Schools

[Taistelu]

May as well conquer my new thread fear now, s/o Oddish., randomly looking through old PM conversations and I was reminded to make this.

Basically, I know Smogon is a pretty diverse place, and I'm really curious as to what schools are like in whatever part of the globe you live in (I live in the UK, personally, and know very little about other countries' education). I guess this thread would just be a place to share your current/past experiences of your school, or schools in general and your thoughts on the education system of where you are. For this thread, I'm specifically thinking Pre-16 (or 18, depending on what part of the globe you live in), rather than Uni or Collage. Do you think Pre-16/18 education is handled well in your country? What do you think could be improved?

 

[Kink]

May as well conquer my new thread fear now, s/o Oddish., randomly looking through old PM conversations and I was reminded to make this.

Basically, I know Smogon is a pretty diverse place, and I'm really curious as to what schools are like in whatever part of the globe you live in (I live in the UK, personally, and know very little about other countries' education). I guess this thread would just be a place to share your current/past experiences of your school, or schools in general and your thoughts on the education system of where you are. For this thread, I'm specifically thinking Pre-16 (or 18, depending on what part of the globe you live in), rather than Uni or Collage. Do you think Pre-16/18 education is handled well in your country? What do you think could be improved?

Education is generally mishandled as a general construct. From teachers to subjects to policies, every educational system I've encountered seems to have numerous politically motivated flaws that are apparent to many but solved by few.

 

[lula_preso]

Pre-college, I studied in two public school in Brazil. I don't know if it is a term used in english as well, but I mean: schools that you don't have to pay to frequent lol and are maintained with taxes money and stuff

One was a Municipal School - I don't know if there is an equivalent term in English. Is a rough translation of "Escola Municipal", which means everything was ran by prefecture of my town.It is a small city, under 30.000 inhabitants, but everything was damn fine.
I studied there untill 8th grade and everything was fine. It was by not any means great, but I learned the basics, the conditions to study were very good and teachers carried about students - I had a music teacher and karate lessons there extraclass, which is rare if you don't study in a private school here.

My last three years were in a State School - Again, just a rough translation of "Escola estadual", which is ran by my state government. In this case, Santa Catarina.
It was damn awful. Our dear politicians never gave the school the money needed for the school properly function. Desks, chairs, boards etc were old, there were not ar conditioners and sometimes even ventilators, food served there was lame...
Teachers were not paid accordingly, so I had months of free classes because there were no professionals willing to work. I graduated without proper knowings of chemistry and physics, for example, because or the teachers were bad or I didn't have them for most of the year. And if I had not paid private english classes, I would not know even the basics. I remember teachers coming to class, saying "hang on there for a moment and read this book" and then coming back at the end of the class. lol

From what I know (which is not much), private institutions are, in general, better for our studants here. :[

 

[Ortheore]

Hmm so in Australia it generally goes K-6 then 7-12 (so there's no middle school)

Primary school I don't remember much of, other than that I went to a catholic school because of the small size (family is not even religious). It was fine, though I guess probably a bit sheltered maybe?

High school I went to a selective school, such that they only selected really capable students and boy was it fucking shit. It's fine if you meet expectations- you study a shitload, get good marks, eventually develop a clear idea of what you want to do for your career and therefore what you're going to do at uni, shit like that. But if you slip up for any reason, regardless of whether or not it's within your control, they fucking jump on you like a feral dog. I'd characterise the word "support" as being part of a foreign language, but it's probably more a case of them having no idea that it's even supposed to mean something at all. The school counsellor was laughably inadequate, failing to recognise burgeoning depression and instead suggesting that engaging with the teachers in trivial ways would somehow turn things around. While I was there, exactly one teacher recognised what was going on, the rest didn't give a fuck and would just keep hounding me over missed homework, even if it was non-assessable and from several months ago. Every failing was made a point of criticism, even something as simple as not having a clear plan for post-high school. The only thing positive about the place was that most of the students were really cool, where a lot of the other schools in my area have a reputation for being full of drop-kicks. Still, overall I'd say going to that school was the worst mistake of my life.

Special shout-out to English for being a hot steaming pile of shit, despite being the only compulsory subject I still have no idea why the fuck it's even taught. I don't think it's possible for any other subject to even approach the misery inflicted by this abomination

oh shit, it's been years and I'm still really fucking salty

 

[Taistelu]

Education is generally mishandled as a general construct. From teachers to subjects to policies, every educational system I've encountered seems to have numerous politically motivated flaws that are apparent to many but solved by few.

Sadly so, which is a real shame

Pre-college, I studied in two public school in Brazil. I don't know if it is a term used in english as well, but I mean: schools that you don't have to pay to frequent lol and are maintained with taxes money and stuff

One was a Municipal School - I don't know if there is an equivalent term in English. Is a rough translation of "Escola Municipal", which means everything was ran by prefecture of my town.It is a small city, under 30.000 inhabitants, but everything was damn fine.
I studied there untill 8th grade and everything was fine. It was by not any means great, but I learned the basics, the conditions to study were very good and teachers carried about students - I had a music teacher and karate lessons there extraclass, which is rare if you don't study in a private school here.

My last three years were in a State School - Again, just a rough translation of "Escola estadual", which is ran by my state government. In this case, Santa Catarina.
It was damn awful. Our dear politicians never gave the school the money needed for the school properly function. Desks, chairs, boards etc were old, there were not ar conditioners and sometimes even ventilators, food served there was lame...
Teachers were not paid accordingly, so I had months of free classes because there were no professionals willing to work. I graduated without proper knowings of chemistry and physics, for example, because or the teachers were bad or I didn't have them for most of the year. And if I had not paid private english classes, I would not know even the basics. I remember teachers coming to class, saying "hang on there for a moment and read this book" and then coming back at the end of the class. lol

From what I know (which is not much), private institutions are, in general, better for our studants here. :[

The school I went to also had financial issues. It was never as bad as you've described, but you could tell they often had old equipment that they couldn't update and the teachers always went on about the school's struggling financial state, despite the fact the head of the school earned huge amounts of money, and a lot of their senior staff also earned quite a chunk, and you wonder where the money went.

As far as I know, private institutions tend to produce better grades in a variety of places, but naturally the cost tends to turn most people away.

 

[GotR]

I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about school in general over the past year. I tried writing out these thoughts in full twice, but the post was long, meandering, and generally off-topic, so instead I'm just going to condense what I think into a smaller space and not try to justify it too much.

School works for a small subset of people who are good at studying hard and want to go on to university (or college, for you 'Muricans - I'm Aussie like Ortheore). These people do well in exams, and use their exam results to achieve their short term goals.

Everyone else is left out to dry.

I think the idea that schools exist so that kids can learn is a lie, or perhaps so many people believe it at this point that it's an unintentional untruth. School is about getting the desired results: in this case, academic. Schools, teachers, and the kids themselves are all taught to believe that the end goal should be to get the highest possible score, and the ability to learn is just a charade, a skill being measured between kids to find out who the 'winner' is.

I believe this is derived from the fact that we're such a results base society, and we've made the basic assumption that 'kids who get good results on tests' will turn into 'adults who get good results in life'. This assumption is fundamentally flawed, and pursuing to the extent we have only serves to alienate the majority of children.

We haven't stopped to consider that skills like critical thinking and the ability to maintain healthy relationships are far more important to future happiness than test results, but we continue to teach content that ends up being irrelevant to the majority of people as compulsory while the stuff that's actually important is never explained.

Often this isn't the school's fault - in my case, my school and my teachers went out of their way to prove that they gave a shit about me, even that they valued the kinds of skills I just mentioned, but the education system as a whole requires that this outdated model be forced on students in wasn't meant for.

tl;dr: we're a results focused society that gives more of a shit about our kid's academic achievements than helping them live happy fulfilling lives or contribute back to society as a whole. The entire system is ass-backward.

If anyone has disagrees with what I think about this, I'll be better able to explain my position if I have specific questions to answer - fire away.

 

[Martin]

I think the school system is awful, unnecessarily stressful, horrifically designed, inefficient, proves fucking nothing about anyone and is terrible on quite literally every level imaginable. I want to go back in time and punch the person who came up with it and thought it was a good idea.

Edit: this post wasn't very constructive, but the reason I have such a huge fucking grudge against schools and the education system basically comes down to the fact that you can trace it back as the cause of me spending five years of my life in depression (due to social reasons that were pushed onto me by the system, meaning I can conclude that school is the mechanism) and due to the fact that the inability to balance it with the stuff I'd rather be doing is causing it to be a massive psychological crush on me just as I've been able to get to grips with the social side of it. It's a vicious circle to the point that it is the only thing in the world that I put energy and effort into actively hating.

 

[Conni]

I don't really mind the school systems since I was kind of an A+ Student, I don't really mind the school systems unless its out of wack and the grading systems aren't reasonable, but if they were reasonable then I would adapt quickly and start to understand the requirements. My Middle School was pretty good because they had a lot of funding from families and sources and they had a reliable student council that I was a part of, and the school committee was p good because they used their funding to improve the school to the liking of the students, such as those little roofs that you can eat picnics and stuff under and a volleyball court and stuff. I think that parents should be careful and knowledgable about the school they send their children to if they have a choice and the money. School is an important part of life and I think that its a very important time and part of your childhood and good school times really impacts your future in my opinion. So yeah some schools have some downs but its cool to adapt and get used to school systems and maybe it'll work out.

The only thing I hate about school is that they don't have junk food. #FREEJUNKFOODATSCHOOLS

 

[GotR]

I don't really mind the school systems since I was kind of an A+ Student, I don't really mind the school systems unless its out of wack and the grading systems aren't reasonable, but if they were reasonable then I would adapt quickly and start to understand the requirements. My Middle School was pretty good because they had a lot of funding from families and sources and they had a reliable student council that I was a part of, and the school committee was p good because they used their funding to improve the school to the liking of the students, such as those little roofs that you can eat picnics and stuff under and a volleyball court and stuff. I think that parents should be careful and knowledgable about the school they send their children to if they have a choice and the money. School is an important part of life and I think that its a very important time and part of your childhood and good school times really impacts your future in my opinion. So yeah some schools have some downs but its cool to adapt and get used to school systems and maybe it'll work out.

The only thing I hate about school is that they don't have junk food. #FREEJUNKFOODATSCHOOLS

I think the school system is awful, unnecessarily stressful, horrifically designed, inefficient, proves fucking nothing about anyone and is terrible on quite literally every level imaginable. I want to go back in time and punch the person who came up with it and thought it was a good idea.

Edit: this post wasn't very constructive, but the reason I have such a huge fucking grudge against schools and the education system basically comes down to the fact that you can trace it back as the cause of me spending five years of my life in depression (due to social reasons that were pushed onto me by the system, meaning I can conclude that school is the mechanism) and due to the fact that the inability to balance it with the stuff I'd rather be doing is causing it to be a massive psychological crush on me just as I've been able to get to grips with the social side of it. It's a vicious circle to the point that it is the only thing in the world that I put energy and effort into actively hating.

Something that got cut from my earlier post was that I think school is designed for a small number of students, but is compulsory for all. Conni, you sound like one of the people it's designed for: at least reasonably intelligent naturally, capable of studying, and without a whole heap of external problems (like mental conditions, bad family situation, etcetera). I'd guess that you either want to go to university/college (or are already in uni/college, or already graduated), and had/have the time and inclination to get the results you were/are capable of.

Martin very obviously didn't have that experience, and neither did I (although I didn't make that particularly clear from my post; a lot of the problems I had with school were problems with myself that merely manifested in the setting schools encourage). Schools tend to be terrible for people who don't aim for tertiary education, or who can't afford for it to be their highest priority, or for people who need extra help to learn as well as they can, or... well, that list goes on quite a long way.

 

[Taistelu]

I don't really mind the school systems since I was kind of an A+ Student, I don't really mind the school systems unless its out of wack and the grading systems aren't reasonable, but if they were reasonable then I would adapt quickly and start to understand the requirements. My Middle School was pretty good because they had a lot of funding from families and sources and they had a reliable student council that I was a part of, and the school committee was p good because they used their funding to improve the school to the liking of the students, such as those little roofs that you can eat picnics and stuff under and a volleyball court and stuff. I think that parents should be careful and knowledgable about the school they send their children to if they have a choice and the money. School is an important part of life and I think that its a very important time and part of your childhood and good school times really impacts your future in my opinion. So yeah some schools have some downs but its cool to adapt and get used to school systems and maybe it'll work out.

The only thing I hate about school is that they don't have junk food. #FREEJUNKFOODATSCHOOLS

I'm probably taking this out of context, but where I am, the whole grading system is, simply put, bullshit. In the UK almost (if not every) subject is academic with a test contributing a significant % of the final grade at the end, if not the whole %. Speaking of tests, they are easily the most frustrating part of the education system. In the UK all that's happening is an increased focus on testing. One minor mistake can have a terrible knock on effect to the rest of your education. Make one or a few small mistakes? Tough luck, you've dropped a grade for that, so now you can't do the A-Level course you've wanted to do for ages which is a requirement for that University course that's needed for your dream job.

Of course, before you even do that test, you're going to go through a lot of stress which is the last thing you want if you have other things to deal with.

and they are making qualifications even more exam heavy.

 

[GotR]

I'm probably taking this out of context, but where I am, the whole grading system is, simply put, bullshit. In the UK almost (if not every) subject is academic with a test contributing a significant % of the final grade at the end, if not the whole %. Speaking of tests, they are easily the most frustrating part of the education system. In the UK all that's happening is an increased focus on testing. One minor mistake can have a terrible knock on effect to the rest of your education. Make one or a few small mistakes? Tough luck, you've dropped a grade for that, so now you can't do the A-Level course you've wanted to do for ages which is a requirement for that University course that's needed for your dream job.

Of course, before you even do that test, you're going to go through a lot of stress which is the last thing you want if you have other things to deal with.

and they are making qualifications even more exam heavy.

This isn't as much of a problem when you realise that there are a shitload more ways to get into uni than straight out of school, and that some of them require less work than getting good enough grades. The main thing you miss out on is the experience - it generally takes a couple of years, and by that point you're older than everyone else and it's harder to get into the social side of everything.

The question that raises is 'if you can get into uni by other means than through school, why are we so obsessed with school and grades in general?' Schools, teachers, and parents all put ridiculous emphasis on final exams, but it leads to the false assumption that their imperative for your future. They're not. They make things easier, sure, but it's not like 'you messed up this test, your future is now over', like we keep being told.

 

[Taistelu]

This isn't as much of a problem when you realise that there are a shitload more ways to get into uni than straight out of school, and that some of them require less work than getting good enough grades. The main thing you miss out on is the experience - it generally takes a couple of years, and by that point you're older than everyone else and it's harder to get into the social side of everything.

The question that raises is 'if you can get into uni by other means than through school, why are we so obsessed with school and grades in general?' Schools, teachers, and parents all put ridiculous emphasis on final exams, but it leads to the false assumption that their imperative for your future. They're not. They make things easier, sure, but it's not like 'you messed up this test, your future is now over', like we keep being told.

Right. Getting into the social side is indeed tricky when there's a notable age different, but it's not just lost experience, it's lost time as well, years that you're never getting back for something that you failed. While there might be other options, it's always better to get it done first try. The whole "you messed up this test, your future is now over" is repeatedly thrown at you left right and centre (albeit in more subtle ways) that it's hard to not think this, especially when you're supposed to "look up" to teachers and parents.

 

[lula_preso]

On the 'school system' stuff topic: I've heard very good things about schools in Finland and the way they are teaching their kids.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ry-reforms-its-education-system-10123911.html

That is not the article I originally read, but I believe the point is the same.

Is anyone here from there? o: It would be cool to hear if things are really like that in practice. That should be dope.

 

[swaggron711]

If anyone of you thinks the school system in their country is screwed up - do visit India! :p

When I was in school (till the age of 15) there used to be this huge emphasis on rote learning. Huge one page answers was expected even if the actual answer (the underlying concept behind it) is one line. Also they used to deduct marks for poor handwriting. Also I remember, we used to get beaten a lot by teachers for creating nuisance in class (never stopped us lmao but it's nice they've stopped)

As fas as the subjects are concerned
1. English (obviously)
2. Hindi/regional language/Sanskrit/French/German
3. Social Science (hated the hell out of it)
4. Maths
5. Science (split into Physics, Chem and Bio after 9th grade)

and the extra subjects
1. PE
2. Yoga (this was damn fun)
3. Art (hated it with a passion)

 

[swaggron711]

Hey there, I live in the United States and am currently in High School. I go to a school that focus on Communication primarily and secondary in the Arts. Therefore a lot of classes I take are focused around these things and would help you in the future if you were thinking of enrolling in a college which focuses on these things. Some of the electives I've taken are Communications Technology, Effective Speech, Digital Video, and Mass Media. I've enjoyed these a lot and can't wait to see what else I get to take in my future HS years. n_n

Sounds good. It is in college that we get to choose a specialization per se.

 

[Carrier]

Went through what I assume is the typical k-5 6-8 9-12 American school system, and here are my thoughts.

First, I didn't really have a great relationship with the schools. I was the kid that disrupted class, talked back to the teacher when there was something I believed to be stupid, and didn't take shit. Yep, THAT kid. Apparently I was bad enough to get kicked out of preschool; I didn't even know that could happen.

School is fine if you don't really care. Everyone panics about the grades, etc. but frankly not much of it matters. K-8 has virtually no impact on high school where I am, and all you need for high school is to get OK standardized scores. Considering you get retakes for them, it's not too bad.

 

[Ortheore]

That reminds me of another interesting point. Am I right in saying that american universities and the like look at your average grades across all 4 years of high school? Plus random entrance exams which iirc you can take whenever (SATs and the like). I'm kinda interested in the dynamic that creates, because that's very different to what I went through- for aussies, our universities basically only look at your final year of high school, which means you can practically do whatever the fuck you want up until that point (academically), but for that one year you're perpetually stressed as it feels like even a single fuck-up will ruin the rest of your life. Also the final exams are not separate from your school grades, so if you screw up the final you can't just retake the exam, it would be another year of classes until you got another crack at it (obviously a terrible option).

Anyway, just generally I think Carrier's point about not caring is important. Not that you shouldn't care, but that it's so easy to get caught up in the frantic stress of being some perfect straight A student that it can seriously ruin things. Just enjoy life, do what you do and take it as it comes. Also it helps if you have a clear goal, since then you have a minimum criteria for doing what you want, if you stick to that you'll almost definitely do just fine. Anything more than that minimum is nice, but not worth freaking out over

 

[jalmont]

We haven't stopped to consider that skills like critical thinking and the ability to maintain healthy relationships are far more important to future happiness than test results, but we continue to teach content that ends up being irrelevant to the majority of people as compulsory while the stuff that's actually important is never explained.

What would you consider to be "content that ends up being irrelevant to the majority of people"? What should be taught in its place? A critical thinking class? What exactly would that entail?

 

[GotR]

What would you consider to be "content that ends up being irrelevant to the majority of people"? What should be taught in its place? A critical thinking class? What exactly would that entail?

In the vast majority of cases, learning scientific method is much more useful than scientific content, for example. You only use science content (stuff like electron shells, the kingdoms of life, etcetera) if you plan on continuing science studies during tertiary education, and most people don't. Even the people who do aren't always taught correctly because universities don't actually have a say in school content, and often end up having to re-teach students the stuff they thought they knew.

Learning how to acquire useful evidence, how to avoid logical fallacies, how to separate what you believe from what you can prove - these are just a couple of examples of skills that are part of the scientific method that are useful in everyday life, but that are generally completely ignored in favour of teaching content.

This is also relevant to subjects like math and history. Most people don't need to know much more math than can be taught in primary schools, and yet math was compulsory (where I am, anyway) up until year 11. We learned very basic calculus before dropping math was an option, and the vast majority of people are never going to use that knowledge again. History I could actually see being useful if it focused less on dates and names and events, and more on culture and the impact those events had on society, but at least where I am it wasn't usually taught that way.

In response to 'A critical thinking class?', I think it would absolutely be reasonable to supplement science classes with scientific theory classes (emphasis on supplement rather than replace). The kinds of content that I think tend to become irrelevant to most people are still necessary, I just think we should focus a lot less on them and more on giving kids the skills they need to be prepared to life after school. The scientific theory class would aim to teach the skills I mentioned above, among others. Critical thinking would certainly be included.

Also, just in case it seems like I'm trying to shit on science/math, I'm actually studying physics and mathematics at university this year; but I can recognise that my personal opinion about how interesting science and math are isn't shared by most.

 

[AM]

You didn't really respond to the critical thinking class question. Pretty sure, correct me if I'm wrong Jalmont , he was asking about the details of what that class would entail.

That reminds me of another interesting point. Am I right in saying that american universities and the like look at your average grades across all 4 years of high school? Plus random entrance exams which iirc you can take whenever (SATs and the like). I'm kinda interested in the dynamic that creates, because that's very different to what I went through- for aussies, our universities basically only look at your final year of high school, which means you can practically do whatever the fuck you want up until that point (academically), but for that one year you're perpetually stressed as it feels like even a single fuck-up will ruin the rest of your life. Also the final exams are not separate from your school grades, so if you screw up the final you can't just retake the exam, it would be another year of classes until you got another crack at it (obviously a terrible option).

Anyway, just generally I think Carrier's point about not caring is important. Not that you shouldn't care, but that it's so easy to get caught up in the frantic stress of being some perfect straight A student that it can seriously ruin things. Just enjoy life, do what you do and take it as it comes. Also it helps if you have a clear goal, since then you have a minimum criteria for doing what you want, if you stick to that you'll almost definitely do just fine. Anything more than that minimum is nice, but not worth freaking out over

Generally speaking yes American schools take into account the 4 years of high school as a whole. After that it's based on a number of factors. As far as dynamics though I think the concept of 4 years of high school is pointless. You can condense the 4 years of high school into perhaps 2 even less considering the level of classes you are taking, and would be fine. Then again most of the general stuff taught in high school, at least in public education, is largely pointless regurgitation of past concepts that you will never really use in the real world unless you plan on becoming a scientist or other specialized occupation.

I have my own opinions about different things but this thread is a good read so far. Keep it coming.

 

[GotR]

You didn't really respond to the critical thinking class question. Pretty sure, correct me if I'm wrong Jalmont , he was asking about the details of what that class would entail.

I felt that how I would teach those kind of skills mightn't be optimal, so wasn't sure me drawing up some kind of lesson plan would be very useful. Having said that, most of what I know on critical thinking topics has been taught to me by some combination of my father and science podcasts, so I know it can be taught.

If you dumped me in front of a room full of kids right now and told me to do my best, I think I'd rely heavily on analysing current issues and dissecting how they've been reported, drawing attention to what's done well and what isn't. I'd want the kids themselves to lead the conversation - me telling them stuff isn't going to impart these kinds of skills as effectively as them telling me what they think and me challenging their assumptions and leading them to they way of thinking I'm talking about.

 

[GotR]

Sorry for double post, just figured out how to articulate myself a bit better.

The problem with my post above is that the kind of class I've suggested is almost entirely dependent on being taught by a good teacher. In the perfect world that I'm arguing for, we cut a whole heap of bad teachers, increase teacher pay as an incentive for more intelligent, capable people to go into the profession, we reduce class sizes by an arbitrary number (personally I think 8-12 is a good balance of having different student view points but allowing teachers to interact with students on an individual basis, but I'm really just pulling that number out of my ass), we push school back 2 hours (to facilitate students sleeping enough and because there's evidence that teenagers actually don't learn as well during early morning), and we focus less on academic results and more on preparing every student for life after school (while still providing enough academic content to facilitate the transition to tertiary education, for those who want to go that route).

This isn't going to happen, because the school system doesn't exist in some kind of vacuum without outside factors. For example, how do you non-subjectively determine which teachers are good and which aren't, while also de-emphasising non-subjective results? How do students who don't live in walking distance from school get there for a 10am start if their parents leave for work at 8?

The problem is that, while what I think is optimal is unrealistic and unachievable, the system we currently have is fucked. From my own experience, from people I've been to school with, from people I've talked to about school after they left, even from several other people in this thread, it's clear that something isn't working. The system we're stuck with at the moment is outdated, often ineffective, and dehumanizing.

What I really want is some kind of happy middle ground, some kind of achievable change we can make to the system to improve student's experience during school. How are we meant to do that? Frankly, I'm not sure. I have my ideas, but my own personal school experience isn't enough to qualify me to make sweeping changes to the entire education system. On the other hand, we haven't made a considerable change to education techniques in at least a century, aside from possibly integrating computers and technology into teaching practices (which really doesn't address the kind of issues I'm referring to). We should at least be willing to try some new changes, see if they work, and try something else if they don't.

 

[Cresselia~~]

I've been to schools in both Asia and Europe, which were very different, but still have some same problems.

I think the main problem with school is, they are trying to make everyone the same, whilst everyone is significantly different.
For example, schools worldwide fit everyone into classes of different subjects by age group.
But in reality, people develop in different paces in different subjects.

Some Asian countries don't even allow academic acceleration, and students who develop quickly in certain subjects can become very very bored in lessons, whilst students who develop slowly in certain subjects can feel very lost.
Also, in many Asian countries, if you fail a certain subject, you have to re-do the entire year again-- making you older than everyone else in the class. This is very embarrassing.

However, even with academic acceleration, you are expected to advance one year in all subjects, instead of only 1 or 2 subjects that you are gifted in.
Very few countries allow academic acceleration in selected subjects instead of all subjects.

My point is, everyone has different talents, and developing slower in a certain subject doesn't mean you are stupid. Besides, it is perfectly normal to be weaker at certain subjects, or subjects you simply don't show interest in.
You can't expect everyone to be all-rounders.

It would have been much better if people can just take each subject according to their level, instead of classified into age groups at all.
And make each subject independent .
Like ideally, for example, you can take Level 3 science, Level 4 maths, Level 1 language all in the same year.

Or even better, make home-schooling legal.
Home-schooling is not legal in every country, and it makes things really bad.
Everyone learns better in different ways.

I think people learn better by watching Youtube channels they like more than listening to a teacher (especially the underpaid and under-qualified ones).

 

[jalmont]

In the vast majority of cases, learning scientific method is much more useful than scientific content, for example. You only use science content (stuff like electron shells, the kingdoms of life, etcetera) if you plan on continuing science studies during tertiary education, and most people don't. Even the people who do aren't always taught correctly because universities don't actually have a say in school content, and often end up having to re-teach students the stuff they thought they knew.

Learning how to acquire useful evidence, how to avoid logical fallacies, how to separate what you believe from what you can prove - these are just a couple of examples of skills that are part of the scientific method that are useful in everyday life, but that are generally completely ignored in favour of teaching content.

This is also relevant to subjects like math and history. Most people don't need to know much more math than can be taught in primary schools, and yet math was compulsory (where I am, anyway) up until year 11. We learned very basic calculus before dropping math was an option, and the vast majority of people are never going to use that knowledge again. History I could actually see being useful if it focused less on dates and names and events, and more on culture and the impact those events had on society, but at least where I am it wasn't usually taught that way.

In response to 'A critical thinking class?', I think it would absolutely be reasonable to supplement science classes with scientific theory classes (emphasis on supplement rather than replace). The kinds of content that I think tend to become irrelevant to most people are still necessary, I just think we should focus a lot less on them and more on giving kids the skills they need to be prepared to life after school. The scientific theory class would aim to teach the skills I mentioned above, among others. Critical thinking would certainly be included.

Also, just in case it seems like I'm trying to shit on science/math, I'm actually studying physics and mathematics at university this year; but I can recognise that my personal opinion about how interesting science and math are isn't shared by most.

I still don't really understand what your suggestion is. I thought at first you were trying to say that we should replace what schools are currently teaching with a different curriculum, but it sounds to me like you're simply suggesting that there should be more of a focus on "critical thinking" or "scientific theory" instead of pure "content." Isn't the point of teaching content to build those critical thinking skills you're talking about? If I don't give a shit about content, I'm not going to give a shit about a critical thinking class either, whatever that might entail. The classes you give as irrelevant don't really amount to much. I would give you some level of math (I think mandatory statistics would be good given how relevant stats are in understanding today's world) as being unnecessary, history not so much. History is extremely important in understanding how the state of the world is shaped by actions in the past. Certainly, I do think a greater focus on current events would be good, but I don't think it's fair to say that it's irrelevant. I have always thought that the goal of pre-college education is to provide the basics of a subject so that students can figure out what they are interested in, from which a college education builds upon.

It seems to be your overall problem is how things are taught, not necessarily what is taught. I would argue that the content you regard as not important is actually quite important in building the skills that you suggest are important.

The difficulty with education is how do you quantify student success when the definition of "success" is so vague and broad? It's hardly unsurprising that tests have filled that void, as otherwise, how can you get an accurate gauge of if a school is doing well, or not so well? How can you tell the difference between a good teacher and a bad teacher, if not test results? I think that's a large part why it feels like there's such a large focus on results because what other way do we really have to compare otherwise? A traditional business is relatively straightforward and it's easier to quantify is someone is a success or not. Education not so much.

 

[MKL122788]

As a high school math teacher(I teach dual credit Algebra and Trig as well as regular Senior Math), I tend to believe that it isn't the high school math curriculum is regurgitated previous math classes so much as the "core" college classes that everyone has to take are regurgitated high school classes. I learned very little from my core classes in college.

I don't know 100% about other classes, but I always felt as a student that history class was the same 3-4 classes over and over again for 12 years. Geography, State History, US History, World History, repeat. It was terrible. In 12th grade, at least you get government and economics.

Mostly, I try to explain to students who don't want to do the work that day because they don't think they will use it in every day life that doing math isn't necessarily about math itself. Its about, essentially, seeing a blueprint for success, being able to adapt it to yourself/your viewpoint, and being able to be successful in whatever it is you are trying to succeed at. Furthermore, that every job you will ever do has at least some stuff you don't want to do, and training yourself to have the discipline to do it when you have to is a big deal in life in general.

As a teacher of seniors, I often get frustrated when my students come to me without the pre-requisite skills they need to be successful. If a student was never held accountable in his or her middle school math class and never acquired or learned the skills to be successful in Algebra, leading to their Algebra teacher relinquishing responsibility for that students performance and passing them, leading to a snowball effect and suddenly they are in my classroom, I find myself incredibly frustrated and trying to figure out how I can bridge such a colossal gap.

I believe I can say this with near certainty, teaching gets harder every year. With more access to technology and instant gratification, students have worse mental math skills, shorter attention spans than ever before, and horrendous memories. My students can literally take a picture of a problem that is homework and send it to an app which will solve it for them. They put things like 2 times 4 into the calculator. They don't remember anything about the day before because they can store it in technology if they think it is important. Very few, if any, have the quadratic formula memorized because it is always given to them on formula sheets. They complain that 4 step problems are too long and want to use the test review on every test.

As far as the Finnish school system goes, most of the teachers there have acknowledged that you could drop them into our schools and they wouldn't really fare better than a good teacher here. Education is treated as a priority there.

The reason the school system is losing ground is that we live in a society where, on the whole, being a teacher isn't respected and education in general is not considered a huge priority. The budget for the whole year for my math department this year was 500 dollars. Great, we can replace 5 whole calculators or replace none and maybe have enough batteries to replace the ones getting low.

And the worst part? With Betsy Devos leading the direction of education in this country, it will only get much, much worse. That woman believes schools should become for profit and wants to pour money into private religion based schools as opposed to public education. She believe there are problems, but she never went to, sent her kids to, or even stepped foot in a public high school. For crying out loud, during her questioning, she had to confirm what they meant when they asked her about growth versus proficiency.

Anyway, sorry if this became rant-y.