Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

[BeardyBennett]

I have been finding Slowbro surprisingly fun to use right now. Running it on a team with Exca and Ttar. This is my current set:

Slowbro @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball

Why AV? Well we often put AV's on Tangrowth or Slowking, so the same theory applies. I like augmenting Slowbro's bulk while also getting to put max investment into its special attack. It seems like a lot of people are being caught off-guard by Slowbro, which makes sense as its not exactly the standard. However, that's what I mostly do, throw out non-standard stuff and see what happens. Scald of course is great for making that Dark-type Pursuit-trapper suddenly not so scary, Psychic easily 2HKO's any Toxapex I have encountered (I have never calced but I'd guess that to be true of even max Sp.Def.) while of course guarding my Exca and Ttar from Fighting types, Ice Beam puts some nice damage on Dragon and Grass types, and Shadow Ball for if they think they're safe to bring in their own Psychic types. Plus, Ghost is such a great move type for if you're not quite sure what they might switch in.

All this being said, Slwobro of course still pales in comparison to and would likely fall to Lele, Phero, Genesect, etc. However, again, I'm looking at non-standard things for fun and am trying out teams for whatever the meta/banlist will end up looking like. Bottom-line, Slowbro is surprisingly fun right now. It fits well on a Sand team to guard Exca and Ttar, and it drops pesky Fighting types and Toxapex's.

 

[Twilightphoenix10]

I can see it having trouble with Lele because of her high hp and def stats as well as her spatk stat and speed. even without shadow ball moonblast can likely destroy slowbro with 1-3 hits depending on evs and crits. If slowbro does survive the first hit from Lele and sand and rocks are up then you could probably taker her down or at least bring her into killing range depending on how much damage she has already taken.

 

[oreofestar]

I can see it having trouble with Lele because of her high hp and def stats as well as her spatk stat and speed. even without shadow ball moonblast can likely destroy slowbro with 1-3 hits depending on evs and crits. If slowbro does survive the first hit from Lele and sand and rocks are up then you could probably taker her down or at least bring her into killing range depending on how much damage she has already taken.

high HP and Def? 70/75 isnt all that high

 

[JSND]

Lol I'm so tempted to make a flygon team.

The dragon dance actually helps a lot, as he needs everything he can get to squeeze all the speed and power he can out of those bitty 100 stats. Give him a life orb and can almost do something after magnezone does some work.

The interesting thing is that flygon is probably one of the better dragon dancers now, as we have learned from salamence: its all about that non-dragon stab. Sure, dragonite might be able to get two dances but dragon is a horrid attacking type now and his best flying move is special. Flygon on the other hand has access to edge quake, with stab on the quake. The main thing holding him back is not having 120 attack. :(

There is this new pokemon called Balanced Thousand Arrows Zygarde. And thats the real reason DD Flygon isn't all that great in this gen

Also the part about non-dragon STAB is actually so true. Honestly Dragon have always been pretty terrible. It just so happen to be the only typing who have 120 BP on both sides, godlike movepool, and 120+ Attacking stats on every single one of their mon.

 

[EonX]

So I don't care to go through 37 pages worth of posts, but I've been messing around with SpDef Excadrill, and I honestly just love it right now.

Excadrill (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 224 HP / 252 SpD / 32 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Iron Head / Rock Slide
- Rapid Spin / Rock Slide

Still acts as a pretty reliable check to the powerful Electrics in the tier right now like Alolan Marowak does. The difference lies in their typings. While Alolan Marowak is a nice check to Pheromosa, Excadrill provides a check to Tapu Lele (if no Focus Blast) while also giving hazard control and more raw Attack with Leftovers. Perhaps the biggest thing is the lack of a Stealth Rock weakness, thus allowing it to play much more recklessly against the likes of Tapu Koko, Xurkitree, among others. It tends to fit on more teams too thanks to its defensive typing and lack of reliance on hazard control to function at optimal capacity. Obviously, Alolan Marowak still has some good perks over Drill; being able to spread burns, check Genesect and Pheromosa due to its typing, and being able to throw out Knock Off. Overall, I feel Excadrill's merits as an Electric check are better due to it being able to compress more roles (Rock setter, spinner, Electric check, Psychic check) than Alolan Marowak can (although both are solid obviously) Rock Slide can be run over either Iron Head or Rapid Spin if you don't need the coverage or support respectively. The Speed EVs is to outspeed defensive Landorus-T. The spread can probably be optimized a little bit more, but I haven't really gotten that far with it yet.

 

[Upswing]

I'm not exactly a great player at all to begin with, but I tried out Flygon and found it to be a bit lacking as a DDance sweeper. Base 100 attack and speed just don't really do enough at +1. Some scarfers are base 100 or just higher, and there are still plenty of things that can take +1 attacks fairly well. Disappointing that everyone's beloved Flygon isn't all that great still. Garchomp and Zygarde are still much better Dragon-Ground options.

Would DD Flygon be viable in UU?

 

[Halcyon.]

Would DD Flygon be viable in UU?

We won't know until UU is released in a few months.

 

[BeardyBennett]

Would DD Flygon be viable in UU?

UU seems about right for DDance Flygon. It just doesn't seem to have enough power to hang in OU with the other two Dragon-Grounds. However, it may end up as the only mon of that type in UU (Zygarde-10% could end up there as well though), and it is a very desirable offensive typing.

 

[Chaoswalker]

Flygon's placement depends largely on where Zygarde 10% ends up and on the popularity of Landorus-T. If Zygarde follows him down to UU, he will likely struggle to out perform it with dragon dance, or to make any use of the defog set and end up stuck between RU and UU. If Lando-T ends up on every team like last gen though, you will find that he can continue dragon dancing in its face thanks to levitate and rock resist. That wouldn't be a true OU position, but rather a cute niche.

 

[DDRMaster]

Z-Fly Landorus has become pretty popular, so that would be able to take out Flygon easily. Even if you burn its Z move, it could still use Fly on you. Most things that could take Fly wouldn't like taking an Earthquake, so it wouldn't be the easiest thing to punish, either.

 

[Maestro Arena]

I dunno if it has been talked previously, but what do you think about Torkoal?

I've been testing a sun team running Torkoal and it actually looks decent. It has solid defenses enough to resist the most used Pokemon by far in the metagame (aka Landorus-T), is slow but that allows you to win weather wars, and can provide rocks control in both Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin.

 

[FlockOfFlames]

There's a team here that seems to have good success with it. Definitely an interesting mon.

 

[The Pseudo Legendary]

I have been using a large amount of Latios since SUMO have come out, and I have run it with just about every set that exists for it. However, one set I just cannot seem to grasp if it is good or not is the Choice Scarf set:
Latios @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
Psyshock
Draco Meteor
Defog
Surf

The reason I chose this set in the first place is because I was having a team that was very weak to Pheromosa and was HO. Therefore I wanted something that fit the HO style, but could also outspeed and kill Pheromosa. This set seems pretty good, but I do not know how well it compares to the Choice Specs and Life Orb sets. The main thing I see that this set has is the ability to outspeed otherwise faster things and kill them, but is that worth it? One horrible flaw with this set that I have found is that going for Defog really is a pain because you havet o switch in to use Defog, and then switch out the turn after you use it or sacrifice your Latios. The set also does not hit nearly as hard as the Life Orb or Choice Spec variant. Can someone explain to me if this is good or not? Also, should I be running Trick over Surf?

 

[FlockOfFlames]

It was good to net surprise kill on supposed fast frail checks, like Weavile. But with the amount of fairies (tapus) Dark and Steel types running around this time, I'm not too fond of locking myself into Draco, Psyshock or even Defog for that matter. My first impression as a 6G Latios user is that Draco Meteor didn't have as much switchins as it has now so I feel that LO is the way to go for now. To handle Pheromosa, I think you'll be better with another scarfer and some priority moves cause they can't have psychic terrain + phero everytime, especially since Tapu Lele likes to stick around spamming psychics.

 

[Boltaway]

I have been using a large amount of Latios since SUMO have come out, and I have run it with just about every set that exists for it. However, one set I just cannot seem to grasp if it is good or not is the Choice Scarf set:
Latios @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
Psyshock
Draco Meteor
Defog
Surf

The reason I chose this set in the first place is because I was having a team that was very weak to Pheromosa and was HO. Therefore I wanted something that fit the HO style, but could also outspeed and kill Pheromosa. This set seems pretty good, but I do not know how well it compares to the Choice Specs and Life Orb sets. The main thing I see that this set has is the ability to outspeed otherwise faster things and kill them, but is that worth it? One horrible flaw with this set that I have found is that going for Defog really is a pain because you havet o switch in to use Defog, and then switch out the turn after you use it or sacrifice your Latios. The set also does not hit nearly as hard as the Life Orb or Choice Spec variant. Can someone explain to me if this is good or not? Also, should I be running Trick over Surf?

Generally, Scarf Latios serves as a way to check its own checks. Weavile, meme Ice Beam for M-Altaria, things like that. Like FlockOfFlames said, being locked into Draco Meteor is even more risky than it was last-gen, and it opens up Latios to being revenge-killed with ease when it's at -2. The best Scarf set for Latios usually consists of D-Pulse / Psyshock / Trick / Defog and even that I think is terrible in this meta just given the abundance of the Tapus, especially Tapu Fini's Misty Surge, which reduces the power of your dragon moves by half.

As for Latios set, here's a terrible meme dream fresh of the grill, shamelessly stolen from Palkia Ubers

Latios @ Psychium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Block
- Psyshock
- Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse
- HP Fire / Shadow Ball / Thunderbolt

PS: Z-Heal Block raises your special attack by +2.

It's plays a lot like a lure, designed to lure in specific Tapus and hopefully OHKO them with Stealth Rock (depending on the set). But it's also really cool in that Psychium-Z means you can either Shattered Psyche if you prefer to just nuke whatever's coming in, whereas Z-Heal Block sets you have the secondary effect of blocking healing moves, which can help a lot versus stall teams. Obviously, you should scout first for Scarfed Tapu Lele because that thing will wipe you out with a single Moonblast. You do, however, live Tapu Fini's Moonblast and the 4 HP EVs allow you to live Timid LO Tapu Koko's Dazzling Gleam 100% of the time from full. Psyshock OHKOs standard Koko, and the last slot is dependent on what Pokemon you prefer to take out. You could probably also benefit from Dragon Pulse > Draco Meteor so you're +2 doesn't go to waste. The main advantage of this over CM LO, is that the power is more immediate, and you get OHKO'd by Modest Specs Lele at +1 SDef anyway.

Calcs:
+2 252 SpA Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 274-324 (97.5 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Latios Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tapu Fini: 236-278 (68.6 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Latios Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 314-370 (91.2 - 107.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Latios Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 310-366 (110.3 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 300-354 (106.7 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[DiscoDucky]

Flygon's placement depends largely on where Zygarde 10% ends up and on the popularity of Landorus-T. If Zygarde follows him down to UU, he will likely struggle to out perform it with dragon dance, or to make any use of the defog set and end up stuck between RU and UU. If Lando-T ends up on every team like last gen though, you will find that he can continue dragon dancing in its face thanks to levitate and rock resist. That wouldn't be a true OU position, but rather a cute niche.

Not necessarily so. Although Z10 seems like the best option for a straight-up Dragon Dance set, Flygon has the benefit of potentially running a Utility DD set. In Gen VI RU, Flygon functioned very well as a utility pivot for Hazard removal. Good typing and two relevant immunities allow him to function as a Utility Pokemon for the early and mid game, then DD sweep in the late game.

Flygon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake / Dragon Claw

The EVs are flexible to fit whatever defensive benchmark you want Flygon to hit, but the base 100 Speed tier really does help it as a Dragon Dancer.

 

[PimpParasect]

Not necessarily so. Although Z10 seems like the best option for a straight-up Dragon Dance set, Flygon has the benefit of potentially running a Utility DD set. In Gen VI RU, Flygon functioned very well as a utility pivot for Hazard removal. Good typing and two relevant immunities allow him to function as a Utility Pokemon for the early and mid game, then DD sweep in the late game.

Flygon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake / Dragon Claw

The EVs are flexible to fit whatever defensive benchmark you want Flygon to hit, but the base 100 Speed tier really does help it as a Dragon Dancer.

I don't see why I'd run flygon for a DD user, or a defogger. The only niche DD defog flygon has over DD defog salamance is stealth rock resist, but even then, salamence has more bulk and better typing for more switch in opportunities and more sets for unpredictability.

In UU as a defogger: Mence > Flygon
In UU as a sweeper: Haxorus > Flygon

I'd be shocked if it moved from where its at now, might be BL2 later on if DD tips it too much for RU, but I see no particular niche for it besides walling nonHP ice raikou. There's nothing it switches into or sets up on without fearing a burn, coverage move, or being too frail to actually stay in. He's just so mediocre even with DD.

For an idea on just how "meh" this thing is:

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Flygon Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 315-374 (75 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Flygon: 258-306 (85.7 - 101.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock / guaranteed after rough skin + rocky helmet

An unboosted tank with the same typing can do more than it.

 

[Twilightphoenix10]

high HP and Def? 70/75 isnt all that high

Woops that was supposed to be SpDef. In any case Lele can tank hits from AV Slowbro without much of a problem, as long as it hasn't taken too much previous damage and still hit back harder and faster.

 

[PK Gaming]

So I don't care to go through 37 pages worth of posts, but I've been messing around with SpDef Excadrill, and I honestly just love it right now.

Excadrill (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 224 HP / 252 SpD / 32 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Iron Head / Rock Slide
- Rapid Spin / Rock Slide

Still acts as a pretty reliable check to the powerful Electrics in the tier right now like Alolan Marowak does. The difference lies in their typings. While Alolan Marowak is a nice check to Pheromosa, Excadrill provides a check to Tapu Lele (if no Focus Blast) while also giving hazard control and more raw Attack with Leftovers. Perhaps the biggest thing is the lack of a Stealth Rock weakness, thus allowing it to play much more recklessly against the likes of Tapu Koko, Xurkitree, among others. It tends to fit on more teams too thanks to its defensive typing and lack of reliance on hazard control to function at optimal capacity. Obviously, Alolan Marowak still has some good perks over Drill; being able to spread burns, check Genesect and Pheromosa due to its typing, and being able to throw out Knock Off. Overall, I feel Excadrill's merits as an Electric check are better due to it being able to compress more roles (Rock setter, spinner, Electric check, Psychic check) than Alolan Marowak can (although both are solid obviously) Rock Slide can be run over either Iron Head or Rapid Spin if you don't need the coverage or support respectively. The Speed EVs is to outspeed defensive Landorus-T. The spread can probably be optimized a little bit more, but I haven't really gotten that far with it yet.

Yeah SpD Excadrill is crazy good right now. It's so goddamn splashable, I never leave home without it.

 

[Banryu]

Not necessarily so. Although Z10 seems like the best option for a straight-up Dragon Dance set, Flygon has the benefit of potentially running a Utility DD set. In Gen VI RU, Flygon functioned very well as a utility pivot for Hazard removal. Good typing and two relevant immunities allow him to function as a Utility Pokemon for the early and mid game, then DD sweep in the late game.

I don't see why I'd run flygon for a DD user, or a defogger. The only niche DD defog flygon has over DD defog salamance is stealth rock resist, but even then, salamence has more bulk and better typing for more switch in opportunities and more sets for unpredictability.

In UU as a defogger: Mence > Flygon
In UU as a sweeper: Haxorus > Flygon

I'd be shocked if it moved from where its at now, might be BL2 later on if DD tips it too much for RU, but I see no particular niche for it besides walling nonHP ice raikou. There's nothing it switches into or sets up on without fearing a burn, coverage move, or being too frail to actually stay in. He's just so mediocre even with DD.

I think it's worth noting also that Flygon still has U-turn over mence, which combined with the fact that it's not weak to rocks (and therefore doesn't need to take a turn to Roost off chip damage... hopefully) lets it maintain more momentum after coming in to Defog.

I also considered using Flygon for a bizarre utility set of like Defog + U-Turn + Roost/Tailwind/Toxic, since he's immune to spikes/Tspikes and resists Stealth Rock, but there are probably better mons for that already.

Seems more practical than trying to DD with it...? I guess if you want it to do both Mence + Haxorus' job with Flygon's immunities then that's an option, but I'm pretty skeptical of its capabilities, sad to say.

IDK, does anyone else do Defog/Tailwind/U-turn better than Flygon as far as hazard resistance and immunities goes?

 

[Chaoswalker]

I don't see why I'd run flygon for a DD user, or a defogger. The only niche DD defog flygon has over DD defog salamance is stealth rock resist, but even then, salamence has more bulk and better typing for more switch in opportunities and more sets for unpredictability.

In UU as a defogger: Mence > Flygon
In UU as a sweeper: Haxorus > Flygon

I'd be shocked if it moved from where its at now, might be BL2 later on if DD tips it too much for RU, but I see no particular niche for it besides walling nonHP ice raikou. There's nothing it switches into or sets up on without fearing a burn, coverage move, or being too frail to actually stay in. He's just so mediocre even with DD.

For an idea on just how "meh" this thing is:

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Flygon Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 315-374 (75 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Flygon: 258-306 (85.7 - 101.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock / guaranteed after rough skin + rocky helmet

An unboosted tank with the same typing can do more than it.

The difference between flygon and salamence is earthquake. Flygon may not even run dragon claw, and simply run edgequake with bonus coverage or defog. Salamence on the other hand MUST use dragon claw, unless it gains bravebird any time soon. Unless OU sucks up all the faries, that will be a big set back.

Also, you know Garchomp didn't actually "do more damage", right? That's a calc of a def invested tank swinging back at a frail life orb sweeper with a stab super effective attack. It didn't have to do much damage at all. I'm sure you could make similar calc for weavile attacking a tank. Your point is kind of right, but the scenario is silly.

 

[JSND]

I think it's worth noting also that Flygon still has U-turn over mence, which combined with the fact that it's not weak to rocks (and therefore doesn't need to take a turn to Roost off chip damage... hopefully) lets it maintain more momentum after coming in to Defog.
Seems more practical than trying to DD with it...? I guess if you want it to do both Mence + Haxorus' job with Flygon's immunities then that's an option, but I'm pretty skeptical of its capabilities, sad to say.

IDK, does anyone else do Defog/Tailwind/U-turn better than Flygon as far as hazard resistance and immunities goes?

Heres the problem with Flygon who tried utility

Landorus Therian


Landorus vs Flygon is a Garchomp vs Swampert situation where its 2 pokemon who is actually the exact same, the only problem is the former is better in every way

 

[guustavooo]

Yeah SpD Excadrill is crazy good right now. It's so goddamn splashable, I never leave home without it.

Care to elaborate?

 

[drakylon]

Heres the problem with Flygon who tried utility

Landorus Therian


Landorus vs Flygon is a Garchomp vs Swampert situation where its 2 pokemon who is actually the exact same, the only problem is the former is better in every way

Landorus-Therian and utility Flygon are very different, though. Flygon is resistant to Stealth Rock while Landorus-Therian is neutral, and has reliable recovery unlike Lando-T. Furthermore, Flygon's typing allows it resist a few types that Lando-T does not, including Fire and the aforementioned Rock, as well as being neutral towards Water, in exchange for not resisting Fighting and Bug and being weak to Dragon and Fairy. In addition, Flygon has access to Defog and Tailwind, which allow it to give different kinds of utility to a team than Lando-T provides (SR, Intimidate), as well as having a fairly strong nuke in Draco Meteor if needed.

I don't think you can compare Landorus-Therian and Flygon because they do different things on a team. Garchomp and Swampert are comparable because they do basically the same thing: sponge hits and hit back while being able to set Stealth Rock.

 

[PK Gaming]

Care to elaborate?

Just read EonX's post, he goes over why it's so good