Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

[SJCrew]

Considering that every Aegislash ever runs a non-invested -Spe nature in order to go second + maintain maximum offenses/defenses, the typical Aegislash speed is 134. Many also run minimum Speed IVs, which would put them at 103.

An Adamant Marowak with at least 45 EVs in Speed will outpace either of those options.

So was that a rhetorical question or...?

I don't consider any of this data credible. All you're doing is assuming that everyone who uses Aegislash runs a bad set that ignores the context of the actual metagame for superficialities. What good player knows Alolan Marowak is around and opts to underspeed it 'to go second'? Tell me right now that you'd go to teambuilder, put an Aegislash on your team, and take away all of its speed, knowing that it'd have even more checks in doing so, and we can end this discussion right here.

FYI: Pure offensive Aegislash sets are WAY better in the current meta. SD, mixed AoA, you name it; all of them are better than defensive right now. Try them with VoltTurn support and watch entire teams drop.

 

[Kakimori]

What part of what I said was not true? Sure, there are some shitty Autotomize sets out there, but if you're running a crap set just to be hipster you're already on the way out.

Second, nobody's saying Marowak counters Aegislash or anything. Just that Aegislash gets checked.

EDIT: Okay, so assume your Aegislash starts running Speed to deal with A-Marowak. Now you auto-lose to properly built Aegislash and any bulky attacker that's slower than you.

 

[SJCrew]

Want to know something hilarious? I actually did not know Alolan Marowak's speed at the time of my previous post. All I know is that players like you on ladder are quick to bring it in on the revenge and get blown away for your troubles. That should be enough of a lesson against fake checks and assumed sets. But if I'm gauging your responses well, I'll bet you anything you're stubborn enough to keep doing it and will eventually backpedal with your tail between your legs when you finally realize it's a bad idea.

While we're on the subject, I know a thing or two about Aegislash 1v1s. Hint: the faster Aegislash usually wins!

 

[volx757]

I mean to be fair, smogdex's only entry for aegi (granted it's ubers and last gen, but many ppl base their building decisions off smogdex), recommends a min speed nature with 0 speed IVs, and even goes on to say 'Aegislash is very specialized, so it does not have many alternative options that are viable.' There are definitely a million sets running about right now cause everything is so new, but the dude was basing his comments off reasonable data.

Chill w the venom we're not even in a viability thread yet lol.

 

[Tressed]

What part of what I said was not true? Sure, there are some shitty Autotomize sets out there, but if you're running a crap set just to be hipster you're already on the way out.

Second, nobody's saying Marowak counters Aegislash or anything. Just that Aegislash gets checked.

EDIT: Okay, so assume your Aegislash starts running Speed to deal with A-Marowak. Now you auto-lose to properly built Aegislash and any bulky attacker that's slower than you.

Just for clarity's sake, a lot of what you're saying is incorrect and assumes that bulky Aegislash sets are the only good ones. All out attacking Aegislash is a standard set, which is generally running speed in order to outrun defensive mons and actually 2HKO them. It still maintains most of Aegi's bulk on switch ins but is much more effective at actually dealing damage in return. Typically you'll see Tank and StanceDance Aegi at lower ranks, while things like AOA, Offensive Swords Dance, and SubToxic are more common at higher ranks.

With that said, the idea that Marowak can check Aegi because none of them run speed is false. Bulky sets are viable and used, but assuming that only one set will get used and that Marowak is an acceptable check to all Aegi forms is asking to get trashed.

 

[Kakimori]

Sure, depending on how much Speed you want to invest into your Aegislash, you can counter A-Marowak. But (a) you will open yourself up to some other weaknesses if you do that and (b) you make the set weaker overall to do so, either by having less offenses or less bulk. So what you're saying is I don't even have to run A-Marowak on my team to make Aegislash weaker by its presence in the meta? Cool...

So I watched your Replay and uh....there was no Aegislash 1v1. Ezio literally switched his Aegislash into your Shadow Ball because he mispredicted the Sacred Sword. I'm talking about a legit 1v1, not "Hey, let me switch in to this 80% dmg SE attack. Starting off on even footing here, guys."

Something dies and you end up with an Aegislash vs. Aegislash. What actually happens here is that the faster Aegislash uses Shadow Ball, fails to KO, then the slower Aegislash uses Shadow Ball and OHKOs. And yes, you can switch out, but something on your team will take that Shadow Ball every time it happens.

EDIT: I'm not going to deny that A-Marowak can get trashed if Aegi wants to invest in Speed. That's one of those golf clap, good job, you beat the meta by running HP Ice on your Venusaur moments. I don't personally think speed-invested Aegi is the best set, and if we get into specifics of EV spreads I can break down why more thoroughly.

If someone wants to post replays of them trashing whole teams with Aegislash at high ladder as has been claimed, I'd be happy to watch with an open mind.

 

[Kejmur]

I mean to be fair, smogdex's only entry for aegi (granted it's ubers and last gen, but many ppl base their building decisions off smogdex), recommends a min speed nature with 0 speed IVs, and even goes on to say 'Aegislash is very specialized, so it does not have many alternative options that are viable.' There are definitely a million sets running about right now cause everything is so new, but the dude was basing his comments off reasonable data.

Chill w the venom we're not even in a viability thread yet lol.

I don't know why would you apply Ubers smogdex entry into OU metagame ? Aegislash runs mostly defensive in Ubers because it's the best and in a way only somewhat viable set there. It's nowhere fast / strong enough to really go with offensive sets in Ubers with all those bulky behemots there, so best bet is simply go defensive. It also makes Aegislash decent Xerneas check, so it has a niche. Although with Primal Groudon EVERYWHERE it's not that great.

But in OU metagame story is different - offensive sets are perfectly viable. Speedy Life Orb set with hazards / volturn support give slower teams really hard time to deal with as Ghost is brilliant offensive STAB with only Dark as a resistance (for Normal types you have Sacred Sword / Toxic plus you may just switch into fighting type or something). And if you miss bulk ? You have teammates to cover this. Life Orb Shadow Ball coming from this SpA simply hurts. Plus with this typing and natural bulk in shield forms (you have CRAPLOAD of resistances / immunities) you can still tank a hit or two. Instead of being bulky you turn this version of Aegislash into offensive pivot. What fits your team more - it's that simple.

 

[M BLADE]

It's kinda simple; don't trust your A-Marowak is going to outspeed Aegislash, or you'll be sorry, like, most of the time.
You don't know how many EVs Aegislash is running, don't think you'll outspeed them all so don't rely on it, ever.

If A-Marowak with some speed EVs is your Aegislash check, surely something went very wrong with the teambuilding.

It's like using Kartana to check Rain lol

 

[KingKdot]

Considering that every Aegislash ever runs a non-invested -Spe nature in order to go second + maintain maximum offenses/defenses, the typical Aegislash speed is 134. Many also run minimum Speed IVs, which would put them at 103.

Not even close to being true

 

[SketchUp]

Sure, depending on how much Speed you want to invest into your Aegislash, you can counter A-Marowak. But (a) you will open yourself up to some other weaknesses if you do that and (b) you make the set weaker overall to do so, either by having less offenses or less bulk. So what you're saying is I don't even have to run A-Marowak on my team to make Aegislash weaker by its presence in the meta? Cool...

Aegislash doesn't run speed investment because of Alolan Marowak, it does because of pokemon like MVenu, Adamant Bisharp, Modest Magearna and slow Heatran. Yeah, sure fast Aegi will have less bulk and be more vulnerable to wallbreakers, at the cost of being a more threatening offensive pokemon itself. I don't think it's fair to say fast Aegi is definitely weaker overall when it has some clear advantages.

 

[Fire Fist Ace]

Any possibility of weather Abilities going into lower tiers? Alolan Ninetales doesn't really seem like the best hail summoner in the world, although it does destroy Dragons, usual Ice weaknesses, and usual Fairy weaknesses. Although I see it going not much higher than maybe RU or UU.

For that matter, where might the new weather senders end up? Pelipper got that nice Drizzle addition with a Hurricane to spam it with, and a decent SpA boost, but can't see it going too high either.

 

[Kakimori]

Aegislash doesn't run speed investment because of Alolan Marowak, it does because of pokemon like MVenu, Adamant Bisharp, Modest Magearna and slow Heatran. Yeah, sure fast Aegi will have less bulk and be more vulnerable to wallbreakers, at the cost of being a more threatening offensive pokemon itself. I don't think it's fair to say fast Aegi is definitely weaker overall when it has some clear advantages.

Fair enough. Speed-invested Aegislash just sounds odd to me, and it is undeniably making itself weaker against a larger portion of the metagame (more easily worn down, more switch-in damage, loses 1v1 to slow special attackers) to counter some specific checks. From what I remember around the time it got banned in XY, Max HP Max SpAtk was one of the preferred sets and many didn't bother running King's Shield.

Anyway, regardless of whether or not a majority of current Aegislash are speed-invested and counter A-Marowak (??), this whole side discussion is not really relevant to the fact that Aegislash isn't even close to broken in the current meta.

As I said, I'm perfectly happy to look at high-level ladder replays of Aegislash destroying teams if such replays exist. Please feel free to convert me to the Church of Ban.

 

[ian smart]

A few of my thoughts

1. It's way too early for quickbans. maybe phero and power construct are exceptions, but quick banning things like aegi and toxapex is silly considering we are only 5 days into SuMo and we can't say that they are centralizing when people are literally just running random things to see if they will work. We are still in the learning phase of SuMo so let the metagame develop a bit before yelling "ban this" "ban that"

2. if we want to ban 100% zygarde, banning the entire poke is not fair: Zygarde 50 and 10% arent broken. the only broken thing about them is power construct. The thing that makes this different than blaze blaziken is that no other pokemon gets power construct. This is more similar to battle bond greninja which afaik is going to be suspected separately than protean gren.

3. Let the metagame develop: as i said before, we are still in the "trying new shit out" phase of SoMu. Making hasty decisions is the last thing that will help the metagame. We should wait and see how things develop before talking about bans. Let's just play the game for now and if something really is broken, then we can talk about that later.

 

[reachzero]

In my opinion, the best Defog user is Tapu Fini, I've been using two attacks and CM with Defog, it checks a bunch of stuff and Mystic Terrain is absolutely amazing, having a status shield works wonders for a bunch of set-up sweepers, such as the absolutely overwhelming DD Zygarde. I haven't found Pheremosa much of a problem at all, or even Aegislash really (the meta has a ton of good Dark types and Ground attack users), but Zygarde is on another level and should probably be a priority target for a quickban. The lack of variety for your Mega slot is kind of annoying, but as others have mentioned I find Metagross and both Charizards to be pretty amazing in this metagame. I also tried Scizor, but found it less than impressive. Are there other good Megas that I haven't tried yet?

 

[Anish]

In my opinion, the best Defog user is Tapu Fini, I've been using two attacks and CM with Defog, it checks a bunch of stuff and Mystic Terrain is absolutely amazing, having a status shield works wonders for a bunch of set-up sweepers, such as the absolutely overwhelming DD Zygarde. I haven't found Pheremosa much of a problem at all, or even Aegislash really (the meta has a ton of good Dark types and Ground attack users), but Zygarde is on another level and should probably be a priority target for a quickban. The lack of variety for your Mega slot is kind of annoying, but as others have mentioned I find Metagross and both Charizards to be pretty amazing in this metagame. I also tried Scizor, but found it less than impressive. Are there other good Megas that I haven't tried yet?

Mega Venasaur is pretty good as a electric check, checking bulky waters like Keldeo, checks most Finis, and loves the burn nerf, and pretty unprepared for, especially since it soft checks stuff like Genesect, checks Greninja, etc.

 

[Kakimori]

In my opinion, the best Defog user is Tapu Fini, I've been using two attacks and CM with Defog, it checks a bunch of stuff and Mystic Terrain is absolutely amazing, having a status shield works wonders for a bunch of set-up sweepers, such as the absolutely overwhelming DD Zygarde. I haven't found Pheremosa much of a problem at all, or even Aegislash really (the meta has a ton of good Dark types and Ground attack users), but Zygarde is on another level and should probably be a priority target for a quickban. The lack of variety for your Mega slot is kind of annoying, but as others have mentioned I find Metagross and both Charizards to be pretty amazing in this metagame. I also tried Scizor, but found it less than impressive. Are there other good Megas that I haven't tried yet?

Mega-Venusaur is and shall always be a boss. I personally like Leech Seed variants over HP Fire, but either way it just checks so much in the current meta overall.

Did you try physically defensive Defog/U-turn/Bullet Punch/Roost Mega-Scizor? Or just the Swords Dance variant?

I've also seen a few surprisingly good Chain Chomp Mega-Garchomps (mixed wallbreaker with Draco Meteor) but I doubt it's high tier.

 

[Olly]

What I find funny atm is how the metagame has actually shaped up that Pheromosa never seems to do a great deal anymore. The metagame has shaped up that its hard checks are everywhere (Aegislash, Toxapex, Alolan Marowak). Protect is also being run more than previous gens. Whether that's enough to keep it in the metagame is debatable, especially when the #1 check is highly up for debate itself.

And honestly min-speed Aegislash is just bad in OU. It was bad in XY too as it means things like Hippowdon outspeed you. My problem with Aegislash is I can tolerate it, but it's just centralising. Aegislash checks half the meta, and really it doesn't even need much bulk investment to do so, as it has an insane set of resistances that means it just flat out walls so much. This means it gets so many easy opportunities to switch in, and then itself it's very hard to switch in on. There are very few good switch ins to it, and stuff like Mandibuzz would be terrible in the metagame otherwise with all the Fairy spam around. One issue here I think is it looks worse than it is right now because Zygarde-Complete is everywhere and craps all over it, but that thing is definitely broken so won't be around for long.

 

[M BLADE]

Mega Alakazam can be effective once you get rid of Pheromosa; pretty fast, Psychic Terrain can boost Psychic to ludicrous levels and letting M-Alakazam avoid priority, and with the new abilities that can be copied with Trace get Beast Boost to raise it's SpA to ridiculous levels, and such.
Plays against Mega Alakazam is the huge amount of bug pokemons infesting the tier, and Aegislash being everwhere (Shadow Ball will 2HKO Aegislash though) and the already mentioned Pheromosa.

 

[Maid-]

Aegislash just simplifies teambuilding for those using it to a ridiculous extent whilst making teambuilding a total pain in the ass for everyone else. Pheromosa is a crazy monster, but it is nowhere near as broken as aegislash. The combination of EXCELLENT typing, the best protect in the game, checking half of the metagame, and exerting insane offensive pressure whilst having a wide variety of sets to run all on one mon is just too much. pls suspect so my sub/focus punch bulk up buzzwole can run wild

 

[Jerdor]

People keep saying that Power Construct is the problem, but isn't it more Thousand Arrows that's the problem? One is a free Sitrus Berry while the other is a one move answer to everything standing in Zygarde's way.

 

[Jukain]

I think it's a tad disingenuous to state that slower HP versions of Aegislash are actually worse than offensive versions (fast LO). It's similar to how Scarf Genesect isn't actually worse than CB or EBelt variants or whatever. Perhaps it may feel vanilla or sometimes a tad underwhelming because it's what people expect, but you have to remember that these sets are standard for a reason. With HP, Aegislash is very bulky and more consistent and beating the things it is supposed to deal with, which tends to be important for teams that aren't hyper offense. You can run any number of options besides the standard SBall/KS/Sneak (prio is too crucial atm to give up Sneak on >1 attack Aegi imo) from Flash Cannon to Toxic to Sacred Sword to Pursuit...and there's still more things you can use. You can also run SubToxic, which outright destroys or severely screws with teams expecting something different or that just can't deal with it. Little is tanking SBalls from either of these sets comfortably regardless. In short, the sheer bulk, power, and versatility that Aegislash offers in its slower, bulkier sets is still very valuable, especially for teams that actually rely on Aegislash to beat stuff.

I'm saying this as someone who thinks fast LO Aegislash is absolutely ridiculous. All variants of Aegi have their place and I don't think any one set or subset is better than the others.

quick edit: I'm not supporting SpD Aegislash...this is speaking for max HP/max SpA-ish spreads

RedzoneX

re: celesteela evs

I was originally interested in some physical bulk (similar spread to you), but now I'd generally err on the side of more spdef due to Landorus. Here's the difference:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Celesteela: 166-196 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Celesteela: 155-183 (38.9 - 45.9%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 146-172 (36.6 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

More SpD also helps with things like tanking Flamethrowers from Genesect comfortably, dealing with LO Aegi (lower SpD variants can get 2HKOed by LO Shadow Ball), tanking Tapu Lele with a power-boosting item in general, and general special bulk...it's just too important I think.

 

[SJCrew]

Sure, depending on how much Speed you want to invest into your Aegislash, you can counter A-Marowak. But (a) you will open yourself up to some other weaknesses if you do that and (b) you make the set weaker overall to do so, either by having less offenses or less bulk. So what you're saying is I don't even have to run A-Marowak on my team to make Aegislash weaker by its presence in the meta? Cool...

So I watched your Replay and uh....there was no Aegislash 1v1. Ezio literally switched his Aegislash into your Shadow Ball because he mispredicted the Sacred Sword. I'm talking about a legit 1v1, not "Hey, let me switch in to this 80% dmg SE attack. Starting off on even footing here, guys."

Something dies and you end up with an Aegislash vs. Aegislash. What actually happens here is that the faster Aegislash uses Shadow Ball, fails to KO, then the slower Aegislash uses Shadow Ball and OHKOs. And yes, you can switch out, but something on your team will take that Shadow Ball every time it happens.

EDIT: I'm not going to deny that A-Marowak can get trashed if Aegi wants to invest in Speed. That's one of those golf clap, good job, you beat the meta by running HP Ice on your Venusaur moments. I don't personally think speed-invested Aegi is the best set, and if we get into specifics of EV spreads I can break down why more thoroughly.

If someone wants to post replays of them trashing whole teams with Aegislash at high ladder as has been claimed, I'd be happy to watch with an open mind.

So I watched your Replay and uh....there was no Aegislash 1v1. Ezio literally switched his Aegislash into your Shadow Ball because he mispredicted the Sacred Sword. I'm talking about a legit 1v1, not "Hey, let me switch in to this 80% dmg SE attack. Starting off on even footing here, guys."

You conveniently ignored the part where I could have died in Blade Forme anyway had I not speed crept that 'standard' spread everyone was running at the time, just like the one you claimed everyone should be running now. The 1v1 took place after both Aegislash were in, but all you saw was an excuse to seek a fallacy without addressing the meat of the post.

Also, cripes, dude, you cannot be serious about that 1v1 example. Why on Earth would I revenge your Aegislash with another Aegislash instead of a check? If the game completely hinges on that, it's effectively a lost game. But for the record: 252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 291-346 (89.8 - 106.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Offensive Aegislash wins games. Stop trying to defend what you think everyone 'should' be running, and start thinking about what actually garners the win. Aegislash already checks 90% of the faster meta with no EVs. Pheromosa, Genesect, Latios, Tapu Bulu, and fuck it, even Tapu Koko. If Aegislash gets in for free on a double, revenge, VoltTurn, or even a weak resisted move, that's a free Shadow Ball or setup move. On the other hand, if they sac their mon for damage, not only does the thing in front of them die, but Aegislash is still very well alive, even at 20-something%, to pull off more Shadow Ball/Shadow Sneak 50/50s, if not outright KO what's in front of it.

 

[JoeyVN]

You conveniently ignored the part where I could have died in Blade Forme anyway had I not speed crept that 'standard' spread everyone was running at the time, just like the one you claimed everyone should be running now. The 1v1 took place after both Aegislash were in, but all you saw was an excuse to seek a fallacy without addressing the meat of the post.

Also, cripes, dude, you cannot be serious about that 1v1 example. Why on Earth would I revenge your Aegislash with another Aegislash instead of a check? If the game completely hinges on that, it's effectively a lost game. But for the record: 252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 291-346 (89.8 - 106.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Offensive Aegislash wins games. Stop trying to defend what you think everyone 'should' be running, and start thinking about what actually garners the win. Aegislash already checks 90% of the faster meta with no EVs. Pheromosa, Genesect, Latios, Tapu Bulu, and fuck it, even Tapu Koko. If Aegislash gets in for free on a double, revenge, VoltTurn, or even a weak resisted move, that's a free Shadow Ball or setup move. On the other hand, if they sac their mon for damage, not only does the thing in front of them die, but Aegislash is still very well alive, even at 20-something%, to pull off more Shadow Ball/Shadow Sneak 50/50s, if not outright KO what's in front of it.

Both offensive and defensive are equally good. It depends on team archetype and what roles Aegis does in your team.

Beside, fast Aegis doesn't always win in a mirror. For example, Fast Aegis goes for Shadow Ball, but Standard Aegis uses King's Shield. Next turn, Standard Aegis could Shadow Sneak to (almost) OHKO fast Aegis in Blade form, or at least Fast Aegis will die after a LO recoil (if Fast Aegis uses negative Def nature then its a 50% OHKO):
8 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 216-254 (82.7 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Aegislash-Blade: 240-284 (91.9 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

In return, Shadow Sneak from Fast Aegis can't KO bulky Aegis in Shield form:
4 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 112-135 (34.6 - 41.7%) -- 76.2% chance to 3HKO

 

[Kakimori]

You conveniently ignored the part where I could have died in Blade Forme anyway had I not speed crept that 'standard' spread everyone was running at the time, just like the one you claimed everyone should be running now. The 1v1 took place after both Aegislash were in, but all you saw was an excuse to seek a fallacy without addressing the meat of the post.

Also, cripes, dude, you cannot be serious about that 1v1 example. Why on Earth would I revenge your Aegislash with another Aegislash instead of a check? If the game completely hinges on that, it's effectively a lost game. But for the record: 252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 291-346 (89.8 - 106.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Offensive Aegislash wins games. Stop trying to defend what you think everyone 'should' be running, and start thinking about what actually garners the win. Aegislash already checks 90% of the faster meta with no EVs. Pheromosa, Genesect, Latios, Tapu Bulu, and fuck it, even Tapu Koko. If Aegislash gets in for free on a double, revenge, VoltTurn, or even a weak resisted move, that's a free Shadow Ball or setup move. On the other hand, if they sac their mon for damage, not only does the thing in front of them die, but Aegislash is still very well alive, even at 20-something%, to pull off more Shadow Ball/Shadow Sneak 50/50s, if not outright KO what's in front of it.

This is the defensive set I'm talking about:
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 226-268 (69.7 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Can always take a faster Aegislash's Shadow Ball and OHKO back. If I've been able to tell that your Aegislash is speed creeped, there are situations (perhaps one of the many, many, checks to Aegi has been taken out) where you'd be willing to take the hit and get the opposing Aegi off the field. And then, as you say, stick around even at 20% or something.

Also, I don't know if Ezio's Aegislash had LO or not, but if not Shadow Sneak would probably not have killed you even if you didn't speed creep. Coin flip, and you didn't know if his Aegislash was speed creeped so you were apparently cool on flipping a coin either way. Why focus on heads and not on tails?

El Oh El at calling my refusal to accept 20% vs. 100% starting life totals as a proper 1v1 a "fallacy". "Even though he was at 20% life and I was at 100%, he maybe coulda woulda shoulda killed me there instead!" ...yeah, nah. If you think it's a fallacy, switch the health totals.

You can still check Tapu Koko and Genesect reliably if you're both at full, but you pay some opportunity cost for running offensive as they can both blow you away much more easily than SpDef versions if you have even a little prior damage. The numbers actually get a little nastier if Genesect snags a SpA boost.

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 177-211 (67.8 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 136-161 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

8 SpA Life Orb Genesect Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 140-166 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 SpA Life Orb Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 107-127 (33 - 39.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO

You're right about Pheromosa, Latios, and Tapu Bulu, though Tapu Bulu can at least Leech Seed Aegi on the switch.

I will concede that offensive Aegislash opens up holes in HO especially if given free switch-ins. It depends on play style, too. Of course Offensive Aegislash wins games. Endeavor Rattata wins games. Defensive Aegislash wins games too. I prefer the latter. Is that what this discussion is about?

 

[KingKdot]

This is the defensive set I'm talking about:
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 226-268 (69.7 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Can always take a faster Aegislash's Shadow Ball and OHKO back. If I've been able to tell that your Aegislash is speed creeped, there are situations (perhaps one of the many, many, checks to Aegi has been taken out) where you'd be willing to take the hit and get the opposing Aegi off the field. And then, as you say, stick around even at 20% or something.

Also, I don't know if Ezio's Aegislash had LO or not, but if not Shadow Sneak would probably not have killed you even if you didn't speed creep. Coin flip, and you didn't know if his Aegislash was speed creeped so you were apparently cool on flipping a coin either way. Why focus on heads and not on tails?

El Oh El at calling my refusal to accept 20% vs. 100% starting life totals as a proper 1v1 a "fallacy". "Even though he was at 20% life and I was at 100%, he maybe coulda woulda shoulda killed me there instead!" ...yeah, nah. If you think it's a fallacy, switch the health totals.

You can still check Tapu Koko and Genesect reliably if you're both at full, but you pay some opportunity cost for running offensive as they can both blow you away much more easily than SpDef versions if you have even a little prior damage. The numbers actually get a little nastier if Genesect snags a SpA boost.

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 177-211 (67.8 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 136-161 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

8 SpA Life Orb Genesect Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 140-166 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 SpA Life Orb Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 107-127 (33 - 39.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO

You're right about Pheromosa, Latios, and Tapu Bulu, though Tapu Bulu can at least Leech Seed Aegi on the switch.

I will concede that offensive Aegislash opens up holes in HO especially if given free switch-ins. It depends on play style, too. Of course Offensive Aegislash wins games. Endeavor Rattata wins games. Defensive Aegislash wins games too. I prefer the latter. Is that what this discussion is about?

I think you got that specially defensive set from the Ubers analysis from last gen. It is heavily invested in SpDef to check Xerneas. That is not the standard bulky Aegislash set in OU. Also wtf are you talking about with Rattatta? You sound like you could use a break from this discussion.