DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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Just another quick summary so we know what we've covered so far just so we know theres an actual outcome to this thread. I've skimmed the thread so let me know if I missed any.

BL waiting list. The ones to be removed.
-Feraligatr
-Poliwrath
-Typhlosion
-Crobat
-Azumarill
-Ninetales
-Ursaring
-Slowking
-Mamoswine
-Ambipom
-Jumpluff

UU's to be tested.
-Walrein
-Glaceon
-Pinsir
-Cacturne

BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU.
-Claydol (Very Strong)
-Cloyster (Very Strong)
-Torterra (High)
-Regigigas (Very Low)

Widely Acceptable NFE's. (Debatable ones are in the other thread)
-Scyther
-Magmar
-Electabuzz
-Trapinch
-Poliwhirl
-Clamperl
-Vigoroth
-Pikachu
 
Just another quick summary so we know what we've covered so far just so we know theres an actual outcome to this thread. I've skimmed the thread so let me know if I missed any.

BL waiting list. The ones to be removed.
-Feraligatr
-Poliwrath <-- Its been listed as a counter several times, but no-one's argued it should move to BL as far as I'm aware.
-Typhlosion
-Crobat
-Azumarill
-Ninetales
-Ursaring
-Slowking
-Mamoswine
-Ambipom
-Jumpluff

UU's to be tested.
-Walrein <-- Most of this was in the context of Snover for Auto-Hail, which is still being debated.
-Glaceon
-Pinsir
-Cacturne

BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU.
-Claydol (Very Strong)
-Cloyster (Very Strong)
-Torterra (High)
-Regigigas (Very Low)

Widely Acceptable NFE's. (Debatable ones are in the other thread)
-Scyther
-Magmar
-Electabuzz
-Trapinch
-Poliwhirl
-Clamperl
-Vigoroth
-Pikachu

Bold are the only things I see amiss. Basically only Poliwrath. Physical water STAB and Ice Punch is cool and all.

Actually, I don't know where the heck Poliwrath for BL comes from. It just seemed to show up a couple of posts ago on somebody's listing in Red Text, without much talk about it. There's always Sub-Belly Drum @ Salac, but that's the most dangerous offensive threat Poliwrath can present, otherwise its mostly a defensive threat.
 
Ehh, Foresty, for Regigigas, the debating was more at the beginning of the thread. That's probably why you put Very Low for reccomendation, but the debates were plentiful at the beginning of the threads where basically anyone who said it should be BL got shown the truth about why it should be UU.

I'd say the recommendation was pretty high if you ask me.

For UUs to be tested, Lapras should be on there.
 
And then Floatzel Baton Passes its Bulk-Up to Quagsire or Gastrodon instead, rendering Lanturn near-useless. That's the power of Baton Passing, and a a passed Bulk-up is extremely useful in UU.

Remember To Respect, Jebroni, there's even a song about it if you need some more study on the matter.

It is possible to lower respect too. That guy couldn't even post on topic. He basically summarized the floatzel analysis, and since he did, he brought everything he said in terms of bl-ou (not saying a word of uu), which proved to be useless because we were discussing what edge floatzel had over pedo to make it to bl FROM uu. And in the end, he names a semi random + situational counter and dismisses me as some clueless random (yea I was clueless on this one subject, which is why I brought it up here). You can't be telling me that you would stay calm while actually reading all that.

Anyways, just one last Q about this: yea, rapidash + bp would make sense, but if things like quagsire and gastrodon were to be present too, wouldn't hp grass lanturn solve all of that? It seems just as usable as poliwrath is to sharpedo.

EDIT: I saw above that poliwrath can be bl? Wouldn't that promote pedo even more? True, there are other counters depending on what move pedo does, but poli was one of the sure counters.
 
For one last time, my "summarising the analysis" was an attempt to explain how Floatzel was completely different to Sharpedo. I used OU examples. So? It makes little difference, it was a freaking example. Then I explained it in UU terms and you still weren't happy. It seems you just want something to rant about - if you don't want to be treated like a clueless child, then stop acting like one.

And my counter was not situational or random. I was once again giving an example of Floatzels Baton Passing abilities to an entirely plausible counter. Stop trying to pick a fight. If you couldn't stay calm reading that, then I'd reccomend a therapist because I was happy enough to stay calm whilst being called a (BAN ME PLEASE) by some dude on the other side of the world. :heart: Last time, drop it. :heart:

but if things like quagsire and gastrodon were to be present too, wouldn't hp grass lanturn solve all of that? It seems just as usable as poliwrath is to sharpedo.

Yeah, Lanturn could use HP Grass, although it would only see use against those two, as most others would be hit harder by Surf. Standard Lanturn (note: 237 Spatk) deals 74-87% to max HP Quagsire with Hidden Power Grass. He does have better options to use though, so it is a little specialised and may end up as a wasted move slot.

Thanks for the update, Forsety.
 
It is possible to lower respect too. That guy couldn't even post on topic. He basically summarized the floatzel analysis, and since he did, he brought everything he said in terms of bl-ou (not saying a word of uu), which proved to be useless because we were discussing what edge floatzel had over pedo to make it to bl FROM uu. And in the end, he names a semi random + situational counter and dismisses me as some clueless random (yea I was clueless on this one subject, which is why I brought it up here). You can't be telling me that you would stay calm while actually reading all that.

Anyways, just one last Q about this: yea, rapidash + bp would make sense, but if things like quagsire and gastrodon were to be present too, wouldn't hp grass lanturn solve all of that? It seems just as usable as poliwrath is to sharpedo.

EDIT: I saw above that poliwrath can be bl? Wouldn't that promote pedo even more? True, there are other counters depending on what move pedo does, but poli was one of the sure counters.

Sharpedo's primary problem with being BL is that it can't OHKO anything that isn't weak to one of its attacks, and it is almost assuredly going to be destroyed in return. The problem with your "HP Grass Lanturn" deal is that Lanturn rarely has any room for Hidden Power. Between Surf, Thunderbolt, and Ice Beam it covers a lot of types, and there's no reason to waste its massive support movepool and sizable HP by slapping on a 4th attack (in fact, most Lanturns carry 2 support moves and Boltbeam). The idea with Floatzel is that you switch to something that can take whatever attack Lanturn is going to send and OHKO back before it can move. Since the most likely move Lanturn is going to use on Floatzel is Thunderbolt (or Thunder Wave), switching the bulk up to a faster Ground type makes the most sense. Quagsire and Gastrodon are slower but can take Lanturn's most likely other attacks, either Surf or Ice Beam, Gligar and Sandslash could KO it before it moves but risk an outpredict. Theoretically you could even BP in something like Exploud or Tropius that could then threaten with an unSTABBED EQ.

In any event, the match is heavily weighted in favor of the team with the Bulked Up Floatzel.
 
For one last time, my "summarising the analysis" was an attempt to explain how Floatzel was completely different to Sharpedo. I used OU examples. So? It makes little difference, it was a freaking example. Then I explained it in UU terms and you still weren't happy. It seems you just want something to rant about - if you don't want to be treated like a clueless child, then stop acting like one.

And my counter was not situational or random. I was once again giving an example of Floatzels Baton Passing abilities to an entirely plausible counter. Stop trying to pick a fight. If you couldn't stay calm reading that, then I'd reccomend a therapist because I was happy enough to stay calm whilst being called a (BAN ME PLEASE) by some dude on the other side of the world. :heart: Last time, drop it. :heart:

You can't explain something that is off subject. You pretty did something similar to this: "what can kyogre do to dent a lot of ubers?" ---> "it can ohko many ou pokes". At first, you explained how it worked in a different tier. You really think that doesn't matter? Your examples are pointless if they don't answer anything. I'm not even sure if your level of reading is even past 4th grade level, because I even said that I was clueless on this area (not to mention that I never said rapidash wasn't plausible but situational), but that doesn't mean you, somebody I have never even heard of, can say I am a....clueless child, especially when you don't even know how to explain anything. Trying to get a single message across to you is like trying to communicate with a developing caveman.

You claim that your counter was not situational (and I have no solid proof of this either), but I can bet that you would have instantly changed your moves to taunt instead of going to a fire poke if I said that I would be using sleep powder (which seems to be the kind of "change of mind" things you've been doing the whole time), a common grass pokemon's move, in an attempt to blindly support floatzel's position. That itself is saying you are just naming things as you are going along just to win a discussion.

EDIT: Also, I now have everything cleared up, no thanks to you (more like thanks to deckknight and the previous others), so I won't need to pay attention to you anymore.
 
why would cloyster move down to UU

it's BL, it's defense is way too high for UU, i mean 504 max defense is nothing to laugh about

and don't go saying about special attacks cause who in there right mind would use cloyster against a special sweeper, he's out there to stall physical sweepers like weavilie

there are also a lot more physical sweepers in UU than special sweepers, so cloyster would be too powerful

cloyster stays in BL
 
Shouldn't we test Ninetales in UU before condemning it to BL?
Particularly if we are considering things like Pinsir and Cacturne as Ninetales works well against both ...

*Edit*

[Cloyster's] BL, it's defense is way too high for UU, i mean 504 max defense is nothing to laugh about

That's exactly the same as Aggron, and yet he is most defintely UU. Shuckle's max defence is 604, is that too powerful for UU? Yes Cloyster has high defence, but he also has only 1 resistance (Ice), and weakness to Fighting, Rock, Electric & Steel. Add to that its average movepool and offenses, and terrible HP, looks like UU material to me.
 
why would cloyster move down to UU

it's BL, it's defense is way too high for UU, i mean 504 max defense is nothing to laugh about

and don't go saying about special attacks cause who in there right mind would use cloyster against a special sweeper, he's out there to stall physical sweepers like weavilie

there are also a lot more physical sweepers in UU than special sweepers, so cloyster would be too powerful

cloyster stays in BL

Assuming 252/252 Bold Cloyster... (aka, is 3-hit KO by Tentacruel surf and 2-hit KOed by Specs Glaceon Blizzard... and anything special really)

Hitmonchan can 2-hit KO with Close Combat, Hitmonlee can do it with Hi-Jump Kick + Reckless (20% boost in power), and Cloyster isn't going to be recovering that damage any time soon. With a Life Orb, Hitmonchan has a possible OHKO with Iron Fist + Focus Punch. (Sub/Punch set, 30% boost on Focus Punch)

On Hitmonchan's classic Bolt/beam wannabie set (Ice Punch / Thunder Punch), with Life Orb Hitmonchan does 41.78% - 49.01% to Cloyster, a 2-hit KO with stealth rocks on the field.

Pinsir (currently UU/BL testing) is looking at a guarenteed 2-hit KO with a Choice Band or Life Orb with Close Combat. Aggron Stone Edge is a 2-hit KO with Life Orb, and possible OHKO with Stealth Rocks.

I don't see an issue here at all.
 
That's exactly the same as Aggron, and yet he is most defintely UU. Shuckle's max defence is 604, is that too powerful for UU? Yes Cloyster has high defence, but he also has only 1 resistance (Ice), and weakness to Fighting, Rock, Electric & Steel. Add to that its average movepool and offenses, and terrible HP, looks like UU material to me.

Cloyster resists water too.

Though I agree, his list of resistances vs weaknesses is pretty weak. It certainly doesn't make him unusable...but I have a hard time seeing him as too powerful for UU when he's got so many weaknesses.

Okay, that was a bad way of putting it. I have a hard time seeing him as too powerful for UU when he's got so many weaknesses and so few comparative strengths. He can spin, but he himself is weak to SR, and still takes effect from both types of spikes, so he's a pretty poor spinner, I could easily see reasons to use Hitmontop or Torkoal over him. And I don't see how it unbalances UU, either. It's attacks aren't particularly strong for a wall, it doesn't have an great support movepool outside of spikes/spin, and it's not incredibly difficult to break, especially when you factor in it's pititful special defense.

And this shouldn't really be a point at all, but Cloyster was UU in advance, right? He just got worse with the advent of SR and recieved very few improvements. So him moving up to BL seems...odd, to say the least.
 
I agree that ninetales should be tested before moving it to BL. It seems to me to be one of those pokemon who can serve well enough in OU and UU, without being disruptive in the UU environment. Its relatively quick hypnosis and nasty plot with good type coverage and flash fire seems very nice, but I'm not certain it will actually damage UU in any way. Especially seeing as the best way to take advantage of it's highly synergystic moveset is to not scarf it, which means it is susceptible to a fair number of counters. It may actually make UU fun - I can forsee a type of UU arms race between ninetales and nidoking, for example.
 
Cloyster resists water too.

Though I agree, his list of resistances vs weaknesses is pretty weak. It certainly doesn't make him unusable...but I have a hard time seeing him as too powerful for UU when he's got so many weaknesses.

Okay, that was a bad way of putting it. I have a hard time seeing him as too powerful for UU when he's got so many weaknesses and so few comparative strengths. He can spin, but he himself is weak to SR, and still takes effect from both types of spikes, so he's a pretty poor spinner, I could easily see reasons to use Hitmontop or Torkoal over him. And I don't see how it unbalances UU, either. It's attacks aren't particularly strong for a wall, it doesn't have an great support movepool outside of spikes/spin, and it's not incredibly difficult to break, especially when you factor in it's pititful special defense.

And this shouldn't really be a point at all, but Cloyster was UU in advance, right? He just got worse with the advent of SR and recieved very few improvements. So him moving up to BL seems...odd, to say the least.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11508

Cloyster was BL last generation.
 
Whoops, my bad. I never did play Advance, so...eh.

Regarding Ninetails...it would definitely be a strong sweeping threat in UU, thanks to Nasty Plot/Flamethrower/Hypnosis/Energy Ball. The fact that it has 100 base speed only works in it's favor - come in on something that'll switch out, plot, hypnosis the counter, plot on the switch, go for the sweep. There are a lot less dragons to watch out for in UU as well. I'm not sure if that alone really makes it too strong for UU, but that's most likely it's deadliest set, especially in the UU environment.
 
Thanks Foresty for the update btw. But I don't like where this is going. Lemme explain. But first, a few notes.

Just another quick summary so we know what we've covered so far just so we know theres an actual outcome to this thread. I've skimmed the thread so let me know if I missed any.

BL waiting list. The ones to be removed.
-Feraligatr
-Poliwrath
-Typhlosion
-Crobat
-Azumarill
-Ninetales
-Ursaring
-Slowking
-Mamoswine
-Ambipom *
-Jumpluff

Just as a note, Ambipom is already BL. I count 11 pokemon on that list, 10 without Ambipom.

UU's to be tested.
-Walrein
-Glaceon
-Pinsir
-Cacturne

BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU.
-Claydol (Very Strong)
-Cloyster (Very Strong)
-Torterra (High)
-Regigigas (Very Low)

Seems to be that the consensus was to keep Regigias in BL. I don't think Walrein or Glaceon will make BL without hail btw, as I made an argument for their BL but the consensus was that they were still fine in UU.

I count 3 pokemon from UU to BL.

Widely Acceptable NFE's. (Debatable ones are in the other thread)
-Scyther
-Magmar
-Electabuzz
-Trapinch
-Poliwhirl
-Clamperl
-Vigoroth
-Pikachu

I'd say that all of those NFEs can be in UU without a problem.

-------------

That said, currently there are precisely 60 Pokemon in the BL tier, with the current community consensus going towards banning 10 more pokemon from UU and unbanning ~3... we are looking at 67 Pokemon + potentials (like Pinsir) to be banned to the never never land of unbalanced faux tiers. This faux tier is currently larger than ADV's OU tier, and is only going to get larger as this discussion goes on.

That is well over 10% of the entire pokemon population, including NFEs. There were only 27 pokemon in BL in the ADV generation according to the latest list. There are 42 pokemon in the current OU tier, making the current BL tier size 42% larger than the current OU tier, and the current trend shows that it is only going to get bigger.

I argue this is a sign that we have far too many BL pokemon currently, similarly, we'll probably need to add 2 more tiers now that so many pokemon exist.
 
Whoops, my bad. I never did play Advance, so...eh.

Regarding Ninetails...it would definitely be a strong sweeping threat in UU, thanks to Nasty Plot/Flamethrower/Hypnosis/Energy Ball. The fact that it has 100 base speed only works in it's favor - come in on something that'll switch out, plot, hypnosis the counter, plot on the switch, go for the sweep. There are a lot less dragons to watch out for in UU as well. I'm not sure if that alone really makes it too strong for UU, but that's most likely it's deadliest set, especially in the UU environment.

Not to mention that at the end of the day Ninetales is still a fire type, vulnerable to Stealth Rock, and there are plenty of fast Earthquakers (whether that is through natural speed or CS). I think we should keep Ninetales UU for the moment, otherwise as Dragontamer has pointed out the BL tier will outnumber everything.

*Edit*

Going back over the BL list ....

Shedinja - wasn't that going to be tested in UU?

Some other possibilities for discussion Lickilicky, Leafeon, Steelix & Zangoose. Would these be too be considered for testing?

Lickilicky - honestly don't know anything about it ... someone will have to explain why its BL.

Leafeon - Good attack/defense stat, decent speed, Swords Dancer, but suffers from the Eeveelution curse of a limited movepool, and its grass typing, surely a possible candidate for UU? I can't see it getting much use in BL and (on paper) it doesn't seem to unbalancing.

Steelix - great physical wall, but what else can it do? A lot of UU pokemon have got better this gen, but has Steelix gained enough to warrant its BL status? Perhaps we should give it a try.

Zangoose - hmmm ..., I'm not sure. Well at least its easily Ko'ed by Mach punch.
 
BL waiting list. The ones to be removed.
-Feraligatr
-Poliwrath
-Typhlosion
-Crobat
-Azumarill
-Ninetales
-Ursaring
-Slowking
-Mamoswine
-Jumpluff

UU's to be tested.
-Walrein
-Glaceon
-Pinsir
-Cacturne

BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU.
-Claydol (Very Strong)
-Cloyster (Very Strong)
-Torterra (High)
-Shedinja (High)
-Regigigas (Very Low)

Widely Acceptable NFE's. (Debatable ones are in the other thread)
-Scyther
-Magmar
-Electabuzz
-Trapinch
-Poliwhirl
-Clamperl
-Vigoroth
-Pikachu

Corrected some stuff:
Ampibom is already listed BL.
Shedinja should at least be tested in UU
 
Dragontamer said:
BL tier is too big

Generally you have a point, but I don't think we should be discussing a complete new revamp of BL and surrounding tiers right now, so I'd like people not to reply to it.
 
Bold are the only things I see amiss. Basically only Poliwrath. Physical water STAB and Ice Punch is cool and all.

I think the idea came from basically just that, its great defenses, 321HP minimum, Water Absorb, Belly Drum/Hypnosis and Ice/STAB Fighting/Water offer brilliant coverage after Belly Drum. There was also the fact a few agreed and absolutely nobody challenged it hence why I threw it up there.

Shouldn't we test Ninetales in UU before condemning it to BL?
Particularly if we are considering things like Pinsir and Cacturne as Ninetales works well against both ...
I think if you want to test it for sake of whether theres a counter than we'd probably be better letting Typhlosion down than Ninetales given how the main issues with Ninetales is that its a 100 base sleeper with Nasty Plot with reliable attacks. Theres nothing in UU that can realistically slow that down its the exact same issue with Jynx except with good defenses.

What else I've seen on what else you mentioned.

Lickilicky- Its a powerhouse with high power moves, high support and some of the highest defense all-round in the entire game. There was actually a large thread a while back which showed it had an incredible ammount of advantages.

Shedinja- Yes it was definitely mentioned. I missed it earlier that can be added.

Leafeon- Sturdy, high offenses, speed and a extremely effective Swords Dance BP'er. Probably gets through on the same basis Jumpluff or Floatzel does.

Steelix- Actual offensive coverage with the elemental fangs a speed modifier, generally great typing, ideal SR'r on top of what we know it already does well. However I do agree it could be considered on basis of its attack seems awfully low.

Ehh, Foresty, for Regigigas, the debating was more at the beginning of the thread. That's probably why you put Very Low for reccomendation, but the debates were plentiful at the beginning of the threads where basically anyone who said it should be BL got shown the truth about why it should be UU.

I'd say the recommendation was pretty high if you ask me.

For UUs to be tested, Lapras should be on there.
Actually I put that because although it was suggested there was some very fierce arguments against it early on. Much unlike Torterra who was contested but mostly alot for and Claydol/Cloyster who were overwhelming with no againsts.

Lapras is just something that slipped my mind because to be honest it hasn't really been mentioned in the thread.
 
Lapras can work as Physical Sweeper (Dragon Dance, Waterfall, Return, Avalanche), Special Sweeper (Thunderbolt, Surf, Ice Beam, Psychic, etc...), Wall (101 subs, good defenses, great HP), etc. With this versability, it should be BL, because there isn't a real counter for all their sets. Hypno stops the Special one, but the Physical will hurt him. Quagsire stops the physical one (or not?), but the special one will hurt him a lot.

What do you think?
 
I think the idea came from basically just that, its great defenses, 321HP minimum, Water Absorb, Belly Drum/Hypnosis and Ice/STAB Fighting/Water offer brilliant coverage after Belly Drum. There was also the fact a few agreed and absolutely nobody challenged it hence why I threw it up there.


Steelix- Actual offensive coverage with the elemental fangs a speed modifier, generally great typing, ideal SR'r on top of what we know it already does well. However I do agree it could be considered on basis of its attack seems awfully low.


Actually I put that because although it was suggested there was some very fierce arguments against it early on against it. (Me included).

Lapras is just something that slipped my mind because to be honest it hasn't really been mentioned in the thread.


Ah, well basically I really don;t think Poliwrath should be in BL.

First: The Drummer set isn't horribly viable. If you want to use SubSalac that already takes up two of your moveslots, and Hypnosis would eat up a third, leaving you with Waterfall which a load of UU pokemon can eat and finish off your 25% remaining HP, Brick Break, which is even weaker than Waterfall and also can be stopped by other Bulky Waters.

Even without Hypnosis, Poliwrath suffers from low power attacks. Waterfall is 80, Brick Break is 75, Rock Slide is 75, Ice Punch is 75. Only Earthquake even meets 100 pre-STAB BP. Even then, the only thing EQ is covering is Electrics who by most rights would get owned by Brick Break anyway.

Furthermore, Poliwrath is Belly Drumming off of 85 Base Attack. That isn't bad per se, but with 70 speed to boot it needs to invest nearly all its EVs in Attack and Speed to even think about sweeping, and it is still heavily vulnerable to Choice Scarfers.

Now, my set of preference varies between the max HP Subpuncher with Waterfall and a Bulk Up set with Payback, depending on which tier I'm using it in. The Subpuncher is great because Poliwrath has middling speed and the STAB really makes it a powerhouse.

Either way, I see Poliwrath as a UU Staple. It doesn't unbalance anything, but it is useful in a wide variety of situations. Poliwrath is the pretty much the UU equivalent of Swampert, sans Stealth Rock of course. My personal opinion is that the defensive sets are much more viable than the Drummer, especially now with Focus Sash, Subversal, Choice Scarf, and more priority moves everywhere.

As for Steelix? It was BL last gen, and it got some cool new toys in Stealth Rock and Gyro Ball. It's effectively a differently typed Skarmory, and there are few reasons why anyone would choose Aggron or Probopass (or LOL Bastiodon) over it, seeing as Steelix lacks any 4x weaknesses and takes even Earthquake quite well. UnStabbed Fangs are craptastic without an attack boost, especially on Steelix which devotes most of its EV's to HP. Note that Steelix's "low" attack is equivalent to Poliwrath's.

Ohm and one last note: I've used Choice Scarf Manectric. I wouldn't advise underestimating something with 339 SA that has Tbolt, Hidden Power, and Flamethrower/Overheat readily available. The SubPetaya set never lost any effectiveness either.

Oh, and Luxray pretty much stops Lapras dead. Intimidate ruins the Physical sweeper (LOL btw.) and Luxy can eat a Surf and strike back with a monstrously powerful CB Spark. If it has Rivalry instead of Intimidate, you're in for big pain if you're the same gender.
 
I think if you want to test it for sake of whether theres a counter than we'd probably be better letting Typhlosion down than Ninetales given how the main issues with Ninetales is that its a 100 base sleeper with Nasty Plot with reliable attacks. Theres nothing in UU that can realistically slow that down its the exact same issue with Jynx except with good defenses.

Well, it isn't quite like jynx. jynx was better at dealing with hypno, with a psychic resist and a more exciting movepool - including stab on a particularly lethal type. A ninetales would have to carry dark pulse, and its hypnosis would be useless on the switch, then hypno could respond with hypnosis or twave, crippling the frail 'tales.

Not only this, but carrying dark pulse makes it more susceptible to water and ground coming in, so it isn't a foolproof option. (Switching, say, a CS sharpedo into a hypnosis/dark pulse/flamethrower/nasty plot ninetales would be pretty funny if the tales were expecting a hypno). You see how it becomes a complicated prediction game... and isn't that what we want?

A more general strategy: fast sleepers often require a sacrifice, you let it kill one thing and then send in a CSed counter. Being a fire type, it isn't like it can just switch in and out willy-nilly either.

I'm not arguing that ninetales is weak or anything (I have used ninetales competitively for 3 generations and am elated about a grass move and nasty plot), but I think that removing it from UU is not a great idea when it looks to me like ninetales will enhance the metagame there, as opposed to being of middling to low value in OU.

Of course, I could be totally wrong, which is why I would like to see it tested.
 
I think if you want to test it for sake of whether theres a counter than we'd probably be better letting Typhlosion down than Ninetales given how the main issues with Ninetales is that its a 100 base sleeper with Nasty Plot with reliable attacks. Theres nothing in UU that can realistically slow that down its the exact same issue with Jynx except with good defenses.

To be honest I'm not sure how useful this comparison is, yes they are both Fire types but Typhlosion is typically used with Choice Scarf to abuse Eruption, where as Ninetales takes at least two turns to set up, that's assuming Hypnosis hits.

Leafeon- Sturdy, high offenses, speed and a extremely effective Swords Dance BP'er. Probably gets through on the same basis Jumpluff or Floatzel does.

Fair enough, although I've always thought Floatzel incredibly overrated, or perhaps I've never just seen it used effectively.
 
Lol at "strike back with a monstrously powerful Spark".

(Thunderbolt will probably do more.)
 
Luxray's Thunderbolt is as strong as Electivire's so it probably will do more. I'd do a damage calc to be certain but I don't know the standard Lapras' EVs.
 
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