Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

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I think you got that specially defensive set from the Ubers analysis from last gen. It is heavily invested in SpDef to check Xerneas. That is not the standard bulky Aegislash set in OU. Also wtf are you talking about with Rattatta? You sound like you could use a break from this discussion.
It's the Aegislash set I personally prefer as a bulky pivot and always have. My point with Rattata is that saying "X wins games!" doesn't really mean anything since any sort of pokemon can win games. Offensive Aegislash winning games =/= defensive Aegislash doesn't win games. This is not a zero sum game.

EDIT: Also, I'm glad that Aegislash has been dropped for ~5 days now? and we already have an agreed-upon standard set in OU. Good to know...
 
It's the Aegislash set I personally prefer as a bulky pivot and always have. My point with Rattata is that saying "X wins games!" doesn't really mean anything since any sort of pokemon can win games. Offensive Aegislash winning games =/= defensive Aegislash doesn't win games. This is not a zero sum game.
No one said that. You are creating straw man after straw man. You are the one who said Aegislash only runs a -Speed nature, so other people talked about the merits of fast aegi.
 
my god can you shut up with this fruitless discussion. max hp is better on most teams, offensive/fast orb is good on ho or teams that want stuff softened up thanks to its insane offences and coverage, and on said teams max hp is still viable because it's aegislash. it depends on the team, it is team specific, it depends on what you're looking for: word it however you want, it isn't hard to grasp and it doesn't require page after page of poor logic and horrendous one-liners to determine this.



 

p2

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why am i reading some drivel on defensive aegi when aegi is broken, not purely because of its fucking ridiculous offensive presence but the utter aids effect it has on the meta? ever notice how some mons like almost all psychic types, (do not bring up lele here) a massive majority of fairies and fighting types are never seen in the meta when aegi is running around? aegis sole presence in the meta makes all of these mons borderline unviable, and is absurd when it comes to building because it limits your options so much and all of its limited answers lose to another one of aegi's good sets, ill use spdef hippo as an example here: it handles aegi fine but crumbles to subtox. other things like mandi get melted by aoa w/ flash cannon or lure head smash sets (latter is v rare atm tho). it puts tremendous pressure on the opponent to beat it because if they do manage to have the right matchup, they need to "play" through the unholy bullshit move known as kings shield, you're effectively turning the game into 50/50s only when aegi is on the field, its far too punishing to mispredict against, usually ending in you losing -2 attack or getting nuked to hell and back by a mon that has the same offense as fucking deoxys-n, and we all know how well having it in the tier lasted.

i know im going to see "but it has low bp moves", thats mostly irrelevant when its strong enough to 2hko anything resembling a sweeper in the tier with sball+sneak, keep in mind that this is a mon with 50/150/150 bulk and one of the best type combinations in the entire game able to fire off these ridiculous powered moves.

aegi doesnt have a single trait alone that screams broken or banworthy, but when you look at it in the big picture where all of its insane qualities all come together, you quickly realise that this isn't a mon we should be trying to preserve in the meta because it needlessly gimps metagame growth by completely warping the meta around itself and shutting out god knows how many mons.
 
No one said that. You are creating straw man after straw man. You are the one who said Aegislash only runs a -Speed nature, so other people talked about the merits of fast aegi.
SJCrew literally just said "Offensive Aegislash wins games." OK? Yes? And?

-Speed nature is the most generally efficient considering the nature of the pokemon. You want to take a hit in shield form, switch to blade, and do your damage. Investing speed can make sense from a meta standpoint to counter a few specific pokemon. If you invest fully into speed and offenses, your pokemon will have certain merits against certain teams, and certain weaknesses against others. I think the extra damage is not worth the lesser bulk and fewer switch-in opportunities. In a very narrow meta, maybe. In a broader meta, I could draw up a list of things that speed-invested Aegislash loses to that min-speed Aegislash doesn't.

Frankly I agree with tigers jaw and it's not worth continuing the discussion. Let's move on.

I'm thinking SpDef Jirachi will eventually make a resurgence to deal with stuff like Specs Magearna and Tapu Lele. Thoughts?
 
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Torkoal is a really good drought starter giving both rocks and rapid spin, but I wish we had Mega Houndoom. It's sad that sun's best mega is unreleased
 
Torkoal is a really good drought starter giving both rocks and rapid spin, but I wish we had Mega Houndoom. It's sad that sun's best mega is unreleased
Haven't had a chance to try the new weather mons yet. I've been trying out Decidueye tho and it's awesome. For example, it sits on Tapu Koko if it doesn't have Brave Bird, and most don't right now. Unfortunately no one is using because aegis.

Decidueye @ Leftovers
248 Hp/20 Atk/240 SpD
Careful Nature
-Spirit Shackle
-U-Turn
-Roost
-Defog

Oh yeah, it can trap and kill ferrothorn and celesteel too. Forgot about that.
 
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I love decidueye but man he's hard to use with all these killers around like Genesect, Phero, and Aegislash. Maybe in a few months we'll see how he truly shakes up in this meta.
 
Good core: Tapu Fini + Marowak-A

Scald aint burn (Tapu Fini) @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 240 HP / 208 SpA / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Moonblast
- Defog
- Taunt / HP Fire / Protect

Slow but I'm Good (Marowak-Alola) @ Thick Club
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 12 SpD / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Shadow Bone
- Bonemerang
- Substitute / Stealth Rock


The 2 pokemon has good synergy together, and checking tons of broken stuff in the meta (Zygarde, Phero, Aegis, Tapu Koko, Xurkitree, etc.). They provide SR + Defog for the team, while keeping up the offensive pressure with their strong STABs.
Tapu Fini speed creep defensive Lando-I and OHKO with Hydro Pump, while has enough bulk to avoid 4HKO from Zygarde. A more defensive spread could be used but at least 84 SpA investment is needed to guarantee breaking Zygarde-C's sub.
Marowak-A has enough speed to creep base 65s (Magearna, Pelipper), bulk investment to prevent LO Tapu Koko and Celesteela from breaking your sub. Max attack with Adamant to hit as hard as possible (this set can destroy stall on its own as Zygarde is the only thing on stall could switch into this thing, and it lacks reliable recovery)

Celesteela: provide Ground immunity, and more importantly, counter Lando-I, which causes trouble for the core
Tapu Koko or Xurkitree: fast Electric adds the needed speed to the core, beating opposing bulky Water type (Tapu Fini, Toxapex, etc.)


P/s: Right after I made the post Zygarde-C got banned. Anyways the core is still very solid though, one less threat to worry about.
 
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I don't know what kind of KoolAid y'all are drinking to think Aegislash isn't absurd right now. It has the same effect it did back in XY; dictating what mons are worth using simply by existing. It's just not completely obvious because we have shit like Zygarde and Smogmosa running around that a Pokemon that can be slapped on every single team and instantly make it better due to having like 10 viable sets seems tame. If you want to keep a Pokemon that checks half of everything because you need a teambuilding crutch then cool, but don't hide behind "lol Aegislash is fine I swear Marowak beats it".
 
you know its kind of telling that alot of the people saying Aegislash isn't busted probably weren't around during its XY Days. When Aegis was in the tier the meta became stale fast, and its ban only allowed more mons to become viable and really freshened up the place. I still remember how when it got banished Frail Megas like Garde and Cham were suddenly viable because it was gone, and the game was more fun for it. its clearly the same here.

Also, as somebody who uses A.Marowak at every conceivable opportunity, its not an Answer to Aegislash at all, not even close. Marowak relies on the Aegis player getting kill happy and clicking Shadow Sneak (which it can take) over Shadow Ball, because then it KOs with anything in its arsenal, but since 99% of Aegislash are offensive RN, be it fast or bulky Offensive (Regardless of what you think is better or not, thats just how it is) they WILL outspeed and kill you unless your running a fuck ton of Speed EVs and banking on them running none, but then your running speed on a Marowak, what are you doing?

I'm all for an Aegis ban to see if it going allows other, currently non viable Pheremosa answers make themselves known (Or if we are just going to be stuck with Toxapex and Marowak) but even then, Pheremosa is similar to Aegislash, in that, as long as its in the tier, it restricts Team Building on its own more than is healthy, so it will follow soon after, most likely.

When the obvious is gone tho, i wonder how the meta will shape up. I'm not sure if Greninja is still a stop to Hyper Offensive teams the way it was circa ORAS, because obviously Offence have Pheremosa rn, and any team without them has Aegislash or Toxapex or a variety of other anti Pheremosa mons Greninja can't get through. Genesect is still as great for Momentum and checks as ever, but i think that may be the standard now with the advent of the Tapus, but Download may still be too much for the tier. The Tapus themselves are already warping the Meta around themselves as expected, because Terrains are that good. Its really interesting to see how a meta post these 3 monsters shapes up.
 

SJCrew

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you know its kind of telling that alot of the people saying Aegislash isn't busted probably weren't around during its XY Days. When Aegis was in the tier the meta became stale fast, and its ban only allowed more mons to become viable and really freshened up the place. I still remember how when it got banished Frail Megas like Garde and Cham were suddenly viable because it was gone, and the game was more fun for it. its clearly the same here.
To shamelessly ape this point of reference, I'd just like to provide a friendly reminder that this actually happened, and Mega Medicham was forced into UU for a time with Aegislash around. That was just the tip of the iceberg in terms of how suffocating this mon was.

We actually tested it twice last gen. Some people were convinced that ORAS was a different enough metagame that Aegislash could fit into, but it ended up doing exactly the same thing. We're on try number three, and I think it's about time we consider taking this thing off the table for future ban lists like we did Shaymin, Darkrai, and the Deoxys forms, until it receives some serious nerfs. The nature of what it does just doesn't suit a standard competitive metagame.
 

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I've been usin this Pheromosa set


Pheromosa @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 216 Atk / 40 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Ice Beam
- Poison Jab

I think it's better right now because there isn't a whole lot of relevant stuff in between the 401 and 441 Speed brackets aside from other Pheros. If stuff like M-Lop, M-Scpet, and M-drill were around I think it'd be a different argument, but alas. It's EV'd to get Speed boosts once it gets a kill and the difference between 216 Naughty and 252 Naive is fairly significant with 27 extra Attack and more SpA for some rare targets that it doesn't straight OHKO, such as Hippowdon.

Some relevant stuff the extra attack does are securing the OHKO on Keldeo from full, provide a chance to ohko offensive Jirachi/Manaphy from full with HJK, and has a 25% chance to ohko Volcanion from full. Kinda smaller stuff, yeah, but phero's main impact on the tier is being able to single-handedly dismantle offensive teams. You do it better if your opponent has less options for checking this other worldly creature by preserving mons at full. Most of the time you'll just come in on a Pokemon that has less than 401 Speed (98% of Offensive Pokemon), force a kill assuming they aren't running aegislash offense, and get your Speed boost.
 
To shamelessly ape this point of reference, I'd just like to provide a friendly reminder that this actually happened, and Mega Medicham was forced into UU for a time with Aegislash around. That was just the tip of the iceberg in terms of how suffocating this mon was.

We actually tested it twice last gen. Some people were convinced that ORAS was a different enough metagame that Aegislash could fit into, but it ended up doing exactly the same thing. We're on try number three, and I think it's about time we consider taking this thing off the table for future ban lists like we did Shaymin, Darkrai, and the Deoxys forms, until it receives some serious nerfs. The nature of what it does just doesn't suit a standard competitive metagame.
Absolutely agreed. I didn't speak very much back then but I was around to witness Aegislash in XY OU. If it's banned this time (which I feel that it should, just to mark my stance on the subject) then it should stay as such. I wouldn't want to see Aegi's ORAS test repeat itself a couple of years down the line.
 
Ill be that crazy guy, i'd love to see Darkrai and Deoxys-D brought back for a round of testing. Truthfully, I don't think Darkrai will actually be ok in the OU meta, but I'd still like to see it :(. Deoxys-D however. I honestly think the mere will be able to handle at this point.

All this of course being AFTER we deal with the craziness of the current meta.

And to reiterate what I said in another topic:

I think Hoopa-U is a huge problem, at least right now. It obliterates the current hyper offensive teams, as well as balance teams. The thing is unreal. I do however, think we should wait to test it until aegis is gone and the meta has a chance to diversify to deal with it.

Genesect. I really think people are overreacting about it. Does it hit hard? Yes. It's also relatively predictable, and with rocky helmet Toxapex around, U-turn spam is no longer a safe strategy.

Aegislash should only go if you are willing to send Pherromosa with it. They are basically two sides of the same coin. Aegis checks to much and Phero kills to much. Without aegis, Phero will have free reign over the whole meta.
 
Ill be that crazy guy, i'd love to see Darkrai and Deoxys-D brought back for a round of testing. Truthfully, I don't think Darkrai will actually be ok in the OU meta, but I'd still like to see it :(. Deoxys-D however. I honestly think the mere will be able to handle at this point.

All this of course being AFTER we deal with the craziness of the current meta.

And to reiterate what I said in another topic:

I think Hoopa-U is a huge problem, at least right now. It obliterates the current hyper offensive teams, as well as balance teams. The thing is unreal. I do however, think we should wait to test it until aegis is gone and the meta has a chance to diversify to deal with it.

Genesect. I really think people are overreacting about it. Does it hit hard? Yes. It's also relatively predictable, and with rocky helmet Toxapex around, U-turn spam is no longer a safe strategy.

Aegislash should only go if you are willing to send Pherromosa with it. They are basically two sides of the same coin. Aegis checks to much and Phero kills to much. Without aegis, Phero will have free reign over the whole meta.
I don't really think rocky helmet on one mon is enough to say we're good in terms of checks to genesect. I'm p sure both aegi and phero will go real quick, I'm writing tho to say ye Hoopa gotta go. this thing is just as much of a bitch as ever, basically netting a KO every time it comes in. Plus a KO right off the bat cause u gotta find out what set it is, and when you expect specs you get smacked with a goddamn banded hyperspace fury. pls also quickban this.
 
Mega Alakazam can be effective once you get rid of Pheromosa; pretty fast, Psychic Terrain can boost Psychic to ludicrous levels and letting M-Alakazam avoid priority, and with the new abilities that can be copied with Trace get Beast Boost to raise it's SpA to ridiculous levels, and such.
Plays against Mega Alakazam is the huge amount of bug pokemons infesting the tier, and Aegislash being everwhere (Shadow Ball will 2HKO Aegislash though) and the already mentioned Pheromosa.
Mega Zam is great against magearna as well. Copying Soul Heart is scary to play against.
 
Because we are expecting a quick ban in Aegis i realized that this sword-shield thing now has a lot of answer to it in both offensively and defensively side.
I'll list some of then:

-Amoongus

I was thinking about this little drug, and i realized that its form a powerfull regencore on Toxapex. Both are imune to toxic and Amoongus has acess to "Foul Play" that makes him able to deal with Aegislash. A spdef ev spread is needed in order to play against aegis and i personaly think amoongus is the best defensive counter do Aegis.

-Assault Vest Tangrowth

It has knock off, earthquake and leech seed. Also form a nice regen core on Toxapex.

-SP def Mandibuzz

Mandibuzz sp def is a great check to aegis as it is to Hoopa-U.

-Celestela

Celestela has flamethrower and leech seed.

-Infiltrator Chandelure

It is a awesome check, and a fire-type pokemon that cannot be trapped by dugtrio. It also check Pheromosa well.

-Sp def Hippowdown.

It can deal Aegislash well.

-Hoopa-U

Its a powerfull check to almost everything playable on tier.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-480353779

-Earthquake user in general

-Zyrgarde

-Tapu Lele

With Nature Madness (A wonderfull move, i think) and Shadown Ball it can outspeed aegis and kill it. Tapu Lele is still imune to shadow Sneak.

A replay of Tapu Lele against Aegislash
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-480447011
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-480441087
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-480437389

The Tapu's Core can even help to play agains Aegis.

For Example, With tapu Fini, Aegis cannot toxic grounded pokemon.
They have shadown ball and nature madness.
With Psysurge, M-Alakazam can Shadown Ball Aegislash.
-Clefable with Knock Off

It can cripple Aegis
-Mega-Metagross with earthquake

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-480444279

-Landorus-i

-Even Bisharp with defiant can be a good answer to Aegis to knock off or pursuit trap it.


I guess there are more, but i almost always play on defensive side, so i cannot say much about other things.

Kiki~


@Edit
Even pokemon suchs Latiwins and cresselia can trick choice itens.
 
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Halcyon.

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Because we have so few Mega Pokemon to choose from at the moment, I think Mega Venusaur is my favorite in the current metagame. It has the typing, bulk, and ability to check a lot of threats right now. It can check Aegislash, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Koko, Tapu Fini, Greninja, Pheromosa, and Genesect. This thing may be passive, which isn't great with all the VoltTurn spam right now, but it pairs so well with mons like Celesteela, Heatran, Tapu Fini, and others that choosing it makes a lot of sense right now. It can also run Sleep Powder or Leech Seed to force switches and gain momentum in your favor. I like this thing quite a lot, and I wonder how it will stand in the future metagame.
 
Because we have so few Mega Pokemon to choose from at the moment, I think Mega Venusaur is my favorite in the current metagame. It has the typing, bulk, and ability to check a lot of threats right now. It can check Aegislash, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Koko, Tapu Fini, Greninja, Pheromosa, and Genesect. This thing may be passive, which isn't great with all the VoltTurn spam right now, but it pairs so well with mons like Celesteela, Heatran, Tapu Fini, and others that choosing it makes a lot of sense right now. It can also run Sleep Powder or Leech Seed to force switches and gain momentum in your favor. I like this thing quite a lot, and I wonder how it will stand in the future metagame.
I think another thing important to mention is the burn nerf, which means it can switch into Scald more easily since the threat of a burn isn't so great anymore.
 
I'm really liking Excadrill right now, particularly the Sp. Def set. Not saying it's a super top-tier mon but it's quite handy and fulfils its role well. With all the crazy stuff running around the hazard game has kind of flown under the radar. There has been a subtly perceptible shift from ORAS, with Stealth Rock a little bit harder (not implying it's difficult at all but there are more considerations) to fit onto a team at the moment, especially depending on the build, with people resorting to shoehorning it in on Lando-I or Dugtrio for example. Spikes haven't been as common in my experience and Toxapex's usage has brought on Toxic Spikes as an additional issue to deal with.

Removal options have also seen a bit of change. Mantine and Pelipper have been popular as defoggers with the Lati twins not quite as ubiquitous and the prominence of Aegislash (ban tbqh), among other things like Greninja and Mega Sableye, deterring Starmie's usage as a spinner (although for some reason I've seen Rapid Spin Pheromosa quite a few times, like why???) These factors led me to try out Sp. Def Excadrill and its role compression and positive traits, some of which could very well transfer into Choice Scarf Exca as well, have worked out.

This is the set I've been using with some accompanying explanation:


Excadrill (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 212 SpD / 44 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic/Iron Head/ Swords Dance
- Earthquake

As much bulk as possible on the special side with enough speed (223) to outspeed 144 Speed EV Tapu Bulu and Lando-T's and Rotom-W's with cheeky speed EV's.

Mold Breaker alllows it to set up Stealth Rock against Mega Sableye (still a bastard) and it can Toxic Mega Sableye, pressuring it a lot. Toxic also helps against Mantine and Pelipper and other bulky switchins in general, putting them on a timer so to speak. Its typing with Sp. Def invesment allows it to answer Tapu Koko quite handily which is a big threat right now. It also works as a check to Aegislash with Earthquake barring offensive Sacred Sword+ Shadow Sneak variants. Other things it matches up well against, particularly as Stealth Rock setters, are Nihilego, Alolan Marowak (can't switch into it but Exca outspeeds and OHKO's, not a safe spinblock at all), Clefable etc.

Other move options are also definitely usable. Iron Head 2HKO's Tapu Bulu unless it's like Max HP/Max Def Bold, punishes Clefable and other fairies. Swords Dance pressures slower builds especially the Aegi/Toxapex defensive core although I've found it not as good as Toxic/Iron Head and kinda situational.

Support wise Sp. Def Excadrill appreciates Electric types to account for Celesteela, Skarmory and fat Water-types and a Ghost partner like Aegislash or Sableye to block opposing Spin attempts and Fighting type moves, neither of which are too strenuous to incorporate in my opinion.

Would be interested to hear other people's opinions on the state of the hazard game in general right now and where they think it will go in the near future after Aegi ban/meta settling a bit.
 
Ok, so Swellow is actually a legitimate threat now. Outspeeds almost everything in the tier, can OHKO fast and frail mon with specs boomburst.
To be honest this also open up interesting option, which may actually make Guts Swellow interesting alternative.

You may drop Protect which is necessary otherwise as no one will stay with any frail target in a fear of taking Boomburst in the face (and some bulkier ones also won't enjoy it). While it's true that unlike Specs set this one is walled by steel types (and rock if you miss Steel Wing) you can just ignore them and U-turn on turn they switch in. In this case pair it up with Dugtrio (grounded rock and steel types won't enjoy this) or Magnezone / Probopass / Magneton and trap steel types which otherwise wall it. And suddenly you have free reign to nuke everything with STAB Brave Bird / Facade with extremely fast Pokemon. Problem unfortunately is Aegislash (like always) but Pursuit Bisharp may also fix this problem, so it's doable. Or good Z-Move lure. Priority sucks as well, but at least you have Quick Attack as possible option. But as a cleaner I would consider this fella or part of VolTurn cores.

And I support SpD Excadrill just because of Mold Breaker - makes a solid member for more defensive teams so they can actually throw entry hazard on Mega Sableye. Plus he has access to Rapid Spin, which is even better for Stall / Semi-Stall.
 
I've tried a few different Mega Venusaur teams but I've been fairly underwhelmed, mostly for the same reasons I disliked this pokemon in gen 6- its shaky recovery. At full health it's a good answer to many dangerous pokemon, but it feels far too easy to pressure and wear down, especially since a lot of the pokemon it beats run u-turn/volt switch. It comes in to rocks, tanks a volt switch from e.g. tapu koko, and already it's on 60-70% staring down an unfavourable matchup. Things go downhill pretty quickly from there, especially when your only recovery is the shitty Synthesis. Am I not playing this pokemon correctly? It feels like the first domino to fall every game.

I've found myself relying on Amoonguss more and more. It checks basically the same pokemon as Venusaur, but while Venu is worn down easily Amoongus is more-or-less invulnerable to attrition thanks to Regenerator. With Venusaur, it feels like if I make one mistake it gets to a % where it no longer functions as a check. With Amoonguss, It almost feels like I can play as cavalier as I like, if I mispredict and it tanks a random SE coverage move who cares? It's just getting the health back anyway. Spore is also an incredibly valuable tool; Venusaur does get Sleep Powder, but it has to tank its coverage to use it and it misses all the time. I've actually found myself eschewing the mega slot entirely on some teams that I built for Mega Venusaur since Amoonguss feels far more reliable and effective in the slot.
 
On the topic of grass mons, who else finds Kartana pretty underwhelming? With all the talk about it's 181 base attack it seems to be easily checked, especially against anything with more than 109 speed that uses special attacks. A resisted Volt Switch from Tapu Koko will do 63.8 - 75.3% to it, how frail this thing is.
 
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