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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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Yeah right and Azumarril has a whopping 218 max speed -_-

Without Aqua Jet, you can go first and take it out with a super effective attack.

One more thing: Tangela beats it one on one, even with Return. It's only a 3HKO, even at max damage (factoring in leftovers) and Tangela beats it with 2 energy balls with no EV investment or nature boost on SP. atk.

So if a pokemon like Tangela can beat it when it's using a 100 BP attack, I'm sure there are plenty more counters in UU. I listed plenty of them, it's all about picking the right pokemon (and with 3 attacking types, it's not hard: you pick either water/grass, or steel)

@ Slickee: Like I said, it's all about prediction: predicting when Azumarril comes in and hitting it, and then running to something you think will resist it's attack. Anyone with half a brain can outsmart Azumarril.

Oh yeah, Double Edge would take off like 100+ HP off of azumarril if it did that to Quagsire. It can't do that for long. Factor in spikes, toxic spikes, SR, and no recovery, and it won't sweep for long.

@ Pypehype I'm perfectly aware that Azumarril is quite the bulky critter, I'm not saying it's weak or anything. It may be a top performer in UU, but it doesn't deserve BL status because of Choice Banded aqua jet.
 
Holy crap, with 654 attack, it can do a lot of damage. Oh, but whats this, a 60 base power attack. Oh my, thats gonna like OHKO so much stuff. Now, take into consideration all the UU grass types, all of whom are decently bulky (hi, Vileplume) and all the UU water types, also very bulky (I'm looking at Kingler and Quaggy) who can completely wall the Aqua Jet set. Once the secret's out that the Azumarril packs Aqua Jet, you can switch any grass type in because there's no Ice Punch.
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"Completely Wall"? Read my earlier post. Quagsire takes almost 50% from CB Return and lacks reliable recovery as well as a way of really threatening Azumarill. Kingler's defense tier is 2 lower than Quagsire's, so it's probably 2HKO'd and lacks reliable recovery as well. Vileplume is yet another tier lower, so that's most likely 2HKO'd by CB Return too.

so Tangela, Vileplume, or Meganium can switch in for free, and sleep the opponents switch in. :P If it doesnt use aqua jet, it has a grand total of 199 max speed, so anything that isnt Slowpoke can outrun it and get a KO.
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Focus Punch will do the same amount of damage to Meganium and Tangela as Ice Punch, and like I said already Vileplume's getting 2HKO'd by CB Return. 199 max speed isn't exactly great, but it's far from Slowpoke level and outruns the 3 pokemon you just mentioned as counters. And "Get a KO"? It's not like they're 1HKOing Azumarill with any random attack, especially if they're not investing in offense at all.

And, yeah, no one in their right mind CBs Focus Punch, unless you're really brave o_o
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Why would nobody in their right mind use CB Focus Punch? If you try to set up, Azumarill can Focus Punch you again. If you try to attack back, Azumarill can switch. Of course, it's a game of prediction, but it's not a 100% perfect situation for Azumarill's opponent either that nobody in their right mind would ever try for.

On Shoddy, this is different, because you can make the illegal movesets, but in the real game, this is what you get.
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Illegal movesets are still illegal, even if Shoddy does allow them.

I listed plenty of them, it's all about picking the right pokemon (and with 3 attacking types, it's not hard: you pick either water/grass, or steel)
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Plenty? Quagsire, Meganium, Tangela, and Vileplume aren't real counters, for reasons I stated earlier. Being able to beat a pokemon 1 on 1 doesn't make it a counter.
 
The set I have on my Azu is Max HP, about 422 attack and some in defenses. I run Substitute/Focus Punch/Waterfall/Body Slam. On my CB set I run Aqua Jet/Return/Waterfall/Brick Break.

SubPunching Azu is perfectly viable as well and still monstrously powerful. Breaking its Subs is difficult without an SE attack and in the meantime it does massive damage while healing HP with Leftovers.

There is no good reason to ever touch Azumarills speed. Either you'll be using Aqua Jet where you don't care about speed, or you'll be Subpunching where slower is better. Or you'll be doing both in some sort of hybrid set in which case you go with slower is better.
 
skiddle said:
If beating a pokemon 1 vs 1 isnt a counter, then what exactly is?
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Dugtrio wipes out Magnezone 1 on 1, but it isn't a counter because it can't switch into HP Ice or Magnet Rise.

Weavile wipes out Garchomp 1on1 but it can't switch in on anything.

Electivire beats Gyarados 1on1 but it can't switch in on Dragon Dance or Earthquake.

These are just a few examples. A counter has to be able to switch in. Smogon has had that definition up for months.
 
skiddle said:
If beating a pokemon 1 vs 1 isnt a counter, then what exactly is?
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I believe there's the added requirement of being able to switch in. The guy playing the Azumarill is just as capable of trying to predict your moves as you are of his. Only in the Azumarill's case, those predictions are backed up by an attack score that makes Metagross blush. The only guaranteed wall to Azumarill's attacks, to my knowledge, would be Shedinja. Other than that, all it takes is one wrong mispredict to cripple your potential Azumarill counter. Your counter is pretty much going to have to be able to switch in, thus taking an attack on the switch, AND scare it off. Everytime Azumarill switches in its going to be a prediction war. The problem with that is you need to win everytime. Azumarill only needs to win once.
 
The sub-punch one is deadly, the CB one isn't that great....

But hey, if you guys want to bump this piece of crap up to Borderline, at least I don't have to look at it's dopey face ever again :P



So, now that this Azumarril argument is behind us *hint hint* , what do you guys think of trying to make a middle tier?

BL is huge, probably the biggest tier, and I've seen some sites have "MU" or "middle usage" that have stuff like Cradily and Tcroak in em. Should we do that ??
 
Shiny Oddish said:
Qwilfish is definitely UU ... and in terms of actual useage Butterfree see more use than a good number of the definite UU's. Raticate is also greatly improved this gen so might drag itself out of NU.

*Edit*

Anyway going back to the Kangaskhan issue .. I just used CB Adamant version in my last Shoddy Battle and it ripped through everything my opponent threw at it until Hariyama that was a 3HKO with Return (fortunately it was sleeping). Is Hariyama UU?
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There you go. Kangaskhan is too damn powerful for UU. So is it getting the step up to BL or not?

EDIT: Really, if you want an MU Tier, just make BL a bona fide metagame.

EDIT: FINALLY! Azumarill is BL. Phew.
 
Dragontamer said:
Come on :-p Garchomp SD Earthquake has to be comparable to that :-p
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Actually its muchmuch weaker. Return clocks in at 102 for some odd reason I recall making it slightly stronger. On top of that theres Facade, a reliable 140 base attack, Quick Feet really appreciates it too.

Soo.. ~_~

Apparently Clefable's BL on some other list, maybe its something we should look into?
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Clefable SHOULD be UU since that was the verdict in the thread.

what do you guys think of trying to make a middle tier?
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One word.

Retarded.

There you go. Kangaskhan is too damn powerful for UU. So is it getting the step up to BL or not?
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I 6-0'd with a Omastar the other day, obviously that can mean nothing else. ~_~

If you're that afraid of it than build your team around killing it, I know I can kill it any day of the week.
 
Shiny Oddish said:
Is Hariyama UU or BL ... I can't access the original proposed tier lists.
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On the original tier lists it was in BL, and I don't recall anyone putting forward an argument for it in UU. The only time I remember it being mentioned was when it was discussed as a potential counter to Specs Glaceon, despite both being labelled as BL.

EDIT: My bad. Thought Glaceon was in BL, but on second inspection I see that it isn't. By the way, why can't you view the tier lists?
 
X-Act said:
Says who?
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Oh, I assumed that since Skiddle was saying that he wouldn't have to see its ugly face in UU, it had become BL. Evidently, I was wrong...

Forsety said:
Actually its muchmuch weaker. Return clocks in at 102 for some odd reason I recall making it slightly stronger. On top of that theres Facade, a reliable 140 base attack, Quick Feet really appreciates it too.

Soo.. ~_~


Clefable SHOULD be UU since that was the verdict in the thread.


One word.

Retarded.


I 6-0'd with a Omastar the other day, obviously that can mean nothing else. ~_~

If you're that afraid of it than build your team around killing it, I know I can kill it any day of the week.
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I'm not afraid of it, and its not about killing it. Its about getting something in against it in the first place. If its the CBer, a well predicted hit means you're taking a good deal of damage. If its the SubPuncher, he doesn't even need to know whats coming in, he can just Sub on the switch.

And Omastar needs Rain Dance setup before it can really sweep, and has a shitload of common weaknesses, unlike Kangaskhan which is weak to only Fighting. I think Walrein completely counters Omastar anyway.
 
I think Walrein completely counters Omastar anyway.
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No, I doubt that. I for one would definately run Hidden Power Electric, and if they weren't available I would run STAB AncientPower, primarily to deal with Mantine. Both would also nail Walrein hard.
 
By the way, why can't you view the tier lists?
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It's because I was clicking on the link that would take me to the lists on the beta site, which is down. Completely failed to notice the link above it. D'oh.

Going back to my post where I mentioned using Kangashkahn, the point of it was to suggest Hariyama as a possible counter, which is also why I wanted to know what tier it was.
 
Lee said:
No, I doubt that. I for one would definately run Hidden Power Electric, and if they weren't available I would run STAB AncientPower, primarily to deal with Mantine. Both would also nail Walrein hard.
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Ancient Power is more powerful. Unboosted Modest Max SpA Ancienpower does 43-50% to a 252 HP/176 SDef Walrein. Not even a 2HKO, especially with Protect and Rest, and a mere 8 PP to work with.

HP Electric has about 72-73% of the BP, which means HP Electric(more likely for Mantine), will do about 37% max to Walrein, making it a lot easier to counter.

Walrein can 2HKO 0/0 HP/SDEF with Surf without ANY EV investment. If its raining, it does 70% min. And since it'll usually be raining, Walrein will 2HKO any version without a lot of SDef investment.
 
So what we got going to BL right now...

Ursaring
Azumarril
Kanghaskhan
Mamoswine
Glaceon??

What's coming down to UU to replace the ones we lost? Can Claydol be UU plz? What about Clefable? It's stats aren't SUPER high, and the Hitmons and Pinsir can keep it in check. Oh yeah, and Omastar should be UU too. EQ, Fight, Grass, Electric... all common weaknesses. Also, it's strongest Rock attack is ancient power : O
 
So has Hitmonlee been decided as UU finally? If Claydol comes down and Lee stays, it'll probably overcentralise the metagame won't it?
 
The strongest rock attack is sandstorm weatherball actually, and because of that, Roserade in a sandstorm is the most powerful rock attack special pokemon. (Ancient power == 60 BP + stab == 90 BP. Weatherball == 100 BP)

Then again, power gem is there... but no one gets stab off of that.
 
Hmm, in UU?

Castform Weatherball in Sandstorm hits attack tier 108.35, while Omastar ancient power only hits 106.34

:-p Go go weather change to rock to get STAB + 100 BP attack off 70 base >_> Goes to show that BP matters a LOT in damage. Lol.
 
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