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Resource ORAS OU Metagame Discussion

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Oh god the best, most broken type in the game is about to receive the perfect partner. Oh dear god save our souls...
Seriously Game Freak why balance out the broken Dragon-type by adding an even more borked type to check it D:

On a more serious note yeah I'm actually really scared of teams carrying multiple fairies in the Volcanion metagame, because Volcanion beats literally every notable Steel-type in the game, which is an extremely scary prospect.

If that's the case, we might see Excadrill rise even more while Mega Metagross start using Thunder Punch / Earthquake which OHKOes 0 HP / 0 Def variants after Rocks.

However, I think we're just theorymonning at this point so let's move on to another topic.

I've been seeing a lot of Nasty Plot Thundurus-I lately while Manaphy seems to have disappeared completely. Perhaps it's due to people hyping up Mega Slowbro but +3 Energy Ball still hurts a lot so I'm thinking that it's because people simply punish it very hard if it stays in and revenge kills it afterwards. Plus, more passive mons now carry Thunder Wave which discourages set-up.

As for Hoopa-C, I personally used it and didn't really like it much. Sure, it hits very hard with Specs but it's 4x weak to Dark which means it doesn't create as many mind games as Hoopa-U. Plus, the Offensive stats aren't as scary and it doesn't have Hyperspace Fury to spam. Finally, base 70 means things it wants to hit like Mew can outpace it with 152 Spe EVs and OHKO with Knock Off. Being outsped by Breloom, Bisharp, etc. (if you run Modest) isn't fun either. Perhaps I'm using it wrongly but I'm underwhelmed with it.

Speaking of Ghost-types, Gengar has gotten a bit worse lately because of the popularity of Mega Alakazam and the fact that Pursuit seems to be on every team. Chople Ttar / Scarf Ttar and other Pursuit users means Gengar normally takes out 1 mon before it gets removed entirely.
 
grassy terrain also has one more effect which is weakening all ground-type moves

It only halves the damage of EQ (and magnitude/bulldoze), so your raikou's still got to watch out for earth powers and stray HP grounds

Oh god the best, most broken type in the game is about to receive the perfect partner. Oh dear god save our souls...
Seriously Game Freak why balance out the broken Dragon-type by adding an even more borked type to check it D:

On a more serious note yeah I'm actually really scared of teams carrying multiple fairies in the Volcanion metagame, because Volcanion beats literally every notable Steel-type in the game, which is an extremely scary prospect.

#bringbackaegislash
 
After observing the many speculation posts and OM Laddering some weeks back, Choice Specs is going to be the most viable set Volcanion can run. Then you've got the effective, just not as good mixed Orb set which is okay, and finally the more hipster Berry and Tank sets in an attempt to use it for defensive qualities.

First off, I don't think Volcanion is going to be that good and not ban worthy at all. I'm not going to get too many agreements on that. Essentially it'll be another Hoopa-U that has switch-in's. In the beginning people will want to be different and use Orb sets, Berry Sets, Defensive Wisp sets, ect. They won't be good. The Orb set of course will be what everyone uses until Specs starts to see a lot of use when they're sick of using bad sets. I've used Orb on the OM Ladder and it just sucked even with Water Absorb somewhat increasing longevity. A Stealth Rock weakness and exploitable speed isn't going to make it broken. We all know that slow + LO + SR weakness is just terrible for an Orb attacker and it doesn't make use of it's sexy defense. I will say though that a mixed set is scarf to face since not much can come in safe.

In terms of it's defensive qualities, RestTalk sucks and if you're going for Tank, offensive is how you should roll with you speed creeping some thing and investing what's left in HP. Not having any form of recovery whatsoever that doesn't come off the off chance of running into a Water attack is risky, but then again having it in the back really discourages things from spamming Scald.

Then we have Choice Specs. Choice Specs is again, the best set you can run. The sheer power behind this thing is monstrous and I won't bombard you with calcs due to everyone already doing that, hahaha. It's movepool is kinda shallow, but it's got everything it needs in Steam Eruption / Fire Blast / Sludge Bomb / HP Grass which as I'm Rick Astley said is basically it's best bet for insane coverage. The spread is also on point too if you really want it to be a check to Azumarill since I deduce more Azumarill will be running Superpower to smite it.

In a nutshell Volcanion will be an awesome wallbreaker with some nice splashability in it's typing. Will it create huge metagame shifts? Possibly. But I'm sure it will if were going to have to stomach Specs Steam Eruptions and Fire Blasts every 3 games.
 
The point of tanky sets is to take advantage of its unique defensive typing and natural bulk. Not every defensive mon needs recovery and the point of fatter sets is that it's a pivot that frustrates steels and threatens to burn switchins. It has decent defensive utility checking quite a few a+ rank threats while maintaining decent offensive presence. I don't really see anything "hipster" about that.
 
Defense is more of a spectrum than a strict definition.

On the far left, you've got your super walls - cresselia and the like. Sports both instant recovery and strong bulk on both sides.

In shallow left you have blanket stuff - think slowbro/chansey. They're meant to take most hits from one side of the attacking spectrum, recover it off as no big deal.
Mixed walls such as Hippowdon can fit here too. Like the super walls, but not as much bulk and can be overwhelmed by some stronger attacks.

In shallow right you have reactive stuff - volcanion would fall here, with stuff like AV torn-T, azu. Meant to pivot into certain attacks in order to gain momentum, not to wall. Sometimes have no recovery, usually only Leftovers, but Regenerator and draining attacks are also seen.

In the far right you have offensive immunities - weavile, talonflame, the like. Usually has low bulk, but has one or more type immunities to potentially get a free switch on.

So volcanion would be taking advantage of its Water immunity and Fire, Fairy, and Steel resistances to get opportunities to come in and send off a hydroscald or fire blast. Leftovers will probably be seen a decent amount to abuse that and to somewhat mitigate its Stealth Rock weakness, it already hits decently hard.

Specs is getting a lot of hype but I honestly see it losing traction when it comes out. Its coverage is a big part of it, and its decently slow without any recovery or priority. Its low speed, lack of priority, and rocks weakness will probably ward off LO sets, so I'm seeing mostly offensive tank sets, although scarf/specs will probably be used enough to mention, like scarftran. Though in this bulky meta, I can see specs appealing to a lot of people and probably a bit better than I'm giving it credit for.
 
I've seen a lot of bulky Starmie sets as of recent, and I don't understand why anyone would use a Starmie that can't outspeed Gengar. I'm sure it does lots of things really well, but why run a set that always loses to a very common spinblocker that it is capable of beating?
 
I've seen a lot of bulky Starmie sets as of recent, and I don't understand why anyone would use a Starmie that can't outspeed Gengar. I'm sure it does lots of things really well, but why run a set that always loses to a very common spinblocker that it is capable of beating?
Because most people won't switch in Gengar on starmie, also reflect type starmie is really great as it can beat mons like bisharp, ferrothorn and Venusaur while still threatening Keldeo.
 
It's just so ironic that Volcanion is probably gonna be it's own worst enemy since it's prevents it from spamming it's stab attacks. And while Earth Power is awesome coverage against opposing Volcanion's it's not that difficult to pair it with something that has a ground immunity like Rotom-W. That is at least my biggest gripe with choiced Volcanion as I think Volcanion would really benefit from being able to switch moves in unfavorable matchups. But choiced Volcanion are still sexy as hell and I recall Scarf Volcanion's Steam Eruption hitting about as hard as Specs Keldeo's Scald which is a scary power for a Scarfer and Specs is scary as hell unless your name is Chansey.
I've seen a lot of bulky Starmie sets as of recent, and I don't understand why anyone would use a Starmie that can't outspeed Gengar. I'm sure it does lots of things really well, but why run a set that always loses to a very common spinblocker that it is capable of beating?
Gengar isn't what I'd call super common and some team try to preserve their spinner so giving it more bulk makes sense in theory but I agree that Starmie's speed is one of it's biggest selling points so not taking advantage of that is not using Starmie's best sets which are the offensive ones.
And all I have to say about this Volcanion talk is, literally any special electric type viable in OU will beat it.
Literally not a single electric type can switch into it except maybe Mega Ampharos xD
 
It's just so ironic that Volcanion is probably gonna be it's own worst enemy since it's prevents it from spamming it's stab attacks. And while Earth Power is awesome coverage against opposing Volcanion's it's not that difficult to pair it with something that has a ground immunity like Rotom-W. That is at least my biggest gripe with choiced Volcanion as I think Volcanion would really benefit from being able to switch moves in unfavorable matchups. But choiced Volcanion are still sexy as hell and I recall Scarf Volcanion's Steam Eruption hitting about as hard as Specs Keldeo's Scald which is a scary power for a Scarfer and Specs is scary as hell unless your name is Chansey.

Gengar isn't what I'd call super common and some team try to preserve their spinner so giving it more bulk makes sense in theory but I agree that Starmie's speed is one of it's biggest selling points so not taking advantage of that is not using Starmie's best sets which are the offensive ones.

Literally not a single electric type can switch into it except maybe Mega Ampharos xD
Maybe not on the switch, but I know that Zapdos can lay waste to this thing. Volcanion can't outspeed and it's special bulk isn't enough to survive after hazards.
 
I don't think that volcanion will be huge. Of course it seems decent but a lot popular stuff just hurts it a lot like lati, scarftar. Also being slow and weak to hazards won't help at all.

I would rather take it as pivot but with thesr rocks... Nah.

Imo, it will not stay in ou. I might be wrong, because I'm not very good :P
 
And all I have to say about this Volcanion talk is, literally any special electric type viable in OU will beat it.
Breaking news: Pokemon have weaknesses!
In other news, water is wet.

I hate seeing comments like this whenever a new pokemon or mega comes out. It's so brain dead because it applies to literally every pokemon in the game cept Eelektross and it doesn't accomplish anything.
 
A lot of people are hyping up offensive specs volc, but I see it as a menace defensively because it has really nice defensive synnergy. Mega Sab's magic bounce stops opps from setting up rocks to wear down volcanion, which is really nice while checking the grounds and rock types that may threaten volcanion. Volcanion can check most fairies bar like clefable and anything else overly fat I can think of. Volcanion can switch into any attack from azu bar like banded superpower and shit like that while pressuring it with scald burns. Mega Garde can do some damage with focus blast (as most volcanions will prolly be physdef) but volcanion can check it with scald/flamethrower well enough. Diancie is obviously blown back by scald, klefki dies to flamethrower, and yeah. Also, fire types that threaten sab like tran and talon get bopped by scald. Aside from that, it offers some solid defensive typing and I could imagine it using like dual stabs toxictect or something like that.
 
So n00b question but what, besides Chansey, readily switches into Volcanion? What stops this guy from spamming Super Scald besides other Volcanion? Anything defensive (Venu) hates burns. Volcanion's out on something that can't threaten it. What now?
 
Gastrodon is the best counter Volcanion will have I guess (Seismitoad too but that's pretty niche, as Jellicent can't burn it and other Water Absorbers are bad). I don't really see Volcanion as a top thread. It'll be good but It won't be S rank for sure and pretty hardly will enter A+ on VR
 
Gastrodon is the best counter Volcanion will have I guess (Seismitoad too but that's pretty niche, as Jellicent can't burn it and other Water Absorbers are bad). I don't really see Volcanion as a top thread. It'll be good but It won't be S rank for sure and pretty hardly will enter A+ on VR
Yeah if i really had to guess a rank for it i would say A- because while it does appear to provide a lot of wallbreaking utility its slow, rocks weak, and somewhat easy to rkill.
 
Gastrodon is the best counter Volcanion will have I guess (Seismitoad too but that's pretty niche, as Jellicent can't burn it and other Water Absorbers are bad). I don't really see Volcanion as a top thread. It'll be good but It won't be S rank for sure and pretty hardly will enter A+ on VR

Watch out for the Specs set posted earlier, HP Grass will blow back Gastrodon.
 
Mega Latias switches in homie

So do specially bulky waters like Slowking.

Realistically, its stabs are walled by Water and Dragon, so Latis will be a common check I'm guessing.

Also to touch on Random Passerby's comment on Manaphy: people are retarded. With Hoopa-U, our strongest wallbreaker, not allowed on the suspect ladder, nobody was using our second best wallbreaker?? It obliterates just about every stall team I saw. I was actually gonna build with it and ladder using that but I saw nobody using it so deemed it safe to spam my Diancie HO (which is weak AF to Mana lol)
 
What about it going mixed? It has a pretty decent 110 Atk and moves like Earthquake, Superpower, and Stone Edge to work with. Though I don't think those actually hit anything relevant.
 
So n00b question but what, besides Chansey, readily switches into Volcanion? What stops this guy from spamming Super Scald besides other Volcanion? Anything defensive (Venu) hates burns. Volcanion's out on something that can't threaten it. What now?
It has very limited switch ins. Mega Latias and Goodra can both take a hit, it can actually lure Chansey with LO Superpower, so there's that. Latios works as a one time switch in, but takes massive damage from a Specs Sludge bomb or even Steam Eruption. Just go with some water resists and offensive pressure to keep it at bay, and limit the switch in opportunities. I think the fact that it has good defences and such power will make it very effective in the metagame. CM Manaphy should become less common, CM Suicune might want to run something like toxic to take it on.

Gastrodon is the best counter Volcanion will have I guess (Seismitoad too but that's pretty niche, as Jellicent can't burn it and other Water Absorbers are bad). I don't really see Volcanion as a top thread. It'll be good but It won't be S rank for sure and pretty hardly will enter A+ on VR
Most sets will run hp grass to prevent these from countering it. It doesn't have a really varied movepool, but it's got what it needs. HP grass can hit a lot of water types really hard that aren't 4x weak to it: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Slowking: 198-234 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I've been thinking that the spreads I posted previously only outspeed Lando T by a little bit. If Volcanion is prominent, I'm pretty sure Lando users will find the 16 speed evs to spare to outspeed it. I've been thinking that a much more boring spread of 252 sp atk/252 spe might be safer to avoid this happening, despite losing out on the extra bulk.

Just skimming through defensive stuff that this comes in on, there's Amoonguss, Ferro, Defensive Tran (I don't think this runs earth power), Skarmory, and sp def Talon. I think this will have a pretty powerful impact on OU as long as teams using it can figure out how to take advantage of Chansey, or keep rocks off the field effectively for the LO set. Based on the switch in opportunities it has due to defences and typing, and the lack of switch ins in return, I think this will be among the best A+ ranks in the game at least, and I can really see it in S. Although I guess we'll just have to wait.
 
It has very limited switch ins. Mega Latias and Goodra can both take a hit, it can actually lure Chansey with LO Superpower, so there's that. Latios works as a one time switch in, but takes massive damage from a Specs Sludge bomb or even Steam Eruption. Just go with some water resists and offensive pressure to keep it at bay, and limit the switch in opportunities. I think the fact that it has good defences and such power will make it very effective in the metagame. CM Manaphy should become less common, CM Suicune might want to run something like toxic to take it on.


Most sets will run hp grass to prevent these from countering it. It doesn't have a really varied movepool, but it's got what it needs. HP grass can hit a lot of water types really hard that aren't 4x weak to it: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Slowking: 198-234 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I've been thinking that the spreads I posted previously only outspeed Lando T by a little bit. If Volcanion is prominent, I'm pretty sure Lando users will find the 16 speed evs to spare to outspeed it. I've been thinking that a much more boring spread of 252 sp atk/252 spe might be safer to avoid this happening, despite losing out on the extra bulk.

Just skimming through defensive stuff that this comes in on, there's Amoonguss, Ferro, Defensive Tran (I don't think this runs earth power), Skarmory, and sp def Talon. I think this will have a pretty powerful impact on OU as long as teams using it can figure out how to take advantage of Chansey, or keep rocks off the field effectively for the LO set. Based on the switch in opportunities it has due to defences and typing, and the lack of switch ins in return, I think this will be among the best A+ ranks in the game at least, and I can really see it in S. Although I guess we'll just have to wait.
This is my thoughts as well. I think people are really underestimating how powerful Steam Eruption is (and people are already singing its praises). I'd probably add Scizor to the things Volc can come in on safely as well. As for Mega Latias being a switch in, she also doesn't like to be burned thanks to her lack of Leftovers. I dunno, I can see a lot of people complaining that you have to run Gastrodon or Seismatoad to even attempt to switch in. I can also see Volc in A+-S for sure
 
Defensive teams are going to be relying on more water immune mons, think Gastrodon, Seismitoad, Vaporeon as far as Volcanion goes. If they're going to take into account Volcanion they can't rely solely on Chansey because it'll only have so many opportunities to take Steam Eruption accounting for burns, hazards, loss of momentum, etc. It also mandates that Chansey is using a fully specially defensive spread which I don't think is an issue seeing that's a thing for Manaphy already. After that most of the other archetypes will fall under the spectrum of being able to apply enough pressure on it. It's weak to common types in Ground while also weak to Electric so it can't really come on a whole lot barring some passive mons. To make up some matchups like M-Diancie vs Volcanion, Garchomp vs Volcanion, and so forth it would need a scarf because they have enough power to put a huge dent in it and scarf defeats the purpose of breaking down fat stuff which would be appreciated for partners like M-Diancie and Lando-T who can sometimes struggle in these matchups like Ground + Skarm + Fairy for example.

A lot of experimentation will obviously happen but I'll be surprised if Specs / Life Orb isnt the variant being ran as a standard seeing as how some of its best partners have issues with wall-breaking and its going to have a lot of firepower to cushion up teams, fun stuff. As far as Volcanion goes it's definitely gonna be an A+ mon I don't think people are giving it enough credit.
 
Jellicent needs 144 sp def to avoid the 2hko from hp grass on the switch in.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 208-246 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 144 SpD Jellicent: 180-214 (44.5 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
Seeing as Volcanion discussion is going on, I figured I'd weigh in a bit. Sorry for the super long post, that's a recurring problem with me lol

I'm definitely thinking specs Volc is going to be the best set (though this already seems to be the general consensus), if just because Steam Eruption is so damn spammable bar it's PP. Of course, I'm an offense player so take that with a pinch of salt, so Defensive might have some merit. Shuca could be nice to alleviate the ground weakness, but no ground type is switching in on a Volcanion with the possibility of specs anyways, and Steam Eruption is already going to sting like a slap on the cheek, if said slapper had a hand the size of my house. Steam Eruption is basically a bulky physical attacker's worst nightmare, with the power of Hydro and the Burn Chance of Scald. 180 speed EV investment is probs going to be the best speed investment in order to outspeed Defensive Lando and non-offensive Heatran - It's what I EVd for initially in the OM Unreleased OU. I'm not entirely decided on it's ideal coverage, but pretty certain about Sludge Wave/Bomb being there to nail Azu. Speaking of Azu, I think this will probably be the best BD Azu/Azu in general check around, as it outspeeds and OHKOs with Sludge W/B and completely walls it's STAB, which is really nice because BD Azu is REALLY difficult to beat sometimes. I'm liking the idea of Earth Power on Volc to nab Raikou/MMane and other Volcanion on the switch, but HP Grass gives it a better stall matchup, nailing things like Quag, Seismitoad and other Water Absorb mons like Jellicent or something. I don't see Focus Blast being that good as most FB targets are already hit SE by Fire Blast. It's probably going to be EP/HP Grass on the eventual Analysis and vice versa. It's not uncounterable, Jellicent, Slowking and some other super fat waters exist.

I'm looking at the attack stat and wondering if there's potential for a mixed set. It's definitely not going to be it's best set as Specs has enough special attack and coverage to 2hko most of the tier anyways, but maybe Superpower can be run to hit Chansey or something, who otherwise completely walls it out (of course it does it's freaking Chansey what special attacker other than Keldeo and Specs Psyshock/Drain Punch Hoopa DOESN'T it wall?). It'd probably be mostly special with Superpower as the last moveslot for Chansey, and Life Orb over Specs. Unfortunately, it'd need a lot of attack investment to actually 2hko, maybe so much that it probably wouldn't be that effective outside of luring Chansey. Earthquake could probably damage Raikou a bit more, but would be a bit impractical outside it as it hinders it's ability to hit MMane thanks to Intimidate, Raikou is already chunked by Specs Steam Eruption, and is reliant on hitting it on the switch as a sp.def dropping nature is mandatory to avoid dropping Volc's already poorish speed even more. On the plus side, it hits Dragalge for better damage, I guess, but Earth Power's already doing huge damage to it with specs anyways and Dragalge's not that common to begin with.

Also, a moment of peace for Keldeo, who will probably lose it's title of "Most Difficult Water Type To Switch In On in OU" to this monster. Of course, Keldeo'll be viable as ever (neat defensive typing letting it check Dark Spam, MUCH faster, SS hits physically on special sets to beat The Pink Blob), it's just that it's probably not going to be the immediate go-to water type special wallbreaker anymore. As in, when people think Water Type Wallbreaker, they don't immediately think Keldeo and how oh ffs they'll need a super fat grass to switch in and oh for the love of god what about SubCM, and so on. It'll still be damn good, just not the unequivocal best.
 
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