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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
- Thread starter alex
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<rant>
If you're going to bring something, please state it up front. This pisses me off like nothing else when you'd rather inflate your own ego instead of focus on the matter at hand. This is not a game to win/lose. The purpose of this thread is to consider various pokemon and create a stable and fun UU environment.
</rant>
Anyway, okay, so you whirlwind me out. Hypnosis is really a null argument as you can't do it while my sub is up. So at worst, you'd whirlwind me out. I'll admit this as a "disruption", similar to how roar suicune works in OU. However, it is still far from a true counter to walrein.
While we're on the subject of changing sets around to suit arguments, remember, you're still dealing with a specific set of a Pokemon and I have yet to explore the possibilities.
IE: Muk may be a counter to the classic stallrein, but what if instead I was running protect/ sub / Rock Slide / Earthquake walrein? Now neither Noctowl nor Muk would like to take a hit. Or Blizzard/Earthquake walrein?
Muk is still the best of the bunch you described, taking only a 3-hit KO (potentially 2-hit KO), but Walrein certainly breaks the sub and outspeeds him.
It looks like a stallrein, it plays like a stallrein, but for sure, every single stallrein counter/disruption listed so far (Noctowl, Toxicroak and Muk) will lose out, while Walrein still is quite a general player. Rock Slide / Earthquake is a type combination with few resists, and by definition any pokemon who attempts to soak up Toxic Spikes will be at least neutral earthquake, and most likely weak to it. Those who aren't would be grass/poison (weak to blizzard) or bug/poison... and Venomoth doesn't exactly have the best defenses on either side.
Rock Slide/Earthquake Stalrein deals with neither Noctowl nor Muk. Noctowl can Roost before Stalrein attacks leaving its unSTABBed attack useless and Muk has access to Curse and Acid Armor. Both of which it could use to great effect with Taunt, Sub and Focus Punch.
Of course, I don't know why Noctowl is even worth mentioning since you'll kill it faster with Blizzard or Ice Beam (hail STAB!).
Of course, I don't know why Noctowl is even worth mentioning since you'll kill it faster with Blizzard or Ice Beam (hail STAB!).
Hail doesn't increase the power of ice attacks, just the accuracy of Blizzard.
Muk is not a counter to the quake/blizzard set.
I mean, lets look at what Muk has to do.
1. Switch in. I'll give ya this, on most turns Walrein is sub/protecting, so Muk probably can get a free switch in.
2. Muk has to taunt. If Muk taunts, then Walrein 3-hit KO, and at very least Muk won't be able to substitute later to set up sub/punch. Obviously, if Walrein is known to be an earthquake varient, then Muk's best choice is Acid armor, else, it cannot beat walrein. Walrein will hit muk before the acid armor for 37.20% - 43.72% assuming max HP EVs. (252 EVs are already in Atk... according to foresty)
3. Walrein can then blizzard for 30% to 35% damage. There is a good chance Muk can't substitute after taking both a Blizzard and an Earthquake. Ironically, there is a chance that Muk dies to the hail if he substitutes this turn. (very small). 67% damage at the minimum at this point, so if I deal the magical 70% damage, you sub down to 5% health and die to hail :-p If you're above 75% damage, then you cannot sub.
4. Lets say the sub works, Muk uses focus punch, Walrein breaks muk's sub with blizzard.
5. Muk dies to blizzard.
Muk doesn't have enough time to even taunt, let alone kill Walrein.
I guess slide/quake walrein sucks then. Doesn't deal with muk or noctowl >_> Blizzard / quake time, lol. Thank god bronzong isn't in UU.
Muk is not a counter to the quake/blizzard set.
I mean, lets look at what Muk has to do.
1. Switch in. I'll give ya this, on most turns Walrein is sub/protecting, so Muk probably can get a free switch in.
2. Muk has to taunt. If Muk taunts, then Walrein 3-hit KO, and at very least Muk won't be able to substitute later to set up sub/punch. Obviously, if Walrein is known to be an earthquake varient, then Muk's best choice is Acid armor, else, it cannot beat walrein. Walrein will hit muk before the acid armor for 37.20% - 43.72% assuming max HP EVs. (252 EVs are already in Atk... according to foresty)
3. Walrein can then blizzard for 30% to 35% damage. There is a good chance Muk can't substitute after taking both a Blizzard and an Earthquake. Ironically, there is a chance that Muk dies to the hail if he substitutes this turn. (very small). 67% damage at the minimum at this point, so if I deal the magical 70% damage, you sub down to 5% health and die to hail :-p If you're above 75% damage, then you cannot sub.
4. Lets say the sub works, Muk uses focus punch, Walrein breaks muk's sub with blizzard.
5. Muk dies to blizzard.
Muk doesn't have enough time to even taunt, let alone kill Walrein.
I guess slide/quake walrein sucks then. Doesn't deal with muk or noctowl >_> Blizzard / quake time, lol. Thank god bronzong isn't in UU.
Can someone please explain to me how Entei even reaches BL? >_>
Yeah, but the moves it has doesn't follow into it's stats >_< I think it's probably the most crappiest legend they made :P (excluding Phione)
Sorry to change the subject, but how did Articuno/Moltres get into BL? With Stealth Rock as common as it is and Stone Edge lurking around (as well as Azumaill) Moltres and Articuno have some serious problems. Not to mention Moltres has crappy defenses and Articuno has too many weaknesses, not to mention it doesn't have enough power. Sheer Cold is banned from most tournaments, thus negating Articuno's usefulness. I think it should be moved to UU, as well as Moltres.
I think this has probably been brought up already, but since no one has bothered to edit the tier lists I though I may as well revive it.
I think this has probably been brought up already, but since no one has bothered to edit the tier lists I though I may as well revive it.
Moltres is actually awesome. I watched my brother's Choice Specs Moltres destroy a Blissey that was on 77% health. Two Overheats put it down. Then consider that Air Slash is a 2HKO on Gyarados and Salamence and pick a Hidden Power of your choice. U-Turn to use that sexy base 100 attack for scouting purposes. Will-o-Wisp, SolarBeam, AncientPower as possible options as well. UU? You gotta be kidding.
Articuno whilst not as good I admit, is still a solid wall with 95/100/125 defences, Roost, Reflect, Roar, Heal Bell, Haze, Toxic and a STAB Ice Beam from 95 Base Special Attack when it's called upon.
Finally Entei, who was discussed earlier is way too much for UU. Calm Minds backed up by 115 HP, 100 Speed and with a 115 Attack Stone Edge to deal with those that resist Lava Plume/Hidden Power is pretty beastly.
I'm sure we're all to smart to be blinded by the "legendary" label, but base stats still need to be considered, and it's not as if any of them struggle to pick four moves either. So if they have great stats and a usable movepool, what makes them UU? Their typing? That never bothered anyone else; look at Tyranitar. He never let his shitty typing hold him back.
Articuno whilst not as good I admit, is still a solid wall with 95/100/125 defences, Roost, Reflect, Roar, Heal Bell, Haze, Toxic and a STAB Ice Beam from 95 Base Special Attack when it's called upon.
Finally Entei, who was discussed earlier is way too much for UU. Calm Minds backed up by 115 HP, 100 Speed and with a 115 Attack Stone Edge to deal with those that resist Lava Plume/Hidden Power is pretty beastly.
I'm sure we're all to smart to be blinded by the "legendary" label, but base stats still need to be considered, and it's not as if any of them struggle to pick four moves either. So if they have great stats and a usable movepool, what makes them UU? Their typing? That never bothered anyone else; look at Tyranitar. He never let his shitty typing hold him back.
In UU, Moltres has a LOT of speed and power. Specs Overheat or Fire Blast will heavily dent any Grumpig and most likely destroy Hypno, while HP Grass can deal heavy damage to any water types trying to take the fire hit. Actually, with Sunny Day Moltres can do both of those at once and have the more powerful Solarbeam to work with. Heck, even if resisted Fire Blast/Overheat will do a massive amount of damage.
Articuno is more UU-viable, IMO. Unlike Moltres, it's going to be switching in and out a lot to take hits, so Stealth Rock is a huge obstacle for it. Many pokemon are capable of doing more than 50% damage to it in 2 turns, so it's not that powerful. It still is a very strong wall if provided with Rapid Spin support, though. IMO, Articuno could definitely be considered for UU, but I can see reasons for it to be BL.
Tyranitar has a massive amount of advantages to make up for his typing.
Articuno is more UU-viable, IMO. Unlike Moltres, it's going to be switching in and out a lot to take hits, so Stealth Rock is a huge obstacle for it. Many pokemon are capable of doing more than 50% damage to it in 2 turns, so it's not that powerful. It still is a very strong wall if provided with Rapid Spin support, though. IMO, Articuno could definitely be considered for UU, but I can see reasons for it to be BL.
Tyranitar has a massive amount of advantages to make up for his typing.
There are plenty of Stealth Rockers in UU. The Nidoking/queen, Clefable, (maybe) gligar, sudowoodo, Torkoal (aka Forretress of UU), Claydol, etc. etc
Moltres got a HUGE motherfucking boost this gen, he's got speed and power, with good spinning support.
I'm sorry but how can noctowl get rid of Walrein? Sure you roar, but that puts you at -1 priority. He protects, scouts it, then blizzards you.
I'm sorry but how can noctowl get rid of Walrein? Sure you roar, but that puts you at -1 priority. He protects, scouts it, then blizzards you.
OMG!! I agree with you about Articuno, because it has a bad type, bad moves, bad all... but Moltres this gen is a killer!! It has enough Special Attacks to use a Choice Specs set. If it was in UU, it would use Sunny Day without problem, and then sweep with Flamethrower/Solar Beam/Air Slash.
It also gets WoW, Roost, Overheat... a beast.
Well, I didn't want to say that, sorry. It has good stats, as all the legendaries, but with this type, it can't stand hits. That's why I said that.
Hey!Why insult Pinsir?(Page 17)
It can survive moves heracross can't,bulk ups,has better defense,and same attack,plus same base speed.The only thing that separates them are typing,and Heracross having slightly higher special defense.
Pinsir has Close combat(Right?),X-Scissor,Earthquake,Stone Edge,Bulk Up,Aerial Ace,and a bunch of other stuff.I personally think it should be up in BL.
It can tear up tons of stuff after a bulk up or 2.Then kill everything with Close Combat,Stone Edge,and earthquake at its side.
It can survive moves heracross can't,bulk ups,has better defense,and same attack,plus same base speed.The only thing that separates them are typing,and Heracross having slightly higher special defense.
Pinsir has Close combat(Right?),X-Scissor,Earthquake,Stone Edge,Bulk Up,Aerial Ace,and a bunch of other stuff.I personally think it should be up in BL.
It can tear up tons of stuff after a bulk up or 2.Then kill everything with Close Combat,Stone Edge,and earthquake at its side.
Sorry if this is changing the subject, but how come Mamoswine doesn't appear anywhere in the OU or BL section?
I think it deserves OU status. Adamant with Scarf allow it to rip through stuff like nobody's buisness. And it's defenses aren't bad as well. It can tank hits pretty decently. Ice/Ground is actually a pretty decent moveset combo as it can hit a lot of stuff for neutral.
I think it deserves OU status. Adamant with Scarf allow it to rip through stuff like nobody's buisness. And it's defenses aren't bad as well. It can tank hits pretty decently. Ice/Ground is actually a pretty decent moveset combo as it can hit a lot of stuff for neutral.
Yeah, we can't turn a pokemon from BL into OU with discussion. Only the popularity of a pokemon can really do that... Not to mention, thats off topic.
Whether it is good or not, Mamoswine is not seen in the typical battle. On the other hand, you should always have a plan for Blissey (an OU pokemon).
Whether it is good or not, Mamoswine is not seen in the typical battle. On the other hand, you should always have a plan for Blissey (an OU pokemon).
With pinsir in UU who is a pretty good counter to whenever Cacturne uses sucker punch or seed bomb... I don't see a big problem with cacturne. It has a clear counter and is pretty slow.
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