Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v2

[KingKdot]

To me the hardest thing to build for right now is Protean Gren. It absolutely destroys balance and most offenses. It is even better than it was when it was banned in ORAS because there is no way of knowing if it is protean or battle bond until you switch into a battle bond "counter" like Bulu or Fini which gets blown back with ice beam/gunk shot respectively. It's coverage is just way too hard to prepare for IMO and it's even better this gen than last.

 

[TimG57867]

Is it just me, or is anyone else having a problem with using some of the slower, specially defensive Dragons such as Goodra with all the Tapus milling about? Drampa doesn't seem to be working out for me either.

Dragon in general has taken a severe blow. Right off the bat, Fairy and Steel types running all over makes using the Dragon STAB utter agony these days. And this issue is only compounded by the omnispresence of Tapu Fini who has become the go-to Defogger at the moment. When she comes out she sets Misty Terrian which cuts the power of Dragon moves in general in half which only makes things tougher. This has lead to even greater 4MSS epidemic then last gen as many offensive Dragon mons like Salamence have to now forgo alternative coverage or utility moves to run a Poison/Steel attack or a strong Z-move which often is worthless after the first use. Given the current meta, Outrage Dragonite (and probably Outrage in general) is very unappealing these days. Garchomp is one of the few Dragons not as pressured by the Fairy/Steel overload because he has a strong secondary STAB that can do a chunk to most Fairy's while hitting Steel super effectively. But even he often finds himself in jam to new threats like Celesteela and Bulu with the former being immune to his ground STAB and the later resisting and weakening Earthquake which sometimes forces him to use Poison Jab. With all this in consideration, it goes without saying that slow Dragons with a subpar defensive stat like Goodra and Drampa are going to struggle without major support. For Drampa in particular I can only see him working on a well made Trick Room team in OU atm.

To me the hardest thing to build for right now is Protean Gren. It absolutely destroys balance and most offenses. It is even better than it was when it was banned in ORAS because there is no way of knowing if it is protean or battle bound until you switch into a battle bond "counter" like Bulu or Fini which gets blown back with ice beam/gunk shot respectively. It's coverage is just way too hard to prepare for IMO and it's even better this gen than last.

Greninja is certainly scary right now, but in a pinch there's Chansey which is probably the only defensive mon I can think of that can check both. Standard Specs Ash Greninja is pretty much walled save for crits:

Modest 252+ SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. Bold 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 171-202 (26.6 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

While the only thing Protean Greninja can do to break past her swiftly is run near max attack with Low Kick.

Adamant 252+ Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. Bold 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 299-354 (46.5 - 55.1%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO
*Stealth Rock is not factored in hear.

However, running that much attack on a max speed Protean Greninja is extremely suboptimal in the current OU meta while Low Kick is almost never used due to needing Gunk Shot to handle all the Fairies. And Greninja rarely runs Taunt in the current meta do to his 4MSS and even if he did Seismic Toss is a clean 2HKO bar suboptimal spreads with high HP investment. So a balanced team using Chansey to back the offensive mons is capable of staving off Greninja. Although Greninja being used most often in offense means it'll be quite tough to keep her safe from Greninja's teammates long enough for her to handle him.

 

[Dragontamer]

Greninja is certainly scary right now, but in a pinch there's Chansey which is probably the only defensive mon I can think of that can check both. Standard Specs Ash Greninja is pretty much walled save for crits:

There's plenty of Pokemon that wall Greninja. But the original poster was talking about "Balance" and "Offense" teams, which don't really have the room to run a defensive mon like Chansey. I'm fairly certain that Stall handles Greninja just fine due to Toxapex, Chansey, or whatever.

Primarina is my go-to answer right now, but every now and then I "guess wrong" and bring it into a Protean Gunk Shot. (Ash-Greninja can't have Gunk-Shot because its an ORAS move-tutor attack). But Greninja is really hard to check. The issue with Protean is that it's form changes AND its got Water Shuriken to always go back to Water-type. So even if you get the advantage as you switch in a Scarf Pokemon (Say Scarf Lele into the Dark Pulse), you can't just click the "Moonblast" button for the OHKO, because Water Shuriken will remove the Dark-type weaknesses.

So yeah, your answer to Greninja is basically "wall it". Fortunately, Brick Break Weavile does relatively well against Greninja (Outspeeds, threatens Brick Break for OHKO. Greninja's Life Orb Hydro Pump fails to OHKO)... but Weavile really wants to run Poison Jab in this meta.

Speaking of which... since when did Poison become a better attack than Fighting? Each time I use "Poison Jab" on my Weavile, I'm just lol-ing in my brain. Really? Poison Jab > Brick Break in this meta? Gosh... its all that Gen4 Shoddybattle play that I did ages ago I guess.

 

[TimG57867]

There's plenty of Pokemon that wall Greninja. But the original poster was talking about "Balance" and "Offense" teams, which don't really have the room to run a defensive mon like Chansey. I'm fairly certain that Stall handles Greninja just fine due to Toxapex, Chansey, or whatever.

Primarina is my go-to answer right now, but every now and then I "guess wrong" and bring it into a Protean Gunk Shot. (Ash-Greninja can't have Gunk-Shot because its an ORAS move-tutor attack). But Greninja is really hard to check. The issue with Protean is that it's form changes AND its got Water Shuriken to always go back to Water-type. So even if you get the advantage as you switch in a Scarf Pokemon (Say Scarf Lele into the Dark Pulse), you can't just click the "Moonblast" button for the OHKO, because Water Shuriken will remove the Dark-type weaknesses.

So yeah, your answer to Greninja is basically "wall it". Fortunately, Brick Break Weavile does relatively well against Greninja (Outspeeds, threatens Brick Break for OHKO. Greninja's Life Orb Hydro Pump fails to OHKO)... but Weavile really wants to run Poison Jab in this meta.

Speaking of which... since when did Poison become a better attack than Fighting? Each time I use "Poison Jab" on my Weavile, I'm just lol-ing in my brain. Really? Poison Jab > Brick Break in this meta? Gosh... its all that Gen4 Shoddybattle play that I did ages ago I guess.

Offense clearly can't squeeze her in but balance does not have the space either? Last gen I would tend to have balance teams with 3-4 attackers, a pivot like Rotom, and Chansey and I was hoping to try this again when the meta stabilizes.

PS: I think Protean occasionally runs Extrasensory to bop Venusaur and Amoongus so Toxapex isn't 100% safe on both variants like Chansey. Still usually pretty reliable.

 

[Dragontamer]

Offense clearly can't squeeze her in but balance does not have the space either? Last gen I would tend to have balance teams with 3-4 attackers, a pivot like Rotom, and Chansey and I was hoping to try this again when the meta stabilizes.

More like Balance only runs one wall, maybe two at the most. Even then, Balance should use walls that don't lose (as much) momentum, like Mega-Venu or Ferrothorn. Even then, a balance team may run a physical wall (Mega-Slowbro, Skarmory, etc. etc.) which won't be able to stop Greninja.

In general, the loss of momentum from Chansey is a huge risk on balance. If your opponent brings in something like Swords Dance Garchomp on a Softboil or Thunder-wave, your best hope ends up to be Toxic the Garchomp or some relatively minor damage from Seismic Toss... and then sac a bunch of `mon till it dies to Poison Damage + some weak Priority hits. Other walls have benefits (Skarm can Whirlwind, Venu can smack + Giga Drain, Ferrothorn can smack. etc. etc.).

Chansey / Toxapex sponge up far more damage than other walls. Toxapex is arguably easier to run as a sponge, because Haze is a good catch-all against setup-mon trying to get momentum. Chansey relies on T-Wave, which has been nerfed again and again and again.

 

[TimG57867]

More like Balance only runs one wall, maybe two at the most. Even then, Balance should use walls that don't lose (as much) momentum, like Mega-Venu or Ferrothorn. Even then, a balance team may run a physical wall (Mega-Slowbro, Skarmory, etc. etc.) which won't be able to stop Greninja.

In general, the loss of momentum from Chansey is a huge risk on balance. If your opponent brings in something like Swords Dance Garchomp on a Softboil or Thunder-wave, your best hope ends up to be Toxic the Garchomp or some relatively minor damage from Seismic Toss... and then sac a bunch of `mon till it dies to Poison Damage + some weak Priority hits. Other walls have benefits (Skarm can Whirlwind, Venu can smack + Giga Drain, Ferrothorn can smack. etc. etc.).

Chansey / Toxapex sponge up far more damage than other walls. Toxapex is arguably easier to run as a sponge, because Haze is a good catch-all against setup-mon trying to get momentum. Chansey relies on T-Wave, which has been nerfed again and again and again.

That's certainly true. In the past my answer to that would be to get in Rotom and cripple the sweeper with Will-O-Wisp. But if I missed or it was Zard-X and I didn't have a Landorus: "Well what to sack..."

Still going to try her out but burn support and a scarf mon will be neccesary to make her work on balance. And depending on what gets banned in the future I may just swap for Toxapex

 

[Photofluid]

Is it just me, or is anyone else having a problem with using some of the slower, specially defensive Dragons such as Goodra with all the Tapus milling about? Drampa doesn't seem to be working out for me either.

Having an unusable STAB really hurts and what is the point of being a special wall when you are countered by the single most powerful wall breaker in the meta.

There's plenty of Pokemon that wall Greninja. But the original poster was talking about "Balance" and "Offense" teams, which don't really have the room to run a defensive mon like Chansey. I'm fairly certain that Stall handles Greninja just fine due to Toxapex, Chansey, or whatever.

Primarina is my go-to answer right now, but every now and then I "guess wrong" and bring it into a Protean Gunk Shot. (Ash-Greninja can't have Gunk-Shot because its an ORAS move-tutor attack). But Greninja is really hard to check. The issue with Protean is that it's form changes AND its got Water Shuriken to always go back to Water-type. So even if you get the advantage as you switch in a Scarf Pokemon (Say Scarf Lele into the Dark Pulse), you can't just click the "Moonblast" button for the OHKO, because Water Shuriken will remove the Dark-type weaknesses.

So yeah, your answer to Greninja is basically "wall it". Fortunately, Brick Break Weavile does relatively well against Greninja (Outspeeds, threatens Brick Break for OHKO. Greninja's Life Orb Hydro Pump fails to OHKO)... but Weavile really wants to run Poison Jab in this meta.

Speaking of which... since when did Poison become a better attack than Fighting? Each time I use "Poison Jab" on my Weavile, I'm just lol-ing in my brain. Really? Poison Jab > Brick Break in this meta? Gosh... its all that Gen4 Shoddybattle play that I did ages ago I guess.

Says a lot about how broken the fairy typing is, lol (I mean seriously dragon immunity?)

 

[adman2]

Having an unusable STAB really hurts and what is the point of being a special wall when you are countered by the single most powerful wall breaker in the meta.



Says a lot about how broken the fairy typing is, lol (I mean seriously dragon immunity?)

Poison Jab with the same type bonus is one of my reasons for using Adamant Life Orb Qwilfish. That, and it's funny to see an obscure puffer fish Pokemon beat several top threats. It outspeeds the Tapus with Swift Swim, and even the ones that resist Water will be at worst 2HKO'd by a good poisonous poke. Fini's attacks can't really do much to it except for Nature's Madness, and that move works on everything anyway. Of course, I still have problems dealing with Toxapex and Ferrothorn, like most rain offense teams. Any advice on dealing with them is welcome.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Poison Jab with the same type bonus is one of my reasons for using Adamant Life Orb Qwilfish. That, and it's funny to see an obscure puffer fish Pokemon beat several top threats. It outspeeds the Tapus with Swift Swim, and even the ones that resist Water will be at worst 2HKO'd by a good poisonous poke. Fini's attacks can't really do much to it except for Nature's Madness, and that move works on everything anyway. Of course, I still have problems dealing with Toxapex and Ferrothorn, like most rain offense teams. Any advice on dealing with them is welcome.

I don't really have experience using a rain team, so I don't know if it would be possible to fit this in, but how about a Volcarona?

Volcarona @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 SpA (It's up to you to decide if bulky of fast is better)
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower / Fiery Dance / Fire Blast
- Psychic
- Hurricane
- Bug Buzz

It may seem odd to use a Fire type on a rain team because it's probably a bad idea but Volcarona does get Hurricane to abuse the rain, and it's capable of taking care of Ferrothorn and Toxapex.

Calcs

Ferrothorn

Apparently 252 HP / 168 SpD is standard for Ferrothorn, so that's what I used for the initial calcs. Just to be safe, I also went back and calculated for max SpD.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 376-448 (106.8 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 336-396 (95.4 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 460-544 (130.6 - 154.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 324-384 (92 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 288-340 (81.8 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 396-468 (112.5 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Flamethrower nets the OHKO on standard Ferrothorn without risking a miss, Fire Blast will always OHKO provided it doesn't miss, and Fiery Dance lets you snowball.

Toxapex

I wasn't sure what EVs Toxapex usually runs, so I just went straight to max SpD.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcarona Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 188-222 (61.8 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Unfortunately, it's not a OHKO, so Toxapex can still switch out and Regenerate. But because it has to switch to avoid being KO'ed, you can read their switch-in and possibly gain momentum, or just continue blasting stuff with Psychic. If you desperately need Toxapex gone, Dugtrio might work, though it doesn't benefit from the rain.

 

[Alphanex20]

I don't really have experience using a rain team, so I don't know if it would be possible to fit this in, but how about a Volcarona?

Volcarona @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 SpA (It's up to you to decide if bulky of fast is better)
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower / Fiery Dance / Fire Blast
- Psychic
- Hurricane
- Bug Buzz

It may seem odd to use a Fire type on a rain team because it's probably a bad idea but Volcarona does get Hurricane to abuse the rain, and it's capable of taking care of Ferrothorn and Toxapex.

Calcs

Ferrothorn

Apparently 252 HP / 168 SpD is standard for Ferrothorn, so that's what I used for the initial calcs. Just to be safe, I also went back and calculated for max SpD.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 376-448 (106.8 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 336-396 (95.4 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 460-544 (130.6 - 154.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 324-384 (92 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 288-340 (81.8 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 396-468 (112.5 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Flamethrower nets the OHKO on standard Ferrothorn without risking a miss, Fire Blast will always OHKO provided it doesn't miss, and Fiery Dance lets you snowball.

Toxapex

I wasn't sure what EVs Toxapex usually runs, so I just went straight to max SpD.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcarona Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 188-222 (61.8 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Unfortunately, it's not a OHKO, so Toxapex can still switch out and Regenerate. But because it has to switch to avoid being KO'ed, you can read their switch-in and possibly gain momentum, or just continue blasting stuff with Psychic. If you desperately need Toxapex gone, Dugtrio might work, though it doesn't benefit from the rain.

Only problem is Rocks tear this thing in two, not to mention Specs AshNinja can pick you off easily (with a potential rain boost to boot). You NEED good hazard control with this or it's useless.

 

[Kutscher]

is quagsire dead in this meta? quagsire was a must have in oras stall, but now he isn't even ranked in the VR(while things like mega absol and torkoal are ranked), i have faced a lot of stall teams some of them have quagsire, but most teams are using shedinja and haze toxapex to hold set-up sweepers, is mega sab/chansey/skarm/duggy/shedinja/tox the new face of stall? is quagsire dead(or is quagsire worse than mega absol?), also i would like to suggest stallbreaker lele, but using lefties and natures madness, it's beeing really good to me, biggest problem with AoA lele is the lack of damage provided by specs, but using nature madness in the switch you can put a lot of "counters" in the KO range and i find lefties to be the best item against stall cause you can have a nice sustain against the stall mons that lack hard damage(bar duggy, wich get me thinking if shed shell isn't even better than lefties), something smillar to stallberaker heatran. well if this is the new face of stall i recomend using fini/bulu/a-marowak/togekiss/sd gliscor/mega gyara/subseed serperior/taunt lo tornt/subcoil toxic zygarde/crawdaunt/cm mega sab they all have nice mach up against this core, while other stallbreakers may struggle with shedinja/dugtrio.

 

[adman2]

Another threat for rain offense teams is Mega Alakazam, oddly enough. It can stop the Water type sweepers by Tracing Swift Swim. Not that it wants to switch in on an attack, mind you, but one revenge kill can destroy hyper offense's momentum.

 

[Egyptianmego5]

Is there's any chance of Mmeta being suspected? It's only true counter is scizor, but even that can be trapped w/magnezone

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

No idea if there's plans to suspect mega meta but not having many hard counters doesn't make something suspect worthy. No/few true counters is something a sizeable number of pokemon can boast, especially when Z-sets are considered. Mega Metagross has a good number of checks however, such as Slowbro/Slowking, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Tangrowth, and Skarmory, as well as having okay switch-ins in some scarfers like Lando-T, Garchomp, and Excadrill.

It's absolutely difficult to handle though.

 

[pika pal]

So I haven't had time to brainstorm and test this out with a proper team, but with the discussion of Scolipede as of late, how would a core of Scolipede/Tyranitar (first thoughts to CB) do? Their defensive synergy is nearly if not completely perfect, and they seem like they'd complement each other pretty well in terms of role. If nothing else, I've seen broader strokes as the basis to build a core.

Thoughts and Theorymonning

Offensively, Scolipede deals can deal with Fairies, faster Psychic types (in case T-tar is wary of Focus Blast or Fairy coverage) Mega Venusaur, and can either run Earthquake to dent notable Steel types or Waterium-Z to lure bulky grounds (primarily Lando-T).

252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 205-244 (59.5 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 328-386 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (Sand also inhibits synthesis recovery in general)
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 231-273 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 182-216 (60.4 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Scolipede Hydro Vortex vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Landorus-Therian: 396-466 (103.9 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In exchange, Tyranitar can deal with Flying types, and helps dent/break the opposing team's walls into range of Scolipede for a SD sweep late in the game.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 195-229 (48.9 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 294-348 (83.5 - 98.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The core's obviously nothing too amazing, kinda have to aim for neutral hits on a lot of the relevant meta right now, and support has to be considered. There will be issues with one of bulky Water or Ground types, so something like a good Grass type to mitigate them is helpful, such as Leech Seed Tapu Bulu. Bulu can use Bulk Up to muscle its way past fatter mons neutral to its Grass STAB such as SubCoil Zygarde and Physically Defensive Toxapex, or Substitute if it wants to try to go for more of a Stallbreaking approach.

+1 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 163-193 (53.6 - 63.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
+1 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. +1 200 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 172-204 (42.2 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery
+1 0 Atk Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 77-91 (23.9 - 28.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

Scarf Tapu Lele also works given its extreme power after Psychic Terrain. Deals with the noted two using STABs, as well as bulky resists to the other two's STABs like Buzzwole, and has options to deal with other potential pests: T-bolt for Celesteela, Shadow Ball to lure Metagross, while also providing an offensive check to both Greninjas. Psychic Terrain also offers a buffer against priority, which eases Scolipede's clean up sweep late game.

This core also mainly does well against balance and bulky offense, so it's probably wise to consider a Stallbreaker for more defensive teams, particularly one that's ready for the trio of mole pain. Rocks and hazards for more wear-and-tear are obviously helpful, but then when aren't they?

Mainly posting here instead of the core thread because I haven't had time to play since Genesect left (most recent major shift), and since I haven't had time to test any of this out properly, this is more to put the idea out for anyone feeling experimental or who wants to discuss the idea further.

It's almost certainly better on paper than in practice, but is there any merit to this?

 

[Morningstar]

What are your opinions on the Tapu in general? Do you think they are too centralizing, or do you think that they not not the reason why there is only HO and stall teams in OU?

 

[Mikael]

i feel tapus are fine and don't think they are really broken or overcentralizing. What is centralizing, however, is Landorus-T (imo). that thing is just everywhere

 

[Gary]

I honestly don't know what you guys are talking about, but HO and stall are not the only viable playstyles lol. In fact, I see less HO than just standard offense that usually ends up being just straight bulky offense, and balance is still great. I mean, just look at a lot of the recent SPL matches. So far only two players have used stall, and all of the other matches have been a mixed of BO, balance, and offense. ABR vs Lysergic in round 1, both were using bulkier teams with ABR utilizing good balance Pokemon such as Skarmory, Fini, and Coil Zygarge, while Lysergic ran more of an offensive build but still on the bulkier side with Heatran and Zapdos. Aim vs Anti in round 2, both teams using a very similar bulky core with Tangrowth, Heatran, and Lando-T. There have also been lots of Amoonguss and Ferrothorn too. I'd say the only notable match in SPL where HO was utilized was in Axel's match where he brought that Scolipede HO team, and Zamrock's match with the Sticky Web PZ team.

Like, I'm just not seeing it. Do you guys know what HO even consists of usually? If not, take a look at Xtrashine's HO in ORAS that was fucking everywhere during Smogon ladder tour, where it's basically a lead with multiple win cons to heavily pressure teams so another win con can usually clean up. You're not really seeing that in SPL at all right now, nor even on the ladder, but when is the ladder not a stall fest? It was the same shit last gen. OU has plenty of Pokemon that fit solidly on bulkier teams, such as Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Tapu Fini, Amoonguss, Magearna, Buzzwole, Lando-T, etc. Yeah sure the meta may be a bit more offensive in nature compared to the end of ORAS, but that's kind of what happens when they introduce a ton of new offensive threats. Despite that, the meta is far from being a stall HO fest, in fact I think it honestly promotes use of a variety of different kinds of builds. Sure we have plenty of good balance breakers, but we also have ways to combat that as well.

 

[onlyheretocomplain]

There is a special place in hell for Scolipede users who keep Substituting and Protecting when they already have enough boosts to outspeed the entire enemy team.

It's not the biggest threat in OU, but it is the most annoying.

 

[PK Gaming]

What are your opinions on the Tapu in general? Do you think they are too centralizing, or do you think that they not not the reason why there is only HO and stall teams in OU?

They're all pretty obnoxious.

Tapu Fini - Is an answer to a ton of threats, Defogs for days, literally everywhere.
Tapu Bulu - Blows up pretty much anything that switches into it, Leech Seed + Grass Terrain is nasty.
Tapu Lele - Obvious.
Tapu Koko - Fast and strong, God of momentum.

It's actually kind of amazing how similar in power they are relative to each other.

 

[Photofluid]

i feel tapus are fine and don't think they are really broken or overcentralizing. What is centralizing, however, is Landorus-T (imo). that thing is just everywhere

Land-T is a bit like a lesser Aegislash in that it blanket checks an enormous proportion of the meta while still having the flexibility to cater toward specific demands of your team. (a lot of it comes from amazing typings and base stats).

I have never considered either of them "centralizing" but hey aegi is banned so what do I know......

 

[Seth_]

Let's CT Tapu Fini defog team, most common offensive teams

Tapu fini defog is a big thing in current meta. People are using it everywhere and it is kinda amazing right now. Not only it almost always get rid of hazards but also checks some threats like zardX, Mega Gyrados, Ash Greninja. You can freely carry rock weak mons like Vorcarona or Zard Y much easier than in previous gen. However, even if these builds are so strong they still have weakness.

Lets start with lead Skarm.

Even if it is a bit weaker than in previous gen because lack of custap berry lead skarm still can birng SR or spikes it is faster than most common tapu fini set. Spikes are amazing against every kind of metagross teams because they wear it down so quickly and that gives Skarm edge over other leads like Azelf.

And then lets prevent defog.

Easier said than done, isn't it? There are very little things that can flat out OHKO Fini, but still there are and they are viable. Taunt also can be really helpful (like in Skarm's case). Remember that sometimes preventing defog is not most important thing to do. Many sweepers enjoy tapu fini being gone and getting damage on that thing can be crucial!

(specs)/

+

All of above mons are extremely good attackers but they are badly hurt by tapu fini popularity.

And speaking of M Gyarados which is huge late game sweeper here is nice new spread:

Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 96 HP / 188 Atk / 224 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Substitute

What that achieves? If you keep rocks away you can (almost always) live 2 moonblasts form scarf tapu lele before mega evolution.

Another thing - scarf gengar is crazy good right now.

 

[Lumeneko]

Total change of subject, but how viable do you guys think Electrium Z Alolan Golem explosion will be? I mean, I know that explosion's z move power goes down to 200, but it can OHKO Tapu Fini at +1. <-- Probably not important. Plus, you get the upside of not dying when you use Z-Explosion. Plus galvanize. You also get an OHKO on a defensive slowbro.

 

[Martin]

Total change of subject, but how viable do you guys think Electrium Z Alolan Golem explosion will be? I mean, I know that explosion's z move power goes down to 200, but it can OHKO Tapu Fini at +1. <-- Probably not important. Plus, you get the upside of not dying when you use Z-Explosion. Plus galvanize. You also get an OHKO on a defensive slowbro.

Galvanize doesn't change Breakneck Blitz's type.

 

[BeardyBennett]

Total change of subject, but how viable do you guys think Electrium Z Alolan Golem explosion will be? I mean, I know that explosion's z move power goes down to 200, but it can OHKO Tapu Fini at +1. <-- Probably not important. Plus, you get the upside of not dying when you use Z-Explosion. Plus galvanize. You also get an OHKO on a defensive slowbro.

The big problem I see is that those mons won't stay in against it. Likely the opponent will just switch into a Ground type that resists both STABs and wastes the Z crystal. And also can't Tapu Fini just outspeeds and possibly kill the A-Golem anyway?