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You just cannot just prove that hoopa is average mon while facing offence just by saying so. I am sure that hoopa is below average; It is dead weight, it does what every mon with halve decent attack does but worse because it is slower and often choice locked. Getting one kill against offence it is not huge deal at all. And being slow and choice locked against offence is not something you want.
And being bad against offence is actually huge weakness considering it is most popular playstyle in both ladder and tournaments.
Here let's use our power of imagination for while. Mon x is overhyped right now but it has huge weakness against y playstyle. It is reasonable to expect that more people will use playstyle y because that makes their team effectively 5 vs 6. We can predict what will happen next. People are understanding hype and usage of mon x drops significantly. Because of that playstyle y also has lower usage and everything returns to normal state.
Imo thats the big thing here. The whole argument of "it 2hkoes everything" is implying perfect prediction the whole time and nobody seems to care. The whole Hoopa vs stall thing is totaly overblown anyway. Just take a 0815 stall team with sab, chans, skarm, quag, clef, amoon. If we look at these mons there are a few things to consider when faced with specs Hoopa.
1. To every move that Hoopa has, the team has 2 save switch ins. Chans/Clef for Darkpulse, Skarm/sab for Psyshock, Chans/ammon/clef for Focusblast and everything but Skarm and maybe Sab for Tbolt.
2. Most of these mons can attack Hoopas weak defense if they choose to and therefore can 2hko it or at least come close and/or they have status to cripple it.
3. Outside of Amoon who can't live a psyshock all of them will survive an attack from Hoopa from full life, even Quagsire only has a 12,5% chance to die to a Dark Pulse.
4. All of them have recovery to heal off any damage taken.
So in order to kill one of these mons Hoopa has to use the right move on the switch which would be farely easy, but it needs to do this twice (because obviously chansey will switch back out after taking a psyshock) and it needs to do that before that mon gets a chance to heal of the damage taken from the first hit against one of the other 5 mons on Hoopas team.
Honestly unless your reading you opponent like a freaking book i don't see how Hoopa can just easily 6-0 such a stall team on its own. It can't even switch into these mons attacks without taking tons of damage for the most part. So it will need support to even come in and i dare say that, if its the only thing on your team thats good against stall, it will also need HW support to get its work done.
I can somewhat understand a stall player saying "I don't want to have to deal with these kind of stupid guessing games all the time i face Hoopa" and therefor wanting it banned, I'd even go so far as to say its a legitimate reason to ban it because its really stupid in a sense. But you people totally overrate its effectiveness.
With balance its similar, a good balance team has enough speed and offensive presence to limit Hoopas switch in opportunitys and if you manage to predict when it's trying to come in, you can even take advantage of it with appropriate plays. (Expecting a double to Hoopa when you would normally bring in your Slowbro isn't exactly rocket science). And whats more, balance teams usually have a good amount of redundancy for the most common threats in the meta so that, even if they happen to lose one of their mons to Hoopa, they can still work out just fine.
If anyone wants to ban hoopa because of the guessing games it causes, fine, but please stop acting like its 6-0ing stall/balance on its own without any trouble because its far from that. Not with that shitty defense, prediction reliance and complete lack of recovery.
/PS stall has always been the playstyle that needs to adapt to the meta surrounding it in order to work. If adapting to Hoopa means using some kind of Pursuit support, why is this such a bad thing all of a sudden? It wasn't a big issue for stall to abuse Goth trapping in order to deal with Manaphy? As far as I know there is no rule saying that stall teams must be able to just switch their opponents to death without attacking is there?
Hoopa-U doesn't straight-up lose to offense. Sure its a little harder (although IIRC aspects of BO just drop to this thing due to it being able to take advantage of the defensive backbone to get onto the field safely), but it can still achieve something notable versus HO. Bring it into a special attacker (e.g. Latios) on a slow VoltTurn and you are basically guaranteed a KO. It has attained its goal, and it can either die having achieved something or potentially proceed to do that again later in the match depending on what it comes in against. Its really not that hard to allow it to achieve its goal in about 90% of team matchups lol.
Alright, so I've laddered for a bit on like 3 separate accounts (keep getting haxed low ladder wtf) and I've seen a fair bit of the metagame (up to about 1400 right now, working on my reqs account) and this is what I think (I plan to ladder and vote btw):
A note before we start: I play HO and slow, powerful offense (MegaCross, Hoopa, Medicham) so I have a bias towards Hoopa. This is what I've seen:
1) Surprising lack of stall/bulk. Normally when I ladder I see a bulky team every 2-3 teams from 1000-1400, and during this laddering session I've seen one every 5 or so. I haven't seen ANY stall teams yet. Now, this could be attributed to several factors, the first being that this is a suspect test, meaning quick games in an attempt to get COIL. The second is of course me being lower on the ladder, with more HO and silly teams.
2) A rise in other stallbreakers. Mega Heracross (my mega of choice) and Mega Medicham are HUGE on the ladder. I haven't seen Megacham this much since the MSableye suspect test. I also see Talonflame on almost every team, so take that for what you will.
Overall, these are my pro and anti-ban feelings:
Pro-Ban
1) Literally nothing can switch into Hoopa. With greninja we had a few things that could counter, but we had to go to Porygon-2 to get it. Hoopa has much more coverage and is much more powerful. With specs it 2HKOs the entire metagame, and the physical set breaks through special walls.
2) Variety. Hoopa runs many sets equally effectively. Even looking at a team layout it's difficult to tell what set it's running, and if you play wrong you lose a pokemon. Even if you guess right you can lose a pokemon.
3) Invalidates a playstyle. This is the biggest reason Im seeing tossed around for Hoopa's ban. It completely invalidates slower, bulkier teams. It breaks stall almost single-handedly (unless said stall is running a trapper like Ttar).
Anti-ban
1) Slow speed. Gets outsped and gives free momentum whenever a faster u-turner comes in. It can hit hard against offense (especially when in against a Lati), but it can be deadweight against volt-turn teams
2) Hoopa reminds me of hydreigon in earlier gens. Nothing can switch into it, and it has no true counters, but it gets revenge killed fairly easily. Hydreigon was even before fairies were introduced. I honestly feel Hoopa is a more powerful hydreigon. Definitely worth being in the top tier of mons, but not sure if it deserves a ban.
Right now I'm undecided. I'm leaning Anti-ban because I enjoy using it and I dont think it breaks the metagame. Ive seen people with stall beat Hoopas and I've seen them lose to Keldeos. The set really makes the pokemon, and while the right set of anything can beat your team it doesn't mean said mon is broken.
I'm coming to weigh in on the hoopa suspct as I'm finding a lot of it really rediculous. This is coming from a bulky offense/offense player so it definitely has bias, but hoopa is one only one of my teams and its not like I need it too function.
Even so, this is pretty easy to misconstrue, so I'm going to say that I completely acknowledge that hoopa-u is, quite simply, amazing against stall. Its definitally one of the best stallbreakers in the tier, only really facing competition from manaphy, talonflame, and serperior. Still, however, i don't consider it to be broken.
First of all, it does have counters. Not ones that can switch in easily multiple times per game, but counters nonetheless- some of which, surprisingly, remain counters after stealth rocks. For instance:
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 288-340 (75.3 - 89%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock/252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Landorus-T: 261-307 (68.3 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
and 0 Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hoopa Unbound: 420-496 (139.5 - 164.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Since landorus is naturally faster, Landorus can come in as long as stealth rocks arent on the feild wuith even up to 10% chip, while simultaneously forcing out hoopa-u and gaining momentum.
Even modest fails to ko if rocks arent up.
This thing is in NU for a reason, but if rocks arent up it is definitally a counter- One that can come in multiple times per game thanks to wishtect.
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 172 SpD Mega Audino: 171-202 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Mega Audino: 168-198 (40.9 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It can't wall sets carrying psychic without sacrificing its ability to wall psyshock, or indeed stop hyperspace hole sets at all, but hoopa doesn't have the moveslots to run those.
There are a couple more that I'm to lazy to name, but I can list them if someone really wants (I wouldn't bother, they are mostly niche av mons)
Furthermore, the aforesaid three stallbreakers do a lot more against offense. I know this has been said before, and hoopa-u isn't dead wait vs offense, but manaphy, for instance, is threatening to all playstyles (boosting for stall, scald burns for offense, coverage for balance, decent bulk for beating rkers, ...). Even specdef talonflame is a nightmare for setup sweepers, especially if you go for the (less popular, but similarly good) max attack 248 hp stallbreaker talonflame. Since offense is the most common playstyle by far, that kind of a advantage is huge.
I'm going to try and get on a bit more to finish reks, but while Hoopa-u is certainly an excellent mon, I don't want to see it go.
TL;DR Hoopa-U shouldn't be Banned because its specs set is much better.
Having to sack to deal with something may not be a problem for offense, but there are no remotely safe (long term) switchins to Hoopa-U, which is a problem, especially when you're using a team that would rather not sack every time something comes in. Its one thing to sack because "M-Pinsir got to +2 and skarmory can't take SR and 2 Returns, so I'll sack ", its another thing to sack because "lol what switchins?". Its not even like Lando-I where you could stack 2-3 things and be more or less safe ("if it has HP Ice it doesn't have Focus Blast so Gliscor+Skarmory should cut it"), this thing has one set with absolutely no switch ins that can come in more than once.
You just cannot just prove that hoopa is average mon while facing offence just by saying so. I am sure that hoopa is below average; It is dead weight, it does what every mon with halve decent attack does but worse because it is slower and often choice locked. Getting one kill against offence it is not huge deal at all. And being slow and choice locked against offence is not something you want.
And being bad against offence is actually huge weakness considering it is most popular playstyle in both ladder and tournaments.
I mean, I don't know but Hoopa-U uninvested can survive Charizard Y's Fire Blast in the sun, which means it can take special attacks at least reasonably well (note there are defensive pokemon who wish they survive that). Someone before me pointed out how the best Rotom-W answers are pretty much Hoopa-U food, so at one point you may find yourself giving it a switch-in. If it can get "one kill" vs offense, that means its a 1v1 trade, and I'd say thats not exceptional but its certainly not "below average," it has really good special bulk for an offensive pokemon so it can at least trade off an opposing special attacker. Lastly 160/170 offenses are no way "half decent" because those are some of the highest combined offenses on any single pokemon that exists (the only OU legal one to come close is M-Diancie, and thats a mega).
Here let's use our power of imagination for while. Mon x is overhyped right now but it has huge weakness against y playstyle. It is reasonable to expect that more people will use playstyle y because that makes their team effectively 5 vs 6. We can predict what will happen next. People are understanding hype and usage of mon x drops significantly. Because of that playstyle y also has lower usage and everything returns to normal state.
You're cutting this cycle off too early because what happens when the teams mon x does well against start being used again? Then mon x usage returns because "hey look at this surge of teams it absolutely destroys!" So you probably won't get a return to a 'normal state', playstyle y (in this case fast offense) will dominate, because hey it doesn't have to worry that much about mon X and still matches up well with other playstyle y teams, with the other playstyles (more defensive teams) still get used from time to time because they're anti-meta, but remain inconsistent because of mon x's existence. Even if Hoopa-U isn't used all that often, its going to affect those teams simply by being an option.
I'd vote ban if I could get reqs (hell week of exams&papers) because you can't expect teams all to carry Pursuit/constant Offensive pressure because those simply don't fit on some types of teams if you consider team style (see Scarf Tyranitar on a Stall team). Its akin to pretty much all physical attackers running EQ to not get messed up by Aegislash, its like balance needing P2 for Greninja, its like Shed Shell+Pursuit Support for every stallbreaker for STag, it under all other circumstances is a bad option for a team but is pretty much a necessity because of one threat (this time its random scarfed pursuit on defensive teams).
I'm coming to weigh in on the hoopa suspct as I'm finding a lot of it really rediculous. This is coming from a bulky offense/offense player so it definitely has bias, but hoopa is one only one of my teams and its not like I need it too function.
Even so, this is pretty easy to misconstrue, so I'm going to say that I completely acknowledge that hoopa-u is, quite simply, amazing against stall. Its definitally one of the best stallbreakers in the tier, only really facing competition from manaphy, talonflame, and serperior. Still, however, i don't consider it to be broken.
First of all, it does have counters. Not ones that can switch in easily multiple times per game, but counters nonetheless- some of which, surprisingly, remain counters after stealth rocks. For instance:
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 288-340 (75.3 - 89%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock/252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Landorus-T: 261-307 (68.3 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
and 0 Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hoopa Unbound: 420-496 (139.5 - 164.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Since landorus is naturally faster, Landorus can come in as long as stealth rocks arent on the feild wuith even up to 10% chip, while simultaneously forcing out hoopa-u and gaining momentum.
Even modest fails to ko if rocks arent up.
This thing is in NU for a reason, but if rocks arent up it is definitally a counter- One that can come in multiple times per game thanks to wishtect.
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 172 SpD Mega Audino: 171-202 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Mega Audino: 168-198 (40.9 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It can't wall sets carrying psychic without sacrificing its ability to wall psyshock, or indeed stop hyperspace hole sets at all, but hoopa doesn't have the moveslots to run those.
There are a couple more that I'm to lazy to name, but I can list them if someone really wants (I wouldn't bother, they are mostly niche av mons)
Furthermore, the aforesaid three stallbreakers do a lot more against offense. I know this has been said before, and hoopa-u isn't dead wait vs offense, but manaphy, for instance, is threatening to all playstyles (boosting for stall, scald burns for offense, coverage for balance, decent bulk for beating rkers, ...). Even specdef talonflame is a nightmare for setup sweepers, especially if you go for the (less popular, but similarly good) max attack 248 hp stallbreaker talonflame. Since offense is the most common playstyle by far, that kind of a advantage is huge.
I'm going to try and get on a bit more to finish reks, but while Hoopa-u is certainly an excellent mon, I don't want to see it go.
TL;DR Hoopa-U shouldn't be Banned because its specs set is much better.
I don't think the calcs you present lead to the conclusion that Hoopa can be countered in OU.
Defensive Landorus-t can take a Dark Pulse but it won't be able to actually hit Hoopa unless it also invests a tonne of speed. The sort of set you would end up with would be something like
That's the amount of speed you need to ensure you outpace Hoopa. Now there is speed creeping and there is running 168 EVs and a Jolly Nature. That set is neither a piece in a defensive core, nor an offensive threat. It is simply a dedicated, one off switch in to Hoopa. The need for these sets is one if the key symptoms of centralisation (not that this one actually works anyway since Hoopa can just switch out and now you have a HP and Speed invested Lando at 11%).
Another common sign that something is an overly centralising force is when obscure answers with low viability in OU see a rise in usage. Mega Audino would be the definition of such a pokemon. And even that is hardly a counter since it does zero back to Hoopa without a few CMs up, the Sp def gain of which is negated by Psyshock.
My initial reaction to this suspect was one of surprise because Hoopa is not necessarily that great against the kind of playstyles I mostly use. However, the players who tend towards stall have put forward very cohesive arguments showing by numbers how Hoopa is the death of purely defensive teams.
Hoopa is a fun pokemon, but in my opinion the tier is more fun for everyone when all playstyles can function and you get to see different kinds of teams. By single handedly ruling out an entire style I feel Hoopa does more harm than good. Ban.
Man, to average players like me these suspects tests seem to get more sudden and unexpected. It seems like just yesterday when people all over the viability thread gushing about how awesome Mega Latias is and how she's god's gift to balance (Ooooo balance and bulky teams got a shot in the arm, yaay balance) and now it seems that every other poster on this thread sees Hoopa as the death of all things bulky. I'm not gonna talk about Hoopa's raw attributes or pros and cons because the OP outlined them enough but here's how I see it;
Are bulky teams/mons un/less viable with Hoopa around?: Not that I see. Looking at February's usage stats Lando, Heatran, Clefable, Ferrothorn, Skarmory and Rotom are all in the top 10 of usage in the 1825 stats. Unless I'm missing some vital tournament data this tells me that there is still merit to having a bulky backbone despite having such an unstoppable wallbreaker running around. I suppose Hoopa's Specs set wasn't really a thing until more recently but I have a hard time believing the top 10 used mons will change much in March either because....
Does Hoopa force teams to use otherwise unviable answers to it?: Again, not from what I've seen. You just can't afford to be passive against it. You may have to build and play more offensively but this isn't the end of the world. If my definition of "check" is correct (can beat the mon in question but can't switch in) there's a lots of viable checks to any Hoopa set. Balance and bulky teams can afford to run any of these because flexibility is a well known asset of these teams. It's what makes them so popular and it's why they will continue to be popular even with Hoopa around. As for Hoopa's effect against offense, yes it's more than just a sac against it but Hoopa is also not more than an average threat due to Hoopa's many cons. I'll get to what I think of stall in a sec.
Are games where Hoopa is present degenerate? Is skill less of a factor for either player?: Not more than any other Choice user. The "better" sets (ie choice) are still prediction heavy in their use. Yes the right attack will obliterate a mon but the right switch will save you damage. I don't see that as being any different than Azu, Excadrill, or Keldeo. The mons I listed don't have the raw power or coverage of Hoopa but they do have the speed or typing to get a second chance should they mess up. If Hoopa mispredicts its very real frailty and low speed could very well mean it's not coming in again. If Hoopa does switch out that means Hoopa's partner is eating an attack and it's up to the attacker in question to predict Hoopa's switch to decide how much Hoopa's teammate is going to take. Sounds like basic pokemoning to me. I feel Hoopa is a unique mon where it breaks any and all defensive cores but has zero defensive merit itself. Basically, he's just a roided out choice mon and can be dealt with as such. As for non-choice sets, other mons like Keldeo that are usually choiced have non-choice sets that can net a surprise kill and they're not on the chopping block. Kyub is usually not choiced but can be to surprise it's usual checks. I feel we aren't dealing with anything new here.
On Stall: Poor stall. It's either broken and people hate it or it gets what it needs taken away and it becomes the lowest of the archtypes (feel free to dispute me there. I was under the impression that, before the suspect test, stall saw a fair amount of usage on the higher end of the ladder). Either way, as more offensive threats emerge traditional Stall as a playstyle will continue to get more and more niche. Teams will continue to become more and more proactive. It's just the nature of the game. It's easier to be asking the questions than providing the answers so to speak. I see no further reason to preserve traditional Stall as it is. The core of four or so mons keeping Stall afloat will continue to get weaker and weaker as new threats emerge. If Stall can't adapt to new threats like other playstyles can then it will have to be shown the door eventually.
If you can't tell by my musings I would say no ban on Hoopa
I'm about 10-15 games away from getting reqs, and I can conclude right now that the ladder isn't all that different without Hoopa-U. Matter of fact, the ladder is LESS FUN without it. Using stall teams, I find Mega Heracross and Taunt Gardevoir much more difficult to play around than Hoopa-U. I change my mind and vote NO BAN.
I think think there is a flaw with comparing the ladder before and during the suspect.
Hoopa really wasn't super common on the ladder before this suspect. It had grown in popularity a bit, but the Specs set was a relatively new discovery. A lot of ladder players didnt really know about it and it was honestly not the most common set you would find on the ladder even though it should have been. What I'm saying is I think choosing to suspect it this soon after the discovery of its best set (which admittedly dominated tour play) never gave the ladder a chance to turn into what it would have. This is also the reason a lot of players who mostly ladder and don't follow the tour scene were surprised by this suspect. Hoopa's impact on the metagame really did not manifest itself fully on the ladder before the suspect test. Thus, comparing the ladder then and now doesn't really portray a fully accurate representation of the difference between a metagame with and without Hoopa.
Im not going to decry the timing of the suspect because I'm just glad this thing is getting suspected. That said I think the timing does favor the anti-ban faction simply because a lot of players only got to experience a metagame that was only just beginning to be influenced by Hoopa
So I think the best metagame to look at if you want an accurate representation of Hoopa's impact is the tour metagame. It's been known that the tour meta tends to stay ahead of the ladder, and it is the primary reason for this suspect in the first place
Voting "no ban" because you find the current metagame more enjoyable, regardless of the suspect itself, is extremely superficial to me, and I'll try to explain why. This won't have much effect on the Hoopa suspect, it's more a matter of tiering philosophy.
Say hypothetically, banning both X and Y together makes the metagame more fun, but banning either individually makes it less so. Voting based on which metagame you enjoy more will therefore never create an optimal metagame. To avoid this potential pitfall, I'd much prefer we continue to negotiate a concept of an ideal metagame we're aiming towards, and then in that context define what a "balanced" Pokemon looks like, and vote on each suspect accordingly.
I keep seeing people reiterate the same arguments about why hoopa should not get a ban. Saying the same, refuted arguments again and again does not make them valid. Yet for some reason I hardly ever see the do not ban crowd make valid counterarguments to the reasons to ban it that don't involve "stall is dying anyways", "so what", " but look at all these other mons with no switchins!!!1!11!", or "use offense".
As for the argument that defensive mons are still common so hoopa isnt broken, clef, ferro, and lando are all so popular because of how much necessary support they provide their teams. You cannot form a decent team with absolutely no defensive backbone, so It's near impossible to make a team without any hoopa bait on it. Hoopa destroys almost anything defensive just by spamming it's stabs with the rare focus blast here and there. It drives the meta twords a very offensive state. A meta with purely offense is not a healthy one, it's a dull one that lacks variety and gets boring quickly.
Hoopa is a all in one balance and stallbreaker, destroying anything that would dare to try to switch in. Combine this with hoopa's synergy with mega lop and mega manectric, common offense breakers, and you've got a broken mon. It's "counterplay" by balance and stall is to let something die and revenge hoopa with pursuit. That is not fucking acceptable in any way, especially considering that these playstyles cannot afford to fodder mons like offense can.
There really aren't any valid arguments for hoopa staying I've seen that haven't already been refuted several different times in this thread. A mon should not be capable of blanket checking an ENTIRE PLAYSTYLE and seriously damaging the viability of another. And offense players should not have to have their preferred playstyle be directly endangered by the existence of hoopa to realize the negative impact it has on the meta as a whole and be pro ban.
I keep seeing people reiterate the same arguments about why hoopa should not get a ban. Saying the same, refuted arguments again and again does not make them valid. Yet for some reason I hardly ever see the do not ban crowd make valid counterarguments to the reasons to ban it that don't involve "stall is dying anyways", "so what", " but look at all these other mons with no switchins!!!1!11!", or "use offense".
As for the argument that defensive mons are still common so hoopa isnt broken, clef, ferro, and lando are all so popular because of how much necessary support they provide their teams. You cannot form a decent team with absolutely no defensive backbone, so It's near impossible to make a team without any hoopa bait on it. Hoopa destroys almost anything defensive just by spamming it's stabs with the rare focus blast here and there. It drives the meta twords a very offensive state. A meta with purely offense is not a healthy one, it's a dull one that lacks variety and gets boring quickly.
Hoopa is a all in one balance and stallbreaker, destroying anything that would dare to try to switch in. Combine this with hoopa's synergy with mega lop and mega manectric, common offense breakers, and you've got a broken mon. It's "counterplay" by balance and stall is to let something die and revenge hoopa with pursuit. That is not fucking acceptable in any way, especially considering that these playstyles cannot afford to fodder mons like offense can.
There really aren't any valid arguments for hoopa staying I've seen that haven't already been refuted several different times in this thread. A mon should not be capable of blanket checking an ENTIRE PLAYSTYLE and seriously damaging the viability of another. And offense players should not have to have their preferred playstyle be directly endangered by the existence of hoopa to realize the negative impact it has on the meta as a whole and be pro ban.
It doesn't do that, though. It 2hko's the entire meta after stealth rocks if the hoopa-player predicts correctly and the stall player isn't running immunities. If you run a dark and/or ghost type, then all of a sudden being choice locked into focus blast/psychic stab is a bad Idea. They hit your chansey with psyshock? I'm sure their team won't appreciate a random will o wisp/toxic/more hazards/removal of the stealth rocks Hoopa needs. Whats more, They cant exactly afford to stack stallbreakers (hoopa needs team support), so if they misspredict, they are up against a stall team without their best member. Teams with hoopa cant just "click moves and win", even vs stall- it takes a lot more than that. They can double switch out, but what if you stay in and recover? Then they are back where they started, only they still have to get hoopa back in.
These characteristics are always there for everything and don't necessarily make a mon not broken, but while hoopa is incredible it doesn't just autowin, which is what I feel a lot of people are saying it does.
I'm about 10-15 games away from getting reqs, and I can conclude right now that the ladder isn't all that different without Hoopa-U. Matter of fact, the ladder is LESS FUN without it. Using stall teams, I find Mega Heracross and Taunt Gardevoir much more difficult to play around than Hoopa-U. I change my mind and vote NO BAN.
you have to take into account that ladder is going to overprepare for stall with the "almighty stall beaker hoopa" being gone from the tier and they are goig to run more stallbreakers to overprepare for stall. That's just the way suspect ladders are when stallbreakers are being suspected.
It doesn't do that, though. It 2hko's the entire meta after stealth rocks if the hoopa-player predicts correctly and the stall player isn't running immunities. If you run a dark and/or ghost type, then all of a sudden being choice locked into focus blast/psychic stab is a bad Idea. They hit your chansey with psyshock? I'm sure their team won't appreciate a random will o wisp/toxic/more hazards/removal of the stealth rocks Hoopa needs. Whats more, They cant exactly afford to stack stallbreakers (hoopa needs team support), so if they misspredict, they are up against a stall team without their best member. Teams with hoopa cant just "click moves and win", even vs stall- it takes a lot more than that. They can double switch out, but what if you stay in and recover? Then they are back where they started, only they still have to get hoopa back in.
These characteristics are always there for everything and don't necessarily make a mon not broken, but while hoopa is incredible it doesn't just autowin, which is what I feel a lot of people are saying it does.
Obviously it's not an autowin with choice sets but the point is any half competent player can blow through a stall team with hoopa with little to no effort and a little (easy) prediction. Hazards aren't a big problem for hoopa as most hoopa teams run a defogger. With minimal support like a status sponge hoopa is at a MASSIVE advantage from the team preview. Id also like to point out that the life orb set also exists and it's also capable of eating stall alive even more so than specs (though it's less effective against balance than CB/specs).
It doesn't do that, though. It 2hko's the entire meta after stealth rocks if the hoopa-player predicts correctly and the stall player isn't running immunities. If you run a dark and/or ghost type, then all of a sudden being choice locked into focus blast/psychic stab is a bad Idea. They hit your chansey with psyshock? I'm sure their team won't appreciate a random will o wisp/toxic/more hazards/removal of the stealth rocks Hoopa needs. Whats more, They cant exactly afford to stack stallbreakers (hoopa needs team support), so if they misspredict, they are up against a stall team without their best member. Teams with hoopa cant just "click moves and win", even vs stall- it takes a lot more than that. They can double switch out, but what if you stay in and recover? Then they are back where they started, only they still have to get hoopa back in.
These characteristics are always there for everything and don't necessarily make a mon not broken, but while hoopa is incredible it doesn't just autowin, which is what I feel a lot of people are saying it does.
Don't forget the versatility factor. you can bluff specs with the intention of getting their dark type in (and focus blast) or ghost type in (and psyshock). But anyway, all you're saying is that you need to treat HoopaU like you would any other breaker: don't switch into a wisp, don't stay in on unfavorable matchups, etc, when Hoopa is not any other breaker.
We're on page 13 here but if you go back through this thread (which anyone who is going to post should do, please do it, read the whole thing, cause these past three pages have been rehashes of arguments already made on both sides) you'll read about all the ways in which Hoopa outperforms all other breakers in the tier.
Obviously it's not an autowin with choice sets but the point is any half competent player can blow through a stall team with hoopa with little to no effort and a little (easy) prediction. Hazards aren't a big problem for hoopa as most hoopa teams run a defogger. With minimal support like a status sponge hoopa is at a MASSIVE advantage from the team preview. Id also like to point out that the life orb set also exists and it's also capable of eating stall alive even more so than specs (though it's less effective against balance than CB/specs).
Why does stall not have to run a counter to Hoopa? Should we ban stealth rocks, a move that sees way more play than Hoopa, because it forces stall and most teams to run Defog/Rapid Spin? Stall has to run Unaware Clef or Quagsire to counter Manaphy, why is that not banned?
Why does stall not have to run a counter to Hoopa? Should we ban stealth rocks, a move that sees way more play than Hoopa, because it forces stall and most teams to run Defog/Rapid Spin? Stall has to run Unaware Clef or Quagsire to counter Manaphy, why is that not banned?
No, come onnn, stop with the 'why don't we ban this' 'why don't we ban this hmmmmm??' Are these trolls and I'm the only one taking the bait? Chansey walls manaphy, and most stall has chansey.
Moreover, this is a suspect of Hoopa. Not manaphy. If you feel manaphy is broken, bring it up somewhere else. If you don't, then stop bringing it up.
Why does stall not have to run a counter to Hoopa? Should we ban stealth rocks, a move that sees way more play than Hoopa, because it forces stall and most teams to run Defog/Rapid Spin? Stall has to run Unaware Clef or Quagsire to counter Manaphy, why is that not banned?
Stall does not run a counter because like has been said before time and time again, there are none. And please dont compare rocks to hoopa, as they arent at all comparable. Stall should have to run counters to common threats clearly but the reason stall has trouble with hoopa is that there is literally nothing that defensively beats it.
Obviously it's not an autowin with choice sets but the point is any half competent player can blow through a stall team with hoopa with little to no effort and a little (easy) prediction. Hazards aren't a big problem for hoopa as most hoopa teams run a defogger. With minimal support like a status sponge hoopa is at a MASSIVE advantage from the team preview. Id also like to point out that the life orb set also exists and it's also capable of eating stall alive even more so than specs (though it's less effective against balance than CB/specs).
Not hazards on hoopa's side- Hoopa has to have hazards on the opponents side, which is hard as 99% of stall runs defog, and 95% runs mega sableye.
Furthermore, they can't "blow through" without outpredicting, which is generally a sign that they are slightly more than halfway confident. A better argument might be that clicking randomly gives them a 25% chance of victory, but in order to have anything like an assured win you need to be at least comparable to your opponent.
Don't forget the versatility factor. you can bluff specs with the intention of getting their dark type in (and focus blast) or ghost type in (and psyshock). But anyway, all you're saying is that you need to treat HoopaU like you would any other breaker: don't switch into a wisp, don't stay in on unfavorable matchups, etc, when Hoopa is not any other breaker.
We're on page 13 here but if you go back through this thread (which anyone who is going to post should do, please do it, read the whole thing, cause these past three pages have been rehashes of arguments already made on both sides) you'll read about all the ways in which Hoopa outperforms all other breakers in the tier.
I have read through the entire thread, yes. And yes, you shouldn't treat HoopaU like any other breaker, but you should treat it like one of the good ones- Play carefully, and attempt to outplay. Manaphy, serperior, Talonflame, and a few others are perfectly capable and willing to blow through stall if you get outpredicted (ie, you have few to no "safe" plays)- the main thing about hoopa is that it hits straight off the start. However, it is even more prediction reliant than the others, has a smaller niche, and many of the mons it nominally beats can simply sit in on it and spam recovery while waiting for hoopa to run out of Focus blasts.
Not hazards on hoopa's side- Hoopa has to have hazards on the opponents side, which is hard as 99% of stall runs defog, and 95% runs mega sableye.
Furthermore, they can't "blow through" without outpredicting, which is generally a sign that they are slightly more than halfway confident. A better argument might be that clicking randomly gives them a 25% chance of victory, but in order to have anything like an assured win you need to be at least comparable to your opponent.
I have read through the entire thread, yes. And yes, you shouldn't treat HoopaU like any other breaker, but you should treat it like one of the good ones- Play carefully, and attempt to outplay. Manaphy, serperior, Talonflame, and a few others are perfectly capable and willing to blow through stall if you get outpredicted (ie, you have few to no "safe" plays)- the main thing about hoopa is that it hits straight off the start. However, it is even more prediction reliant than the others, has a smaller niche, and many of the mons it nominally beats can simply sit in on it and spam recovery while waiting for hoopa to run out of Focus blasts.
what?? i've been sitting by and reading bad arguments too long man
what do you mean Hoopa has a small niche? it's literally the best mon that's OU viable and there's literally no reason you shouldn't use it if you want to break through stall / balance with ease. It's obvious that Talonflame or Manaphy could run through Stall too, but they require a set amount of support and have to have any check / counter to them removed to even hope of 6-0'ing Stall itself. Hoopa requires so little support to destroy bulkier that it'd be a better alternative to other Stallbreakers nearly 9/10. Do you not realize that Manaphy is literally trash without a boost and it's incredibly pressured to do so, Talonflame needs Hazard Control and other support, etc, etc.
Do you not realize you're spamming Dark Pulse 99.99% of the time and more often than not something going to drop? It has no safe switch-in's in the entire meta and if you don't have counterplay you're done for
AV drapion and mega audino (assuming these are the counters you speak of) are not relevant enough counters to bring up, and they do not make hoopa u not broken. again im going to quote this part of the tiering policy thread where broken is being defined to make my point about this
C.) Examples also include ones whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily gimmicky Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere. These examples also limit team building skill.
Drapion lacks recovery making it a one time check to hoopa (not to mention that it checks like nothing else in the tier lmao), and mega audino is in most ways simply worse than clef and it takes up a mega slot, meaning it has huge opportunity cost in running it. Neither of these pokemon really have a place on any serious team and you end up at a disadvantage trying to beat the entire meta with a team slot wasted almost solely on checking hoopa; this disadvantage is to the extent where its pretty much worth just accepting that you autolose to well played hoopa rather than going to these extremes to beat it.
what?? i've been sitting by and reading bad arguments too long man
what do you mean Hoopa has a small niche? it's literally the best mon that's OU viable and there's literally no reason you shouldn't use it if you want to break through stall / balance with ease. It's obvious that Talonflame or Manaphy could run through Stall too, but they require a set amount of support and have to have any check / counter to them removed to even hope of 6-0'ing Stall itself. Hoopa requires so little support to destroy bulkier that it'd be a better alternative to other Stallbreakers nearly 9/10. Do you not realize that Manaphy is literally trash without a boost and it's incredibly pressured to do so, Talonflame needs Hazard Control and other support, etc, etc.
Do you not realize you're spamming Dark Pulse 99.99% of the time and more often than not something going to drop? It has no safe switch-in's in the entire meta and if you don't have counterplay you're done for
If you truly believe this you've lost your mind then.
Stop it with the ad hominem attacks, they are really grating. If you want to challenge what I'm saying, fine, but don't make this personal.
First off, literally nowhere did I say it has a small niche. Its an S-Rank for a reason.
Hoopa cant hope to 6-0 stall without significant team support, and if you spend all your time spamming dark pulse then mandibuzz and chansey go back to beating you, as does clefable, or... Hoopa is good because it can 2hko almaost anything with the proper predictions, not because it can just spam 1 move.
Hoopa-U isn't better 9/10 because it constantly needs to switch. Ko a mon? Immediately forced out, and that has consequences both for hoopa and for your team. Sure it can 2hko a lot, but its ohko's are rather fewer, so it has difficulty gaining non-se kills vs stall without taking damage. Up against chansey? Not only can they invest in more bulk to (mostly) ruin your 2hko, You have to use psyshock unless they have quite a bit of chip- and psyshock has quite a few switchins. Up against a Mega-Sableye? Dark pulse is obvious from a mile away. And if you don't hit that move, you run the risk of them deciding to sack the mon and then ending up being able to stay in. This isn't even getting into how wishtect mons like Chansey and Unaware Clef can make the prediction game far too easy.
The support isn't true, either- Hoopa-U wants (admittedly it isn't as neccesary as hazard removal for tflame) volt-turn really badly. Without it, Its merely average bulk leaves it pretty liable to being killed by non-special attacks, even from balance.
I'm not sure what the last paragraph is about, so I'm going to leave it. My apologies if its something important that I'm missing.
AV drapion and mega audino (assuming these are the counters you speak of) are not relevant enough counters to bring up, and they do not make hoopa u not broken. again im going to quote this part of the tiering policy thread where broken is being defined to make my point about this
Drapion lacks recovery making it a one time check to hoopa (not to mention that it checks like nothing else in the tier lmao), and mega audino is in most ways simply worse than clef and it takes up a mega slot, meaning it has huge opportunity cost in running it. Neither of these pokemon really have a place on any serious team and you end up at a disadvantage trying to beat the entire meta with a team slot wasted almost solely on checking hoopa; this disadvantage is to the extent where its pretty much worth just accepting that you autolose to well played hoopa rather than going to these extremes to beat it.
Those arent the only two (there are actually like 6 or 7 more, a few of which are a bit more viable/are less viable sets for good mons), but my point was that hoopa -is- counterable, even if the hoopa player plays perfectly. Since there were and are far too many people screaming about it being unbeatable without even trying (including the op, which lists it as having no true counters), I thought it was a good idea to bring them up as an option.
However, there is one mon that both absolutely counters all* Hoopa-U sets after rocks while being generally viable:
Diancie(mega)
In its nonmega form, it can live any hit, and proceed to mega evolve behind protect and/or smack the switchin. It ohko's 100% of the time after rocks (which seems to be able to be taken for granted, as most hoopa calcs include them (if not it ohko's 75% of the time)), has unquestionable viability, and can switch in on dark pulse, thunderbolt, and even psyshock half the time even post mega. Furthermore, its low hp means that even clefable can wishpass to it. While it does require prediction to stop the opponent from taking advantage of its slower nonmega speed/turn behind protect, it forces Hoopa to choose between taking another round of of hazards damage while exposing its teammates/letting diancie set up or to die.
*non hyperspace hole/energy ball, but those are bad
Stop it with the ad hominem attacks, they are really grating. If you want to challenge what I'm saying, fine, but don't make this personal.
First off, literally nowhere did I say it has a small niche. Its an S-Rank for a reason.
Hoopa cant hope to 6-0 stall without significant team support,
While I do agree some people need to be a little less aggressive and that aggression certainly isn't gonna put people on your side. However, I feel that the last part of this post is, to put it bluntly, extremely false. I'm assuming by "significant team support" you mean "any mon on your team that can occasionally switch in to allow Hoopa to switch moves." Many of the mons found on stall, Like amoongus and Slowbro, are just straight-up OHKOed (not to mention decent switchin opprotunities) by hoopa-U, meaning that, unlike some threats to stall, like manaphy. And no, Diance Mega is definitely not a counter. Is it a decent answer to Hoopa-U to have on your team? Yes. But counters can switch in, preferably more than once on any common move, and Stall it out or KO.
Not really a counter, escpecially since one can easily take advantage of a fairly obvious protect and proceed to switch out into a counter or even just a check.
Those arent the only two (there are actually like 6 or 7 more, a few of which are a bit more viable/are less viable sets for good mons), but my point was that hoopa -is- counterable, even if the hoopa player plays perfectly. Since there were and are far too many people screaming about it being unbeatable without even trying (including the op, which lists it as having no true counters), I thought it was a good idea to bring them up as an option.
However, there is one mon that both absolutely counters all* Hoopa-U sets after rocks while being generally viable:
Diancie(mega)
In its nonmega form, it can live any hit, and proceed to mega evolve behind protect and/or smack the switchin. It ohko's 100% of the time after rocks (which seems to be able to be taken for granted, as most hoopa calcs include them (if not it ohko's 75% of the time)), has unquestionable viability, and can switch in on dark pulse, thunderbolt, and even psyshock half the time even post mega. Furthermore, its low hp means that even clefable can wishpass to it. While it does require prediction to stop the opponent from taking advantage of its slower nonmega speed/turn behind protect, it forces Hoopa to choose between taking another round of of hazards damage while exposing its teammates/letting diancie set up or to die.
*non hyperspace hole/energy ball, but those are bad
Normal -> mega diancie only counters hoopa once because after it mega evolves it loses a ton of bulk. youre also ignoring the fact that it doesnt beat cb hyperspace fury hoopa which still exists even if its not the best set. And also, hoopa will just switch out if diancie comes out on it and doesnt do enough damage to cleanly 2hko. hoopa will also obviously not stay in after diancie megas, so your hoopa counter is gone and you accomplished nothing by taking that hit. so much for being a true counter.
Normal -> mega diancie only counters hoopa once because after it mega evolves it loses a ton of bulk. youre also ignoring the fact that it doesnt beat cb hyperspace fury hoopa which still exists even if its not the best set. And also, hoopa will just switch out if diancie comes out on it and doesnt do enough damage to cleanly 2hko. hoopa will also obviously not stay in after diancie megas obviously. so much for being a true counter.
While I do agree some people need to be a little less aggressive and that aggression certainly isn't gonna put people on your side. However, I feel that the last part of this post is, to put it bluntly, extremely false. I'm assuming by "significant team support" you mean "any mon on your team that can occasionally switch in to allow Hoopa to switch moves." Many of the mons found on stall, Like amoongus and Slowbro, are just straight-up OHKOed (not to mention decent switchin opprotunities) by hoopa-U, meaning that, unlike some threats to stall, like manaphy. And no, Diance Mega is definitely not a counter. Is it a decent answer to Hoopa-U to have on your team? Yes. But counters can switch in, preferably more than once on any common move, and Stall it out or KO.
Not really a counter, escpecially since one can easily take advantage of a fairly obvious protect and proceed to switch out into a counter or even just a check.
Amoongus is a bad switchin for hoopa-u because spore is a thing (also foul play), but thats a fair point.
As for the second part, check out the link above. Counters only need to be able to switch in on any attack and then win 100% of the time bar hax. Since Hoopa-U is slower than Mega Diancie, this means that Diancie is a one time counter and a battle-long check to Hoopa while still being viable on several playstyles. It most certainy is a counter to specs Hoopa-U, and can potentially switch in on Dark Pulse/Thunderbolt even post mega, adding an extra element of risk to using those attacks.
Also to clarify because I wans't clear: Hoopa-U doesn't need significant team support to function, but it does need significant team support if it wants to 6-0 stall. It'll still be a headache, but it isn't 6-0ing by itself.
i know what checks and counters are. im saying diancie is a trash counter because it takes so much from some of its moves that it has <30% of its health left which means your mega is now picked off by even the weakest priority, it can only switch in with rocks up one time max, and it still loses to hyperspace fury (note that the calc becomes a 2hko after rocks damage because rocks will likely be up if you arent leading diancie, and that you only calced for standard diancie--not mega the second turn (im also not sure where -2 defense is coming from on hoopa, but you used normal diancie in that calc too).
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 132-156 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
im not gonna bother posting the calcs of mdiancie ohkoing hoopa because its really a no brainer and irrelevant because it doesnt get the chance to attack anyways switching in.
