DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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Deck Knight said:
So what you're saying is that Scyther 2HKOs Drifblim with its strongest neutral attack only after somehow managing to get a Swords Dance in.

Thanks for proving our point.

Sorry, your opponents are just stupid if they're getting sweeped by Scyther.
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uuh, it's not just scyther that can sweep, it's whatever the frick it baton passes swords dance off of its 105 speed as well. Amazingly, with that speed it can *gasp* force a switch! Which means it can then *gasp* set up Swords Dance! And then it begins to rape everything in its path! And as stated before, 70/80/80 defenses aint exactly shoddy either, so there's a good possibility it can survive long enough to 2HKO the opponent's strongest counter.

No one has even touched the possibility of the CB version and the 110 attack stab'd U-turns it can utilize.. :p
 
Deck Knight said:
So what you're saying is that Scyther 2HKOs Drifblim with its strongest neutral attack only after somehow managing to get a Swords Dance in.

Thanks for proving our point.

Sorry, your opponents are just stupid if they're getting sweeped by Scyther.
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No, I was just pointing out that Forsety's statement was incorrect. And for the record, I doubt most Drifblims run max hp/def.

Anyways, like I said, part of the big threat that comes from Scyther is the fact that it can BP Swords Dances (off 105 speed). It's harder to justify a pokemon's position based on roles other than straight sweeping, however, so...eh. Floatzel is BL mainly because it's such an effective BPer, and while it's better than Scyther at BPing (no SR weakness, 10 more base speed, taunt), Scyther is passing on an arguably better boost.
 
No one has even touched the possibility of the CB version and the 110 attack stab'd U-turns it can utilize
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That's because nobody wants to do all that work getting Scyther in, only to U-Turn straight back out again.

And to the numpty who said Scyther 2HKO's every UU Pokemon? I think he overlooked one of the best Scyther counters in the whole game, never mind UU.

Torkoal.

With 416 defence, a resistance to Bug attacks and no weaknesses to Scythers attacks, he can switch in safely and OHKO Scyther with Fire Blast or cripple him with Will-o-Wisp. If you suspect a Baton Pass, you can use Yawn and the recipient will be going to sleep pretty sharpish. Alternatively, you could WoW the switch, although that's a bit more risky. His SR weakness holds him back a little, but he can Rapid Spin for himself I guess.

Of course that's only one classic counter and I know the overcentralisation accusations will fly.

Golem, Relicanth and Omastar all have a weakness to Brick Break, but off they each have defences of over 125 base, and can easily survive even after a SD and hit Scyther back for SE damage. Golem can also Roar away a BP recipient. Kingler can take hits off that 115 base defence and KO back with Rock Slide or use Haze in the case of a BP'er (not that I suggest Haze on Kingler lol). Sandslash can take a hit and OHKO back with Stone Edge.

Scyther's clearly a great Pokemon in the UU environment, but he's certainly no better than say...Garchomp or Tyranitar in the OU environment, is he? We're getting a bit hasty in condemning any Pokemon that has the ability to perform well. I think the fact that we didn't think of discussing Scyther until Page 30 or whatever speaks volumes.
 
Slickee said:
uuh, it's not just scyther that can sweep, it's whatever the frick it baton passes swords dance off of its 105 speed as well. Amazingly, with that speed it can *gasp* force a switch! Which means it can then *gasp* set up Swords Dance! And then it begins to rape everything in its path! And as stated before, 70/80/80 defenses aint exactly shoddy either, so there's a good possibility it can survive long enough to 2HKO the opponent's strongest counter.

No one has even touched the possibility of the CB version and the 110 attack stab'd U-turns it can utilize.. :p
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Having a certain base speed doesn't force a switch unless its on something that can immediately threaten you. Nobody thinks "OMG IT HAS 105 BASE SPEED GET OUT EVERY..." they think "This thing can score an SE hit and take out one of my pokemon."

The problem with Scyther is that it has so many weaknesses. Fire, Ice, Electric, Rock(4x), and Flying mean there isn't much it can switch in on without taking a hit. Scyther is crippled if it switches in on Will-O-Wisp or Thunder Wave, and rendered near-useless by Stealth Rock.

Everyone is used to Scyther's tricks by now, we've known what it does since RBY: Set up a Swords Dance and attack. In GSC it got BP so we know it could do that too with either SD or Agility, but having BP and Swords Dance limited it to two attacks.

So in short, Scyther is same stuff different box. Everyone knows it's going to set up and then attack, which is why Scyther's only real safe switchins are things like Meganium and Venomoth.

Scyther is good, it just isn't BL worthy. The only thing that has changed since last gen is 90 powered Aerial Ace, which is cool, but not metagame-altering.
 
Slickee said:
lol, drifblim is NOT faster than Scyther and if a SD'd LO Aerial Ace can OHKO Quagsire/Kangaskhan (as so graciously demonstrated in my last match against a Scyther ._.) it'll probably kill it too.
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Unburden says hi. Its terribly easy to get off.

And I know from experience alone it'll never realistically kill most of the time it'll probably hit the middle/lower limits for damage.

No, I was just pointing out that Forsety's statement was incorrect. And for the record, I doubt most Drifblims run max hp/def.
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I don't but I run pretty damn close to it and its an incredible physical sponge because of it. To top it off it never even has to go into a direct confrontation if it doesn't want to with Hypnosis, Disable and Will O'Wisp at its disposal.

I'd really like to see anything physcial attempt a sweep while burnt or asleep, slower and having their best move disabled all of this can be potentially done in only one turn. Even without all that against Scyther in particular it can still Shadowball, Thunderbolt, Explode in its face.

I don't even have to run any calculations for this because I have used these two to death and I know what happens off the top of my head without looking. There are ways of dealing with things without resulting to brute power or defense stats alone.
 
Forsety said:
Unburden says hi. Its terribly easy to get off.

And I know from experience alone it'll never realistically kill most of the time it'll probably hit the middle/lower limits for damage.


I don't but I run pretty damn close to it and its an incredible physical sponge because of it. To top it off it never even has to go into a direct confrontation if it doesn't want to with Hypnosis, Disable and Will O'Wisp at its disposal.

I'd really like to see anything physcial attempt a sweep while burnt or asleep, slower and having their best move disabled all of this can be potentially done in only one turn. Even without all that against Scyther in particular it can still Shadowball, Thunderbolt, Explode in its face.

I don't even have to run any calculations for this because I have used these two to death and I know what happens off the top of my head without looking. There are ways of dealing with things without resulting to brute power or defense stats alone.
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Scyther OHKO's the standard Drifblim with an SD and a LO, and if you're running near max HP and Def you'd probably be hampering any ability for Drifblim to attack back at all. Not to mention that max HP/Def Drifblim cant even switch into a SD'd LO AA and survive the next turn to do anything. And getting Unburden off is both situational, and it can only be used once if I understand correctly.

On torkoal, a SD'd LO AA nearly does enough to make a 2HKO, but not quite, meaning if it has already sustained damage or switches into Stealth Rock it wont be able to survive it either. This would mean Scyther probably does the most at the beginning of the fight as a baton passer and the most near the end of a fight as a sweeper. There are only a couple specific things that can really take Scyther on one-on-one, and if they cant it can simply happily pass a boost onto something that can kick the counter's ass.
 
And getting Unburden off is both situational, and it can only be used once if I understand correctly.
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Actually theres a very easy way to get off an automatic Unburden which I use all the time with Drifblim. Sitrus Berry, its been changed now to recover 25%HP automatically so its actually an extremely useful item. If you don't OHKO the balloon its always guaranteed to get a move off, more so when the berry activates at 50% health unlike traditional berries.

Theres another thing which means its not a one time only use and that is Drifblim also learns Recycle on top of that. It doubles as both a speed boost and healing, if you don't like suicide runs with Destiny Bond or Explosion you can simply heal up. Unburden can be used multiple times providing you can recall the item.
(In fact this is one of my main reasons for disliking ShoddyBattle, Sitrus Berry was not implemented till recently and Recycle is still absent)

Also from experience alone I know you'll never get off that Scyther Swords Dance without being hit at least once. No person is stupid enough not to attempt to cripple Scyther while they still have a chance. In fact LO hurts Scyther alot as during its setup chances are it'll be hanging onto the edge of its life more than often. Thats just how its defenses work, they usually allow it to survive one good strong hit but nothing more.

In fact heres the major problem with this whole situation. Your perfect scenario of SD'd Scyther w/LO assumes your opponent is a borderline idiot incapable of any sane decisions. One who doesn't realise Scyther is suspectible to every attack in the game not Fighting, Ground, Dark and Bug. Which is one of its inherant weaknesses, Scyther can be hurt by just about anything and sometimes its better not to switch.

Having Scyther switch in again as a late game sweeper is just unrealistic, once you've played its going to have to eat SR later and if it led its bound to have eaten some damage earlier which will be its death sentence. LO is just a signed warrant for suicide, it'll get you that one kill but thats about it.
 
Okay, I have to say something. This is a hypothetical log.

Player 1's wall fainted.
Player 1 sends out Scyther.
------
Player 2 recalls Pokemon.
Player 2 sends out *insert Pokemon that is not OHKO'd by Scyther (there are a lot) and can OHKO it back here*
Player 1's Scyther uses Swords Dance.
-----
Player 1's Scyther uses *move be.st suited for 2HKOing wall*
Player 2's *Wall* uses *Scyther killing move*.
Player 1's Scyther fainted.

Notice something. You don't have to survive 2 hits from Scyther, only 1. This is why Cresselia can count SD LO Outrage Garchomp even though it is 2HKO'd by it. Same logic applies here. So come back when Scyther has a guarenteed OHKO on all UU walls after a SD and we'll talk. Until then, it's exactly like Garchomp in OU, except with less durability. Its Baton Pass is comparable to the appearance of Scarf and Chain Chomp.
 
Also from experience alone I know you'll never get off that Scyther Swords Dance without being hit at least once. No person is stupid enough not to attempt to cripple Scyther while they still have a chance. In fact LO hurts Scyther alot as during its setup chances are it'll be hanging onto the edge of its life more than often. Thats just how its defenses work, they usually allow it to survive one good strong hit but nothing more.
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It's not quite that simple. If they do try and attack, Scyther can just finish one of their pokemon. And the person playing Scyther is usually going to aim to come in on something that isn't a huge threat to it.

In fact heres the major problem with this whole situation. Your perfect scenario of SD'd Scyther w/LO assumes your opponent is a borderline idiot incapable of any sane decisions. One who doesn't realise Scyther is suspectible to every attack in the game not Fighting, Ground, Dark and Bug. Which is one of its inherant weaknesses, Scyther can be hurt by just about anything and sometimes its better not to switch.
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Scyther's nowhere near as much of a glass cannon as you're making it out to be. Tank of the year it isn't, but there are plenty of pokemon that Scyther can come in on and SD against without facing an overwhelming amount of damage.

Also, Stealth Rock isn't something that's always going to be up. There are still decent spinners in UU (I like Hitmontop, myself), and you'd be an idiot to not have one if you're using Scyther. For the record, though...Drifblim will always be 1HKO'd by a SD'd LO AA if Stealth Rock is up.

Hyra, I agree with your statement up to this point:

Its Baton Pass is comparable to the appearance of Scarf and Chain Chomp.
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Baton pass gives a lot more versatility and offensive options to Scyther than Garchomp gets by running a slightly different moveset (well, and there's the fact that Cresselia has reliable recovery, unlike many UU walls).

Actually (and I'm not using this as an argument, I just felt like mentioning it), there's one other point as well - all of the pokemon I did calculations for sans Shuckle (and Quagsire, who has a chance to live with something like .25% health) would be KO'd by Scyther's attacks if there was SR and 3 layers of spikes. Admittedly, that's a huge amount of setup and it's highly unlikely it would ever happen, but it's certainly something Garchomp can't do.

Edit: Golem can survive, too.
 
Give me a list of walls that can counter Scyther and not overcentralize the metagame and I'll be more inclined to fold my arguments. :p
 
Slickee said:
Give me a list of walls that can counter Scyther and not overcentralize the metagame and I'll be more inclined to fold my arguments. :p
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Steelix can come in on swords dance, survive brick break and roar.

Driftblim can come in on swords dance, and WoW Scyther or the counter.

Walrein can come into a swords dance, survive brick break, possible OHKO with ice beam or rockslide (guarenteed with stealth rocks), and roar the counter.
 
Driftblim can come in on swords dance, and WoW Scyther or the counter.

Walrein can come into a swords dance, survive brick break, possible OHKO with ice beam or rockslide (guarenteed with stealth rocks), and roar the counter.
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Both of these are assuming no Stealth Rocks on the opponent's side of the field, which is a very bold assumpton indeed. I don't get the Drifblim argument at all. With max 504/205 defense it is only just barely surviving the Aerial Ace anyway. Even Wailord has better defense than that and doesn't have to assume lack of Stealth Rock, although admittedly it has far less options to work with.

Baton pass gives a lot more versatility and offensive options to Scyther than Garchomp gets by running a slightly different moveset (well, and there's the fact that Cresselia has reliable recovery, unlike many UU walls).

Actually (and I'm not using this as an argument, I just felt like mentioning it), there's one other point as well - all of the pokemon I did calculations for sans Shuckle (and Quagsire, who has a chance to live with something like .25% health) would be KO'd by Scyther's attacks if there was SR and 3 layers of spikes. Admittedly, that's a huge amount of setup and it's highly unlikely it would ever happen, but it's certainly something Garchomp can't do.
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Good point, I agree (although those Shuckle calcs seem a little off. Something neutral to AA with 244 HP taking less than half damage after SD?)
Anyways, other point I thought I should bring up is that any amount of testing currently on Shoddy may not reveal the whole story as far as Scyther's usefulness is concerned. I say that because the most glaring omission on Shoddy so far is the lack of any working ability for Bibarel. If Bibarel had Simple to work with, it would only require a SD and Salac boost passed to it in order to completely sweep any unprepared team with an unresisted Waterfall/Return STAB combo, and Scyther is more than capable of providing that service. Gligar would probably be worse if allowed in, with Taunt and the fact that it's only weak to stuff that Bibarel resists, but that's besides the point. I'm not saying such a combo would make Scyther broken, I'm just saying that it is yet another example of Scyther's incredible versatility in UU and one more threat that everyone has to be prepared for.
 
Okay, so steelix stays as a counter, Walrein works without stealth rocks down, and Relecanth is always avaliable too with Yawn (who also survives BB). Sandslash OHKOs with Stone Edge and can swords dance up as well. Swolot can yawn... Wiscash can come in and Stone Edge him.

Now again, this is when you're working on the defense. What if...

You switch in Purugly, you can outspeed and Fake-Out / Return for the OHKO with a Life Orb (scyther has no time to baton pass). Technician Persian can do so similarly (and then U-Turn to be the Ambipom in OU-lite ... I mean... UU >.<). Persian also OHKOs with Power Gem for the Sp. Atk versions. Specs froslass outspeeds and OHKOs with Thunderbolt. Electrode OHKOs with T-Bolt.
 
Okay, I think I found two Pokemon who we might be able to move down.

Empoleon - The only argument I can see for it being BL is the fact that Specs Hydro Pump hurts. However, we have at least Quagsire and Poliwrath for Water Absorbers and then there are things like Meganium / other waters that resist it. I feel Empoleon would be a great wall for the UU metagame, yet it wouldn't be perfect.

Uxie - Is this really to powerful for UU? I can understand Mesprit, being one of the best CMBoltBeamers out side of Ubers. However, Uxie lacks Ice Beam, making it resort to HP Ice. Also, the only way it can Recover is Rest. How will this wall all of UU, especially when Pinsir and Scyther are considered some of the biggest threats?
 
Good point, I agree (although those Shuckle calcs seem a little off. Something neutral to AA with 244 HP taking less than half damage after SD?)
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Yep, Shuckle's defense is obscene. It's made up for by Shuckle's terrible offensive stats, though.

Okay, so steelix stays as a counter,
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Is Steelix UU, though? I don't have an opinion on it, but it's BL on the current list.

Uxie...well, just look at it compared to other walls of UU. Even without reliable recovery, it's still so much better then all of them it's scary.

Empoleon is worth consideration, IMO. It does get a very good attacking combonation in Surf/Ice Beam/Grass Knot, not exactly sure how most UU pokemon could stand up to that, though.
 
Nice attacking combo, yes. I guess a Life Orb Agility Set could do some major damage. My main argument was going to be 60 base speed isn't that hard to outspeed, but.... What are Lapras and Walrein's weights, they seem to be pretty good at countering this. Actually, Empoleon counters itself. Clefable, Grumpig, and co. would be good walls (I believe). Hm... We were considering Ninetales right? There is no way this is stronger than Ninetales as an attacker.

Of course, my point was for Empoleon to be another UU wall, but it could also attack, which is what might make it BL.

Edit: Skiddle, I just saw there had been no discussion on Empoleon. Also, is this with Max HP / Def? Because, it does have respectable defense. But no, I did not bring up Empoleon or Uxie as Scyther counters.
 
Fishin said:
Is Steelix UU, though? I don't have an opinion on it, but it's BL on the current list.

Uxie...well, just look at it compared to other walls of UU. Even without reliable recovery, it's still so much better then all of them it's scary.

Empoleon is worth consideration, IMO. It does get a very good attacking combonation in Surf/Ice Beam/Grass Knot, not exactly sure how most UU pokemon could stand up to that, though.
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Cue a debate update:

Current Discussion
Scyther (currently UU)

BL waiting list. The ones to be removed.
-Feraligatr
-Typhlosion
-Crobat
-Azumarill
-Ursaring
-Slowking
-Mamoswine
-Ambipom
-Jumpluff

UU's to be tested.
 -Walrein
-Glaceon
-Pinsir
-Cacturne
-Lapras
-Ninetales
-Poliwrath <--- couldn't find a better place to put him
-Hitmonlee

BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
Note: Weak recommendations are placed for historical purposes, so that we don't repeat say, the Miltank or Houndoom debate.
-Claydol (Very Strong)
-Cloyster (Very Strong)
-Torterra (High)
-Steelix (High)
-Drapion (High)
-Shedinja (Medium - high)
-Regigigas (Weak)
-Houndoom (Very Weak)
-Miltank (Very Weak)
-Flygon (Very Weak)

Widely Acceptable NFE's. (Debatable ones are in the other thread)
-Scyther
-Magmar
-Electabuzz
-Trapinch
-Poliwhirl
-Clamperl
-Vigoroth
-Pikachu

Non-obvious Banned NFEs (AKA, BL)
Snover
Hippopatas
 
We decided that Slowking was BL for sure? It's got defensive and offensive stats better than Grumpig or Hypno as well as reliable recovery, but being part water adds several weaknesses as well and it's much slower. I'm leaning towards BL, but I don't think we ever really discussed it.

What are Lapras and Walrein's weights, they seem to be pretty good at countering this. Actually, Empoleon counters itself. Clefable, Grumpig, and co. would be good walls (I believe). Hm... We were considering Ninetales right? There is no way this is stronger than Ninetales as an attacker.
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IIRC Walrein and Lapras are both pretty heavy. Empoleon would need HP Electric/Ground to really hurt itself, but yeah, it could counter itself.

I'm not sure if we ever came to a decision on Ninetails either. Good speed combined with Nasty Plot, Hypnosis, and decent special attack, but it's movepool is a bit limited...definitely a threat, but I don't think it's really overpowered in UU (Persian can do the same thing with more speed and a better special attacking combonation, though lower sp atk).


On another random note, someone got annoyed at me today for using Swellow in a UU match. I'm for it being UU (it's completely countered by the Rock/Steels), but anyone have a different opinion?
 
Toxic Orb swellow is absurdly powerful, but rock/steels are actually used in UU and the counters are plentiful.

I'm kinda neutral on this. While rock/steels are a perfect counter, it might over-centralize the metagame around 4x flying/normal resists.
 
RE: slowking

Definitely BL. It is slowbro, with reversed defense and special defense stats, and nasty plot. Here's the best of its movepool:

surf
ice beam
flamethrower/fire blast
grass knot
focus blast
psychic
shadow ball

avalanche
brick break
drain punch
focus punch
earthquake
zen headbutt

thunder wave
yawn

SLACK OFF

recycle
fling
trick room
block
disable
skill swap

nasty plot
calm mind
amnesia
belly drum
curse
light screen

Looks pretty good, eh? It does... almost everything.
 
Empoleon - The only argument I can see for it being BL is the fact that Specs Hydro Pump hurts. However, we have at least Quagsire and Poliwrath for Water Absorbers and then there are things like Meganium / other waters that resist it. I feel Empoleon would be a great wall for the UU metagame, yet it wouldn't be perfect.
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I really like this idea ... Empoleon is good, but its also weak to three of the most common attack types (Fighting, Ground and Electric) and is easily outsped by a lot of stuff that use these attacks. Definitely worth considering IMHO.
 
Fishin, on page 2-3, Swellow was discussed (mostly be me), and it was generally agreed that he is UU. I guess if DragonTamers feels strongly enough about it, we could discuss it again. However, I feel that Swellow can only perform well against an opponent that doesn't have any Rock or Steel types, which is why we occassionally see these Swellow sweeps against OU opponents who use Weezing/Gliscor as physical walls.

However in UU, there are Rocks and Steel types everywhere...Golem, Aggron, Sudowoodo, Omastar, Probopass and maybe Steelix and Empoleon too. He's a lot better in OU than he is in UU, strangely enough.
 
I ran some damage calculations for Swellow and I'm assuming the walls are all running max defense and HP and this is max damage possible:
~18% damage to a Steelix.
~10% to Bastiodon
~27% damage to omastar
~33% damage to Empoleon

Tell me if these calculations are off. I don't need to mention Aggron since Bastiodon and Aggron take similar damage from Swellow.
 
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