• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

Status
Not open for further replies.
Fishin said:
I agree, but if Kanga was allowed in UU and Solrock became it's #1 counter, Kanga has a pretty effective way of dealing with it. Worth making a note of IMO.

Though, actually, now that I look again it gets Shadow Claw as well.
Click to expand...
Why would it Shadow Claw when it can Crunch? It is 160 power against Solrock, slightly stronger than Focus Punch, so judging from those Focus Punch calcs, CB Crunch ought to be a guaranteed 2HKO.
 
Dragontamer said:
I think it is fair to assume that Kanga isn't going to be using Iron Tail as an attack. CB Focus Punch seems extremely risky and I'd never do it personally. I mean, all they gotta do is smack you and you're forced to switch out. I mean hell, Trapinch can defeat a CB Focus Punch Kanga, due to the negative speed priority >_>

Sub / Focus Punch seems far more likely than CB Focus Punch.



UU is the middle tier. NU is the next tier >_> Thats why I brought up the too many BL pokemon thing a while ago... but its too late to do anything really about the huge number of BL pokemon.
Click to expand...

The payoffs of a CB Focus Punch are good enough to take the risk. Imagine that you brought this thing in against Gligar(assuming its UU, I'm completely against it, hated thing since Advance because it would never die), your opponent knows that CB Return has a shot at 2HKOing, CB Ice Punch will OHKO. You Focus Punch as they bring out Aggron or Walrein to take the hit and laugh as it takes one hell of a dent.

The only thing CB FP needs is prediction, and in the hands of a decent player Kangaskhan will wreak havoc. And to anyone talking about Revenge killing, note that the absence of Arena Trap means that it can just switch out, as does the absence of strong Pursuiters. And if you're revenge killing, that means Kanga has already taken out a Pokemon. At the very least, you're not running at a loss.
 
Trapinch has Arena trap btw gmax, which is why I referred to it.

Anyway, I have yet to see a CB Focus Puncher in my entire battling experience, let alone one used correctly. I assume that you've used it gmax before with success? I do understand that my experience is relatively young on this forum (only ~3 to ~4 months) so it really is possible that its a good strategy I've never seen before.

But just letting you know where I'm coming from.

----

Anyway, even with Focus Punch, in the typical case, Kanga is going to be both faster with Return and dish out more damage. If you are playing conservatively, Return is the best option in most cases.
 
Heh, CBTar was one of the most dangerous Pokemon in Advance because it could hit SO many of its common Counters(Swampert, Milotic and Flygon) with CB Focus Punch. And while Return is a better option in most cases, when your opponent has one of those damn Walruses, you'll really enjoy watching it get KOd(93% min, so Spikes or Stealth Rock mean one dead Walrein) by Focus Punch.

Kangaskhan is definitely something that can hurt ANYTHING in UU, and it also has access to Crunch in case Claydol decides to show up in UU.

EDIT: So are NFEs being allowed into UU?
 
You left one very important matter out of the Tyrannitar point.

CBFocus Punch had high payoff because it was the most powerful attack T-Tar had. Do remember its STAB's back then were Rock Slide 112.5 and special Crunch 120 and for coverage Earthquake 100.

This is not the case with Khan.

Return 151 w/Scrappy, it still has access to a solid and more repeatedly usuable Hammer Arm 100 and Earthquake 100, therefore CB FP is NOT a good payoff on Khan. CB FP is only ever a good tradeoff in cases where you lack any moves which have the same kind of power. Furthermore CB FP is not really enough anyway when it already had the option in Advance and still remained UU.

If CB didn't unbalance it in Advance UU when it still possessed all those options it certainly wouldn't in a far more powerful D/P UU. It has to be something new to the table.

Scrappy is the obvious first look but the ghosts available in Advance UU were Banette, Missy, Sableye all of which who probably saw such a lack of usuage they were hardly ever around to eat the Return's and FP's. (Shedinja was a solid BL for all of Advance)

Crunch is nothing more than a substitute for Shadowball.

Clearly if something were to make it BL now that didn't have before, it'd logically have to be Avalanche, Hammer Arm or Sucker Punch.

On top of that CBKhan is a sucker for burn at least the normal Khan has ways with dealing with that. But even the normal Khan is essentially useless after getting burned since unlike many other sweepers it can't attempt to buff itself up to salvage something and doesn't have spectacular attack.
 
Well, with the new damage formula, attacks tend to do more damage, and anyway Kangaskhan used to totally dominate last gen UU. And I acknowledge your point about CBTar not having more powerful attacks, I wasn't really comparing them. Dragontamer was just saying that I must have used a CB SubPucnher at some point, and that happened to be CBTar.

And really, Focus Punch is there just to hit Walrein. Nothing else will hit it that hard.
 
Scrappy is the obvious first look but the ghosts available in Advance UU were Banette, Missy, Sableye all of which who probably saw such a lack of usuage they were hardly ever around to eat the Return's and FP's.
Click to expand...

Hmm not sure if I agree with that, in my experience of Advance UU both Banette and Misdreavus were fairly common, and I always made sure to have one or the other to counter Big Momma.

Its strange that given Kangaskhan's potential to dominate UU it doesn't seem to see much useage (at least on Shoddy) and so I never construct a team with the intent to counter it ... perhaps I should.
 
gmax said:
Well, with the new damage formula, attacks tend to do more damage, and anyway Kangaskhan used to totally dominate last gen UU. And I acknowledge your point about CBTar not having more powerful attacks, I wasn't really comparing them. Dragontamer was just saying that I must have used a CB SubPucnher at some point, and that happened to be CBTar.

And really, Focus Punch is there just to hit Walrein. Nothing else will hit it that hard.
Click to expand...

Scrappy Focus Punch is super-effective against Sableye and Froslass >_>.
 
Wait a sec, Frosslass has been decided as UU? OK, I was under the impression that it was BL. Haven't ever seen a Sableye in UU lol.
 
The only good stat Froslass has is speed. It may have better defenses than Gengar... but I think people don't exactly scoff at Froslass's base 80 attack / Sp. Atk, nor its 70/70/70 defenses.

It doesn't have enough defenses to be a good spiker (although it does learn spikes), bolt/beam is nice but it doesn't have the Sp. Atk to really pull it off well.
 
Thats true about Frosslass. But Destiny Bond at that speed is kind of tough to deal with. So whats the verdict on Kangaskhan?
 
gmax said:
And I acknowledge your point about CBTar not having more powerful attacks, I wasn't really comparing them. Dragontamer was just saying that I must have used a CB SubPucnher at some point, and that happened to be CBTar.
Click to expand...

I was just elaborating further why people would've used it so yeah I know where you were coming from.

Its strange that given Kangaskhan's potential to dominate UU it doesn't seem to see much useage (at least on Shoddy) and so I never construct a team with the intent to counter it ... perhaps I should.
Click to expand...
Who knows I know as far as I'm concerned I forgot its existance till I recently went fishing for a all-round sweeper which was rather bulkish.

Hmm not sure if I agree with that, in my experience of Advance UU both Banette and Misdreavus were fairly common, and I always made sure to have one or the other to counter Big Momma.
Click to expand...
Misdreavus was probably abit more common but I know a few people refrained from using it because it was too well rounded to provide an actual threat. While others just didn't like Perish trap for some odd reason which was the best option.

Banette on the other hand was just a pain to play properly, lethal with a good Baton Pass from Scyther but otherwise is really more annoyance. Its speed and defenses never really let it do much.

Also in D/P they have competition from the Drifblim whos a pretty beastly Ghost. I use one as a physical sponge as a matter of fact.

gmax said:
Thats true about Frosslass. But Destiny Bond at that speed is kind of tough to deal with. So whats the verdict on Kangaskhan?
Click to expand...
I'd just say leave it. It just hasn't changed that much from Advance.
 
gmax said:
Well, with the new damage formula, attacks tend to do more damage, and anyway Kangaskhan used to totally dominate last gen UU. And I acknowledge your point about CBTar not having more powerful attacks, I wasn't really comparing them. Dragontamer was just saying that I must have used a CB SubPucnher at some point, and that happened to be CBTar.

And really, Focus Punch is there just to hit Walrein. Nothing else will hit it that hard.
Click to expand...

Wait. Attacks do more damage now!? And they included the stupid life orb? Man, no wonder everything is a 2HKO.

I miss the old UU metagame...
 
I miss the old UU metagame...
Click to expand...

I miss there beng a UU metagame ... I don't have wi-fi and on Shoddy UU is so marginalised there are about two people (and one of them is me) who regularly play UU. There were more but then they introduced the ladder ...
 
How much exactly, has the damage formula changed? DO attacks do approx 10 % more? 20% more? No wonder my guys can't take hits anymore. Back in emerald, my crawdaunt could take a FOCUS PUNCH but now he gets killed by a couple brick breaks : (
 
Wait a bit. The damage formula in DP deals LESS damage than the one in ADV. What are you talking about?
 
Gmax said it dealt more. I've noticed it usually does more, too.

Well, the Focus Punch vs Brick Break could be that my old crawdaunt was Lax if the "lower damage" is the case o_o

EDIT: nvm, Gmax, not Shiney Oddish, said it dealt more.
 
Oddish said it dealt more.
Click to expand...

Nope not guilty ... I've never mentioned damage formulas in this thread. To summarise my last few posts ...

I didn't find ghosts uncommon in advance ...
Why isn't Kangaskhan being used more?
Shoddy sucks for UU.

Nothing about formulas there ...
 
Oh, something that caught my attention recently was Jumpluff being absent on the OU and BL lists, meaning it was eligable for UU.. something we might wanna look into. :p

And for the record, the UU list is starting to look like this as of now:

Absol
Aggron
Altaria
Ampharos
Armaldo
Banette
Blastoise
Butterfree
Cacturne
Camerupt
Carnivine
Chatot
Cherrim
Clamperl
Clefable
Cradily
Crawdaunt
Drifblim
Dunsparce
Electrode
Fearow
Froslass
Gastrodon
Girafarig
Glaceon
Golduck
Golem
Gorebyss
Granbull
Grumpig
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop
Huntail
Hypno
Kabutops
Kangaskhan
Kingler
Lanturn
Lapras
Linoone
Lopunny
Lunatone
Luxray
Manetric
Mantine
Meganium
Mightyena
Muk
Nidoking
Nidoqueen
Ninetales
Noctowl
Octillery
Omastar
Persian
Pelipper
Pidgeot
Pikachu
Pinsir
Politoed
Poliwrath
Primeape
Probopass
Quagsire
Qwilfish
Raichu
Rapidash
Raticate
Relicanth
Rotom
Sableye
Sandslash
Seviper
Sharpedo
Shiftry
Shuckle
Skuntank
Solrock
Stantler
Sudowoodo
Sunflora
Swalot
Swellow
Tentacruel
Torkoal
Toxicroak
Trapinch
Venomoth
Vespiquen
Victreebel
Vileplume
Wailord
Whiscash
Wigglytuff
Xatu
 
I'm the one who said that the Formula did more damage. I saw that less attack was needed for an OHKO on Blissey with Explosion, and less Special Attack for Ice Beam to OHKO Salamence. I'm sorry for spreading wrong information if I'm wrong.
 
Qwilfish is definitely UU ... and in terms of actual useage Butterfree see more use than a good number of the definite UU's. Raticate is also greatly improved this gen so might drag itself out of NU.

*Edit*

Anyway going back to the Kangaskhan issue .. I just used CB Adamant version in my last Shoddy Battle and it ripped through everything my opponent threw at it until Hariyama that was a 3HKO with Return (fortunately it was sleeping). Is Hariyama UU?
 
Slickee said:
Oh, something that caught my attention recently was Jumpluff being absent on the OU and BL lists, meaning it was eligable for UU.. something we might wanna look into. :p
Click to expand...

Jumpluff is already determined a solid BL so no need.

Also that list isn't very upto date as it omits all the BL's moving down.
 
Slickee said:
Oh, something that caught my attention recently was Jumpluff being absent on the OU and BL lists, meaning it was eligable for UU.. something we might wanna look into. :p

And for the record, the UU list is starting to look like this as of now:
*snip*
Click to expand...

I guess it is time to do another update then. I'm starting from Forsety's last update and comparing it with all the other pages.

BL waiting list. The ones to be removed.
-Feraligatr
-Typhlosion
-Crobat
-Azumarill
-Ursaring
-Slowking
-Mamoswine
-Ambipom
-Jumpluff

UU's to be tested.
 -Walrein
-Glaceon
-Pinsir
-Cacturne
-Lapras
-Ninetales
-Poliwrath <--- couldn't find a better place to put him
-Hitmonlee

BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
Note: Weak recommendations are placed for historical purposes, so that we don't repeat say, the Miltank or Houndoom debate.
-Claydol (Very Strong)
-Cloyster (Very Strong)
-Torterra (High)
-Steelix (High)
-Drapion (High)
-Shedinja (Medium - high)
-Flygon (Medium)
-Regigigas (Very Weak)
-Houndoom (Very Weak)
-Miltank (Very Weak)

Widely Acceptable NFE's. (Debatable ones are in the other thread)
-Scyther
-Magmar
-Electabuzz
-Trapinch
-Poliwhirl
-Clamperl
-Vigoroth
-Pikachu

Non-obvious Banned NFEs
Snover
Hippopatas

Brought up but was not discussed
Crobat
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top