Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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INSANE CARZY GUY said:
You can't knock off crystals or effect their held item in any fashion, cause then Z-switcheroo would be Godly +2 speed and stealing an item

Wevile will stick around till there's a better physical ice type just like with gengar till there's a better special ghost.
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There's obviously quite a bit that would go into what makes a better Physical Ice type: stats, movepool, secondary typing, ability, the state of the meta, etc. Weavile's already decent to good in 2 of those categories, the third is a mixed bag offensively (Weavile barely cares about defensive effect outside maybe an immunity), and the 4th is the only one where he doesn't really have anything of note. Several mons doing well in OU have a combination of traits going for them, so it's hard to make a definitively "better" Physical Ice type without trying to from square one make "Weavile but better" for the role.

Also, while you can't Knock Z-Crystals off, identifying the Z-Crystal by virtue of the item not being Knocked off makes for good information: if Heatran is switched in to check Weavile, while it won't take much from BP 65 Knock Off, knowing it's running Bloom Doom warns against using the expected bulky Water as an answer, so Z-Crystal lures/users have to still be wary of Knock Off since they really need the surprise factor to pull it off compared to something like Salamence, which will be apparent in its Z-Crystal usage and is simply using it to nuke a would-be check and sweep. Knock Off may not necessarily be a crippling blow in numbers, but picking out Z-Crystals on multi-set mons provides information, something that can still be important to counterplay, much like Expert Belt/Choice set bluffs.
 
The problem with throwing a knock off here and there is that for some of the more prominent Z-Crystal users ala DD Flyinium Z Lando T or Z-Fly Mence, almost never would they stay in against Weavile. This could be alleviated with Pursuit on Weavile, but that mean's you'd have to take off either an Ice STAB or Poison Jab, something which I myself would not do.

And then against Magearna, if it free switches on a Poison Jab or something why would you knock off it when it has a Fleur Cannon aimed directly at you?

I do see the benefits when it comes to Obvious Doom Heatran, the fact that Knock Off really only gives you the knowledge of one super prominent Z-move hurts the viability of it.
 
ClockworkLad said:
The problem with throwing a knock off here and there is that for some of the more prominent Z-Crystal users ala DD Flyinium Z Lando T or Z-Fly Mence, almost never would they stay in against Weavile. This could be alleviated with Pursuit on Weavile, but that mean's you'd have to take off either an Ice STAB or Poison Jab, something which I myself would not do.

And then against Magearna, if it free switches on a Poison Jab or something why would you knock off it when it has a Fleur Cannon aimed directly at you?

I do see the benefits when it comes to Obvious Doom Heatran, the fact that Knock Off really only gives you the knowledge of one super prominent Z-move hurts the viability of it.
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My point was the information is provided by them switching into Knock Off. If they're on the field already Weavile should not Knock them off, but that is information gained if they switch into Knock Off, which would be a safe move damage wise. If Magearna gets in, Weavile does have to switch out, but Knock Off gives away info even as a resisted switch in since it loses the element of surprise, whether from loss of the item, or lack thereof revealing the Z-Crystal. I don't think anyone would argue against the statement that Magearna is a very versatile AND potent Pokemon in the metagame, so being able to figure out its set for the team keeps value in Knock Off even if something is countered by it 1v1.

I didn't cite Lando-T or Mence for that niche bit because Weavile smashes them regardless. The only Lando set that doesn't automatically lose 1v1 is Choice Scarf, and that's assuming it entered in pristine health, because Ice Shard KO's after 2 rounds of rock damage, not to mention SR + any scratch damage (even resisted Poison Jab coverage). Mence just gets chunked by Ice Shard without Intimidate (obviously the case for Z-Fly Moxie), no rocks required, so Weavile can always revenge it even if it has a DD Boost as well (not sure if that's a thing on the set right now). I listed the other two because they're Z-Crystal users that check Weavile and have a variety of sets with Z-Crystal being one of them, ergo they are logical things that would switch into Weavile, who can spam Knock Off for a safe crippling option against most of its offensive checks.

I'm going with the previously expressed sentiment that Weavile's best set is Knock Off/Icicle Crash/Ice Shard/Poison Jab.
 
Excuse me if this incorrect formatting but I would like to propose Scolipede moving from B+ to A-

I believe that Scolipede has been completely slept on. Scolipede with 1 SD can ohko each tapu with little effort.
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 342-404 (99.4 - 117.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Koko: 420-494 (122 - 143.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Lele: 456-536 (132.5 - 155.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Bulu: 684-808 (198.8 - 234.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With this set, Scolipede can, with one protect, outspeed scarf Lele. Which alone is amazing
Scolipede @ Black Sludge
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 24 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Poison Jab
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake

You might think, what can scoli do to things other than the tapus? Well, Scolipede can deal extremely well with M-Metagross:
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 280-330 (93 - 109.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This damage is HUGE, Scolipede can allow for other sweepers, like Tapu Lele, to come in safely and sweep.

With M-Metagross being so common, I think this is a great counter to most steel types So, here are some more calcs.
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Heatran: 608-716 (157.5 - 185.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 354-418 (97.2 - 114.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scizor-Mega: 148-175 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
HOWEVER,
Scolipede has a hard time dealing with steel flyings, namely Celesteela and Skarm.
Also scoli has a hard time with scizor, even though you can recovery stall with protect since BP does 58% at most.
And on paper this seems good, but a weakness to rocks and Lando running around, scoli can find it hard to set up.
Also, SD can be hard to set up with Scoli since it is quite frail.

For these reasons, I believe Scoli should be A-

As a final note, you might say that scoli is very predictable, but the hydro vortex set can lure in lando, if need be.
Set example:
Scolipede @ Waterium Z
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Tail
- Megahorn
- Poison Jab

Lando calc: +1 252+ Atk Scolipede Hydro Vortex vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Landorus-Therian: 406-478 (106.5 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
upload_2017-1-19_15-19-2.png
Primarina C- --> C+
I know people are supposed to be ignoring the bottom tiers but its plain offensive that Primarina is ranked so low. Sure, fini is far better, but the sheer power of specs and utility of fairy / water means Primarina is still good as shit. Primarina is guaranteed to get a kill most games, it beats most pokemon 1 on 1, esp. with coverage, e.g. psychic fucks up amoong and mvenu, and at the same time it loses less momentum for offensive teams compared to fini whilst still providing a solid check to gren. Lastly, Primarina is a really good team member for ash gren as the two are able to destroy the others counters. Primarina, albeit not amazing, certainly has enough going for it to be ranked alongside the likes of nidoking and minior as opposed to pokemon like bewear and mega absol.
 
I do think Weeive is good vs most things in the meta, then it runs into scizor, pheromosa, celesteela, and Kartana, not to mention fire types. Which most people use, making it lower in the ranks, but doesnt mean Weeive is useless.
 
May I inquire as to why Alolan Marowak is in OU? It still has 5 weaknesses, and it's stats are pretty good but nothing great. Is it moves, fairy resistance, or something I'm totally missing?
 
1st, remember that OU is just based on usage. Something stupid but popular would still be OU.
2nd, check the dedicated thread. Good typing, electric immunity, Thick club...
 
hecatomb said:
I do think Weeive is good vs most things in the meta, then it runs into scizor, pheromosa, celesteela, and Kartana, not to mention fire types. Which most people use, making it lower in the ranks, but doesnt mean Weeive is useless.
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You do realise what you listed arent even counters, except for Zor? Pheromosa dies to Ice Shard after prior damage, Celesteela cannot afford to take a Knock Off and lose It's Leftovers, Kartana still takes decent damage from Icicle, and fire types except the ones holding a Z cristal cannot take a LO Knock Off either. From what you listed only Mega Zor counters Weavile, as it can manually switch in without any fear, which os not the case of the other stuff you mention, bar Z-Cristal, Ice-Resistant Fire types.
 
jacksoras said:
View attachment 76861Primarina C- --> C+
I know people are supposed to be ignoring the bottom tiers but its plain offensive that Primarina is ranked so low. Sure, fini is far better, but the sheer power of specs and utility of fairy / water means Primarina is still good as shit. Primarina is guaranteed to get a kill most games, it beats most pokemon 1 on 1, esp. with coverage, e.g. psychic fucks up amoong and mvenu, and at the same time it loses less momentum for offensive teams compared to fini whilst still providing a solid check to gren. Lastly, Primarina is a really good team member for ash gren as the two are able to destroy the others counters. Primarina, albeit not amazing, certainly has enough going for it to be ranked alongside the likes of nidoking and minior as opposed to pokemon like bewear and mega absol.
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I agree with this post, her current C- ranking makes no sense, but can we please stop comparing Primarina to Fini, they don't do remotely the same thing. Compare Primarina to Lele if anything.
 
samurott14rogers said:
May I inquire as to why Alolan Marowak is in OU? It still has 5 weaknesses, and it's stats are pretty good but nothing great. Is it moves, fairy resistance, or something I'm totally missing?
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It's very anti-meta. It's 7 resistances (fire, grass, ice, poison, bug, steel and fairy) and 3 inmunities (normal, fighting and electric) helps it swich against a lot of common stuff like Pheromosa, Koko, Charizard-Y, ect. It also has a signature item which doubles it's attack (Thick Club), effectively giving it a whooping 392 atack with a neutral nature and zero investment whatsoever. Offensive wise it has stuff like Flare Blitz/Fire Punch, Shadow Bone & Bonemerang/EQ, all of which can easily kill something frail on the switch. It also has Stealth Rock, Will o' Wisp and Knock off support wise, so it can do a lot for a team.

Also agree with jacksoras that Primarina needs to rise a rank or two. Water/Fairy it's a pretty neat typing with nice coverage and one extra resistance and inmunity (dark and dragon), giving it some chances for switches (mostly on Specs Greninja, though it can also work against Lati@s, Keldeo and others). Prima's movepool gives it quite a lot to work with; it has Psychic for M-Venusaur and Amoongus, HP Fire for Ferrothorn and Scizor, Energy Ball for bulky waters, etc. For water STABS it can use either Sparkling Aria, which bypasses substitutes while also healing burns, or Hydro Pump. Torrent surprisingly works well with both of them, giving it an insane boost when it's low on HP, effectively letting it hit stuff really hard before dying (which happens a lot).

How effective Prima is in the long run depends of the type of matchups. It works pretty well in a fire/grass/water core (stuff like Amoongus, Venusaur, Heatran and A-Marowak are nice partners) and steels, and can do a lot against HO that lack Koko and TR teams (the latter which are starting to be a thing again), but it struggles a lot against bulky offense, specially when the special walls are still healthy.

It IS by no means the go-to-pokemon for wallbreaking shenanigans, though. Base 60 speed can be pretty underwhelming, strong physical STABs are potentially dangerous, there's quite a lot of special walls running around (which is due to Lele's popularity) AND it faces a lot of competition from Lele (worse bulk, but it's faster and has a better ability), Azumarril (better physical bulk and can use Belly Drum), and Volcanion (Slightly faster and resist Fairy, but has bad special bulk) for that slot.

Some random calcs:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 324-384 (92 - 109%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Psychic vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 340-402 (78.8 - 93.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Scizor-Mega: 352-416 (102.6 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Sparkling Aria vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 306-360 (98.3 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Toxapex: 234-276 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Psychic vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Venusaur: 274-324 (75.4 - 89.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (watch out for this one)

One last thing:
Daemul said:
(...) can we please stop comparing Primarina to Fini, they don't do remotely the same thing. Compare Primarina to Lele if anything.
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EDIT: Changed and added some extra info here and there.

EDIT2: Here's a replay of me playing badly and somehow Metagross and Primarina saving the day. Would've done more if it had Hydro Pump instead, but eh.
(In hindsight that probably wasn't the best replay)

EDIT3: Another one. Mostly Primarina forcing switches and walling Specs Greninja like it was no thing.
 
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Kstreak said:
Excuse me if this incorrect formatting but I would like to propose Scolipede moving from B+ to A-

I believe that Scolipede has been completely slept on. Scolipede with 1 SD can ohko each tapu with little effort.
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 342-404 (99.4 - 117.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Koko: 420-494 (122 - 143.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Lele: 456-536 (132.5 - 155.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Bulu: 684-808 (198.8 - 234.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With this set, Scolipede can, with one protect, outspeed scarf Lele. Which alone is amazing
Scolipede @ Black Sludge
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 24 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Poison Jab
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake

You might think, what can scoli do to things other than the tapus? Well, Scolipede can deal extremely well with M-Metagross:
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 280-330 (93 - 109.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This damage is HUGE, Scolipede can allow for other sweepers, like Tapu Lele, to come in safely and sweep.

With M-Metagross being so common, I think this is a great counter to most steel types So, here are some more calcs.
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Heatran: 608-716 (157.5 - 185.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 354-418 (97.2 - 114.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scizor-Mega: 148-175 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
HOWEVER,
Scolipede has a hard time dealing with steel flyings, namely Celesteela and Skarm.
Also scoli has a hard time with scizor, even though you can recovery stall with protect since BP does 58% at most.
And on paper this seems good, but a weakness to rocks and Lando running around, scoli can find it hard to set up.
Also, SD can be hard to set up with Scoli since it is quite frail.

For these reasons, I believe Scoli should be A-

As a final note, you might say that scoli is very predictable, but the hydro vortex set can lure in lando, if need be.
Set example:
Scolipede @ Waterium Z
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Tail
- Megahorn
- Poison Jab
Lando calc: +1 252+ Atk Scolipede Hydro Vortex vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Landorus-Therian: 406-478 (106.5 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Click to expand...
IMO, Scolipede is pretty fine in B+. Sure he can beat a lot of stuff, has decent coverage and that Z-Lure is really cool, however due to his subpar bulk and bad defensive typing, Scoli has too much issues setting up in this Meta, and If it doesnt OHKO the current ennemy, the later can easily cripple and/or put it in range of kill with priority, which Scoli doesnt take well as it doesnt resist any relevant priority move. Most of the time you really, really need to force a switch, because even with the Z-Lure set, you are still predictable, and the opponent can play around you either simply attacking and trying to set up à SD. Scoli is a good sweeper, but It's really not close to what the A tier has in terms of threat level.
 
Gotham-Mimiqui said:
IMO, Scolipede is pretty fine in B+. Sure he can beat a lot of stuff, has decent coverage and that Z-Lure is really cool, however due to his subpar bulk and bad defensive typing, Scoli has too much issues setting up in this Meta, and If it doesnt OHKO the current ennemy, the later can easily cripple and/or put it in range of kill with priority, which Scoli doesnt take well as it doesnt resist any relevant priority move. Most of the time you really, really need to force a switch, because even with the Z-Lure set, you are still predictable, and the opponent can play around you either simply attacking and trying to set up à SD. Scoli is a good sweeper, but It's really not close to what the A tier has in terms of threat level.
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I know that Scoli has no bulk but it can take most hits to set up. Mostly just one though.
Here are the calcs
M-Metagross:
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 229-270 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Lando:
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 218-258 (81.6 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 195-231 (73 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Base 60 hp and 89 def is no laughing matter. Not the best, but not completely trash.
Scolipede has higher reward than risk, which is great for even a suicide lead.

Scolipede also can switch into most neutral hits:
252 SpA Tapu Fini Surf vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 160-190 (59.9 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 83-98 (31 - 36.7%) -- 47.9% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
252 SpA Greninja-Ash Scald vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 201-237 (75.2 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 105-124 (39.3 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Another thing that we forget is the rise in popularity of hyper offense and the hype of tapu lele and other fairy types. Scolipede thrives in a metagame that has lots of fairies, grass, and generally frail sweepers like greninja. It about the current metagame, not the stats.
 
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One thing I feel people really need to keep in mind before posting is how the metagame changes affect the Pokemon in question. Your arguments and posting quality will substantially increase if you actually demonstrate how shifts in the metagame positively or negatively affects the Pokemon you are nomination. Showing a wall of calcs and talking about good sets is a waste of time unless you actually demonstrate how the metagame has improved/hurt the mon you're arguing, unless there is a less-common set that people have been sleeping on. Everyone (or most people) know the common sets of a Pokemon, so don't just mention how the mon is "fast and strong and has good coverage." We know this. No one will buy your argument for Weavile dropping by listing a bunch of Weavile checks. We all know that it has these checks. Actually show us how the usage of these checks in notable formats (high ladder/tours) and/or team structures that benefits or harms Weavile's viability.

Support your post with good replays, cores using the mon you are nomming (if you want something to rise), and some good teams using the Pokemon in question. You really want to avoid theory-monning, because a lot of things are good in theory but fall flat in practice. Overall, this VR thread has been painful to read, and a large part of that is due to a lack of a detailed posting guide, and also because some users are posting one-liners shutting down posts without actually helping to educate the user on why their post was bad.

Here is an example of what I mean. It doesn't reflect the current meta or my thoughts on the mon used, and only serves to demonstrate the components of good and bad posts.


Bad nomination:

I nominate Pheromosa to A+ because its coverage is so good with ice beam hitting lando which is used a lot and poison jab hitting fairies. It's also really fast and outruns the whole metagame . It can also uturn on mons like toxapex and tapu fini which wall it otherwise making it easy to gain momentum (we know this already, why does this matter?). The scarf set is really good because offensive teams can't switch in on it (yes, we know) so it can steamroll really really easily. Finally heres a replay where pheromosa got 4 kills [insert low ladder replay against a player who clearly is inexperienced] and this showcases how strong this mon can be.

This nomination is poor because it recites information that we all know. We know that pheromosa runs ice beam and poison jab, so why mention it? Also, the scarf set is extremely common, so singing odes to how good it is doesn't tell us anything new. Finally, a low-ladder replay doesn't show anything, because frankly you can get away with pretty much anything up to 1300.

So what was missing? This nomination failed to discuss how 1) metagame changes benefit pheromosa, 2) mention less common/underrated sets that have a niche which justifies a rise, 3) a decent replay (not needed, but helps a lot) against a notable player/high ladder that demonstrates the set you mentioned or just the mon putting in a lot of work and 4) grammatically correct and easy to read (imagine this had a lot of spelling errors and was a block of text; I can't bring myself to write like this though). Now let's look at what a good nomination would look like:


Good nomination:

Pheromosa has really been slept on recently. The rise of offensive teams (those which this mon does well against) as evident by [insert a popular offensive team seen on the ladder] psychic spam (mega metagross+tapu lele bulky and hyper offence) means that this mon is really anti-meta at the moment (discussing metagame trends). In addition, the lack of stall (remember, this doesn't reflect the current metagame, it's an example) and balanced builds means that the opportunity cost of running Pheromosa as a breaker instead of something like Hoopa-U is low, as you don't need to take into account bulkier teams as much when building (again, discussing metagame trends).

The specific set which people really don't prepare for is band. You can chunk mons like Magearna much more effectively, and banded poison jab 2HKOs max defence tapu fini, whereas the LO set does not [+1 252+ Atk Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 196-232 (56.9 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO] (slept on set and evidence that it's decent). Given the popularity of fini at the moment, this mon really helps to break through it, and fits really nicely on an offensive core with something like A-Greninja, Zard-X. A particular team I've been using is this [insert a team] and here is a replay that showcases banded Pheromosa. In this, I manage to lure tapu fini and chip it with Pheromosa to the point where my Zard-X cleaned. Anyways, this mon is really slept on atm, and should rise to A+ (good replay, explains a core/how to use the set you mentioned, and how this mon was useful in that replay).


Discussing how metagame trends benefit or hurt the mon you are nominating is crucial to have people take your post seriously. Here, mentioning how stall was not as common (lol though) due to a common build (metagross+lele) directly supports my nomination of Pheromosa. In essence, don't discuss how good or bad the mon currently is; use trends to justify why so.

Replays, cores, teams, etc. are proof and really help you stand out from people just theory-monning. While something might be good in theory (think: donphan in oras uu), it doesn't work in practice a lot of the time. Thus, it is critical for you to actually back up your post with something tangible. Doing all of this will add weight to your post, and consequently will improve the chance of people supporting it

------------
This is just an example of the posting quality that people expect when reading your posts. Let's try and improve the quality of this thread and have an intelligent discussion.
 
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I ain't doing shit m8.

Just kidding you're pretty spot on though.
Gotham-Mimiqui said:
IMO, Scolipede is pretty fine in B+. Sure he can beat a lot of stuff, has decent coverage and that Z-Lure is really cool, however due to his subpar bulk and bad defensive typing, Scoli has too much issues setting up in this Meta, and If it doesnt OHKO the current ennemy, the later can easily cripple and/or put it in range of kill with priority, which Scoli doesnt take well as it doesnt resist any relevant priority move. Most of the time you really, really need to force a switch, because even with the Z-Lure set, you are still predictable, and the opponent can play around you either simply attacking and trying to set up à SD. Scoli is a good sweeper, but It's really not close to what the A tier has in terms of threat level.
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Scolipede is pretty good for A-, which is where it should comfortably sit for now. The meta relies heavily on Landorus-T to impede or smash through teams. Being able to take on what is arguably one of Scolipede's best counters in the game while also being able to smash through a lot of its potential checks (majority of Steel-types barring a few) is something too. It's a scary lure that's difficult to stop in the traditional sense of having a Choice Scarf Pokemon go in and ravage it. Scolipede also can get a free Swords Dance on a lot of the tier right now with its decent typing something I never thought I would ever say about Bug / Poison in Pokemon. Ever.. It can set up on Tapu Fini almost freely so long as it doesn't switch into Taunt among other threats. It's also fairly bulky to take at least one priority attack on the physical side and Greninja pre-Ash is rather weak and relies on multiple (4-5 depending on damage roles) Water Shurikens to KO it. That's really intimidating for a lot of teams since balanced doesn't often run Toxapex due to being a major momentum drain and stuff like Ferrothorn is a smidgeon rarer these days (still relevant, just not on every team like say back in Gen 5). Hydro Vortex Scolipede really opens the floodgates for offensive teams because they can wreck havoc with other things like Swords Dance Garchomp, Swords Dance Landorus-T, Mega Charizard X, Thunder Punch Mega Metagross, etc.

A- has a lot of Pokemon like Scolipede that are pretty solid fits to teams and can create problems if teams don't have proper answers to them. Let me give you a hint on Hyper Offense - this isn't always the case, and stuff like Tapu Lele make it even harder to stop with Psychic Terrain on the field if the Scolipede player chooses to use it. It's played much more of a lure, but left unchecked it can smash through shit.
 
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Gotham-Mimiqui said:
IMO, Scolipede is pretty fine in B+. Sure he can beat a lot of stuff, has decent coverage and that Z-Lure is really cool, however due to his subpar bulk and bad defensive typing, Scoli has too much issues setting up in this Meta, and If it doesnt OHKO the current ennemy, the later can easily cripple and/or put it in range of kill with priority, which Scoli doesnt take well as it doesnt resist any relevant priority move. Most of the time you really, really need to force a switch, because even with the Z-Lure set, you are still predictable, and the opponent can play around you either simply attacking and trying to set up à SD. Scoli is a good sweeper, but It's really not close to what the A tier has in terms of threat level.
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Bug/Poison
Weak: Flying (x2), Rock (x2), Psychic (x2), edit: Fire (x2) wow haha how did i forget
Resist: Poison (/2), Grass (/4), Fighting (/4), Bug (/2), Fairy (/2)

Tell me again about that bad defensive typing? When you resist fairy and 4x resist fighting, you're gonna find plenty of chances to switch in and take not that much damage. If anything, scolipede's defensive typing is one of it's great assets.

252+ Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scolipede: 86-101 (33.2 - 38.9%) -- 13% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 115-136 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
(you can outspeed and ohko both in return, albeit after a protect for phero)

As far as weaknesses are concerned, 3 are remedied with a steel type, of which every viable team carries at least one.
 
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volx757 said:
Bug/Poison
Weak: Flying (x2), Rock (x2), Psychic (x2), edit: Fire (x2) wow haha how did i forget
Resist: Poison (/2), Grass (/4), Fighting (/4), Bug (/2), Fairy (/2)

Tell me again about that bad defensive typing? When you resist fairy and 4x resist fighting, you're gonna find plenty of chances to switch in and take not that much damage. If anything, scolipede's defensive typing is one of it's great assets.

252+ Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scolipede: 86-101 (33.2 - 38.9%) -- 13% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 115-136 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
(you can outspeed and ohko both in return, albeit after a protect for phero)

As far as weaknesses are concerned, 3 are remedied with a steel type, of which every viable team carries at least one.
Click to expand...
Scolipede actually would have perfect defensive Synergy with Tyranitar, and a good partner for the latter probably would be nice in a metagame where stuff like the Tapus, Metagross, and Landorus-T are extremely powerful and common threats that Scolipede can help respond to (I'm hesitant to call it a check to these outright). That said, this information is only relevant in a metagame where Tyranitar is particularly viable, and while he's not terrible, he's taken some hits in the transition between gens.

I'm on the fence about where Scolipede should be ranked, but this raises an interesting idea for an unexplored core maybe?
 
Kstreak said:
Excuse me if this incorrect formatting but I would like to propose Scolipede moving from B+ to A-

I believe that Scolipede has been completely slept on. Scolipede with 1 SD can ohko each tapu with little effort.
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 342-404 (99.4 - 117.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Koko: 420-494 (122 - 143.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Lele: 456-536 (132.5 - 155.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Bulu: 684-808 (198.8 - 234.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With this set, Scolipede can, with one protect, outspeed scarf Lele. Which alone is amazing
Scolipede @ Black Sludge
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 24 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Poison Jab
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake

You might think, what can scoli do to things other than the tapus? Well, Scolipede can deal extremely well with M-Metagross:
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 280-330 (93 - 109.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This damage is HUGE, Scolipede can allow for other sweepers, like Tapu Lele, to come in safely and sweep.

With M-Metagross being so common, I think this is a great counter to most steel types So, here are some more calcs.
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Heatran: 608-716 (157.5 - 185.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 354-418 (97.2 - 114.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scizor-Mega: 148-175 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
HOWEVER,
Scolipede has a hard time dealing with steel flyings, namely Celesteela and Skarm.
Also scoli has a hard time with scizor, even though you can recovery stall with protect since BP does 58% at most.
And on paper this seems good, but a weakness to rocks and Lando running around, scoli can find it hard to set up.
Also, SD can be hard to set up with Scoli since it is quite frail.

For these reasons, I believe Scoli should be A-

As a final note, you might say that scoli is very predictable, but the hydro vortex set can lure in lando, if need be.
Set example:
Scolipede @ Waterium Z
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Tail
- Megahorn
- Poison Jab
Lando calc: +1 252+ Atk Scolipede Hydro Vortex vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Landorus-Therian: 406-478 (106.5 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but I have no idea how your post has 11 likes. I actually agree about Scolipede, but my issue lies with the way you presented your post and some of the details you used.


I believe that Scolipede has been completely slept on. Scolipede with 1 SD can ohko each tapu with little effort. [SIZE=3 said:
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 342-404 (99.4 - 117.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Koko: 420-494 (122 - 143.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Lele: 456-536 (132.5 - 155.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Bulu: 684-808 (198.8 - 234.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO]
Click to expand...


Firstly, no one runs max defence tapu koko, bulu or lele, so why did you EV them as such???? Secondly, the calc vs. fini is misleading, dont make that calc the only one to mention rocks, and fini is bold. This has the potential to mislead people in other cases. Don't attempt to mislead with your calcs.

[SIZE=3 said:
With M-Metagross being so common, I think this is a great counter to most steel types So, here are some more calcs.
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Heatran: 608-716 (157.5 - 185.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 354-418 (97.2 - 114.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scizor-Mega: 148-175 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock]
Click to expand...


Scolipede doesn't 'counter' steel types. A counter is something that can come in and avoid the 2HKO from any commonly used move. It's a lure, that's it. Secondly, max defence heatran?


Sorry if this isn't relevant but I have a major issue with people posting calcs showing wack EV spreads. The last thing we need is for this thread to delve into people showing how mega metagross 'counters' Slowbro because "252+ special attack grass knot nearly OHKOs it."
 
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Panther-T said:
I'm sorry but I have no idea how your post has 11 likes. I actually agree about Scolipede, but my issue lies with the way you presented your post and some of the details you used.





Firstly, no one runs max defence tapu koko, bulu or lele, so why did you EV them as such???? Secondly, the calc vs. tapu fini is off, it wouldn't OHKO even after rocks because max defence fini runs a bold nature. Don't mislead people with your calcs.




Scolipede doesn't 'counter' steel types. A counter is something that can come in and avoid the 2HKO from any commonly used move. It's a lure, that's it. Secondly, max defence heatran?


Sorry if this isn't relevant but I have a major issue with people posting calcs showing wack EV spreads. The last thing we need is for this thread to delve into people showing how mega metagross 'counters' Slowbro because "252+ special attack grass knot nearly OHKOs it."
Click to expand...

.. they're max-max spreads. The point is to demonstrate the attacker's power, as you can infer that anything with a less-invested spread also gets KOd. This is particularly useful with new mons for which there are limited standards.

Fini:
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 314-372 (91.2 - 108.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

It's still an OHKO after rocks. The nitpick about the term 'counter' is the only thing worth mentioning, as scolipede outright 'counters' very few things.

Using max-max spreads in defensive calcs has the use that you know you beat *every* variant of that poke if you know you beat the most heavily invested one. No one is gonna be bringing up max SpAtk on a physical attacker cause it just doesn't make sense.
 
In fairness to the Fini calc some do run Calm (well okay, not quite Max HP / max Def).

But to also help demonstrate that Scolipede is still bulky enough to take hits:

0 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 102-121 (39 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scolipede: 126-153 (48.2 - 58.6%) -- approx. 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scolipede: 168-204 (64.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scolipede: 210-255 (80.4 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 120-142 (45.9 - 54.4%) -- 54.7% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 81-96 (31 - 36.7%) -- 65.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 132-156 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 200-236 (76.6 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Granted some of these are OHKOes with Stealth Rock, but the pivotal point we're getting at is - Scolipede has just enough bulk to survive some of its predators. If there's no priority you have to be bulky enough to survive, and I mean look at some of the bulkier Pokemon:

0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 169-199 (64.7 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <- that's at max power by the way
+2 252 Atk Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 220-259 (62.5 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Scolipede Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celesteela: 310-365 (77.8 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scolipede: 186-220 (71.2 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 163-193 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

A lot of those only require a little chip damage to get the KOes, or luring with things like Grass-types or Psychic-types with Hidden Power Fire.

No one is claiming that Scolipede is the next greatest wall - but it is something that is bulky enough to answer to its rather "conventional" checks, if you will. This, basically, is priority. It scares a lot of things off with Swords Dance and the just right coverage alone since Poison Jab will threaten any Fairy-type worth their salt and Megahorn is still brutal, so it is still very possible that Scolipede can get a Swords Dance and remain at full health.

Unless you're name is Toxapex or everyone is at full health - you're not safe. Few use Quagsire as an example and Shedinja is barely relevant here.

I also agree with Panther-T that unless the Pokemon is actually investing in bulk those random calculations should never be added. Ever.
 
Dakress said:
It's very anti-meta. It's 7 resistances (fire, grass, ice, poison, bug, steel and fairy) and 3 inmunities (normal, fighting and electric) helps it swich against a lot of common stuff like Pheromosa, Koko, Charizard-Y, ect. It also has a signature item which doubles it's attack (Thick Club), effectively giving it a whooping 392 atack with a neutral nature and zero investment whatsoever. Offensive wise it has stuff like Flare Blitz/Fire Punch, Shadow Bone & Bonemerang/EQ, all of which can easily kill something frail on the switch. It also has Stealth Rock, Will o' Wisp and Knock off support wise, so it can do a lot for a team.
Click to expand...

Thanks, that actually makes me want to use one now.:mad:

I actually do agree with bringing Primarina up, because it has good typing, access to good moves like Moonblast and Psychic, and has pretty good bulk. I mean, it can cover many current threats like both Greninjas and many dark types and fighting types. And, as Dakress said before,
Dakress said:
it has Psychic for M-Venusaur and Amoongus, HP Fire for Ferrothorn and Scizor, Energy Ball for bulky waters, etc.
Click to expand...
Primarina is definitely one of our best starters we've ever gotten, or at least in my opinion. Is it the best? Probably not. However, with some good consideration, we might be seeing Primarina making a big splash in this new generation of competitive play.
 
volx757 said:
.. they're max-max spreads. The point is to demonstrate the attacker's power, as you can infer that anything with a less-invested spread also gets KOd. This is particularly useful with new mons for which there are limited standards.

Fini:
+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 314-372 (91.2 - 108.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

It's still an OHKO after rocks. The nitpick about the term 'counter' is the only thing worth mentioning, as scolipede outright 'counters' very few things.

Using max-max spreads in defensive calcs has the use that you know you beat *every* variant of that poke if you know you beat the most heavily invested one. No one is gonna be bringing up max SpAtk on a physical attacker cause it just doesn't make sense.
Click to expand...

The point is that he should have presented the calc as such, as it has the POTENTIAL to mislead...
 
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