Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

[bludz]

Seth_ that's not my argument for it to drop, but it was a counterargument to one of the points (offensive rock types are good) that was defending it to stay. And I'm saying this point doesn't apply to Aero since the main attribute making other offensive rock types good is dependence on heavy hitting with their STAB which Aero does not achieve. I was merely clearing that up.

Why I think it should potentially drop is touched upon in other parts of the post. I don't see it as a more viable pokemon than Breloom or Slowking, and I think it should not share a rank with Mega Slowbro if that ends up dropping. In terms of recent meta trends I guess you can say high usages of Rotom and Mega Scizor are issues, as well as a decrease in people using Charizard. Aeros flying STAB isn't even strong enough to OHKO the bulky grasses running around now so I don't see that as a really big plus for it either. I would be okay if it stays at the moment but yeah my biggest concern is sharing a rank with Mega Bro which think is significantly more viable.

 

[Srn]

You can say that Reuinclus is the real thorn in it's side here, but again and not looking at Mega Aero's effectiveness in a vacuum, there are several extremely viable teammates such as Bisharp, Weavile, Azumarill, Heatran, Manaphy, Serperior, etc which all take advantage of it and actually prosper more from Mega Aero luring it in.

I just wanna address this little tidbit mentioned by magic

I realize that this is not the only argument he's using but in general you really need to take this argument with 50 grains of salt. There's a difference between rotom-w in a vacuum and, say, dragalge. Rotom-w is walled by lati@s, yes, but realistically speaking it will volt switch into a healthy ttar if it can and put the lati@s in a terrible position etc etc we all know this. But saying that using dragalge is ok because its weaknesses are covered by extremely viable teammates such as lando-t, heatran, tyranitar, mega venusaur, keldeo or what have you actually prosper because you lure it in or whatever is just bad logic.

First off, if dragalge is not supporting its teammates as much as it receives support, it's not worth it. Sure, maybe maero is "luring in" reuni to help bisharp, but what else does it do? Is it pressuring or switching into stuff that annoys bisharp like quag, keldeo, hippo, scarftar, mega hera etc? No it isn't. I think the idea of mega aero even pressuring things like clefable or slowbro or skarmory with stone edge is absurd. Not only do you fail to 2hko, you're relying on 80 accuracy move, teammates to safely switch you in, an SR weakness to manage, predicting correctly between the 14 different coverage options you need.
To be fair, it does actually pair nicely with serperior, switching into char-y/torn-t and serp handling hippo/quag/rotom-w, but in almost every other case the mons mentioned are hardly teammates, they're simply good pokemon being weighed down by a worse one.

Second off, the idea that you simply lure reuni in with maero and get a free switch into your bish or weavile is really simplifying things. Rotom-w is luring in latios to let ttar take advantage because it actually has this beautiful pivoting move called volt switch, meaning that there is little prediction involved: once lati switches in on your volt, your ttar is in safe and sound.
A double switch, on the other hand, is a two-way street, and mispredicting can end your bisharp or weavile up eating a focus blast and dying or keldeo doubling in.

saying its just "being observed in an extremely narrow vacuum" translates to "it needs a ton of support and prediction with the right moveset vs the right team to do anything close to what you described" in my head

Also saying Halcyon's team with defensive ferro and defensive lando-t has "trouble with it for obvious reason" whew that is just plain wrong.
You're correct in clarifying that there are 6 pokemon to help aero, but by failing to mention the 6 pokemon that are also hindering aero, you've made it look much, much better than it actually performs.
You don't need a counter to avoid getting destroyed by something (and you certainly don't need a slowbro/clefable/rotom-w to be safe against maero), and what halcyon's sample team has is more than enough.

 

[eden]

Thing is it wasn't even being observed in a narrow vacuum. There were just vague illusions to support being given to it, which can be given to better things with more benefit(things like MZam/Mlop come to mind, since we were talking about mega aero even mega manectric to be honest). The fact is that maero cannot severely pressure a standard fatter build with like lando-t/ferro/rotom-w properly. The nomination basically ignored a lot of stuff like residual damage, and assumed idealistic situations and even in those situations there were clearly defined checks and counters. Also I want to say that in spite of Mega Manectric being less common as of now, it still performs really well versus the standard offense simply because that play style has very few solid answers to offensive electric types, with the matchup possibly being more in favor of mega manectric here, than in the favor of the mega aero player.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I just wanna address this little tidbit mentioned by magic. I realize that this is not the only argument he's using but in general you really need to take this argument with 50 grains of salt.

bludz edit: IMG removed

Mega Latias A- to A

This thing is so fun to play with right now, truly screwing over your opponent with Reflect type is amazing and watching Mega Latias "best" set finally emerge is a lot of fun. Timid 252 HP, 252 Speed is a great defensive backbone checking various threats and countering plenty, it's a truly versatile pokemon that's actually surprisingly difficult to pressure. People usually plop a dark type on their team as their Psychic check, but that doesn't really work with Mega Latias! If you still suffer from PTSD from the stored power set, here, enjoy some of these teams on your own time!

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rubber-soul.3574627/

Hide

Seismitoad (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 240 Def / 20 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Earth Power
- Toxic

Skarmory (F) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 236 SpD / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Iron Head
- Roost
- Whirlwind

Clefable (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Flamethrower
- Soft-Boiled

Tyranitar (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Ice Punch

Gengar (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast
- Trick

Latias @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 12 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Roost
- Thunder Wave

or

Hide

Latias-Mega @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 240 HP / 4 Def / 12 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Reflect Type
- Roost

Terrakion @ Choice Band
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Iron Head
- Quick Attack

Clefable (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Thunder Wave
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled

Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Taunt
- Toxic

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 29 Spe
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off
- U-turn

 

[Gary]

Eh while Reflect Type Mega Latias is good and all, I wouldn't go as far to say that it's the "best" set atm. The biggest issue with the Reflect Type set is how passive it is, which allows lots of things to come in for free, namely Mega Diancie, Mega Scizor, CB T-tar, Zard-X, Ferro, Mega Sableye, Mega Metagross, and Calm Mind Clefable in particular, which is a huge problem. Although a few of these Pokemon can technically be "walled" with Reflect Type, Mega Latias can't really do much back to them outside of Roost stalling, and Mega Scizor just kinda sets up to +6 for free while Ferro sets up Spikes. Thunder Wave makes it less vulnerable to offensive threats, but then it's complete Heatran bait and is much weaker to Dark-types in general. Calm Mind Latias is just really solid right now because it's able to pose more of a threat against fat teams while still being able to abuse its stellar bulk and typing defensively. While it may lack the utility of T-wave or Reflect Type, it's no longer huge Clef bait as a +1 Psyshock is gonna hurt it, but it still has to watch out for T-wave obviously. Its typing and bulk lets it set up on a lot of shit, and it's just a great overall win con for balance and bulky offense that are weak as fuck to Keldeo, Volcanion, Zard-Y, Mega Manectric, Torn-T, etc. It's also cool because you can tailor its moveset to fit your team; Surf is good for teams that really hate Heatran and T-tar, while BoltBeam gives it all around great coverage. Arguably the best CM set overall is just the classic dual STAB variant, as it needs less turns of set up to be threatening and it can muscle through opposing CMers thanks to Psyshock. Steels are a huge bitch tho, although Ferro can't really do shit to it and neither can Heatran unless it packs Toxic. CM BoltBeam is still pretty good though the coverage is hard to pass up on.

Overall if Mega Latias should move up it should be for its CM sets, but personally I don't think it's on the same level as Mega Lop or Mega Medi, despite it definitely being one of the best Pokemon in A- by a lot. It's splashable and packs a good amount of utility, but it still suffers from passiveness and it just falls flat to a lot of big threats which makes it a liability sometimes. In all honesty T-tar being so common is probably the only reason why I can't see it being in A, because outside of paralyzing it or hitting it kinda hard with Surf, it's just huge bait for it. Oh don't forget about being completely helpless against the best Pokemon in OU, Clefable.

 

[Waluigi The Anime]

Thread doesn't seem very active atm so I'll make some nominations.

Seismitoad should rise to C+. I'm pretty sure Seismitoad was already C+ before the viability rankings changed, and I honestly see no reason as to why it dropped. The most comparable thing to Seismitoad is Gastrodon, which is currently B rank. While the two of them are very similar, Seismitoad's niche as a rock setter is really useful. As a stealth rocker, Seismitoad has a relatively easy time getting rocks up thanks to it's two immunities, allowing it to switch in on something like Volcanion or Mega Manectric and forcing them out. Its matchup against hazard removers is pretty solid, being able to force out Tentacruel and Excadrill with Earthquake, threatening Starmie and Lati's if they switch in with Knock Off, and being able to knock off Skarmory's leftovers as well as a potential burn with Scald, which can really hurt Skarmory. Having a rock resist on the team is appreciated as well, and prevents things like Terrakion from just killing everything on your team and allows you to play around it. The abundance of grass types in the meta is obviously a downside for Seismitoad, but in the turn they switch in, you can still set up rocks and try to fish for a burn, which really dampers things like Mega Venusaur. Other ground types, such as Garchomp and Landorus-T, can't really do anything back to Seismitoad, whereas Seismitoad can usually force out Landorus-T do to Scald and proceed to set up rocks and can screw Garchomp over with toxic do to its lack of recovery. A major weakness of Seismitoad is its lack of reliable recovery and being vulnerable to toxic and will-o-wisp, so Wish and Heal Bell support are appreciated. Overall, Seismitoad is decently strong in the current meta and deserves a rise.

Staraptor should rise to C. Staraptor has two solid sets in Band and Scarf, with each just erasing a specific play style. Banded Staraptor just murders bulky balanced and stall teams, with few things that are able to reliably check this thing. Defensive Landorus-T is 2HKO'd most of the time, while all other sets are outright OHKO'd after stealth rocks. Hippowdon has seen a decrease in usage, which makes Staraptor's life that much easier (Staraptor can 2HKO, but really doesn't like all the recoil). Teams that rely on a pokemon with a flying type resist such as Rotom-W and Tyranitar get easily demolished do to the coverage of Close Combat and STAB Double Edge. One of the few things that CAN reliably check Staraptor is Rhyperior, which receives very little usage do to the abundance of grass and water types, and overall being outclassed by other pokemon as a stealth rocker. Against stall teams, the opponent will need to rely on Skarmory to keep Staraptor at bay. With access to Final Gambit, however, Staraptor can just take out Skarmory with a bit of prior damage (preferably in the mid game), in which you can then proceed to break past the core. The other set, Scarfed Staraptor, excels on taking on offense (though it still has a great matchup against balanced teams). If the opponent relies on a single flying type resist such as Terrakion or Thundurus, Staraptor will usually be able to apply enough pressure on an opponent to get a KO. Strong priority such as Weavile's Ice Shard or Bisharp's Sucker Punch threaten Staraptor, but they'll usually have a hard trouble coming in. Sand is still pretty common, and Scarfed Staraptor can easily pose a threat to the opponent's team. While Staraptor can't outspeed Excadrill in the sand, Staraptor's access in Close Combat allows you to threaten Tyranitar, in which they'll probably lead with in order to get sand up. The biggest problem with Staraptor is that it gets worn down easily do to recoil and weakness to stealth rocks. However, the recoil doesn't hinder Staraptor enough to stop it from still being able to put a dent in the opponent's team, and hazard removal is an unwritten law in the current meta. To sum it all up, Staraptor's a pretty cool pokemon in the meta, being able to put in work against the playstyle your team is weak to. For all these reasons, it should rise.

Conkeldurr should drop to D. Conkeldurr's niche in the current metagame is to act as a Dark and Rock type check. It's only good set, Sheer Force, is decent, being able to hit hard. Having access to Mach Punch is great, allowing it to be able to threaten offense teams. With all this said, Conkeldurr just isn't that good in the metagame. The Sheer Force set's main goal is to come into something, take a hit, predict the switch, and hit that pokemon with a supereffective move. E.g. Conkeldurr comes into a Tyranitar, tanks a Stone Edge, and predicts Skarmory will switch in and proceed to use Thunder Punch. With this in account, Conkeldurr is extremely easy to play around. There's also the fact that it gets worn down fast do to having to tank hit after hit, along with the fact that Drain Punch doesn't heal for much and Life Orb recoil is still there. Getting worn down wouldn't be that much of a problem if it wasn't so slow, having to rely on predictions to come in and then relying predictions again to actually deal some damage. Compared with other fighting types such Mega Medicham who just press one button, Conkeldurr is really lackluster. It's priority, Mach Punch, is just so weak, failing to OHKO things like Terrakion and Mega Lopunny. If you predict the switch and go for something else, but your opponent predicts your prediction, then you have a dead Conkeldurr. Scald is still common, and since the only relevant set is Sheer Force and not Guts, burn renders Conkeldurr useless. There's very little reason to use another fighting type on your team, such as Terrakion, and therefor Conkeldurr should drop to D.

 

[HailFall]

Dont agree with staraptor rising when its only niche is on birdspam and even there it faces competition from stuff like mega pinsir. Scarf staraptor is for all intents and purposes unviable imo as the only builds that should be running staraptor should be using it for its proficiency at wallbreaking, not its ability to pressure offense. Staraptor is worn down by recoil, rocks, and other residual damage so quickly that it rarely lives for the amount of time needed to put in any significant kind of work. Not a fan of final gambit on staraptor either for similar reasons, you basically have to use it right off the bat for it to have any use at all, and with rocks up its kind of a wasted moveslot. There are plenty of better wallbreakers to choose from in ou and while they may not have the same raw power i dont see staraptor as something even worth considering on 99% of teams just because of how inconsistent it is.

 

[bludz]

Waluigi The Anime sorry to steal your thunder but we were about to update lol.

Anyway here's the ranking update:

Mega Slowbro A- -> B+
Mega Venusaur A- -> B+
Mega Aerodactyl B+ -> B
Hippowdon B -> B+
Raikou B -> B-
Dragalge B- -> C+ (C+ I MADE THE TYPO OK)
Mega Garchomp B- -> C+
Hawlucha C+ -> C
Kyurem D -> C-
Dugtrio D -> C-
Cloyster D -> Unranked

Kyurem normal moved up for Choice Specs set btw, use this instead of Specs Kyurem-Black or you will anger CBB.

Gonna try something different with the discussion slate, a bit similar to last time. Fewer noms but gonna try to provide reasoning / direction for the nominations.

Zapdos C+ -> B-
This was brought up a while ago and the ranking team has been going back and forth a bit on it. I think in terms of how to approach this discussion it's best to look at it in comparison to Mandibuzz, another hazard remover which shares the same rank. Consider the strengths and weaknesses of each, and which is more suited to the current metagame. Empoleon is also a potential comparison point since it can carry Defog as well.

Mega Altaria B+ -> B
Also brought up before and making a comeback on the discussion slate. I think the comparison to other offensive Fairy types isn't going to get us far since there's already a gap between them. Instead I think the place to look is at B rank setup sweepers like Gastrodon, Reuniclus, Slowking, Dragonite, and Volcarona. Of course, Altaria does have a bit more versatility (doesn't have to be a setup sweeper) but if these variations aren't that good then that might not count for too much. It's also worth comparing it to Mega Venusaur and Mega Slowbro which recently dropped into B+, as well as Mega Aero which just dropped out of B+.

Thundurus A- -> A
There has definitely been a decline in effectiveness for the offensive electrics - but primarily Manectric and Raikou. Thundurus still sports some useful traits that have prevented it from falling out of favor. Tyranitar is not safe against it, and neither are mons such as Latios or Clefable depending on its set. It is definitely matchup dependent, but even the standard set can be extremely threatening for many common offense teams which prepare less for electric types now because other electrics, outside of Rotom-Wash, have fallen out of favor. It's hard to draw a really strong comparison point, but I think one of the things to consider is its effectiveness against common offensive builds in comparison to other offense breakers like Weavile, Mega Lopunny, Excadrill (A ranks) and Bisharp (A- rank). Another is the versatility factor and how big of a role this plays in its viability - how viable are alternate sets and how much do they result in matchup dependence?

 

[HailFall]

I know i just posted here but the update came so i guess ill share my thoughts on this slate. (btw idk if this is intentional or not but the OP still has the first slate on it)

C+ -> B-: Neutral, leaning no
Zapdos provides some interesting role compression that some builds appreciate so its not absolutely terrible. It has a job and its good at what it does. Thats definitely more than can be said for mandibuzz, so why not let it rise right? Well I'm not sure i would say Zapdos is better than stuff like Victini, Mega Garchomp, or Zygarde all of which have clear cut niches that theyre good at (like Zapdos). On the other hand, Mandibuzz is heavily pressured by hazards, status, and other forms of chip damage when trying to do its jobs. In addition mandibuzz is painfully passive, relying on foul play to do any significant damage and hardly being able to touch things that resist it. Im much more tempted to say that mandibuzz should drop and zapdos should stay where it is than to say zapdos should rise and mandibuzz should stay, but im not totally opposed to the latter.

B+ -> B: Yes
As much as I love Mega Alt this metagame is so unkind to it. Steels are everywhere in this meta which makes actually finding a chance to sweep nearly impossible. The offensive DD set is walled by so much if it only runs one coverage move, and if it runs both fire blast and eq its near impossible to set up as it lacks roost. The DDD set feels very awkward as a defensive mon, getting so easily pressured by stuff like hazards and status (even with heal bell just the damage turns some 3hkoes into 2hkoes) and trying to consistently check the things its supposed to like mega heracross, thundurus, and keldeo just feels like a fighting a losing battle as youre basically forced to roost after coming in on these pokemon and by doing that you forfeit momentum to your opponent (malt really really wishes it had lefties tbh). Special attacker is probably its best set atm because it doesnt require setting up but that set struggles with getting worn down and even then stuff like amoonguss which can eat a fire blast easily is really common. Definitely not on par with most of the other B+ stuff like amoonguss, latias, or chansey.

A- -> A: Yes
Thundurus is such a threat its insane. All it needs is thunderbolt and hp ice, then it can pick and choose its checks and counters by running nasty plot, focus blast, thunder wave, sludge wave, taunt, psychic, knock off, etc. Its such a versatile mon with tons of viable sets and two great abilities. Rocks weakness and general frailty kind of sucks but it does such a great job of pressuring builds on all ends of the spectrum thanks to its great power, speed, and coverage. The mixed set is also really good, swiftly taking care of people who try to revenge thundy with latios and such. Thundurus is very difficult to prepare for and it truly sets itself apart by bypassing standard electric checks with its coverage like ttar, hippo, amoonguss, etc. It definitely deserves to rise imo.

 

[kek123]

Keldeo A+ -> S rank

There was really no reason ever given for keldeo moving down to A+ rank over than the ranking system becoming tighter and I personally I never really got why there was any reason for keldeo moving down sure it not good as clef but I think it nearly as good and deserves S ranks more because it silly imo to say that keldeo is the same ranks as the over A+ ranks mons also it does so much more than many of them .Also keldeo is very good a find way around it counter thought different hidden powers and scald burns lot of keldeo counter are more checks that can switch until it gets a scald burn than counters for example latios has to run roost to have any chance of dealing with keldeo also after burn hydro or secret sword does more than half and HP bug which is my Favorited HP on keldeo at the moment does 60 min so if you pairing keldeo with any mons that like free switches into latios its going to do well since latios is always forced to roost on the switch ,I'd also like to point out most of keldeo counters other than latios which was just discussed are no very meta at the moment and are rarly seen .Also I would like to point out that keldeo also pair well with lando-t one of the best wall at the moment i'd even go as far to say keldeo is the best offensive mon to pair with as it deal with mega scizor weavile and bisharp the tree mons that I would say lando-t struggles to deal with also keldeo gain massively with the momentum gaining power of lando-t which show how the meta suits keldeo.

Keldeo is also very splash-able as it add no massive weakness to any particle mon and many of keldeo's common counter can be hard counter by one mon for example latios/latias being hard counted by t-tar also keldeo being able to hit on both the physical side and special side with secret sword means you don't have to about having to many attack the hit on the same side making it even more splash-able also keldeo can play in many role set up sweeper (cm sub) scarf and spec although specs is the main it has tones of viable set yet again adding to it spashabillty. Also keldeo need so little support to work and at the same time it benefit some much from things like volt-turn which with so many popular defensive mons getting volt-turn e.g rotom-w lando-t possible the two best physical wall right now at the same time I know that other mons benefit from momentum gaining mons but keldeo gains alot since it has such wall breaker powers.

over all we all know keldeo is very viable i'm just looking for answer why keldeo inst S ranks because I really don't get it we really never got a reason for keldeo moving down as it moved down when we got the new tread and no one questioned it. I do want to acknowledge that keldeo has problem but I don't think there enough to keep it out of S rank. let me leave it with this when was the last time a viable team was made with out keldeo counter/checks like wise when was a viable team last made with out clefable checks even HO runs latios for keldeo. Any I just really want a debate about keldeo I just want to say I dont care if people i'm wrong I just want the reasoning we never got for keldeo moving down. (Apologies if the was one and I missed it!)

 

[Gary]

Also to add onto the discussion slate because bludz is hot garbage and forgot to add them in:

Bisharp A- -> A: Although I can't personally get behind the nom, this has definitely been brought up a lot recently and I think it should get more discussion. Bisharp is just really hard to deal with at times especially if it manages to get up an SD versus something like Ferro or a choiced T-tar, because even if you pack resists it's pretty much guaranteed to get a kill or at least 2HKO something the next turn. Despite having plenty of solid checks most of them can't switch in multiple times and can easily be put in range of a +2 Sucker Punch, like Mega Diancie for example. Its main issues is that it struggles to fit onto a lot of builds because of its lower Speed, as well as relying heavily on Sucker Punch 50/50s to sweep, and it really needs a boost behind its belt to really break anything. Most importantly it does face a lot of competition from Weavile as a Dark-type, because Weavile is just a whole lot easier to slap onto more builds because of its insane Speed stat and ability to check a lot of prominent threats. On top of that its switch-ins can't reliably check it as consistently as Bisharp, because it can outspeed and pick them off if they're low enough, and of course flinch them too.

Mega Metagross A- -> A: This has been brought up a few times as well, and a couple people on the ranking team can get behind it. It's a very threatening offensive threat that has some pretty prominent answers, mainly Mega Scizor and Rotom-W, but otherwise it's a pretty difficult Pokemon to play around that can be devastating to teams because of how difficult it is to kill it at full health. It's also strong enough to where outside of its few counters not much can really switch into it consistently, and it has good enough coverage that you can't really rely on Slowbro, Ferrothorn, or Lando-T to wall it consistently. It's a huge pain in the ass versus frailer builds because of its combination of bulk and power, and with options like Pursuit it can heavily punish Latis as well as a few other things. It's definitely one of the more consistent Pokemon in A-, and despite its shortcomings it high usage in many tour scenes proves it effectiveness. Most of its recent spike in usage probably comes from its ability to check Mega Diancie and ClefGod quite consistently, and it with its boltbeam coverage it capatilizes a lot on teams that rely on Lando-T, Skarm, and Slowbro to deal with it. It's definitely something that people tend to overlook when team building and outside of its few hard counters it can be very troublesome. Personally I could go either way because I do agree that A- is underselling it a bit but the huge spike in Rotom-W and Mega Scizor is definitely something that hurts it.

 

[p2]

tran to a+ :d

insanely splashable rocker, stallbreaker as well as blanket check to a billion thingd in the meta. stallbreaking capabilities are very solid as it pressures all stall builds w taunt + a shit ton of passive damage from plume/mstorm+tox. its also stupidly annoying to wear down since it just toxs water and ground switchins etc

keeps the ever omnipresent mega zor in check too :D

more or less wanted to bring this up as a discussion point of sorts since this slate is fairly small, ill elaborate on points in the morning if needed

 

[Q10jj34eeDnK]

A to A+

Azumarill's matchup against the tier has gotten better lately. For one, Volcanion and Mega Venusaur have decreased in usage. Things like Sand have been common lately too and Azumarill can beat a lot of the best Pokemon in the tier reliably. (Keldeo, Mega Diancie, Tyranitar, etc.). Belly Drum sets also have a tendency to be obnoxiously hard to stop, and the things that can stop it haven't been very common lately.

Pretty short nom but it gets the message across.

 

[false]

I actually really enjoyed writing up my opinions about the last slate, so I thought I'd comment on the new one. Hele we go.

Mega Altaria's case is really a shame because it's not like it's a particularly bad Pokemon, but it continues to struggle more and more with each metagame change to the point where I think you'd be hard pressed to find a reason not to drop it again. Clefable, Steel-, and Fire-types are just as omnipresent as ever, and I just don't really think you can justify Mega Altaria staying in B+ at this point. The current B+ ranking houses Pokemon such as Chansey, Suicune, and Hippowdon which are arguably all more effective at performing their defensive niche when compared to Mega Altaria, whom I think would be much more at home amongst the likes of Gastrodon, Quagsire and Togekiss in the B rank.

Arguably one of the biggest jumps on the entire VR goes from A- to A. Most of the Pokemon in the A and above rank are staples for their respective playstyles (Talonflame, Mega Sableye, Garchomp) as opposed to highly viable, but not quite staple Pokemon in the A- ranking (Serperior, Terrakion, Skarmory). So I think this nom can be simplified by simply asking whether you believe Thundurus is a staple Pokemon for offense builds or not. Personally I believe that it is. Offensive Electric-types can be some of the most threatening Pokemon in the entire game, and Thundurus is the only offensive Electric in the entirety of the A subrank. Thundurus' pseudo-BoltBeam coverage is incredibly hard to switch into, and considering the prospect of Nasty Plot, Thunder Wave, Grass Knot, Focus Blast, HP Flying, Knock Off, and Superpower, Thundurus has the ability to threaten almost every switchin that one could think of. Defensively its typing is fantastic, being one of a very small group of offensive Pokemon able to reliably check threatening Flying-types such as Talonflame, Tornadus-T, and Mega Pinsir, whilst also being a Ground immunity. The only real downside being that Stealth Rock can be a thorn in its side occasionally. All in all Thundurus is an excellent Pokemon that is absolutely a staple for many offensive builds and, in my opinion, deserves a rise to reflect this.

Yes, Bisharp is an extremely threatening Pokemon that can prove incredibly hard to deal with sometimes. No, it should not rise. Bisharp is in a pretty similar situation to a few other Pokemon in the A- rank such as Mega Pinsir and Mega Charizard Y. Whilst these Pokemon are easily some of the most threatening in the entire tier, and in the right matchup can almost 6-0 a team from preview, they are equally as flawed, and will see a similar number of matchups where they will not be able to pull their weight due to these flaws. In the case of Mega Pinsir and Mega Charizard Y, Stealth Rock weakness combined with a large number of splashable and viable hard check/counters is that flaw. In Bisharp's case, low Speed, and somewhat unreliable priority are these flaws. Bisharp best matchup is easily against offense where it is easily better than a A- Pokemon. Most of its checks are either one-time switchins, or are otherwise easily worn down. Non-attacking moves are less common, so Bisharp's Sucker Punch is usually effective. However, all matchups aren't against offense, and Bisharp's flaws really come through against bulkier offense or balanced builds. A lack of overall bulk will make switchin opportunities tough, and the abundance of Pokemon such as Keldeo, Tank Garchomp, Mega Scizor, Scarf Tyranitar, and fast Heatran mean that there's usually multiple Pokemon that it has to go through before it can sweep. Against stall, sturdy walls like Quagsire and Skarmory are able to switch in reliably, and repeatedly without fear, and will render close to deadweight without a few lucky breaks for the Bisharp user. Bisharp is by no means a bad Pokemon, but its a bit too matchup reliant, and, in my opinion, is not quite effective in enough matchups to warrant a rise.

As soon as people started realising they could drop Zen Headbutt for BoltBeam punches Mega Metagross got a whole lot better. It's fallen a bit from grace since the time in which it was almost banned, and really struggled to keep up with the metagame shifts. However, it's come back around and I think you're going to find it hard to justify not giving a rise to a Pokemon 700 BST, incredible bulk, Speed, and Attack that has maybe 2 viable, reliable counters. In short, Mega Metagross hits fast and hard, has incredible bulk that makes it hard to trade with. Combine that with a small number of viable switchins, and a great typing to be able to answer to Pokemon like Latios and Clefable. I think that's ok for A.

Comments on the other noms

Keldeo A+ -> S - kek123
I don't agree with this nom. As specified, S rank is reserved for the best Pokemon in the game. Keldeo is obviously not as good as Clefable, and I'm not even sure you could argue that it's a clear #2 right now next to a Pokemon like Landorus. Yes Keldeo is splashable, yes its really good, but thats why its A+ rank, because its of a very select group of Pokemon that is arguably one of the best in the game. I guess if you made Clefable S+, and then moved Landorus, and Keldeo to S, then I could see this. However, that's not going to happen, and Keldeo just doesn't quite define or control the metagame to the extent that Clefable can and does.

Heatran A -> A+ - p2
Yeah this makes sense. Fast utility Heatran is amazing right now and is easily one of the best supportive Pokemon in the entire tier. Its one of the few Pokemon that gets Rocks vs Sableye. Its defensive capability is easily similar to the likes of other A+ ranked Pokemon like Latios and Mega Scizor, so I think this nom is fair.

Azumarill A -> A+ - Q10jj34eeDnK
Whilst Mega Venusaur's drop in usage looks good for Azu, the increase in Tangrowth, Amoonguss, and Rotom-W make it a bit tough to justify a rise in my opinion. I kinda see both sides of the coin here. You specifically stated the increase in sand as a positive for Azumaril, however the majority of sand builds carry one of the aforementioned bulky Grass-types, and usually a secondary Water resist as well. I'm not sure that's a point in either way for Azumarill. It's not like it finds switchin opportunities against the likes of Tyranitar or Excadrill, which can hit it very hard with the likes of Stone Edge, or Earthquake/Iron Head respectively. Azumarill is also a Water resist, but is really annoyed by Scald. Low Speed can be a problem too. I get that Azu is really good because it hits so hard and has so few switchins. It definitely has a case for A+, but I'm just not sure if I'm with it

 

[Icing On Da Cake]

Thundurus: Rise from A- to A
Unlike its Electric-type brethren, Thundurus actually has the ability to break through (or at least greatly annoy) typical checks to Electrics. Mixed sets do an excellent job of luring in Lati@s and Chansey, with Knock Off being an overall great move to cripple/ kill checks (Chansey loses Eviolite, Fat Heatran and Clefable loses Leftovers, and Lati@s takes a ton/dies). Nasty Plot Thundurus also does a good job of wallbreaking, breaking through things like Clefable and Mega Latias much easier (albeit it's a bit hard to set up unless you wait for the perfect opportunity due to its frailty / revenge killers or just set up early to do some major damage later on). To top it off, it has many solid move choices in its arsenal, which include Thunder Wave, Grass Knot, Focus Blast, Superpower, Sludge Wave, and Hidden Power Ice / Flying, so it has a degree of unpredictability. While some common things, like Weavile, Rushing Excadrill, Clefable, Tyranitar, and a few other things do hamper its effectiveness (to an extent), it does an excellent job of wearing down the opponent's team and just being a big threat in general to many teams. If you wanna stop Weavile and Scarf LandoT from revenge killing you, try Yache and Charti Berry out I swear they arent bad

Mega Metagross: Rise from A- to A
Yeah, this thing is still a legitimate threat. The combination of its all around great stats (strong, fat, AND fast af), nice movepool, and decent typing give it some desirable traits in the OverUsed metagame. While things like Mega Scizor can eat up its hits without too much issue (HP Fire tho), it has the ability to pressure much of its checks with the appropriate move. Tired of Slowbro and Skarmory? Use Thunder Punch. Tired of Hippo? Use Grass Knot. Tired of LandoT? Use Ice Punch. Want to revenge kill threats? Try Bullet Punch. Wanna go for a lategame sweep. Try out Agility / Rock Polish (same shit). Want to trap Lati@s to support Keldeo? Use Pursuit. Point is, its moveset can easily be tailored to your team's needs, and while it can't use all these moves at once, it doesn't actually negatively impact Mega Metagross in a significant way due to its otherwise solid performance elsewhere, like providing a decent check to Lati@s, Fairies, and Keldeo.

 

[Garchomp for president]

C+ -> B- : No

I love the way HailFall puts it. Has a specific niche just like Vic and Mega Chomp and deserves to stay in that lot

B+ -> B : Yes

Mega-Altaria is one of those pokemon that has so much potential, but is stuck in such a harsh metagame for it to compete in. It lacks coverage, has subpar speed and possesses a weakness to Bullet Punch to list a few problems off of my head. I think lowering it's Rank to B is a perfect placement for it, as it is definitely a niche mega and should be ranked as such. Comparing it to other B list pokemon such as Mega Aero or DKnight, Mega Altaria finds itself at home.

(Thundy and Keldeo aren't in MD2 ._.)

A- -> A : Yes

The best Prankster user bar none. Good speed and special attack stat make it a potent threat offensively, while Thunder Wave and Tuant often times make Thundy much more than a slight nuscance the other prankster users can be. Has intresting boosting options with Agility of Nasty Plot to put icing on the cake. Often, Thundy also acts as an emegancy check to nearly all offensive pokemon with it's priority Thunder Wave. In Rank A, I would compare Thundurus to the likes of Weavile and Ferrothorn, which have their solid niche's in OU.

A+ -> S : No

Keldeo is a good pokemon and all, but it is definitely not S quality. Just comparing it to the likes of Latios, Lando-T, Rotom-W, Mega-Scizor, these are all fantastic monsters that you can slap on literally any team. Personally I think Latios and Lando-T are more viable just because of Lando-T's multiple niches and Latios' strong Draco and fast Defog. I think the biggest reason Keldeo is A+ ranked and not S ranked however is because of the amount of roles Keldeo plays compared to Clefable. While Keldeo has Choice Scarf and Choice Specs sets and maybe a Sub CM set (generally, all aimed at offense and breaking the same kids of threats), Clefable has not only a healthy amount of roles, but a diverse variety. Clefable has so many viable options such as Unaware Wall, Magic Guard CM Sweeper, Steath Rocker and Tank Clef, on top of options like Thunder Wave, Wish, Heal Bell and even Flamethrower to obliterate what would be a counter in opposing Steel types.

 

[squidlick]

Keldeo to S: Disagree

I wouldn't call Keldeo meta-defining in the same way Clefable is. And Clefable has set a pretty high standard for what it takes to be an S ranked mon. Clefable's best set combines wincon, pivot, status absorber/spreader and sweeper all in one with reliable recovery to boot. Keldeo cannot come close to boasting this, which is why it's in A+ as opposed to S. It's still a great mon, but by no means cut for an S ranking.

Mega Metagross to A: Agree

MegaGross is my go to MeVo and/or Steel-type in most cases so I agree with this rising. Late-game it can clean quite remarkably once Scarfers and priority users are out of the picture and the opponent's team is weakened. And while I may be an outlier in this regard, I like using a specialized Hone Claws set with Bullet Punch, Zen Headbutt and Earthquake or Hammer Arm for sweeping(though this Boltbeam combo some mentioned sounds appealing so I might try it). Depends on what MegaGross' teammates can wear down better than it. Regardless, MegaGross is a threat that's hard to ignore lest it gets through your supposed answers to it.

Heatran to A+: Agree

What a remarkable mon. Blanket checks a number of threats(but screw twave fable :[ ) and has a number of options as to what it can do. Specially defensive, Scarfer, rocks setter, it's got the versatility. A+ would be indicative of its defensive and offensive prowess.

Mega Altaria to B: Agree

Big shame that an otherwise impressive mon like MegAltaria is bogged down by an increasingly unforgiving meta. Weak to two forms of priority, below average speed, and competes for that Mega Slot; and with the plethora of Megas that can provide more defensive and offensive variety(in spite of MegAltaria's exclusive typing), B represents just how much it struggles for a team slot.

 

[ceal]

Megagross to A: Agree
Metagross has almost everything going for it: power, incredible bulk for an offensive mon, a good speed tier, a great ability powering up most of its attacking options, and a solid movepool allowing it to perform several roles such as a pursuit trapper, lure with Hp Fire and/or GK, a sweeper with RP/Agility, or just a general all-around wallbreaker (bolt-beam punch is popular as ever but the dual-stab combo is still solid.) Rotom and Megazor are common stops to it but imo that shouldn't hold it back from being A, since there are mons in that rank that share similar issues (Medicham and Azu immediately come to mind) and even then Megagross can lure in and beat Sciz with the aforementioned HP Fire. Rise to A.

Heatran to A+: Agree
The fast support set is so good rn, being a blanket check to a large amount of threats (dragons, fairies, fires, etc.) and providing a ton of utility with rocks, the ever-incredible taunt + toxic combo, and being able to lure checks like lando with HP Ice. Rise to A+.

Thundurus to A: Agree
As much as electrics as gone down in viability lately, Thundy is still as viable as ever I feel. It has way more power over Manetric and Raikou (can people please stop using Raikou so it can drop to UU already <.<) and has much better coverage, as well as being able to run multiple viable sets. The main thing that makes Thundy an A mon imo is its versatility and being able to threaten a ton of archetypes with the right sets (prankster t-wave threatens offense obviously and NP and the mixed attacker set can dismantle bulkier builds.) while having a ton of versatility even in its rather unexplored options (Sludge Wave seems appealing as it can lure in and beat Clef, one of Thundy's better checks.) Rise to A.

 

[Gary]

Keldeo A+ -> S: Yeah no. Keldeo was only S rank in the old VR because S rank wasn't nearly as strict as it is now, and pretty much any major metagame staple could find itself in S rank at some point if it was a step above most of the metagame, and Keldeo and Torn-T were definitely that. Now S rank is only home to Pokemon with VERY little flaws, shape the metagame, and are rarely deadweight in almost any kind of matchup. At the moment, Keldeo is definitely not more worthy of a rise to S rank compared to Latios, Lando-T, or Mega Diancie. It's splashable, strong as hell, and provides many teams with a check to many dangerous offensive threats. However, the meta hasn't really changed much in Keldeo's favor recently to put it in the same rank as Clefable. Amoonguss' increase in viability over Mega Venusaur is actually bad for it, because while Mega Venu is bulkier, it's much more prone to hazards, Scald burn, and a major reliance on a low PP, semi-reliable healing move. Rotom-W is a pain for it as well because it can tank Scalds comfortably and use it as free momentum, and then of course you have the usual Latios, Torn-T, Mega Latias, Clefable, Mega Diancie, Slowking, Azumarill, etc. It just has a lot of counterplay compared to Clef, and while it's always a pain in the ass and a very good Pokemon, it's definitely deadweight versus fat teams that pack Amoonguss and it really hates the influx in Mega Latias.

Thundurus A- -> A: Thundurus is far better than most of the Pokemon found in A-, because it's easily a metagame staple. It's one of the only Electric-types in the tier that really doesn't give a fuck about the current meta trends as it has options to deal with bulky grounds, Amoonguss, Latis, and many other things found on Sand. I'm not a huge fan of T-wave sets, but NP 3 attacks is very strong and mixed can be a pretty big problem for teams that depend a lot on Latios and fat Heatran or Chople T-tar as their check to it. Its just really solid and easy to slap onto a lot of teams because of how useful its typing is offensively and even defensively.

Heatran A -> A+: I can get behind this. Heatran is an extremely influential Pokemon offensively and defensively because of its fantastic supporting movepool which allows it to shutdown a lot of fat teams while still posing as a threat. It's easily the best Clefable check in the tier, as prevents it from setting up Calm Minds or spamming yellow magic, and it's one of the most reliable Stealth Rockers because of its insane amount of resistances and bulk. As said above, Heatran is one of the very few good rockers that can actually beat Mega Sableye 1v1, because the most it can do back is Knock Off or spam Recover, but it will eventually be worn down my Lava Plume burns, and Wisp variants can abuse Magic Bounce by giving themselves a free Flash Fire boost. While it's 4x weakness to Ground sucks in a very EQ heavy meta, offensive sets with Balloon can heavily punish them with HP Ice. Surf Latios is a bit more common than usual, but HP Fire is still the more common option due to Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn, so it's still one of the best switch-ins to it in the tier. So all in all, while it may not be as stupid as Mega Diancie or Torn-T offensively, I think its still easily on par with them because of its insane utility, as well as outstanding offensive and defensive versatility. It's easily one of the most well rounded Pokemon in the tier as it just provides teams with so much role compression in one slot.

Mega Altaria B+ -> B: The only arguments I see these days defending Mega Alt to stay in B+, are the ones that praise its ability to run a lot of different set combinations. What people fail to realize, is that practically all of these sets are ineffective, thus not making it versatile, and instead an outclassed pile of shit. Mixed Mega Alt is the only somewhat effective set at the moment because it capitalizes on teams that depend on Amoonguss and fat Steels to deal with it. Regardless, Mega Diancie gives it insane competition as an offensive Fairy, Clefable provides much better defensive utility, and Mega Gardevoir is a more effective hole puncher. It's slow, not very strong without set up, and depending on its set, it's either walled by so much shit or suffers from being easily revenge killed. As of now Mega Venusaur and Mega Slowbro share a rank with it, and both are exceptionally better because they're still quite threatening despite their Mega slot competition. Mega Alt fits better in B with Mega Aero because while both can be effective in the right matchup, they just face way too much competition as Megas and suffer from meta trends.

 

[detviech]

Thundurus from A to A+: Agree
I was actually also planning to make a nomination lol.
Even tho Thundurus isn't like a super top tier threat right now, like it used to be back then it is still a big threat to most playstyles depending of the set. Idk who said this in the metagame discussion, but the person said that many offensive builds have a core being lando, keld, and latios and a steel type for synergy. Thundurus can potentially beat all of them, which makes it a huge threat for these types of teams. many people are also using their latios as a all around electric check, but lati is not a good thundurus check, because moves like knock off exist and lati doesn't appreciate being paralysed. and ofc it is kinda not easy to predict what set it is running, for example chansey is a counter for the standart 3 attack twave set but not one for the mixed set. yeah but ofc it is very easy to wear it down, with rocks up and potentially sand damage + life orb. but nonetheless it definitely deserves the rise to A.

Heatran from A to A+: Agree
I really like the fast sets right now because it literally beats every set of mega scizor unless you switch into a superpower but then you're bad lol which is a huge threat right now in my opinion. getting twaved from clef kinda sucks but it can still beat the best mon in the tier pretty convincingly which speaks for the rise. in my opinion its like between A and A+ which sounds kinda weird, but if i have to choose between A and A+ for heatran I would say A+

sry for potentially bad english i'm german

 

[bludz]

For all the people on the Mega Meta train: do you think it's the best Mega in A-? I think a major thing to consider here is whether it's better than (Mega) Alakazam or Latias. The other is whether it matches up to the Megas already in A. Meta trends aside, Lopunny is an extremely restricting mon for offense, Medicham is an issue all around, and Sableye is also very restricting. ZardX is kinda under the radar but it's not a mon you ever wanna give free turns, plus it counters Scizor which is pretty big. Is Metagross really on the same level as these others? Or is it just better than some A- mons like Pinsir and Gardevoir?

As for Heatran I think this is a solid discussion point. It acts as extremely potent glue mon, and fulfills many important roles for a team, which is an indication it might warrant a rise.

 

[Jaroda]

Zapdos vs Mandibuzz is an interesting comparison. Either can have more merit depending on your team composition. If you have a Mega Diancie for example, Zapdos is a natural counter to Scizor, great for resisting Bullet Punch and being immune to EQ, while threatening Water types with its STAB, and is great against Steel types in general (not named Heatran) with access to Heat Wave. On the other hand Mandibuzz has Overcoat and far more bulk (90/85/90 vs 110/105/95), meaning it fairs better against Sand, and doesn't have a Ground weakness when it Roosts unlike Zapdos. It's also nice for having a Dark resist that isn't weak to Fighting, and Taunt/Whirlwind are good against other set-up pokemon in general, preventing Clefable from using Calm Mind or Thunder Wave for example. And with fewer Electric types in general as well as M-Altaria, this also benefits Mandibuzz slightly more. I think it really comes down to your team and if you need the bulk of Mandibuzz for BO, or Zapdos' unique resists and offensive presence for a balance team. I can't think of one being clearly more viable than the other and thus being ranked the same perfectly justifiable.

Heatran I agree for A+. It's one of those pokemon like Rotom-W that has just such a good typing that it can be the foundation of so many cores and cover resistances that your team is lacking. A Fire immunity can not be understated for a Steel type, and resistances to Ice, Dragon, Bug, Steel, Flying, Grass and Fairy all in one place can with its amazing defenses, on top of its incredible role compression between spreading burns, laying rocks, trapping, phazing, or being a lure, it can do it all.

Mega Metagross should stay A-. As bludz mentioned, it's not bad by any means, but its absolutely in the right tier based on its competition. While its certainly bulky as anything and resisting SR is nice, not having recovery or a good boosting move, and having a Pursuit weakness, makes it a bit less reliable as a mega Steel type like Scizor.

 

[Martin]

Zapdos and Mandibuzz are similar in the respect that they are both defensive Flying-types and they are potential Defoggers which aren't really amazing choices for said role due to the SR weakness. While I see the merits of Defog on Zapdos due to the fact that Defog sets don't really have much they would want to be running over it anyway combined with the nice role compression that you get from the combination of it's typing, good defenses, Pressure and Defog, I would never consider using Mandi as my choice of Defogger over its other utility options simply because the other options it has access to are just so much better on it than Defog. Namely, the variant that I would be most inclined to run on it would be Foul Play+Roost+Taunt/KOff+Toxic. I think that you'd need a pretty good reason to run Koff+Taunt on it as opposed to Toxic simply because of how passive it is in general, and it simply doesn't have "room" on the set to sacrifice anything for Defog. This is what I think puts Zapdos slightly ahead of Mandibuzz: it can provide this invaluable support without sacrificing overall utility due to the fact that Defog is it's primary utility in terms of moveset. Of course, Zapdos can also run a good SubToxic set if it wants to due to the utility provided by Pressure, it's defensive typing luring low-pp moves like Stone Edge and walling others like Gyro Ball and it's ability to lure out and beat most Ground-types, and this lends itself to the idea that Zapdos is more versatile, and in general Zapdos' typing makes it that bit more splashable than Mandibuzz is as a defensive Flying-type--and as such it's pretty safe to say that it is better than Mandibuzz imho.

That said, whether Zapdos should rise or not is another matter. Sure, it's better than Mandibuzz, but it is most certainly not as good as something like Mamoswine or Hydreigon or Kabutops or Alomomola are in their respective roles (I'd compare it to another Defog user but there aren't any in B- to compare it to :/). In addition, I can't personally see Mandibuzz on the same level as the other C+ ranks, and would even argue that Seismitoad is a better Pokémon when you consider their effectiveness in their respective roles. Similarly, I could see arguments for saying that Toxicroak and Entei are both better, and this begs the question of whether instead of Zapdos rising Mandibuzz should drop. I'm not going to expand though because I don't really feel particularly strongly on the matter and also respect potential disagreements regarding things I said that I think are better being better. Also, at the end of the day, you can compare Zapdos and Mandibuzz as defensive Flying-types all you want but at the end of the day which is better is entirely dependent on the team--turning the entire past two paragraphs into semantics. As this is a resource for newer players, I personally think that the viability gap between Zapdos and Mandibuzz should be represented, but I do not think that Zapdos should rise and--as such--think that the better course would be to drop Mandi.

 

[Gotham-Mimiqui]

For all the people on the Mega Meta train: do you think it's the best Mega in A-? I think a major thing to consider here is whether it's better than (Mega) Alakazam or Latias. The other is whether it matches up to the Megas already in A. Meta trends aside, Lopunny is an extremely restricting mon for offense, Medicham is an issue all around, and Sableye is also very restricting. ZardX is kinda under the radar but it's not a mon you ever wanna give free turns, plus it counters Scizor which is pretty big. Is Metagross really on the same level as these others? Or is it just better than some A- mons like Pinsir and Gardevoir?

As for Heatran I think this is a solid discussion point. It acts as extremely potent glue mon, and fulfills many important roles for a team, which is an indication it might warrant a rise.

There are a ton lot of things going for Mega Metagross, and a few, but radical that are not. Mega Metagross has, is still, and will probably always be a huge threat thanks to its confortable speed tier, huge ass power thanks to Tough Claw that acts as his non-recoil LO boost that allows it to run jolly, and finally his amazing bulkand respectable defensive typing that gives it just enough turns to dig holes in the opposite team. That being said, it is susceptible to the ever dominant yellow magic and burns, except if it runs refresh, but he just doesnt have room for this. Everybody knows that almost all teams are now prepared to Mega Metagross, and, in particular, the reign of his steel comrade, Mega Scizor, against wich it cannot do a damn thing. His slight 4MS syndrome is a problem, but he can still lure his checks and counters (including Scizor) thanks to his splashable Special attack, but this isnt the best way to play the Pokémon. Theres also its annoying reliance on 90% accuracy STAB Moves, and the fact that the metagame didnt change in his favor, being extremely bulky, and his role against offensive teams being overshadowed by Mega Lopunny. Mega Metagross is one of the most interesting cases of a Mega to rank, but in my opinion, it should stay in A-.

Heatran, on the other hand, is a beast. Heatran is exceptionally good right now, both defensively and Offensively. I want to highlight the later, because his offensive sets are absolutely painful to deal with. Taunt, magma Storm, Stealth rock, Toxic, Heatran has absolutely everything going for it to be an annoyance to most teams. He can get past stall, he can switch in well against bulky offense/balance whatever your set because he always has great bulk and fantastic typing, and annoys a ton of stuff it lures in such as bulky Special walls including the Blob and water types, with the combination of Toxic, his amazing traping signature move, and above all Taunt, wich is a godsent to Heatran right now. Im definitively in favor of a raise for Heatran, to A+.

 

[HailFall]

mandibuzz is literally awful lol and raw bulk isnt enough to make up for its whole slew of negative attributes. Its also incredibly passive basically being unable to touch special attackers/support mons not weak to dark with any bulk at all since its so reliant on foul play to deal actual damage. With rocks up mandibuzz is very unimpressive having a good or garunteed chance to get 2hkoed by tons of shit it could roost on before. Like in a no-rocks meta mandibuzz could easily be B but when you look at these calcs it becomes clear just how terrible it becomes when dealing with rocks.

calcs

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 185-218 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 178-210 (42 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 188-224 (44.4 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 164-194 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 129-152 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (factoring in a flinch and the fact that mandi cant do jack shit back this is very bad)
252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 200-236 (47.2 - 55.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 183-216 (43.2 - 51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 168-198 (39.7 - 46.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 169-199 (39.9 - 47%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

on top of all this mandibuzz has awful 4mss, wanting foul play, knock off, taunt, toxic, defog, and roost while only being able to run four at a time, limiting the potential support it can provide to its team. skarm is basically mandibuzz but better in most situations tbh and mandibuzz's only real niches over it as a defensive bird is knock off, foul play, overcoat, and better special bulk.