot that ABR's Landorus-T sponged up before being forced out to be saved as fodder for ABR's Scarf Hoopa-U. This reinforces my belief that, as easily spammable as Hoopa-U's Dark STAB is, Hoopa-U still needs to choose its attacks carefully. Many games have I witnessed that Hoopa-U only needs to be checked like once or twice before it begins to lose its usefulness against faster teams. Even most of the offensive mons that Hoopa-U can take advantage of, namely Latios, MMane, Thundy, require Hoopa-U to be at optimal circumstances: Latios can do massive damage with Meteor so you better hope Hoopa-U hadn't switched into SR / taken LO recoil twice (each), MMane can whittle with Volt Switch, and Thundurus can trip up Hoopa-U with either Thunder Wave or even the occasional physical move.
Even stall still has a bit of room to adapt; if they were so willing and eager to slap on Shadow Tag Goth, the use of trappers to remove wallbreakers is not exactly a dying trend. And it's not just Scarf TTar that is capable, stuff like Dugtrio can still work, and ABR has had success with a goddamn CB Pursuit Weavile on his stall, although considering he's on the pro-ban side this probably isn't the greatest argument. Also the reason people have brought up Scarf TTar incessantly as stall's answer to Hoopa-U is that Choiced Hoopa-U cannot afford to lock itself into its Dark and Psychic STAB or risk getting prematurely removed.
Probably the biggest proponent for Hoopa-U's ban is the pressure it can exert on balance, the playstyle that offers Hoopa-U a decent amount of breaking opportunities yet is the playstyle that can least afford to simply sac mons, although I still have my doubts on whether Hoopa-U is that much more overwhelming than other balance breakers; its ease of switching into bulky Psychic-types is arguably somewhat nice...well, depending on your perspective of course. Anyway, these are just my thoughts; I'm still not set in stone on my opinion on Hoopa-U just yet.
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