-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
- Thread starter alex
- Start date
- Status
Overall, I saw more resistance for Shedinja moving down than Drapion. Both however were recommended often to be moved down, thus the medium-high and high ratings to move down.
Both were resisted, and I'm sure we'll test them before moving them down entirely.
Both were resisted, and I'm sure we'll test them before moving them down entirely.
I don't remember any talk about Flygon that was in favour of it being brought down after Forsety mentioned it, so I don't know why that is Medium. It seemed to be just as weak as for Miltank and Houndoom.
Regigigas, on the other hand, seemed to receive plenty of recommendation for UU, so that should be Medium at the very least, i.e. worth testing. There seems to be plenty of counters for it in UU.
I'm a little unsure about it. With Technician, STAB Aerial Ace and Quick Attack at its disposal, it may well prove to be unstoppable after a Swords Dance. It may not even need to run Jolly given that everything that falls in the 309-339 speed bracket would probably be torn apart by 60 power Quick Attack from that kind of attack. What might keep it there is its 4x Stealth Rock weak though, so I wouldn't mind testing it.
Regigigas, on the other hand, seemed to receive plenty of recommendation for UU, so that should be Medium at the very least, i.e. worth testing. There seems to be plenty of counters for it in UU.
I'm a little unsure about it. With Technician, STAB Aerial Ace and Quick Attack at its disposal, it may well prove to be unstoppable after a Swords Dance. It may not even need to run Jolly given that everything that falls in the 309-339 speed bracket would probably be torn apart by 60 power Quick Attack from that kind of attack. What might keep it there is its 4x Stealth Rock weak though, so I wouldn't mind testing it.
I'm fine with the list or BL/UU's presented.
Except Flygon needs moving down to low.
And Lemmiwinks Regigigas was one of the first things that cropped up in the thread really early on and general consensus was its defenses were too much to deal with.
If everyone else is fine with it I think the thread has really been done to death, theres actually something solid to present as a temporary finalization.
Except Flygon needs moving down to low.
And Lemmiwinks Regigigas was one of the first things that cropped up in the thread really early on and general consensus was its defenses were too much to deal with.
If everyone else is fine with it I think the thread has really been done to death, theres actually something solid to present as a temporary finalization.
Unless the summary raises up some sort of controversy, I think we're done.
EDIT: I'm an idiot. Crobat is listed as both banned and not discussed. I wonder how that happened.... I'll assume it is banned to BL. The rest of this post was what was once here, but I don't think I should delete it.
Oh yeah, Crobat. I kinda forgot about him hanging there on the bottom of the list. His advantage is solely his support movepool and speed. He does have taunt / nasty plot, but I doubt that will do him much good as his special attack coverage sucks ass.
Crobat is a jack of all trades, master of none. He can be a CB set with Brave bird, but there are clearly better pokemon for that job. He can be a nasty plotter, but then so can Ninetails. He makes a somewhat decent defensive type with roost and 115+ on defense tiers, as well as the movepool to do it (haze and whirlwind), but clearly Noctowl and others do better. Of course, he is the fastest hypnosis pokemon in the game aside from Yanmega, so I guess that super-fast hypnosis is the only thing crobat can do that no other pokemon can do... But that alone shouldn't ban him as Ninetales and Persian can do that too.
I'm for UU testing on this guy, unless some sort of damage calculation proves me otherwise wrong.
Oh yeah, Crobat. I kinda forgot about him hanging there on the bottom of the list. His advantage is solely his support movepool and speed. He does have taunt / nasty plot, but I doubt that will do him much good as his special attack coverage sucks ass.
Crobat is a jack of all trades, master of none. He can be a CB set with Brave bird, but there are clearly better pokemon for that job. He can be a nasty plotter, but then so can Ninetails. He makes a somewhat decent defensive type with roost and 115+ on defense tiers, as well as the movepool to do it (haze and whirlwind), but clearly Noctowl and others do better. Of course, he is the fastest hypnosis pokemon in the game aside from Yanmega, so I guess that super-fast hypnosis is the only thing crobat can do that no other pokemon can do... But that alone shouldn't ban him as Ninetales and Persian can do that too.
I'm for UU testing on this guy, unless some sort of damage calculation proves me otherwise wrong.
Aggron, Golem, and Claydol (if it's UU) will stop Scyther in it's tracks.
A lot of hard hitting Pokemon are being mentioned here. I think we should cull BL for some new physical walls if Scyther and Drapion are allowed. Hard hitting pokes like Kingler and Crawdaunt are already in UU, but they're not really fast enough to "sweep" per se, and can be killed by a faster poke. Scyther and Drapion have less attack power, but after a SD can effectively sweep. We need an extremely tough poke, like more Aggron style pokes allowed in UU. Tentacruel (barrier), Omastar, and Torkaol come to mind, but again, drapions with EQ dispatch those in one or two hits.
Some other walls the come to mind to help wall Drapion and friends include Rhydon, Gligar, Tangela, Sandslash, Claydol Cloyster, and Hitmontop (with intimidate). Of those two, Claydol and Cloyster are BL, but I think moving them down would be a good way to keep our teams safe from these new physical threats.
Hmm, a couple major flaws with my first list (including crobat in two different catagories). So let me try again.
BL waiting list. The ones to be removed.
-Feraligatr
-Typhlosion
-Crobat
-Azumarill
-Ursaring
-Slowking
-Mamoswine
-Ambipom
-Jumpluff
UU's to be tested.
-Walrein
-Glaceon
-Pinsir
-Cacturne
-Lapras
-Ninetales
-Poliwrath <--- couldn't find a better place to put him
-Hitmonlee
BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
Note: Weak recommendations are placed for historical purposes, so that we don't repeat say, the Miltank or Houndoom debate.
-Claydol (Very Strong)
-Cloyster (Very Strong)
-Torterra (High)
-Steelix (High)
-Drapion (High)
-Shedinja (Medium - high)
-Regigigas (Weak)
-Houndoom (Very Weak)
-Miltank (Very Weak)
-Flygon (Very Weak)
Widely Acceptable NFE's. (Debatable ones are in the other thread)
-Scyther
-Magmar
-Electabuzz
-Trapinch
-Poliwhirl
-Clamperl
-Vigoroth
-Pikachu
Non-obvious Banned NFEs
Snover
Hippopatas
So anyway, Skiddle, both Claydol and Cloyster are highly reccomended to be UU anyway. So I don't think these harder hitters would be that big of a problem. Also, Torkoal is UU and probably wouldn't have a hard time walling Scyther while threatening a fire attack.
BL waiting list. The ones to be removed.
-Feraligatr
-Typhlosion
-Crobat
-Azumarill
-Ursaring
-Slowking
-Mamoswine
-Ambipom
-Jumpluff
UU's to be tested.
-Walrein
-Glaceon
-Pinsir
-Cacturne
-Lapras
-Ninetales
-Poliwrath <--- couldn't find a better place to put him
-Hitmonlee
BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
Note: Weak recommendations are placed for historical purposes, so that we don't repeat say, the Miltank or Houndoom debate.
-Claydol (Very Strong)
-Cloyster (Very Strong)
-Torterra (High)
-Steelix (High)
-Drapion (High)
-Shedinja (Medium - high)
-Regigigas (Weak)
-Houndoom (Very Weak)
-Miltank (Very Weak)
-Flygon (Very Weak)
Widely Acceptable NFE's. (Debatable ones are in the other thread)
-Scyther
-Magmar
-Electabuzz
-Trapinch
-Poliwhirl
-Clamperl
-Vigoroth
-Pikachu
Non-obvious Banned NFEs
Snover
Hippopatas
So anyway, Skiddle, both Claydol and Cloyster are highly reccomended to be UU anyway. So I don't think these harder hitters would be that big of a problem. Also, Torkoal is UU and probably wouldn't have a hard time walling Scyther while threatening a fire attack.
WAIT WAIT WAIT, one more thing bothering me. Azumarril should be tested for UU. So many things wreck it in higher tiers, like Bulky Waters and Tangrowth.
Test it for UU. It's not as good as people think it is. It does 24 % to a not bulky Crawdaunt with CHOICE BAND... theres much more bulkeir stuff than Crawdaunt even in UU. Tangela comes to mind as THE counter for it.
God damn it. You have to post that _AFTER_ I posted my update Skiddle >_>
Okay, lemme wait a bit longer before posting revision 3. Just note that that version you quoted is slightly old.
Okay, lemme wait a bit longer before posting revision 3. Just note that that version you quoted is slightly old.
how it does in higher tiers is irrelevant. Tangela gets owned by Ice Punch, Crawdaunt by Return.
The thing has 400+ attack and a STAB priority move, and a combination of attack types not resisted in UU. Azu is BL, period. Tangela says hi to Ice Punch.
Something's usability in a higher tier doesn't affect it's position in a lower tier >_>
24%...with what attack?
For the record, Azumarill is just slightly less bulky than Kanga, and it has about 100 more attack (though it's slower). When I was doing damage calcs, IIRC Tangela took just over 53% from a CB Ice Punch with +2 attack (Pure Power doesn't seem to work right on MK's calc). And I'm guessing Crawdaunt will be destroyed by Return.
For the record...Azumarill's non-CB return does 27.66% - 32.74% to Quagsire, while with a CB it does 41.37% - 48.73%. Quagsire lacks reliable recovery or a real way to threaten Azumarill besides Toxic, though. Also, Tangela takes 58.98% - 69.46% from a CB Ice Punch, Meganium takes 59.62% - 70.05%. Focus Punch would do the same amount.
^all calcs done with +2 attack instead of Huge Power (like I said, for some reason Huge power gives less damage. Not sure why), and assume 252 hp/def, positive nature on the opposing pokes and 252/adamant on Azumarill.
Hmm, I just noticed Ursaring? 130 Atk is nice, but 55 speed is not. It can essentially run a flexible choice band / scarf except using flame or toxic orb... but that will hurt its survivability a lot.
Even with scarf / quick feet, Ursaring isn't the fastest guy with only 343 speed after the boost. Anyway, Pinsir probably has better coverage and I see him as a bigger threat compared to Ursaring. He seems test-worthy to me. He does seem strong for UU however.
Even with scarf / quick feet, Ursaring isn't the fastest guy with only 343 speed after the boost. Anyway, Pinsir probably has better coverage and I see him as a bigger threat compared to Ursaring. He seems test-worthy to me. He does seem strong for UU however.
Why you'd ever do that when you could simply F-Punch the sucker I don't know....
@Dragontamer
You've probably never played Advance UU but Ursaring tore up the game and you'd see one on almost every team. Swords Dance and Return with 130 attack traits and a considerable bulk is no laughing matter, not even the 600 club boast an attack stronger than that and Guts on top to boot or Quick Feet if its a late game sweeper.
This is not even comparable to anything like Pinsir, Hitmonlee or Kangaskhan. Ursaring is literally genocide on legs.
Not only are they already UU bound minus Rhydon. The very thought of Rhydon attempting to be a physical wall is laughable.
This isn't a rant at you in any way Deck Knight, I'm just quoting you to bring it to everyone's attention that Tangela isn't even considered allowed in UU at the moment, so bringing it up as a potential counter for anything is pointless. Same applies to Gligar and Rhydon, whom Skiddle also brought up.
Come on :-p Garchomp SD Earthquake has to be comparable to that :-p
Point taken. BL it is.
As for Ursaring...it seems extremely powerful. After a Swords Dance, LO return does:
94.51% - 111.26% to Meganium.
97.21% - 114.21% to Quagsire.
88.16% - 103.62% to Hitmontop (after intimidate)
With Crunch...
116.57% - 137.21% to Solrock.
Earthquake wrecks Torkoal and any Rock/Steel types, I don't feel the need to do calcs for that. It's decently beefy, and the only real problem is it's speed. Yeah, it seems like BL material.
94.51% - 111.26% to Meganium.
97.21% - 114.21% to Quagsire.
88.16% - 103.62% to Hitmontop (after intimidate)
With Crunch...
116.57% - 137.21% to Solrock.
Earthquake wrecks Torkoal and any Rock/Steel types, I don't feel the need to do calcs for that. It's decently beefy, and the only real problem is it's speed. Yeah, it seems like BL material.
Uhhhhhh, yeah. Theres only one problem here. Azumarrila CANT GET AQUA JET AND ICE PUNCH... in case you didn't know. You guys think slapping a choice band on any pokemon makes it dangerous or something? Let me point something out here.
Holy crap, with 654 attack, it can do a lot of damage. Oh, but whats this, a 60 base power attack. Oh my, thats gonna like OHKO so much stuff. Now, take into consideration all the UU grass types, all of whom are decently bulky (hi, Vileplume) and all the UU water types, also very bulky (I'm looking at Kingler and Quaggy) who can completely wall the Aqua Jet set. Once the secret's out that the Azumarril packs Aqua Jet, you can switch any grass type in because there's no Ice Punch.
Another thing. Any water type with 218 sp. attack or more can do just as much damage with hydro pump, correct? You don't see Choice Scarf Mudkip tearing up teams, do you? Didn't think so.
So, here's where it starts getting messy.
The biggest problem in dealing with Azumarril is finding out it's other moves. Anything with Protect can help you find out what it's got, because if it has Aqua Jet, it can't have ice punch, so Tangela, Vileplume, or Meganium can switch in for free, and sleep the opponents switch in. :P If it doesnt use aqua jet, it has a grand total of 199 max speed, so anything that isnt Slowpoke can outrun it and get a KO.
What if it uses return? Well, switch in Aggron of course, and focus punch their next pokemon.
What about Superpower? Well, then you have your selection of ghosts, or scyther, to switch in on it.
And, yeah, no one in their right mind CBs Focus Punch, unless you're really brave o_o
Waterfall is serious. It does twice as much as Aqua Jet, but doesnt go first. Basically, if it uses this, you're in trouble if you have no water resist. This is the only reason I can see that you might think it should be BL, because 120 BP of 654 attack hurts.
Thats pretty much the scope of the water rabbit's physical movepool.
Now, here's where I tear the stupid thing apart.
Ok, so we got Aqua Jet, Return, Focus Punch, Super Power, Brick Break, Double Edge, Waterfall, and Ice Punch.
*If you go for Aqua Jet, you can't have SuperPower or Ice Punch.
*If you go for Ice Punch, you can't have SuperPower or Aqua Jet.
So basically, heres your options.
-Aqua Jet/Ice Punch
-Return
-Brick Break/SuperPower/Focus Punch
-Waterfall
Doesn't look so dangerous when it basically lacks one key move no matter how you slice it. On Shoddy, this is different, because you can make the illegal movesets, but in the real game, this is what you get.
Now, the huge problem is... what, oh no, the CHOICE BAND. If you predict correctly, you can easily force Azumarril to flee from you, and set up on the switch, and laugh as you sweep THEIR team. You guys are all thinking, OH NO, azumarril can 2HKO my team if I'm stupid enough to switch in on a move thats good against my poke, and them be stupid enough to leave it in!!
So yeah, to make a long story short, any choice bander can fill Azumarril's shoes, and probably do jsut as good of a job, so I don't see what pokes like Kinger and the like don't get bumped up to BL, if azumarril does. Any pokemon can use the Choice Band, and some of them are fast enough that they don't need to use "quick attack" to get a hit in.
Ursaring also enjoys toxic orb (or a switch in on a status and instead a choice item) + quick feet + facade.
Facade has
210 base power when Ursaring is status-ed.
They have the same base attack stat (130), however Ursaring is often adamant instead of jolly and return has slightly more power then earthquake, while facade has even more then outrage (something SDchomp normally doesn't run) if this bear is running that over return, on the assumption that it can get status-ed.
Facade has
210 base power when Ursaring is status-ed.
Dragontamer said:
They have the same base attack stat (130), however Ursaring is often adamant instead of jolly and return has slightly more power then earthquake, while facade has even more then outrage (something SDchomp normally doesn't run) if this bear is running that over return, on the assumption that it can get status-ed.
Azumarill's not only stronger than Kingler it's bulkier than it too. A non-boosted Azu Double-Edge also 2HKO's Quagsire, which is saying something...
@skiddle
Azumarill has pretty decent defenses if you didn't know, and water is a pretty defensive type. Obviously if you can out predict something of course its going to give you advantegs, duh. Also you seem to assume that having a choice band is it's only option and without aqua jet it sucks and I don't think that's the case.
Azumarill has pretty decent defenses if you didn't know, and water is a pretty defensive type. Obviously if you can out predict something of course its going to give you advantegs, duh. Also you seem to assume that having a choice band is it's only option and without aqua jet it sucks and I don't think that's the case.
- Status