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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
- Thread starter alex
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He can get Ice Punch and Swords Dance together, which is what I believe was the discussion a while back when I brought up Maganium. I don't think Ice Punch + Dragon Dance is legal however.
I think you need a Dragonite from Emerald with Ice Punch.
Wow, that actually should work o.O
So Ice Punch + DD is legal on Feraligatr.
So Ice Punch + DD is legal on Feraligatr.
Yes, it does. But only with Emerald Move Tutor.
Because, so far there aren't any NFE pokemon on the tier list sans ones that are completely different (Scyther/Scizor). The whole NFE issue is still in debate.
ok thanks, just wondering, because it is on pojo.
But... but... I used Pinsir to prove that Cacturine is UU >_> If Pinsir goes, then I'll have to come up with a new argument...
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On a more serious note, you forgot that it also gets Swords Dance >_>
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On a more serious note, you forgot that it also gets Swords Dance >_>
Pinsir doesn't work in OU because it's a mediocre version of Heracross.
Pinsir is too powerful for UU because it's a mediocre version of Heracross.
OU has a Hera Weak like UU has a Pinsir Weak, the only difference bewing that without a Gliscor equivalent to bail you out of Pinsir (Gligar isn't powerful enough), Pinsir actually is unstoppable.
Pinsir is too powerful for UU because it's a mediocre version of Heracross.
OU has a Hera Weak like UU has a Pinsir Weak, the only difference bewing that without a Gliscor equivalent to bail you out of Pinsir (Gligar isn't powerful enough), Pinsir actually is unstoppable.
Hitmontop resists everything but EQ and with Intimidate it could probably handle it...
Hyper Cutter makes Intimidate useless on Pinsir, and SD Earthquake 2HKOs at the very least, whilst Close Combat would probably OHKO, although Pinsir is unlikely to carry that on a Swords Dance set. Hitmontop won't be KOing back if it survives.
Anyways, Deck Knight and I discussed Pinsir last week, and came to the conclusion that nothing is a foolproof counter to it. It should definitely be BL.
Hmm, I thought it was decided awhile ago that Pinsir was BL? (IIRC, it OHKO's Gligar with a SD'd Stone Edge, though I don't remember if it was with or without LO)
Anyways...yeah, Pinsir wrecks UU. 85 speed is enough to outrun a lot of UU pokemon, and with Swords Dance off 125 base attack, everything is 2HKO'd at the very least (Hyper Cutter screws up intimidate). And Pinsir is decently durable as well, enough that it can take a mid-power hit from a faster pokemon and survive most of the time.
Too bad for it, since it'll probably see almost zero use in OU. But that's the way tiers work.
Anyways...yeah, Pinsir wrecks UU. 85 speed is enough to outrun a lot of UU pokemon, and with Swords Dance off 125 base attack, everything is 2HKO'd at the very least (Hyper Cutter screws up intimidate). And Pinsir is decently durable as well, enough that it can take a mid-power hit from a faster pokemon and survive most of the time.
Too bad for it, since it'll probably see almost zero use in OU. But that's the way tiers work.
Yeah, Pinsir is an awkward one, but I don't know if we should be so hasty in damning him. 85 speed is respectable, but it means that even after 3 Swords Dances, a faster Pokemon can still come out and paralyse/sleep/burn him, if not just finish him off altogether. Fast Fire types like Ninetales and Rapidash can pick him off, perhaps even Overheat Manectric. Swellow and Fearow can take him down with STAB Brave Bird/Drill Peck, heck even Chatot gives him a pain with superior speed and special flying attacks. Hitmonlee has higher speed and has Blaze Kick/Stone Edge to play with. Add countless Pokemon to that list by giving them a Choice Scarf. Several Pokemon are tough enough to phaze him too.
I understand that Pinsir doesn't have a clear-cut counter in UU, but neither does Tyranitar in OU and we don't send him packing to ubers. Pinsir will be a case of predict correctly, and if that fails, force him out with a revenge killer (look above, there's loads of 'em).
I'd rather we didn't force out any half decent Pokemon to the point where UU is full of Altarias. Pinsir poses an interesting challenge and can function as a top-tier UU just like the 600 BSTers.
I'd at least give him some testing before we banish him. If we gave freaking Manaphy a chance, I'm sure we can give Pinsir the same.
I understand that Pinsir doesn't have a clear-cut counter in UU, but neither does Tyranitar in OU and we don't send him packing to ubers. Pinsir will be a case of predict correctly, and if that fails, force him out with a revenge killer (look above, there's loads of 'em).
I'd rather we didn't force out any half decent Pokemon to the point where UU is full of Altarias. Pinsir poses an interesting challenge and can function as a top-tier UU just like the 600 BSTers.
I'd at least give him some testing before we banish him. If we gave freaking Manaphy a chance, I'm sure we can give Pinsir the same.
Please don't begin to accuse me of inflating my ego thats just the most hypocritical statement ever coming from you of all people. Also its not my job to state every last bit of detail about something when you could use some foresight and just pop over to Serebii and check for yourself what else is on offer especially about something that obvious.
Besides being both NFE therefore not really being part of the discussion and also having some of the most attrocious defenses in the entire game? The thing is almost comparable with even the likes of Jigglypuff with how fragile it is.
EDIT:
Actually Marill would be a closer comparisson.
I thought the thing was already moved up to BL. I'm pretty mixed on Cacturne on one hand it is one mean plant probably OHKO'ing most of UU with Sucker Punch after Swords Dance. But same could be said for Absol.
On the other hand it could simply be a case of a underpowered pokemon which just fills a certain niche which lets it perform outstandingly in standard.
On the subject of Pinsir, personally speaking I'd love to keep it in UU as a high tier sweeper rather than send it to BL. Much like how Druidcruel functions, given its extra Stealth Rock abilities too it even has that certain support part going.
On the other hand I would quite easily admit on paper Pinsir is a monster of epic proportions. Having seen it in action before its certainly strong but not difficult to stop, half of the game is being able to adapt to threats on the fly. Pinsir may be a case of try before you buy actually.
Foretsy: onto a more important subject matter: Stallrein and Snover. Have we reached a consensus yet or do you still have an argument against the banning of Walrein if Snover is allowed in UU? Or, have we 2. reached a consensus on Snover?
The NFE argument is still being discussed. Considering that that is a separate topic, I say we assume they are allowed and start banning them on an individual basis as is. The UU Environment is shaping up pretty nicely so far, to the point where NFEs can be considered on a case by case basis. If NFEs are totally banned at the end of the other discussion, then they're banned. But if they are allowed, our work would pay off.
This subject has probably been regurgitated many times over but, I have come to insert my two cents on one Pokemon. Please note this is my first post on Smogon, but I have been lurking for 3+ months.
Azumarril is most definitely BL. I have faced a few matches against both Choice Band and Belly-Drum variants, both of which smashed my team into the ground. It may have stemmed from a poor choice of team members but, regardless, I think it's power is a tad underestimated, and a little too much for UU to handle. If this is a bit overdone, I apologize.
Azumarril is most definitely BL. I have faced a few matches against both Choice Band and Belly-Drum variants, both of which smashed my team into the ground. It may have stemmed from a poor choice of team members but, regardless, I think it's power is a tad underestimated, and a little too much for UU to handle. If this is a bit overdone, I apologize.
Were the Belly Drummers those "LOL BD + AQUA JET LOLOLOLOL" N00bs? Seriously. There's a reason Azumarill can't get both of them at the same time.
THANK GOD THAT"S NOT LEGIT. I think that azumarril is just seeming to be a threat as it's probably people wanting to use a UU pokemon that medicham plus a priority move. Azumarrill though, should probably stay UU as Gligar might have trouble with it, but the Steelrocks and mantine I guess have no troble with it.
I'd love to see any Steel/Rock type trying to wall even one attack from Waterfall/Focus Punch/Superpower/Brick Break, choice banded or not, whilst Mantine is easily 2HKO'd by Return, and Ice Punch too if choice banded. Therefore, unless troble means something completely different to just 'trouble' misspelt, your argument is rather flawed. Not arguing one way or the other about Azumarill btw, just stating the facts.
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