Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

[volx757]

also, what does everyone like to run in mega gyarados' last slot? i usually see earthquake which is nice and all for hitting toxapex and Water/Dark resists for solid damage, but has anyone actually used taunt or substitute? i've used the latter and it's pretty decent for avoiding status and intimidates, but it doesn't work against stall as well as it did last generation anymore with all the phasing and hazing going around. i think earthquake or another coverage move like iron head if you're very weak to bulu or clefable is the way to go.

I was running twave for a little while, making use of that + intimidate support a couple times before coming in for the final sweep later. You could also hit pheromosa on the switch so that you can sweep at +1 (if the situation allows for that). However, you'll still need to get +2 to kill some things you can't hit SE with crunch/waterfall, and I've found EQ to be useful in more situations. Haven't tried iron head, but it sounds like it could be a good one as bulu is among the most common m-gyra switchins right now and is OHKOd at +1. Notably, iron head doesn't get the ohko on physically defensive MG clefable at +1.

 

[oreofestar]

I think that the discusion is too ban-happy right now. If we're discussing a lot of bans, we may end with 25 or so bans in 1 year or so, in a tier where in many cases, it would be unusable, which crashes with the spirit of OU. I know that UU and RU but those tiers are secondary compared to OU (and the majority of BL are OU viable, at least in Gen VI).

I think that we had to wait until PokeBank and wait a few weeks more to see what happens to the National Pokedex and with the unreleased Mega Stones*. I will say this because Tapu Lele may have a problem with some Fairies that are currently unreleased (like Mega Altaria or Mega Gardevoir). I think it's the case of Tapu Lele.

And of today, I doubt that Tapu Koko is broken. It's Speed is really high, but 1) Its Main Physical STAB Is Wild Charge, that causes recoil and it's only 90 BP, 2) his physical coverage is resisted to non-STAB Brave Bird and U-turn, none of them covering 3 of the 4 types that Wild Charge can't, including the one that is inmune (and it doesn't cover Ferrothorn, who at least has Iron Barbs). 3) It only has Base 95 Special Attack, not 130 and 4) Only has Thunderbolt, Thunder, Dazzling Gleam (not Moonblast), Grass Knot and Hidden Power. Give it time to at least stabilizing the metagame.

*I doubt that missing Mega Stones would be unreleased long after PokeBank is released.

Quick Bans are an EXCEPTIONAL method of dealing with bans when it was so obvious that they broken and make the metagame unplayable (Mega Salamence in ORAS OU, what was worse than XY Xerneas in Ubers) or it contrainsts the metagame too much (XY Mega Kangaskhan, XY Mega lucario, BW Shaymin-Sky, SM Zygarde-Complete).

And Hoppa-Unbound is an event Pokemon that has 680 BP and its allowed to have an item. The rare thing is why is in OU (it is because of his really bad defense).

I agree after Pheromosa and Genesect I'm fine with letting everything else stay for the time being and letting the meta develop before making unnecessary bans.

 

[Darvin]

I've been playing around with Dugtrio since the start of this meta. Pheromosa looked like such a massive threat on paper, and with Toxapex being its most obvious counter (with all the extra usage that comes with new toy syndrome) I saw a huge opportunity for it to pair up with the newly-buffed Dugtrio to punch holes in teams. Over the last few weeks I've been trying out quite a few sets on different team variants, among them Focus Sash, Choice Band, Life Orb, and even Choice Scarf (there is nothing more satisfying that catching a lead Pheromosa with an Aerial Ace). However, I'd say my personal favorite definitely has to be Groundium Z

Dugtrio @ Groundium Z
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Sucker Punch
- Memento

Some notable calcs:

252 Atk Dugtrio Tectonic Rage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 264-312 (86.8 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Dugtrio Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu-Alola: 222-262 (85 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Dugtrio Tectonic Rage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 312-367 (111 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Tectonic Rage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 344-408 (114.2 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Tectonic Rage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 450-530 (131.9 - 155.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And those are just the most notable OHKO's that come to mind off the top of my head. Many other pokemon - some of them not even weak to ground, like Tapu Lele - are removed with only a modest amount of prior damage. I pair Dugtrio with a volt-turn core to give it the chip damage and switch-in opportunities it craves. With Dugtrio's ability to remove Toxapex in particular, many defensive cores simply crumble on the spot. What amazes me is how few people are running Shed Shell. It's not like Toxapex needs Black Sludge recovery because of how much recovery it already has, but its Dugtrio vulnerability prevents it from doing its job reliably against teams who run this trapper. Dugtrio is no niche threat, either; I see so many other players running Dugtrio in this meta.

So yeah, if there's a take-home to this post, it's that Dugtrio is insanely good and you should be running Shed Shell on your Toxapex, Substitute on your Raichu-A, and generally Dugtrio-proofing anything that's vulnerable to this brutally-efficient trapper.

 

[skybattler262]

I've finally been able to reach Ladder 1300+ when I tested a sand team... and to be honest, Pursuit Trapping AV Tyranitar works wonders. It can survive hits vs. Tapu Lele's Moonblast (in order to retaliate Stone Edge or Pursuit-trap for decent damage) and help set-up Excadrill in a pinch to revenge kill faster threats like Pheromosa, Tapu Koko, and several other 'mons.

Just my thoughts, because I think AV Tyranitar can help deal with Choice Specs Tapu Lele as a check, since...
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar: 228-270 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
248+ Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 93-111 (33 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage
248+ Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 232-274 (82.5 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
(Usually, switch it in a Psychic Attack, Although not a KO, it dents it heavily on the switch out. Also, I'm using my own AV set using Fire Blast to dent Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Celesteele. I've seen a set that uses more SpD bulk, but I think this is a fairly good set due to my style of versatility above everything else.)
However, if it's Scarf, Lele is much easier to handle...
252+ SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar: 168-200 (41.5 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

However, maybe because I'm mentioning this now, Many LeLes will now run Focus Blast to blast AV Tyranitar to oblivion... Let's see if this happens...

 

[preserve]

However, maybe because I'm mentioning this now, Many LeLes will now run Focus Blast to blast AV Tyranitar to oblivion... Let's see if this happens...

I have seen a few lele's with focus blast recently. I'm sure though that av ttar can survive at least one though.

 

[BeardyBennett]

I've finally been able to reach Ladder 1300+ when I tested a sand team... and to be honest, Pursuit Trapping AV Tyranitar works wonders. It can survive hits vs. Tapu Lele's Moonblast (in order to retaliate Stone Edge or Pursuit-trap for decent damage) and help set-up Excadrill in a pinch to revenge kill faster threats like Pheromosa, Tapu Koko, and several other 'mons.

Just my thoughts, because I think AV Tyranitar can help deal with Choice Specs Tapu Lele as a check, since...
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar: 228-270 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
248+ Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 93-111 (33 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage
248+ Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 232-274 (82.5 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
(Usually, switch it in a Psychic Attack, Although not a KO, it dents it heavily on the switch out. Also, I'm using my own AV set using Fire Blast to dent Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Celesteele. I've seen a set that uses more SpD bulk, but I think this is a fairly good set due to my style of versatility above everything else.)
However, if it's Scarf, Lele is much easier to handle...
252+ SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar: 168-200 (41.5 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

However, maybe because I'm mentioning this now, Many LeLes will now run Focus Blast to blast AV Tyranitar to oblivion... Let's see if this happens...

The good news is they don't call it Focus Miss for nothing. I'm curious to see if anything else comes up as a Lele counter in the coming days as it's becoming the new hot-button beast to try and counter. I figured something like AV Ttar might work, but was too lazy to actually test it myself.

 

[HotFuzzBall]

I'm kinda surprised as how Mega Mawile slipped under radar under all this "quickban" mess. I think she's amazing right now considering the amount of Fairies and Psychics running around after the Aegislash ban. Then again, I can understand why since Psychic Terrain seems popular atm so that nullifies Sucker Punch which Mega Mawile kinda relies on sometimes soooo... thoughts?

 

[HailFall]

I'm kinda surprised as how Mega Mawile slipped under radar under all this "quickban" mess. I think she's amazing right now considering the amount of Fairies and Psychics running around after the Aegislash ban. Then again, I can understand why since Psychic Terrain seems popular atm so that nullifies Sucker Punch which Mega Mawile kinda relies on sometimes soooo... thoughts?

mawile isnt released lol you cant use it.

 

[heavylobster43]

Lele isn't a problem because it beats stall so much as it's a problem for beating bulky offense. Hard stall in general is already pretty vulnerable thanks to trappers and Z-move lures, but bulky offense is generally what suffers most from Psychic Terrain, since you now need speed rather than priority to revenge kill. You can argue whether or not this is a long-overdue rebuke to Scizor shenanigans, but right now you generally either need to run Rachi or Mega-Metagross for bulky-o, or run more speed in order to keep up.

 

[Chaoswalker]

Yeah, no mawile yet but I wouldn't be surprised if it had a chance to stick around this time. Psychic terrain does mess with it a lot, and even though Aegislash getting the boot was the nail in the coffin last time, we now have Toxapex who I should be able to switch into anything Mawile can dish out.

 

[QuickBH]

Psychic Spam is legit retarded, it's extremely common on the ladder and it forces you to run Genesect, Celesteela (which isn't the greatest rn as balance is not good) or Metagross (whom you have to play more aggressively against) because you can't remotely run M-Scizor as a check. Tapu Lele + Hoopa U + Mega Zam/Mega Gross and you get a free win. Talk about game decided by team preview. There is a ton more aids besides this but yeah this metagame is trash and it's safe to say minus the occassional tour I'm done with SuMo OU since AT best it's going to be late ORAS level "balance".

 

[Ropeburn]

Tapu Lele is pretty straight bullshit. 95 Speed isn't great, but it has to have one of the most bullshit abilities for Psychic types ever. You come in, get a kill, switch out, and do it later on. Focus Blast, Moonblast and Psychic have such incredible coverage, that unless you're running something like Celesteela,Skarm or Jirachi you're sure as shit not taking the hits well. Not to mention that Psychic Terrain doesn't just pertain to TapuLele itself. Mega Alakazam and Tapu Lele are a nasty combo, both with their fraility removed by the fact that they can just kill you under the terrain, and that the Terrain ignores priority and beefs up your STAB.

Genesect needs to stop being dropped down every time a new gen comes around, because it's inherently broken because of the combination of Download + STAB U-turn giving you so much free momentum. It doesn't matter if Genesect is predictable or not that strong, it's just insane how much it sways battles. Sure it has checks and counters, but the sheer amount of pressure it puts on teams is suffocating and does not encourage smart play. The meta right now is incredibly in favor of hyper offense, and Genesect is a major offender.

Pheromosa should have been quick banned alongside Aegislash. It's too strong on both sides of the spectrum, it shits on anything that isn't faster (Hope you have a scarf or Priority without PsychicTerrain), its attacks blow through almost everything like its nothing, specifically the 4 attacks Life Orb set.. almost the entire metagame is 2HKOed without any setup.

Greninja and Landorus are both in the same boat, where their insane movepool pretty much tears through checks and counters like paper. Their coverage, in combination with their solid sp.attack, is still a nightmare for any team that isn't running something hyper specific, and even then the user's coverage can determine if your team can even check it reliably.

 

[Salem1]

When you have almost no switch-ins just to your STABs without even needing to resort to a Z move there is definitely something up lol. And I don't mean like BW Hydreigon nuts where it technically has no counters but it is very dependent on non-STAB coverage to break through certain types, I mean like where you literally click your STABs and watch virtually the whole tier drop. I'm talking about stuff like Hoopa-U, Tapu Lele, Greninja etc. when I say this, and honestly I still think all of these things are completely insane.

On the topic of stuff that are completely insane, I think the other big issues (even bigger than the stuff above) are the U-turn spammers: Phero and Gene. There is so little counterplay to these things (my favorite is prolly Flame Body Chandelure 'cause of it's crispy 30% burn rate+HJK immunity, Ice Beam resistance and Flamethrower resistance) and honestly these two 'mons are just insanely cheap in general.

+1 to this and adding:

Things that spam voltturn as their STAB dumb the game down because there is no counter-play to it. Let's take the example given in this post to counter U-turn. Scizor has knock off which doesn't just hit the mon in this particular example super-effectively, but makes it impossible to punish u-turns with rocky helmet even if you are fine with him bringing in something which will set up on or KO that mon if it stays in after the hit. Genesect can simply use thunderbolt to 2HKO Chandelure, hitting it just once will both prevent it from switching in safely again and force it to switch out of the second hit. And magnet pull doesn't work on them, since they u-turn out of the ability. Every team has to run at least one electric immunity as well as 1-2 things that can absorb u-turns without being weak to coverage moves like knock off, boltbeam/flamethrower, superpower, etc. If you don't then you have no way of gaining momentum in the match, while all the thought he put into gaining it was clicking u-turn as many times as he could.

For utility to be balanced, it has to come at the cost of the mon not also being powerful and/or versatile enough to stand toe to toe with other mons. That's why for example Zoroark has 60/60/60 defenses. But mons that can spam volt-turn and still be as effective or more effective than a general mon turn that on its head. What could have added more counterplay to the strategy of volt-turn is if mons could carry super-effective priority against these mons but there are no fire or ground (or grass for rotom) priority moves.

Me personally I would rather play against stuff like Tapu Lele than Genesect and other things with u-turn+knock off or volt switch. At least with Lele it's at all possible to counter the mon (although psyshock for sp. walls and moonblast to hit darks along with not knowing whether it has specs, scarf or a choice item at all makes it a pain in the @ss)

 

[RabidChipmunk]

I've seen a lot of talk about the threat of Psychic spam and I was wondering, what merit does Honchkrow have as a check to this play style? The biggest thing I see in him is a very strong STAB Sucker Punch that can go through Psychic Terrain since Honchkrow doesn't touch the ground. It also does a number to Tapu Lele -- it's a 2HKO after SR.

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 203-239 (72.2 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And since Honchkrow can actually use its priority, that means he can also play 50/50's with Pursuit as well.

Personally I think Honchkrow is a cute idea, but his frailty can be a big problem and he suffers from 4MSS (Sucker Punch and Brave Bird are non-negotiable, meaning you have to choose between Pursuit, Superpower, and Roost), and I'm not sure the assistance he provides isn't already done better by some OU-mon I've forgotten about. He's certainly no counter to Psychic spam either way, and if he's your sole answer to it you're going to have a bad time, but I thought it might be interesting to see what others think about his merits.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

The biggest thing I see in him is a very strong STAB Sucker Punch that can go through Psychic Terrain since Honchkrow doesn't touch the ground.

Psychic Terrain protects grounded pokemon, it doesn't prevent them from using priority. Grounded pokemon can still use priority, and it will work against flying/levitating pokemon who are not touching the terrain.

I wouldn't rely on 50/50's to check anything. If you want a dark-type to check Tapu Lele and pursuit trap it I would go with Alolan Muk, who's neutral to Moonblast (and has the special bulk to take several) and neutral to stealth rock. It only does half with a successful pursuit, however.

 

[Siggu]

If using something that can hit Tapu Lele hard and first, Mega Metagross's Meteor Mash is the first thing that comes to my mind. While there's still the threat of Scarf Lele, it's the only set that outspeeds Metagross... which can also take advantage of Psychic Terrain to power up its Zen Headbutt, in case it carries the move :P

Although, of course, there's Metagross's nasty 4MSS...

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

Adamant Pheromosa with Scarf is so stupid D: I think you could say it is a improved Scarf Moxie Heracross for OU
(Seriously, can we suspect Pheromosa once Bank is out?)

 

[Machi]

Adamant Pheromosa with Scarf is so stupid D: I think you could say it is a improved Scarf Moxie Heracross for OU
(Seriously, can we suspect Pheromosa once Bank is out?)

Bluntly I don't think she would even last that long, she is more or less ban materials anyways.

 

[BeardyBennett]

Adamant Pheromosa with Scarf is so stupid D: I think you could say it is a improved Scarf Moxie Heracross for OU
(Seriously, can we suspect Pheromosa once Bank is out?)

Why is there all this talk of doing things "once bank is out"? I mean, can't we already mess around with a post-bank meta given that there is the Gen 7 Pokebank OU meta on Showdown? I assumed that's what everyone has been using since it won't let you use unreleased Megas, but will let you use everything else that will be available on the 3DS itself post-bank. Now, if we're talking post-Mega Stones, then this is a different story. However, if we are waiting for just post-bank then that seems off to me. Post-bank can be played right now. Or maybe I'm just confused, as tends to happen.

 

[pubby]

Dont post something unless you understand what I said. I never mentioned CB weavile as "the perfect counter". So I'm not gonna even answe you because you barely understand what I said and twisted it. Managable means having a number of checks and ways to deal with something within reasonable boundaries of a tier.

You're damn right I didn't understand what you said; that's why I asked you to clarify and explain what you meant by "Lele 100% manageable without much effort".

If you're having a hard time dealing with it, I suggest you find someone moderately good at ORAS OU and ask them to teach u how to play in metagame that had Mega Gardevoir.

M. Gardevoir is base 100 speed and isn't immune to priority.

 

[Banryu]

So. Kind of a random / weirdly specific question, but is Cloyster still any good in SuMo meta? I'd imagine that Focus Smash + Psychic Terrain to negate priority would be pretty strong. I haven't seen it mentioned a single time in all the lurking I've done over the past week though, haha.

Come to think, I don't think I've seen mention of Hippowdon or Tyranitar (or Gigalith I guess??) at all either. Is Sand finally dead in this meta or what?

 

[Cheapoman]

I played earlier on the ladder and Toxapex is good as advertised (Been lurking and just listening/watching matches). Tapu Lele is made me nervous every tme it came in. Psychic is stupid strong and a good steel type is needed as well as a fast poke to scare it out/revenge kill if possible.

 

[onlyheretocomplain]

So. Kind of a random / weirdly specific question, but is Cloyster still any good in SuMo meta? I'd imagine that Focus Smash + Psychic Terrain to negate priority would be pretty strong. I haven't seen it mentioned a single time in all the lurking I've done over the past week though, haha.

Come to think, I don't think I've seen mention of Hippowdon or Tyranitar (or Gigalith I guess??) at all either. Is Sand finally dead in this meta or what?

Cloyster wasn't that great even in Gen 6. We haven't had an influx of Ice-weak mons this time around, and it got nothing besides Smart Strike. It might do well in the lower tiers; with all the new Snow Warning users, it can use hail to get that last bit of HP off its opponents.

EDIT: Oh, and Toxapex and Celesteela (and Pyukumuku!) check it.

Sand could be struggling simply because rain is back in style. It doesn't help that Gigalith is mostly a worse Tyranitar.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

When we get the jingle keys back it might be a decent lead

252+ Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 242-285 (76.1 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 37-44 (11.6 - 13.8%)

It could run sub, spikes, t-wave, play rough and scout for if it's a choice item of life orb.

But adman, choice band high jump kick does cleanly knock it out.

 

[onlyheretocomplain]

Wouldn't Protect be better than Sub if you're just looking for a Pheromosa check?