Resource ORAS OU Metagame Discussion

[Punchshroom]

Volcanion talk eh? Time to offer my 2 cents.

Volcanion is an interesting holepuncher, whose most problematic qualities being its main attacks are all powerful and have a chance to inflict status (namely Steam Eruption, Fire Blast, and Sludge Bomb), which helps a lot when it comes to wearing down solid checks. It's also a great offensive check to both Belly Drum Azumarill and bulky Mega Scizor, which can be extremely valuable for offensive teams.

With that said, that's kind of where Volcanion's really good qualities start to dwindle. While Volcanion's coverage isn't terrible, it really needs a power boost such as Choice Specs or Life Orb, or its lackluster coverage really starts to show as the likes of Latios, Keldeo, Rotom-W, can stay out of 2HKO range much more easily. Also, as a holepuncher that suffers from low Speed, no priority, no recovery, entry hazard weakness, and an arguably exploitable defensive typing, it doesn't look to have very good longevity and thus its impact in games can be limited. These traits also invalidates the idea of a more defensive Volcanion (I'd probably be running Tentacruel to stop the things defensive Volcanion would at this point), so I'd probably scrap that idea.

Here's some of my Volcanion set ideas:

Volcanion @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 72 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Modest Nature
- Steam Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Bomb
- Earth Power

This set's investment is taken directly from I'm Rick Astley's spread, with enough Speed to outrun Modest Magnezone and Jolly Azumarill and creep defensive Lando-Ts, and just enough bulk to survive CB Azu's Superpower after Stealth Rock. Sludge Bomb is Volcanion's most consistent 3rd attack since it allows Volcanion to check Azu at all as well as smack Mega Altaria, and the 30% Poison chance is favorable for softening up Fire + Water resists; I don't know why Rick Astley is debating about Sludge Wave as if he is worrying about Chesnaught, but what kind of Chesnaught switches into a Volcanion? I didn't find HP Grass particularly necessary since the only real targets it hits that the other moves have no chance at 2HKOing were Gastrodon and Seismitoad, which can be collectively covered with a single teammate (obviously preferably a Grass-type). Instead I opted for Earth Power, which hits things like Dragalge, Tentacruel, and defensive Mega Ampharos, while also allowing it to soft check opposing Volcanions.

Volcanion @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 72 HP / 8 Atk / 4 Def / 244 SpA / 180 Spe
Rash Nature
- Steam Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Bomb
- Superpower

While Specs is much better suited for punching sizable chunks into offensive and bulky offense teams, Life Orb's ability to switch moves is more suited to cracking open balance and stall teams. Although truth be told, the only real reason I considered LO over Specs is because of its access to Superpower which can dent Chansey; in fact the EV spread is accommodated mostly with Chansey in mind.

244+ SpA Life Orb Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 133-156 (20.7 - 24.2%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 133-156 (20.7 - 24.2%)

0 Atk Life Orb Volcanion Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 322-380 (50.1 - 59.1%)
8 Atk Life Orb Volcanion Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 325-385 (50.6 - 59.9%)

This damage difference may not seem like much as the 2nd Superpower won't KO Chansey either way, but keep in mind that if Chansey switches into Steam Eruption + SR and gets burned, it'll be at ~50.8%, and you definitely want to give Chansey the lowest chances of Softboiling your Superpowers away.

 

[Ziaf999]

Punchshroom I noticed you listed Sludge Bomb instead of Sludge Wave (and I've also seen other people use sets involving Sludge Bomb even while Sludge Wave is available on the Pokemon in question). Is the increased extra poison chance worth giving up 5 damage?

 

[Punchshroom]

Punchshroom I noticed you listed Sludge Bomb instead of Sludge Wave (and I've also seen other people use sets involving Sludge Bomb even while Sludge Wave is available on the Pokemon in question). Is the increased extra poison chance worth giving up 5 damage?

Absolutely, since Sludge Bomb snags all the OHKOes/2HKOes that Sludge Wave does while having more merit against foes that survive the attack. Literally the one instance I'd recommend Sludge Wave over Sludge Bomb on your Volcanion is if you were a Leftovers variant that wants to check BD Azumarill [252+ SpA Volcanion Sludge Wave vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 274-324 (75.2 - 89%)], but since I don't recommend Volcanion without a power-boosting item, this point is kind of moot.

In fact, I feel Sludge Bomb is a notable part of what makes Volcanion annoying to switch into; opponents have to worry about frequent burn chances and poison chances when dealing with Volcanion, reducing their ability to check it.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I honestly think it'll just pop up more lum berry set-up dragon pokemon, starmies, and the just brings back current threats honestly.

I do like that can be punch holes in some stall with burns and I'm not sure if I would want to use knock off on it if I switched in on it cause its coverage is good enough so most won't have 2 pokemon that won't take neutral damage.

I just don't want it bringing sucron up a tier, it's my least favorite stall mon

 

[MANNAT]

Just wondering, what's your guys' opinion on tang? It's a really nice blanket check for physical waters while still checking keld decently well and threatening its check with lures like rock slide and earthquake and can also threaten shit with the powder moves which is really nice.

 

[Gary]

Lol at people who think Volc wont be that good. Are you fucking joking? I don't think some of you people understand how absolutely retarded Steam Eruption is as a move. This move alone would make Volc a pretty big threat regardless of its great typing and incredible ability to go along with it. We already know how difficult it is to switch into Scalds from Specs Keldeo, and that's mostly because of the burn chance. Now imagine giving Keldeo the ability to abuse Hydro Pump and Scald at the same time with practically no drawbacks (95% accuracy is not going to be missing often). The only Pokemon that will comfortably want to switch into Volc are Mega Latias (who still hates being burned and makes it bigger Pursuit bait), Chansey, and Water Absorb Pokemon like Gastro which gets bopped by HP Grass and Jellicent which gets bopped by Pursuit. Goodra fucking sucks.

I don't understand why people are acting like Volc is gonna struggle because it can't reliably beat bulky Water-types. I mean, what bulky Water-types in this tier want to get burned AND can really touch Volc? Slowking is like the only bulky Water I can really see being able to stomach a hit from this thing, shrug off a burn, and still proceed to set up on it. Slowbro can kind of beat it 1v1 with CM, but it can't switch in, and HP Grass will 2HKO it regardless. Suicune may be able to set up on it, but the most it can do is PP stall it all the way until it has to struggle and kill itself, which isn't very optimal, because it gives something else a free switch in anyway. Manaphy can't even OHKO it with +3 Energy Ball. Rotom-W is 2HKOed by all of its moves after Rocks and can only Volt Switch out on it. Azu dies to Sludge and can't reliably switch into Steam nor does it have anything good to hit it with outside of spamming Superpower. Lol defensive Starmie.

It's not going to be as ridiculous as Hoopa-U obviously when it comes to risk/reward scenarios, but it's just so easy for it to come in and spam Steam Eruption especially with how the metagame is slowing down and becoming bulkier, which gives Volc a LOT more free switch-ins. But the big difference between the two wallbreakers, is that unlike Hoopa, Volc is actually splashable and has very good defensive qualities on top of its amazing offensive capabilities. It's a great check to a ton of things that lots of teams struggle against such as Azu, Mega Gard, Mega Sableye, Clef, and Mega Scizor, and its ability lets it check Choiced Waters as well as deterring the spamming of Scald, or else it could allow Volc a free switch-in.

Overall, while Volc is slow as fuck and has a weakness to Stealth Rock, it looks like it's going to be a very splashable bulky wallbreaker that is practically impossible to reliably switch into, so I can't really see why this thing wont be a top tier threat or at least something that every team MUST prepare for.

#bringbackbulkyDragonite

 

[Lemon Ginger]

Volcanion is certainly threatening, but it's not like it has no switchin.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: (32.4 - 38.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

Pressure also means steam eruption is gone real quickly.

Just watch rest Talk leftovers with scald/fireblast will be the dominant set once people are over spamming specs steam eruption.

Too much theory monning for my taste, though

 

[Backstreet Bummer]

To be honest I see where youre coming from, but there are enough bulky waters that can stop it, despite what you said above. Suicune stops it dead as previously mentioned, and jellicent does a decent job too. Tentacruel can run black sludge with poison heal to stop the burn being an issue, and can nail it with sludge bomb.

 

[Seth_]

Overall, while Volc is slow as fuck and has a weakness to Stealth Rock, it looks like it's going to be a very splashable bulky wallbreaker that is practically impossible to reliably switch into, so I can't really see why this thing wont be a top tier threat or at least something that every team MUST prepare for.

Yeah, no one doubts it will be good, but it has huge competition in this tier like kyurem who can run mixed, hoopa-c which is not as powerful as hoopa-u but also has 0 switch ins, some amazing megas like gardevoir, medicham and manaphy. All of them have better coverage since it's best move to hit dragons hp ice (kinda lol) but you want hp grass for slowbro and others.

Now we see a lot sand ofence, band terrakions, tyranitars, SD garchomps, latis and rotoms. All of them are pretty good against volcanion so I don't think that it will have THAT huge impact.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Thing is it'll be choice locked weak to rocks and lum berry set-up dragons will be it's bane.

Also there are going to be things released as we debate it's possible ban. Thunder Gengar will come from gen 1 trade overs in sun/moon

 

[Seth Vilo]

Thing is it'll be choice locked weak to rocks and lum berry set-up dragons will be it's bane.

Also there are going to be things released as we debate it's possible ban. Thunder Gengar will come from gen 1 trade overs in sun/moon

I totally agree that set-up Lum Dragons, or even Lum Waters like the ancient Chesto-Rest Kingdra or Lum Gyara, will be a nuisance to Volcanion. However, it'd be Choice locked into a monstrous STAB move with great coverage. I tried to make a Defensive Gyarados set (more specifically, to revive my old RestTalk DD Mega Gyarados set into this metagame) that could reliably switch into the thing, and the amount of special bulk you have to invest to not only live the Steam Eruption, but possible Rocks the subsequent burn as well is huge. I'm looking forward to using Volcanion as both a Specs user, and try out defensive sets. But I'm also afraid of it. Dragons and Fairies will rule more than they do already with Volc around. #ZygardesRise

Also, not to be that guy, but Gengar can already learn Thunder.

 

[bludz]

This is all sorta theorymon at this point but I don't really see why Suicune is being classified as an answer to Volcanion. It can't touch Volcanion with its STAB and in OU it actually never runs an attacking move that isn't Scald. This means in order to beat Volcanion it's going to require some wonky Rest / Calm Mind / Scald / Toxic type of set, which sounds really suboptimal for just about every other scenario (if you don't think it's suboptimal, why isn't this a set now?).

One thing people have kinda overlooked is that Volcanion sorta has Landorus-T syndrome where it checks itself. This means Volcanion usage leads to more Volcanion usage - your best Steam Eruption switch-in is gonna be your Steam Eruption abuser, most likely. Not sure exactly how healthy this all is but I do like AM's point about how it may bring Rain back to being more viable which is kinda cool. I think it's gonna influence the meta in a pretty big way.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

>walking home
>check smogons
>sees bludz posted
>furiously rushes to like his post

Hehe, jokes aside I'm really interested in how the metagame will adapt. Does it have no counter? It's seemingly immensely hard to switch into, maybe harder than Keldeo. But Lati@s seem like offensive checks, so is the various ground types in the tier.

Volcaninon alone will probably crush all hopes of Azu being S rank, finally!

 

[HailFall]

I doubt it would have no counters as basically every defensive water witha secondary coverage move checks it soundly. We haven't even gotten it yet so it's probably best not to make a ton of assumptions but it seems like something that sounds a lot more threatening on paper than it is in practice. Latis can switch into specs steam eruption and ohko after rocks. Burn chance is annoying but it's not the end of the world. I can see gastro, slowking, and maybe even poliwrath picking up usage, as well as Latias because it has more bulk + HW for burned mons, but its probably not gonna totally flip the metagame on its head. It's another threat and definitely worth preparing for, though.

 

[Martin]

Honestly Suicune and Jellicent will probably rise in usage when this gets released, because Pressure+Steam Eruption resistance is really useful (Cune ain't an answer to it but it can make it run out of Steam Eruptions quickly) and Jellicent benefits from a lot of current trends anyway (see: Keldeo and Spikes getting better) with Volcanion being the icing on the cake. Gastro and Seismi get blown back by HP Grass whereas SpD Jellicent... well, see for yourself:

Hide

88 speed Jelly:

• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Jellicent: 162-192 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Jellicent: 60-71 (14.8 - 17.5%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

44 speed Jelly:

• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Jellicent: 156-184 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Jellicent: 156-184 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Max/Max Jelly:

• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 150-178 (37.1 - 44%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 56-66 (13.8 - 16.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever

 

[jeropinu]

Im 1800 points on the ladder and i cant play hyper offense cause i get fucked up by stall. Its litterally imposible to break a stall team even though im running raindance manaphy. you cant lay hazards and cant fucking break quagsire. Stall litterally destroy ho its impossible to win against a competent opponent in that matchup

 

[jeropinu]

scald in rain blows quag back to fuck.

yeah cause a competent player lets his quag against manaphy

 

[Thatwackycruton]

What else is stopping manaphy from just blowing back the rest of stall?

 

[baddummy]

As somebody who has a pretty black and white view of how matchup based different styles are, I thought I'd try and help fix this problem.

Currently there are a couple of stallish builds running around on the ladder:
Sable/Skarm/Chans/Amoon/Quag/Weavile is a common one. This gets wrecked by Tail Glow/Scald/Ice Beam/Rain Dance Manaphy, so you could try that specific set. Magma Storm/Solar Beam/Taunt Tran wrecks it too. Personally, I've been using CM Manaphy, Heracross, and Taunt Wisp Talon, so that with scalds and wisps I can generally spread burns around while being able to soak up status with Manaphy, then use Rain Dance to get rid of it. Skarm usually runs counter from what I can see, so it's easier to take advantage of then you might think.

Wonder trio, Sab/Dugtrio/Shed/Seismitoad/Talon/Togekiss. If you can pursuit trap Shed then Manaphy works here too, although obviously you're dedicating another team slot for that purpose. Heracross works here too, although it can't come in really. Generally it is weak to hard hitting physical attackers that don't mind Dugtrio. So basically, Earth plate Lando-T, Mega Pinsir, BD Azu should be able to pick a kill at least, and Diggersby works too. Waterfall Mega Gyara wrecks this team.

A friend of mine, and a true ladder hero, has been running LO Knock Lando T, and Magnezone, which traps Skarm on the first team after shed shell has been knocked off, and then overwhelms it. For what it is worth, when I'm building for the ladder one of the first things I try and figure out is how can I take on whatever the popular version of Sab stall is at the time. The current ladder is kind of in a confused state at the moment, where because the verdict on Hoopa-U is undecided, people don't know exactly what they should run, and just to what extent they should prepare for bulky teams as opposed to full on hyper offence. As it is, I've prepared for the former more so than the latter. If you can fit Ice Beam on your Manaphy set easily, you've got 1 of the stall builds down. The smartest move is probably to wait until we get the results of the suspect test, and then build accordingly.

 

[Martin]

Wonder Trio literally gets 6:0'd by Nasty Plot Togekiss, so that's also a good one to bring. Seriously once they've got a Nasty Plot up it might as well just click X 'cause it has literally nothing to stop it.

 

[jeropinu]

so you are saying that the only way to beat those teams is by bringing specific pokemon with specific sets rather than through outplaying and outsmarting your opponents.

 

[Taliheim]

No, those just have good matchups.

Technically, any competent team can break through stall. This article is old and geared towards GSC, and therefore missing stuff like Taunt, Unaware, and Regenerator, but still holds the core concepts needed: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/part-5-how-to-play-with-stalls.84449/

 

[Gary]

Yeah, no one doubts it will be good, but it has huge competition in this tier like kyurem who can run mixed, hoopa-c which is not as powerful as hoopa-u but also has 0 switch ins, some amazing megas like gardevoir, medicham and manaphy. All of them have better coverage since it's best move to hit dragons hp ice (kinda lol) but you want hp grass for slowbro and others.

Now we see a lot sand ofence, band terrakions, tyranitars, SD garchomps, latis and rotoms. All of them are pretty good against volcanion so I don't think that it will have THAT huge impact.

I also don't know why people are acting like Hoopa-C is even somewhat of a good replacement for Hoopa-U if it gets banned. Hoopa-C isn't so low on the VR just because it's outclassed, but also because there are quite a lot of things going against it in current meta. While it may not be 4x weak to U-turn, it's 4x weak to Pursuit, meaning that any Pursuit trapper will be able to kill it regardless of whether it switches out or not, where Unbound could still play mindgames and afford staying in on Pursuits especially at full health. It's also not versatile considering that its Attack stat isn't worth investing in, so it can really only run one decent set and that's Specs. OTR is ass, there's too much strong priority in the tier and unlike Reuniclus which is arguably better, it has a useful ability and piss poor bulk so it gets worn down very easily. It's slower Speed is also an issue too, as it misses out on things like Heatran, which was practically another free Unbound Dark Pulse.

So yeah with less bulk, less power, less Speed, more exploitable weaknesses, and significantly less versatility, I really don't see Hoopa-C making an impact at all. There are far better wallbreakers out there, and Volcanion will no question will be the one giving Hoopa competition.

Tbh a lot of the same shit that you're saying gives Volc problems gave Hoopa-U problems as well, but it still managed to be very successful at wallbreaking. Yes it doesn't have nearly as great of coverage or versatility, but it still doesn't really like offense that much. Still, even Hoopa-U wishes it had a move like Steam Eruption lol, as it literally requires zero prediction. It's all about how you get it in and predict, because nothing on offense will be able to switch into Volc, even Latios as it's taking well over half from its moves + burn sucks. Rotom-W is practically a free switch-in for Volc hello? All it can do is Volt on out and it's taking like 47% min from Steam Eruption or Fire Blast. Volc also doesn't take up a mega slot and will form really good cores with other wallbreakers such as Mega Gard because it can break down Steels and Fire-types with ease, while Gard destroys Dragons and bulky waters. I'm still not seeing how this wont make an impact lol, theorymoning or not just looking at how the meta is shifting towards bulky offence, Volc just fits so perfectly on teams as an amazing offensive Fairy check as well as yet another mindless wallbreaker. It doesn't have much competition at all really, it's a very unique Pokemon that isn't JUST useful for its wallbreaking.

Thank god this thing doesn't get Calm Mind :O

 

[Seth_]

It's slower Speed is also an issue too, as it misses out on things like Heatran, which was practically another free Unbound Dark Pulse.

Tell me what heatran does back to hoopa-c.

Still, even Hoopa-U wishes it had a move like Steam Eruption lol

And there is even better move in this game it is Sacred Fire. I still don't see entei in OU, probably becausee it's nasty weakness to rocks.

even Latios as it's taking well over half from its moves + burn sucks.

Let's sum up.

1. Lati@s takes 43% max
2. Lati@s retaliate with almost guarantee OHKO after rocks or even spikes
3. Lati@s can heal up, Volcanion can't
4. Volcanion can switch only 4 times if there are rocks up and with spikes it is only worse
5. Even if there is 30% chance to burn it is only 30%

Lati is very popular mon right now and it's calcs are based on its most common set. If you will you can even tailor EVs or moveset it becomes even better. It's looks like it is counter.

Rotom-W is practically a free switch-in for Volc hello?

When did I say so?

Of course Volcanion will be good but it has same checks as other major threats like keldeo, heatran so I don't see

 

[Martin]

Tell me what heatran does back to hoopa-c.

And there is even better move in this game it is Sacred Fire. I still don't see entei in OU, probably becausee it's nasty weakness to rocks.

Let's sum up.

1. Lati@s takes 43% max
2. Lati@s retaliate with almost guarantee OHKO after rocks or even spikes
3. Lati@s can heal up, Volcanion can't
4. Volcanion can switch only 4 times if there are rocks up and with spikes it is only worse
5. Even if there is 30% chance to burn it is only 30%

Lati is very popular mon right now and it's calcs are based on its most common set. If you will you can even tailor EVs or moveset it becomes even better. It's looks like it is counter.

When did I say so?

Of course Volcanion will be good but it has same checks as other major threats like keldeo, heatran so I don't see

Hey guess what?

Pokémon have weaknesses

And its not as if Volcanion doesn't pair ultra well with fairies or anything, and they literally blow troublesome dragons away.

You act as if its Volcanion v.s. 6 'mons, but Volcanion has 5 teammates to cover its weaknesses. It can be paired with things which share checks and break them down easily, it can be paired with Pursuit trappers to stop stuff like Latios in their tracks, and if it gets a burn or Latios switches in on rocks then Latios is either forced to Roost (giving a free switch for a teammate) or can't come in a second time if it Dracos, Defogs or doubles expecting a Tar/Bisharp switch-in or something. Volcanion has won the matchup on the basis that its check can no longer switch in on it. Fat waters giving you trouble? Magma+SBeam Tran can lure and trap them and proceed to Solar Beam them. Goodbye switch-in, and its not even like Heatran has bad synergy or is un-splashable with Volc (in fact, its probably one of its best partners due to the offensive synergy).

Volcanion is good, Steam Eruption is retardedly good and a lot of trends are shifting in its favor as the meta is getting slower and more BO rather than HO.