There's only one evolutionary line each with Wonder Guard, Pure Power, and Imposter, so shouldn't they be among the Pokémon that can't be inherited from? As it stands now, those abilities are banned outright, even on the Pokémon that normally get them, which is an understandable simplification for an ability like Speed Boost, but if Water Bubble is going to be banned differently, then they should be too. (Obviously, the other consistent choice is to just ban Water Bubble and only use donor bans where movepools are involved)
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Metagame Inheritance
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Then why not ban Dynamic Punch and Chatter? The mechanics of the moves are the source of it's brokeness, not what it inherit from. No need to pointlessly ban three evolutionary line (Golurk, Machamp, Chatot) because by doing so, you're nerfing many mons pointlessly because many of the mons benefit from those mons (especially Chatot's).
Besides, we banned Abilities anyway instead of donors, so why not moves?
Besides, we banned Abilities anyway instead of donors, so why not moves?
This is a fair point. I think I'd prefer to wrap up everything into the donor clause (that is what introduces new elements, so that is how they should be removed), but want a chance to get to a comp before confirming that.
Donors
Abilities: Sturdy, Contrary, Gluttony
Attacks: Earth Power, Earthquake, Knock Off, Sludge Bomb, Sludge Wave, Stone Edge
Other moves: Infestation, Final Gambit, Encore, Shell Smash, Stealth Rock, Sticky Web
Purpose: While Shuckle's attacking movepool is small, it has several generally useful moves. It's more notable for its support movepool, with two hazards, Shell Smash if that's your style, as well as several interesting disruptive options.
Abilities: Drought, Shell Armor, White Smoke
Attacks: Earth Power, Eruption, Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Lava Plume, Sludge Bomb, Solar Beam
Other moves: Shell Smash, Stealth Rock, Will-O-Wisp
Purpose: Drought+Shell Smash-powered Eruptions and Fire Blasts from powerful Fire-types, typically shit like Heatran and Chandelure.
Abilities: Magnet Pull, Galvanize, Sturdy
Attacks: Brick Break, Discharge, Earthquake, Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Focus Blast, Stone Edge, Volt Switch, Wild Charge, (Galvanized) Return, (Galvanized) Explosion, (Galvanized) Facade
Other moves: Autotomize/Rock Polish, Magnet Rise, Screech, Stealth Rock
Purpose: Alolan Golem's two abilities let it donate to two very different kinds of Pokemon. The first, Magnet Pull, lets the inheritor use its fantastic movepool to trap and remove almost any conceivable Steel-type (except Ghost/Steels). The second, Galvanize, enables powerful Electric-type physical attackers, and may be preferred on Stealth Rock leads for its high-powered Explosions.
Abilities: Hyper Cutter, Sand Veil, Poison Heal
Attacks: Aqua Tail, Brick Break, Dark Pulse, Earth Power, Earthquake, Iron Tail, Knock Off, Poison Jab, Rock Slide, Sludge Bomb, Stone Edge, U-turn
Other moves: Agility/Rock Polish, Baton Pass, Roost, Stealth Rock, Swords Dance, Tailwind, Taunt
Purpose: Anything is better with Poison Heal. Offensive inheritors typically run Swords Dance sets with 2-3 attacks + a status move of their choice, using PH for longevity and status immunity; defensive inheritors use it to stay healthy and offset chip damage, taking advantage of its support movepool to fit the team's needs. Speed passing is also an option.
Abilities: Guts, Sand Veil
Attacks: Crunch, Earthquake, Iron Head, Outrage, Stone Edge, Superpower
Other moves: Dragon Dance, Rock Polish, Taunt
Purpose: Larvitar is notable for its conjunction of Dragon Dance and the criminally underrated Guts, alongside a stable of powerful attacks. Its inheritors are setup sweepers that boost in the face of WoW and Scald users, using the Guts boost to muscle past Unaware users.
Abilities: Synchronize, Early Bird, Magic Bounce
Attacks: Air Slash, Dazzling Gleam, Drill Peck, Foul Play, Giga Drain, Heat Wave, Psychic, Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Stored Power, Sucker Punch, U-Turn, Zen Headbutt
Other moves: Calm Mind, Haze, Light Screen, Psycho Shift, Reflect, Roost, Tailwind, Thunder Wave, Trick Room, Wish
Purpose: Now that Mega-evolutions cannot donate, Xatu and Espeon are the only usable Magic Bouncers, whose utility I hope I don't need to elaborate upon. Of the two, Xatu is notable mostly for its more expansive attacking movepool, U-turn, and utility options. Sadly, Baton Pass and Defog are incompatible with Magic Bounce.
Abilities: Aura Break,Power Construct
Attacks: Core Enforcer, Dragon Tail, Extreme Speed, Outrage, Thousand Arrows, Thousand Waves
Other moves: Coil, Dragon Dance, Glare.
Purpose: Clicking Thousand Arrows, which is possibly the most spammable move in the game thanks to its disregard of Levitate and Flying-types. It has two excellent setup options in Coil and Dragon Dance, at least one of which should be used. It can easily run a mono-attacking set, giving it a lot of flexibility in its remaining moveslots.
Abilities: Fluffy, Klutz, Unnerve
Attacks: Dragon Claw, Earthquake, Focus Blast, Hammer Arm, Ice Punch, Rock Slide, Shadow Claw, Superpower, Thunder Punch
Other moves: Bulk Up, Pain Split, Roar, Swords Dance, Taunt
Purpose: Eat physical hits, attack back. With Fluffy halving damage from contact moves (at the cost of taking 2x from Fire moves), Fluffy users can be very durable while they set up Bulk Up or Swords Dance to use in conjunction with its expansive physical movepool. A defensive set with Pain Split is, I suppose, possible.
Abilities: Unaware, Klutz, Simple
Attacks: Air Slash, Energy Ball, Giga Drain, Gyro Ball, Heat Wave, Knock Off, Psychic, Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Stored Power, Super Fang, U-Turn, Zen Headbutt
Other moves: Calm Mind, Light Screen, Reflect, Roost, Tailwind, Taunt, Thunder Wave, Trick, Trick Room
Purpose: Swoobat can either function as a potent Unaware wall or as a Simple setup sweeper. The former will typically run Roost, 1-2 STABs, potentially U-Turn/Knock Off, and possibly a status move; the latter will either be an offensive set with Calm Mind, Stored Power, and 1-2 other attacks, or a bulky setup set with Calm Mind, Roost, a STAB, and either Stored Power or a status move. Regardless, Swoobat sets can be deadly and fantastically useful.
Abilities: Contrary, Suction Cups, Infiltrator
Attacks: Knock Off, Psycho Cut, Rock Slide, Superpower
Other moves: Switcheroo, Topsy-Turvy, Trick Room
Purpose: Contrary Superpower is an accurate 120BP Fighting-type move that raises Attack and Defense by one stage each. Pokemon inheriting from Malamar are powerful Fighting-types that click Superpower when they can and Knock Off when they can't, and find something else to do with those last two moveslots.
Abilities: Steadfast, Inner Focus, Justified
Attacks: Blaze Kick, Bullet Punch, Close Combat, Crunch, Earthquake, Extreme Speed, Ice Punch, Iron Tail, Poison Jab, Thunder Punch
Other moves: Bulk Up, Swords Dance
Purpose: Lucario's draw is to donate Swords Dance + Extreme Speed to Mega Pinsir and Mega Glalie. There are other Espeed donors, but none with SD. Lucario backs up this deadly combo with a fantastic physical movepool. It has Nasty Plot and a good special movepool too, but Mew is better on that front.
Abilities: Intimidate, Unnerve
Attacks: Air Slash, Bug Buzz, Energy Ball, Giga Drain, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Scald, Shadow Ball, U-Turn
Other moves: Defog, Haze, Quiver Dance, Roost, Sticky Web, Stun Spore
Purpose: Masquerain is the most generally useful Quiver Dance donor, with Intimidate easing setup, Roost providing longevity, and a sufficient special movepool for the task. More defensively-inclined Intimidate users will also appreciate access to Defog and Sticky Web.
Abilities: Sturdy, Contrary, Gluttony
Attacks: Earth Power, Earthquake, Knock Off, Sludge Bomb, Sludge Wave, Stone Edge
Other moves: Infestation, Final Gambit, Encore, Shell Smash, Stealth Rock, Sticky Web
Purpose: While Shuckle's attacking movepool is small, it has several generally useful moves. It's more notable for its support movepool, with two hazards, Shell Smash if that's your style, as well as several interesting disruptive options.
Abilities: Drought, Shell Armor, White Smoke
Attacks: Earth Power, Eruption, Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Lava Plume, Sludge Bomb, Solar Beam
Other moves: Shell Smash, Stealth Rock, Will-O-Wisp
Purpose: Drought+Shell Smash-powered Eruptions and Fire Blasts from powerful Fire-types, typically shit like Heatran and Chandelure.
Abilities: Magnet Pull, Galvanize, Sturdy
Attacks: Brick Break, Discharge, Earthquake, Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Focus Blast, Stone Edge, Volt Switch, Wild Charge, (Galvanized) Return, (Galvanized) Explosion, (Galvanized) Facade
Other moves: Autotomize/Rock Polish, Magnet Rise, Screech, Stealth Rock
Purpose: Alolan Golem's two abilities let it donate to two very different kinds of Pokemon. The first, Magnet Pull, lets the inheritor use its fantastic movepool to trap and remove almost any conceivable Steel-type (except Ghost/Steels). The second, Galvanize, enables powerful Electric-type physical attackers, and may be preferred on Stealth Rock leads for its high-powered Explosions.
Abilities: Hyper Cutter, Sand Veil, Poison Heal
Attacks: Aqua Tail, Brick Break, Dark Pulse, Earth Power, Earthquake, Iron Tail, Knock Off, Poison Jab, Rock Slide, Sludge Bomb, Stone Edge, U-turn
Other moves: Agility/Rock Polish, Baton Pass, Roost, Stealth Rock, Swords Dance, Tailwind, Taunt
Purpose: Anything is better with Poison Heal. Offensive inheritors typically run Swords Dance sets with 2-3 attacks + a status move of their choice, using PH for longevity and status immunity; defensive inheritors use it to stay healthy and offset chip damage, taking advantage of its support movepool to fit the team's needs. Speed passing is also an option.
Abilities: Guts, Sand Veil
Attacks: Crunch, Earthquake, Iron Head, Outrage, Stone Edge, Superpower
Other moves: Dragon Dance, Rock Polish, Taunt
Purpose: Larvitar is notable for its conjunction of Dragon Dance and the criminally underrated Guts, alongside a stable of powerful attacks. Its inheritors are setup sweepers that boost in the face of WoW and Scald users, using the Guts boost to muscle past Unaware users.
Abilities: Synchronize, Early Bird, Magic Bounce
Attacks: Air Slash, Dazzling Gleam, Drill Peck, Foul Play, Giga Drain, Heat Wave, Psychic, Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Stored Power, Sucker Punch, U-Turn, Zen Headbutt
Other moves: Calm Mind, Haze, Light Screen, Psycho Shift, Reflect, Roost, Tailwind, Thunder Wave, Trick Room, Wish
Purpose: Now that Mega-evolutions cannot donate, Xatu and Espeon are the only usable Magic Bouncers, whose utility I hope I don't need to elaborate upon. Of the two, Xatu is notable mostly for its more expansive attacking movepool, U-turn, and utility options. Sadly, Baton Pass and Defog are incompatible with Magic Bounce.
Abilities: Aura Break,
Attacks: Core Enforcer, Dragon Tail, Extreme Speed, Outrage, Thousand Arrows, Thousand Waves
Other moves: Coil, Dragon Dance, Glare.
Purpose: Clicking Thousand Arrows, which is possibly the most spammable move in the game thanks to its disregard of Levitate and Flying-types. It has two excellent setup options in Coil and Dragon Dance, at least one of which should be used. It can easily run a mono-attacking set, giving it a lot of flexibility in its remaining moveslots.
Abilities: Fluffy, Klutz, Unnerve
Attacks: Dragon Claw, Earthquake, Focus Blast, Hammer Arm, Ice Punch, Rock Slide, Shadow Claw, Superpower, Thunder Punch
Other moves: Bulk Up, Pain Split, Roar, Swords Dance, Taunt
Purpose: Eat physical hits, attack back. With Fluffy halving damage from contact moves (at the cost of taking 2x from Fire moves), Fluffy users can be very durable while they set up Bulk Up or Swords Dance to use in conjunction with its expansive physical movepool. A defensive set with Pain Split is, I suppose, possible.
Abilities: Unaware, Klutz, Simple
Attacks: Air Slash, Energy Ball, Giga Drain, Gyro Ball, Heat Wave, Knock Off, Psychic, Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Stored Power, Super Fang, U-Turn, Zen Headbutt
Other moves: Calm Mind, Light Screen, Reflect, Roost, Tailwind, Taunt, Thunder Wave, Trick, Trick Room
Purpose: Swoobat can either function as a potent Unaware wall or as a Simple setup sweeper. The former will typically run Roost, 1-2 STABs, potentially U-Turn/Knock Off, and possibly a status move; the latter will either be an offensive set with Calm Mind, Stored Power, and 1-2 other attacks, or a bulky setup set with Calm Mind, Roost, a STAB, and either Stored Power or a status move. Regardless, Swoobat sets can be deadly and fantastically useful.
Abilities: Contrary, Suction Cups, Infiltrator
Attacks: Knock Off, Psycho Cut, Rock Slide, Superpower
Other moves: Switcheroo, Topsy-Turvy, Trick Room
Purpose: Contrary Superpower is an accurate 120BP Fighting-type move that raises Attack and Defense by one stage each. Pokemon inheriting from Malamar are powerful Fighting-types that click Superpower when they can and Knock Off when they can't, and find something else to do with those last two moveslots.
Abilities: Steadfast, Inner Focus, Justified
Attacks: Blaze Kick, Bullet Punch, Close Combat, Crunch, Earthquake, Extreme Speed, Ice Punch, Iron Tail, Poison Jab, Thunder Punch
Other moves: Bulk Up, Swords Dance
Purpose: Lucario's draw is to donate Swords Dance + Extreme Speed to Mega Pinsir and Mega Glalie. There are other Espeed donors, but none with SD. Lucario backs up this deadly combo with a fantastic physical movepool. It has Nasty Plot and a good special movepool too, but Mew is better on that front.
Abilities: Intimidate, Unnerve
Attacks: Air Slash, Bug Buzz, Energy Ball, Giga Drain, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Scald, Shadow Ball, U-Turn
Other moves: Defog, Haze, Quiver Dance, Roost, Sticky Web, Stun Spore
Purpose: Masquerain is the most generally useful Quiver Dance donor, with Intimidate easing setup, Roost providing longevity, and a sufficient special movepool for the task. More defensively-inclined Intimidate users will also appreciate access to Defog and Sticky Web.
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Can you do this except with no spoiler tags and with small icons instead of big huge pictures... sorry its really annoying me atm ._.Donors
Abilities: Sturdy, Contrary, Gluttony
Attacks: Earth Power, Earthquake, Knock Off, Sludge Bomb, Sludge Wave, Stone Edge
Other moves: Infestation, Final Gambit, Encore, Shell Smash, Stealth Rock, Sticky Web
Purpose: While Shuckle's attacking movepool is small, it has several generally useful moves. It's more notable for its support movepool, with two hazards, Shell Smash if that's your style, as well as several interesting disruptive options.
Abilities: Drought, Shell Armor, White Smoke
Attacks: Earth Power, Eruption, Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Lava Plume, Sludge Bomb, Solar Beam
Other moves: Shell Smash, Stealth Rock, Will-O-Wisp
Purpose: Drought+Shell Smash-powered Eruptions and Fire Blasts from powerful Fire-types, typically shit like Heatran and Chandelure.
Abilities: Magnet Pull, Galvanize, Sturdy
Attacks: Brick Break, Discharge, Earthquake, Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Focus Blast, Stone Edge, Volt Switch, Wild Charge, (Galvanized) Return, (Galvanized) Explosion, (Galvanized) Facade
Other moves: Autotomize/Rock Polish, Magnet Rise, Screech, Stealth Rock
Purpose: Alolan Golem's two abilities let it donate to two very different kinds of Pokemon. The first, Magnet Pull, lets the inheritor use its fantastic movepool to trap and remove almost any conceivable Steel-type (except Ghost/Steels). The second, Galvanize, enables powerful Electric-type physical attackers, and may be preferred on Stealth Rock leads for its high-powered Explosions.
Abilities: Hyper Cutter, Sand Veil, Poison Heal
Attacks: Aqua Tail, Brick Break, Dark Pulse, Earth Power, Earthquake, Iron Tail, Knock Off, Poison Jab, Rock Slide, Sludge Bomb, Stone Edge, U-turn
Other moves: Agility/Rock Polish, Baton Pass, Roost, Stealth Rock, Swords Dance, Tailwind, Taunt
Purpose: Anything is better with Poison Heal. Offensive inheritors typically run Swords Dance sets with 2-3 attacks + a status move of their choice, using PH for longevity and status immunity; defensive inheritors use it to stay healthy and offset chip damage, taking advantage of its support movepool to fit the team's needs. Speed passing is also an option.
Abilities: Guts, Sand Veil
Attacks: Crunch, Earthquake, Iron Head, Outrage, Stone Edge, Superpower
Other moves: Dragon Dance, Rock Polish, Taunt
Purpose: Larvitar is notable for its conjunction of Dragon Dance and the criminally underrated Guts, alongside a stable of powerful attacks. Its inheritors are setup sweepers that boost in the face of WoW and Scald users, using the Guts boost to muscle past Unaware users.
Abilities: Synchronize, Early Bird, Magic Bounce
Attacks: Air Slash, Dazzling Gleam, Drill Peck, Foul Play, Giga Drain, Heat Wave, Psychic, Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Sucker Punch, U-Turn, Zen Headbutt
Other moves: Calm Mind, Haze, Light Screen, Psycho Shift, Reflect, Roost, Stored Power Tailwind, Thunder Wave, Trick Room, Wish
Purpose: Now that Mega-evolutions cannot donate, Xatu and Espeon are the only usable Magic Bouncers, whose utility I hope I don't need to elaborate upon. Of the two, Xatu is notable mostly for its more expansive attacking movepool, U-turn, and utility options. Sadly, Baton Pass and Defog are incompatible with Magic Bounce.
Abilities: Aura Break,Power Construct
Attacks: Core Enforcer, Dragon Tail, Extreme Speed, Outrage, Thousand Arrows, Thousand Waves
Other moves: Coil, Dragon Dance, Glare.
Purpose: Clicking Thousand Arrows, which is possibly the most spammable move in the game thanks to its disregard of Levitate and Flying-types. It has two excellent setup options in Coil and Dragon Dance, at least one of which should be used. It can easily run a mono-attacking set, giving it a lot of flexibility in its remaining moveslots.
Abilities: Fluffy, Klutz, Unnerve
Attacks: Dragon Claw, Earthquake, Focus Blast, Hammer Arm, Ice Punch, Rock Slide, Shadow Claw, Superpower, Thunder Punch
Other moves: Bulk Up, Pain Split, Roar, Swords Dance, Taunt
Purpose: Eat physical hits, attack back. With Fluffy halving damage from contact moves (at the cost of taking 2x from Fire moves), Fluffy users can be very durable while they set up Bulk Up or Swords Dance to use in conjunction with its expansive physical movepool. A defensive set with Pain Split is, I suppose, possible.
Abilities: Unaware, Klutz, Simple
Attacks: Air Slash, Energy Ball, Giga Drain, Gyro Ball, Heat Wave, Knock Off, Psychic, Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Stored Power, Super Fang, U-Turn, Zen Headbutt
Other moves: Calm Mind, Light Screen, Reflect, Roost, Tailwind, Taunt, Thunder Wave, Trick, Trick Room
Purpose: Swoobat can either function as a potent Unaware wall or as a Simple setup sweeper. The former will typically run Roost, 1-2 STABs, potentially U-Turn/Knock Off, and possibly a status move; the latter will either be an offensive set with Calm Mind, Stored Power, and 1-2 other attacks, or a bulky setup set with Calm Mind, Roost, a STAB, and either Stored Power or a status move. Regardless, Swoobat sets can be deadly and fantastically useful.
Abilities: Contrary, Suction Cups, Infiltrator
Attacks: Knock Off, Psycho Cut, Rock Slide, Superpower
Other moves: Switcheroo, Topsy-Turvy, Trick Room
Purpose: Contrary Superpower is an accurate 120BP Fighting-type move that raises Attack and Defense by one stage each. Pokemon inheriting from Malamar are powerful Fighting-types that click Superpower when they can and Knock Off when they can't, and find something else to do with those last two moveslots.
Abilities: Steadfast, Inner Focus, Justified
Attacks: Blaze Kick, Bullet Punch, Close Combat, Crunch, Earthquake, Extreme Speed, Ice Punch, Iron Tail, Poison Jab, Thunder Punch
Other moves: Bulk Up, Swords Dance
Purpose: Lucario's draw is to donate Swords Dance + Extreme Speed to Mega Pinsir and Mega Glalie. There are other Espeed donors, but none with SD. Lucario backs up this deadly combo with a fantastic physical movepool. It has Nasty Plot and a good special movepool too, but Mew is better on that front.
Abilities: Intimidate, Unnerve
Attacks: Air Slash, Bug Buzz, Energy Ball, Giga Drain, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Scald, Shadow Ball, U-Turn
Other moves: Defog, Haze, Quiver Dance, Roost, Sticky Web, Stun Spore
Purpose: Masquerain is the most generally useful Quiver Dance donor, with Intimidate easing setup, Roost providing longevity, and a sufficient special movepool for the task. More defensively-inclined Intimidate users will also appreciate access to Defog and Sticky Web.
I'm transcribing it (as well as other people's contributions) into a google doc so it is easy to navigate/view/search.
Why is the evolutionary line clause a thing? Maybe this is just my bias against any clauses of this sort, but I don't really see how it gets around the species clause. Prevolutions almost always have worse movepools than their evolutions, and since species clause is a thing the two pokemon will still differ in stats and/or typing in addition to move differences. To give an example of why I feel this is relevant: Slowking and Slowbro. They have the same typing, identical abilities, nearly identical movepools, similar stats spreads... and can be used on the same team. You can also use Chansey+Blissey, Porygon2 and PorygonZ, or even more similarly Type Null and Normal Silvally. Maybe there will be strategies that end up being broken, but I feel like we should just be banning any broken strategies that arise rather than maybe bypassing some with an arbitrary evolutionary clause; we should just stick with a species donor clause, or none.
I'm somewhat curious about the chatter+Dynamic Punch decision; what makes them above the arbitrary cutoff?It seems to be a certain damage cutoff+a certain hax cutoff, as both Confuse Ray and Nuzzle are legal, but this still seems inconsistant; ie, serene grace iron head is legal, and heck Iron Head in general because it's a 30% vs 33-or-30% (since we don't have a large enough sample size to know the exact value) chance. Could you explain what made them banworthy besides "uncompetative"?
That would go against the guiding idea of moving closer to a standard tier:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/banning-dynamicpunch.3573383/
Anyway, moving aside from policy, here's some stuff I've liked:
Kommo-o @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge
Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Milk Drink
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Hammer Arm / Toxic
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge
Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Milk Drink
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Hammer Arm / Toxic
These two together allow stall to actually check Mega Gyarados; Kommo-o takes on Shell Smash sets, while Ferrothorn takes on Azumarill inherits. They also pair well for other reasons; Kommo-o can take on Fire-type pokemon for Ferrothorn, while Ferrothorn takes on Ice- and Fairy-type. Since Kommo-o can pivot and has an excellent dragon typing, it can also form a regenerator core with many other Pokemon.
Magearna @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Heat Wave
- Hurricane
or
Magearna @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- Flamethrower
- Knock Off
- Thunderbolt
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Heat Wave
- Hurricane
or
Magearna @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- Flamethrower
- Knock Off
- Thunderbolt
The first has gives uturn and usable special attacks, which basically gives magearna everything it wanted extra. The second includes a viable STAB move and better special attacks. I've been leaning towards the first on my current team, but both can be very effective.
Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Roost
- Defog
- Quiver Dance / Whirlwind.
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Roost
- Defog
- Quiver Dance / Whirlwind.
You thought this was bad already? Well, think again. It has an excellent fairy typing over Suicune, which lets it take on things like Keldeo and Mega Gyarados better, while it serves as team support and a win condition for stall. Intimidate, scald, defog, recovery, quiver dance... the only think that's lacking is Moonblast,and you' have to give up one of these excellent choices for that so it isn't that much of a loss.
All right back in business! I agree with Why Nerdy, I'd rather ban Dynamicpunch and Chatter (and maybe Zap Cannon too, although that's not really a problem until mega Pidgeot comes out) then inheriting from the mons themselves, especially when Chatot has a niche as a double dancing Boomburster with awful abilities.
anyway I've been playing around with Trick Room memes, and here are some of the things I've been using. None of them are great, as trick room itself isn't great, but they're fun.
@
Snorlax @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Explosion
- Knock Off
- Return
- Trick Room
Slow strong Snorlax. I did /ds Magic Guard, Trick Room, Explosion, not actually expecting to get anything, but I forgot about our one and only fetus bear. This set is designed to be used as a midgame Trick Room setter, where you come in after Trick Room falls the first time, live a hit thanks to your sash and Magic Guard meaning you don't care about hazards, set Trick Room, then you can choose to try to sweep or go boom and poke a hole in their team and gain momentum. I find that Trick Room teams tend to have the hardest time in the mid to late game when Trick Room has fallen down and you need to lose precious momentum to set it back up. This set is designed to counteract that failing.
@
Rhyperior @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Head Smash
- Poison Jab
- Stealth Rock
Woops another Sash mon! This one is my lead usually, designed to set Trick Room, rocks if I deem it necessary, and then Head Smash into oblivion. Nihilego's physical coverage is really, and I mean really bad, so I went with Poison Jab, because it hits something somewhere. I originally had screens and Light Clay but that took too much time to set up. This set is vulnerable to Taunt, so Mental Herb is an option.
@
Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room / Drain Punch / Rock Slide / Ice Punch / Thunder Punch
- Superpower
- Baton Pass And this is why playing in custom battle is problematic. It's illegal. Thanks MacChaeger. Run one of the above options instead.
- Sucker Punch
What gets Contrary, Superpower, Baton Pass, and Sucker Punch? Spinda! Conkeldurr is the obvious inheritor of Spinda, being strong, slow, and bulky. Whether you run Trick Room or another move in the first slot is based on how dependent you want to be on team support. Drain Punch will give you a lot more longevity, while the rest of the moves provide coverage.
Akumeoy I'd argue that Spinda is in fact better than Malamar in general as a donor. It gets better coverage, Baton Pass, Fake Out, Sucker Punch, and weird stuff like Rapid Spin for team support.
@
Tapu Koko @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Cheek Pouch
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Recycle
- Nuzzle
- Volt Switch / U-Turn
- Play Rough / Thunderpunch / Wild Charge
Well I obviously didn't run Nuzzle on the Trick Room team but w/e. The fun here is Sitrus Berry + Cheek Pouch, which gives a total of 7/12 of your health back every time you eat a berry. Add Recycle and you can do this over and over again. Nuzzle slows the opposing team while Volt Switch lets you pivot and Play Rough is the longed for physical Fairy Stab.
anyway I've been playing around with Trick Room memes, and here are some of the things I've been using. None of them are great, as trick room itself isn't great, but they're fun.
Snorlax @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Explosion
- Knock Off
- Return
- Trick Room
Slow strong Snorlax. I did /ds Magic Guard, Trick Room, Explosion, not actually expecting to get anything, but I forgot about our one and only fetus bear. This set is designed to be used as a midgame Trick Room setter, where you come in after Trick Room falls the first time, live a hit thanks to your sash and Magic Guard meaning you don't care about hazards, set Trick Room, then you can choose to try to sweep or go boom and poke a hole in their team and gain momentum. I find that Trick Room teams tend to have the hardest time in the mid to late game when Trick Room has fallen down and you need to lose precious momentum to set it back up. This set is designed to counteract that failing.
Rhyperior @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Head Smash
- Poison Jab
- Stealth Rock
Woops another Sash mon! This one is my lead usually, designed to set Trick Room, rocks if I deem it necessary, and then Head Smash into oblivion. Nihilego's physical coverage is really, and I mean really bad, so I went with Poison Jab, because it hits something somewhere. I originally had screens and Light Clay but that took too much time to set up. This set is vulnerable to Taunt, so Mental Herb is an option.
Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room / Drain Punch / Rock Slide / Ice Punch / Thunder Punch
- Superpower
- Sucker Punch
What gets Contrary, Superpower, Baton Pass, and Sucker Punch? Spinda! Conkeldurr is the obvious inheritor of Spinda, being strong, slow, and bulky. Whether you run Trick Room or another move in the first slot is based on how dependent you want to be on team support. Drain Punch will give you a lot more longevity, while the rest of the moves provide coverage.
Akumeoy I'd argue that Spinda is in fact better than Malamar in general as a donor. It gets better coverage, Baton Pass, Fake Out, Sucker Punch, and weird stuff like Rapid Spin for team support.
Tapu Koko @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Cheek Pouch
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Recycle
- Nuzzle
- Volt Switch / U-Turn
- Play Rough / Thunderpunch / Wild Charge
Well I obviously didn't run Nuzzle on the Trick Room team but w/e. The fun here is Sitrus Berry + Cheek Pouch, which gives a total of 7/12 of your health back every time you eat a berry. Add Recycle and you can do this over and over again. Nuzzle slows the opposing team while Volt Switch lets you pivot and Play Rough is the longed for physical Fairy Stab.
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Contrary and Baton Pass are incompatible on a normal Spinda, so if you actually tried this and it worked, that needs to be fixed.All right back in business! I agree with Why Nerdy, I'd rather ban Dynamicpunch and Chatter (and maybe Zap Cannon too, although that's not really a problem until mega Pidgeot comes out) then inheriting from the mons themselves, especially when Chatot has a niche as a double dancing Boombursterwith awful abilities.
anyway I've been playing around with Trick Room memes, and here are some of the things I've been using. None of them are great, as trick room itself isn't great, but they're fun.
@
Snorlax @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Explosion
- Knock Off
- Return
- Trick Room
Slow strong Snorlax. I did /ds Magic Guard, Trick Room, Explosion, not actually expecting to get anything, but I forgot about our one and only fetus bear. This set is designed to be used as a midgame Trick Room setter, where you come in after Trick Room falls the first time, live a hit thanks to your sash and Magic Guard meaning you don't care about hazards, set Trick Room, then you can choose to try to sweep or go boom and poke a hole in their team and gain momentum. I find that Trick Room teams tend to have the hardest time in the mid to late game when Trick Room has fallen down and you need to lose precious momentum to set it back up. This set is designed to counteract that failing.
@
Rhyperior @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Head Smash
- Poison Jab
- Stealth Rock
Woops another Sash mon! This one is my lead usually, designed to set Trick Room, rocks if I deem it necessary, and then Head Smash into oblivion. Nihilego's physical coverage is really, and I mean really bad, so I went with Poison Jab, because it hits something somewhere. I originally had screens and Light Clay but that took too much time to set up. This set is vulnerable to Taunt, so Mental Herb is an option.
@
Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room / Drain Punch / Rock Slide / Ice Punch / Thunder Punch
- Superpower
- Baton Pass
- Sucker Punch
What gets Contrary, Superpower, Baton Pass, and Sucker Punch? Spinda! Conkeldurr is the obvious inheritor of Spinda, being strong, slow, and bulky. Whether you run Trick Room or another move in the first slot is based on how dependent you want to be on team support. Drain Punch will give you a lot more longevity, while the rest of the moves provide coverage.
Akumeoy I'd argue that Spinda is in fact better than Malamar in general as a donor. It gets better coverage, Baton Pass, Fake Out, Sucker Punch, and weird stuff like Rapid Spin for team support.
@
Tapu Koko @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Cheek Pouch
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Recycle
- Nuzzle
- Volt Switch / U-Turn
- Play Rough / Thunderpunch / Wild Charge
Well I obviously didn't run Nuzzle on the Trick Room team but w/e. The fun here is Sitrus Berry + Cheek Pouch, which gives a total of 7/12 of your health back every time you eat a berry. Add Recycle and you can do this over and over again. Nuzzle slows the opposing team while Volt Switch lets you pivot and Play Rough is the longed for physical Fairy Stab.
Some sets I tried out:
Jellicent (Keldeo) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Trick / Energy ball
Water Spout hits really, really hard coming off Keldeo's Special Attack stat. And since it resists Stealth Rock, most of the time it has full health. Surf is the back up STAB for when your health gets too low to fire off Water Spouts. Ice Beam hits the Grass and Dragon-types that resist your STAB. Trick lets you cripple a would be wall; Energy Ball can be used to hit opposing Grass types. Water Absorb is chosen so that you can switch into a Water move aimed at a teammate and restore your health, thus keeping Water Spout powerful. A Choice Specs set is viable too for its mega power, but personally I prefer Scarf.
Heracross (Pheromosa) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Megahorn
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Facade / Stone Edge
Extremely fast and extremely powerful. Flame Orb triggers Guts, which handily bypasses Unaware. Megahorn and Close Combat are the STAB moves, 2HKOing anything that doesn't resist them once Guts has activated. Knock Off hits the Ghost types that resist your STABs and also removes troublesome items. Facade is just a strong attack in general. Stone Edge can be used to hit opposing Bug types and Flying types. You could also run Swords Dance, but Pheromosa's usually too frail to set up.
Jellicent (Keldeo) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Trick / Energy ball
Water Spout hits really, really hard coming off Keldeo's Special Attack stat. And since it resists Stealth Rock, most of the time it has full health. Surf is the back up STAB for when your health gets too low to fire off Water Spouts. Ice Beam hits the Grass and Dragon-types that resist your STAB. Trick lets you cripple a would be wall; Energy Ball can be used to hit opposing Grass types. Water Absorb is chosen so that you can switch into a Water move aimed at a teammate and restore your health, thus keeping Water Spout powerful. A Choice Specs set is viable too for its mega power, but personally I prefer Scarf.
Heracross (Pheromosa) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Megahorn
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Facade / Stone Edge
Extremely fast and extremely powerful. Flame Orb triggers Guts, which handily bypasses Unaware. Megahorn and Close Combat are the STAB moves, 2HKOing anything that doesn't resist them once Guts has activated. Knock Off hits the Ghost types that resist your STABs and also removes troublesome items. Facade is just a strong attack in general. Stone Edge can be used to hit opposing Bug types and Flying types. You could also run Swords Dance, but Pheromosa's usually too frail to set up.
ok, let's see if I can wrap up all this policy stuff in the first day. (not likely, I know...)
RE: Clarification of what I meant by the evolutionary line thing
The goal is to mimic the Species Clause from standard play, but with Donors. I think this is best done by adding pre-evo's because they can retain the general characteristics of their fully evolved counterparts, but with worse stats. The end goal is to encourage diversity (similar to the MnM mega stone limitation), not to ban broken things. The policy I had in mind is easiest to explain with examples:
You cannot Inherit from Slowbro and Slowpoke on the same team
You can Inherit from Slowbro and Slowking on the same team
You cannot Inherit from Rotom-Wash and Rotom-Mow on the same team
You can Inherit from Vaporeon and Jolteon on the same team
RE: Random Ability/Move bans
We're gonna shift all the existing ability/move bans to the Donor Clause. I'm a really big fan of banning things through a metagame's unique mechanic, unless it is globally broken.
The following things are no longer allowed to be Donors:
– Shedinja (Wonder Guard)
– Diggersby, Azumarill, and Medicham evolutionary lines (Huge Power and Pure Power)
– Ditto (Imposter)
– Trapinch, Dugtrio, and Diglett (Arena Trap) note: OU ban on Shadow Tag covers Wobbuffett and the Gothitelle evolutionary line
– Liepard, Meowstic, Purrloin (Assist + Prankster)
– Scolipede, Sharpedo, and Blaziken evolutionary lines (Speed Boost) If Ninjask or Yanmega prove to be broken we can add them
RE: Resources Document
Google Docs is awesome!
I started transcribing a bit this afternoon—obviously I didn't get very far. If you want to help out use the "Suggest Edits" feature to edit the document. I'll come through and curate the suggested edits on a regular basis.
Once that document gets bigger, ctrl+F (or cmd+F) is your friend. Use it to search for what you're looking for!
RE: Clarification of what I meant by the evolutionary line thing
The goal is to mimic the Species Clause from standard play, but with Donors. I think this is best done by adding pre-evo's because they can retain the general characteristics of their fully evolved counterparts, but with worse stats. The end goal is to encourage diversity (similar to the MnM mega stone limitation), not to ban broken things. The policy I had in mind is easiest to explain with examples:
You cannot Inherit from Slowbro and Slowpoke on the same team
You can Inherit from Slowbro and Slowking on the same team
You cannot Inherit from Rotom-Wash and Rotom-Mow on the same team
You can Inherit from Vaporeon and Jolteon on the same team
RE: Random Ability/Move bans
We're gonna shift all the existing ability/move bans to the Donor Clause. I'm a really big fan of banning things through a metagame's unique mechanic, unless it is globally broken.
The following things are no longer allowed to be Donors:
– Shedinja (Wonder Guard)
– Diggersby, Azumarill, and Medicham evolutionary lines (Huge Power and Pure Power)
– Ditto (Imposter)
– Trapinch, Dugtrio, and Diglett (Arena Trap) note: OU ban on Shadow Tag covers Wobbuffett and the Gothitelle evolutionary line
– Liepard, Meowstic, Purrloin (Assist + Prankster)
– Scolipede, Sharpedo, and Blaziken evolutionary lines (Speed Boost) If Ninjask or Yanmega prove to be broken we can add them
RE: Resources Document
Google Docs is awesome!
I started transcribing a bit this afternoon—obviously I didn't get very far. If you want to help out use the "Suggest Edits" feature to edit the document. I'll come through and curate the suggested edits on a regular basis.
Once that document gets bigger, ctrl+F (or cmd+F) is your friend. Use it to search for what you're looking for!
So to clarify, can you inherit from mega evolutions and Ubers? You didn't say anything about it.
Btw I also thought I'd mention that arguably one of the best Mega in gen6 inheritance, Mega medicham, is now unobtainable.
Btw I also thought I'd mention that arguably one of the best Mega in gen6 inheritance, Mega medicham, is now unobtainable.
you still can not inherit from them
Not sure if this has been thought of yet, but inheriting from Porygon-Z and using Z-Conversion seems pretty good! Here's a set that I think is Cray-Z:
Killer Duck 4.0 (Xurkitree) @ Normalium Z
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Conversion
Xurkitree has a pretty shallow movepool, but with its naturally gigantic 173 special attack stat and Porygon-Z's movepool, adaptability, and access to Z-Conversion, this thing is scary. With Conversion-Z, all of its stats (besides HP ofc) gets boosted by one level and you can change into plenty of different types with PZ's movepool, plus you get adaptability to make the STAB of your choice even stronger! Boltbeam combo is already great, but picking another type such as Psychic-type with psyshock to beat chansey, can be viable. Recover is a decent option as your bulk (which is around the same as PZ's) is boosted by a bit; it's not impressive but it can keep you alive a bit longer if needed. You can always replace it with another move if you need the coverage though. But obviously Xurkitree is not unstoppable! Strong priority users and special walls like Chansey will laugh at your ruined fun so it's best to clean them up before attempting a sweep.
Inheriting from Porygon-Z and utilizing Z-Conversion can also work on so many other special attackers, especially on bulkier ones, but Xurkitree with that 173 special attack stat is just bae.
Killer Duck 4.0 (Xurkitree) @ Normalium Z
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Conversion
Xurkitree has a pretty shallow movepool, but with its naturally gigantic 173 special attack stat and Porygon-Z's movepool, adaptability, and access to Z-Conversion, this thing is scary. With Conversion-Z, all of its stats (besides HP ofc) gets boosted by one level and you can change into plenty of different types with PZ's movepool, plus you get adaptability to make the STAB of your choice even stronger! Boltbeam combo is already great, but picking another type such as Psychic-type with psyshock to beat chansey, can be viable. Recover is a decent option as your bulk (which is around the same as PZ's) is boosted by a bit; it's not impressive but it can keep you alive a bit longer if needed. You can always replace it with another move if you need the coverage though. But obviously Xurkitree is not unstoppable! Strong priority users and special walls like Chansey will laugh at your ruined fun so it's best to clean them up before attempting a sweep.
Inheriting from Porygon-Z and utilizing Z-Conversion can also work on so many other special attackers, especially on bulkier ones, but Xurkitree with that 173 special attack stat is just bae.
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I don't really understand how moving ability/move over to the Donor Clause is beneficial compared to just banning the moves and abilities outright. I mean a lot of the pokemon banned from being donors are terrific at donating much more than the specific move or ability that they are being labelled under. Azumaril has two very cool abilities in Sap Sipper and Thick Fat, alongside surprisingly useful utility options and some powerful moves with access to priority and Belly Drum. Azumaril is of course a common donor to Mega Gyarados to boast what is arguably the best stall breaker in the tier if you are able to set it up without the Sitrus Berry. Chatot provides pokemon like Porygon-Z the combination of Double Dance + Boomburst. Machamp is sure to have some unique Guts sets, Liepard sure to have uniques Prankster sets, etc. Point is that you're taking away a bunch of viable and balanced things for what seems to be no reason other than "we're banning things through this unique mechanic because isn't it cool that we can ban things through this unique mechanic?" even though it is less efficient. There's nothing accomplished here that couldn't be accomplished by simply banning Assist, Dynamic Punch, Chatter, etc, other than unnecessarily crippling the meta. It's also more complicated this way, because where you could have just banned 1 thing in Assist, you've banned 3 things in Liepard, Meowstic and Purrloin. Why?
Yeah. Banning donors because it's a meta where donor is a basis isn't a good decision I think. A lot of things benefit from those donors you banned JUST because it has a broken Ability, move, etc. Why not ban those broken elements instead of ban the entire donor? There are WAY too many unnecessary nerfs just because of this "ban must be based on donors because it's Inheritance" thing. And banning Abilities and Moves aren't even a complex ban.
Riolu
Ablities: Prankster
Special: Aura Sphere, Focus Blast, Final Gambit, Vacuum Wave
Physical: Drain Punch, Blaze Kick, Earthquake, High Jump Kick, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Crunch, Dual Chop, Iron Tail, Return
Status: Copycat, Nasty Plot, Swords Dance, Bulk Up
Prankster + Copycat enables slower things to setup using the strong setup options provided, launch a +2 attack, and then get a +1 priority copycat version of that attack immediately after ward. This isn't as effective as last gen, because of dazzling/psychic terrain and triage, but its nonetheless effective for what otherwise seems like a gimmick.
You can get things like:
Beware @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- High Jump Kick
- Return
- Copycat
Rhyperior @ Earth Plate
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Copycat
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On another note, I've been wanting to do a post on Terrakion since before the change in leadership, because to me Terrakion has always been one of the faces of Inheritance due to it's seemingly unmatched versatility, and if I'm not mistaken it is yet to be mentioned at all this gen.
Last generation Terrakion was famous for being able to dominate with tools from a plethora of donors, commonly Mega Lucario, Mega Heracross, Machamp, Spinda, Malamar, Breloom, Conkeldurr, Pangoro, Barbaracle and Omastar. Though many more options were also viable.
However this gen a handful of those are no longer legal, poor man's alternatives are still very potent (Mega-Luc -> Crawduant, Mega-Hera -> Toucannon), and Terrakion has a plethora of new options, as well as old options being buffed by Z-moves.
So let us have a look at what kind of new Terrakion sets might become more common this gen.
And that's just a handful of options. Many popular old sets, buffed past gen donors, and solid new gen donors all went unmentioned, with pokemon from Passimian to Sudowoodo all having niches. So get out there and start using Terrakion again!
Last generation Terrakion was famous for being able to dominate with tools from a plethora of donors, commonly Mega Lucario, Mega Heracross, Machamp, Spinda, Malamar, Breloom, Conkeldurr, Pangoro, Barbaracle and Omastar. Though many more options were also viable.
However this gen a handful of those are no longer legal, poor man's alternatives are still very potent (Mega-Luc -> Crawduant, Mega-Hera -> Toucannon), and Terrakion has a plethora of new options, as well as old options being buffed by Z-moves.
So let us have a look at what kind of new Terrakion sets might become more common this gen.
Scrafty (Terrakion) @ Rockium-Z
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Head Smash
- High Jump Kick
- Earthquake
An underrated donor last gen, Scrafty can shine now with the new Z-moves boasting an incredible buff towards Moxie, as after just one Dragon Dance you have the Speed and Power to blow something off the face of the earth with a +1 Z-Move and start snowballing. What's awesome too is that you don't have to take recoil from Head Smash when it becomes Continental Crush, allowing you to greatly increase longevity and reliability.
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Head Smash
- High Jump Kick
- Earthquake
An underrated donor last gen, Scrafty can shine now with the new Z-moves boasting an incredible buff towards Moxie, as after just one Dragon Dance you have the Speed and Power to blow something off the face of the earth with a +1 Z-Move and start snowballing. What's awesome too is that you don't have to take recoil from Head Smash when it becomes Continental Crush, allowing you to greatly increase longevity and reliability.
Tyrantrum (Terrakion) @ Fightium-Z
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Head Smash
- Superpower
- Earthquake
Another DD+Z-Move set, however this one having a much more spammable Head Smash. With Fightium-Z, Tyrantrum Terrakion is a lot more threatening due to its ability to bypass Steels that require the use of its Fighting STAB without losing its Atk boosts, or becoming vulnerable to priority due to the Def drop. Basically cop that Celesteela.
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Head Smash
- Superpower
- Earthquake
Another DD+Z-Move set, however this one having a much more spammable Head Smash. With Fightium-Z, Tyrantrum Terrakion is a lot more threatening due to its ability to bypass Steels that require the use of its Fighting STAB without losing its Atk boosts, or becoming vulnerable to priority due to the Def drop. Basically cop that Celesteela.
Lycanroc-Midday (Terrakion) @ Hard Stone
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly (/ Adamant) Nature
- Accelerock
- Stone Edge
- Brick Break
- Swords Dance / Crunch
Terrakion is a strong user of Accelerock that can gain a secondary STAB from Lycanroc's limited movepool for great STAB coverage (albeit low base powered). Swords Dance can boost Terrakion's power to make it a threatening sweepers, or Crunch can be beneficial for increased coverage, hitting the likes of Doublade. If you have a Sand Stream user, Adamant can make Terrakion's Stone Edge's extremely powerful, and make Accelerock far more potent without draw backs, however unless running Sand Stream support for the Sand Rush boost I wouldn't recommend it.
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly (/ Adamant) Nature
- Accelerock
- Stone Edge
- Brick Break
- Swords Dance / Crunch
Terrakion is a strong user of Accelerock that can gain a secondary STAB from Lycanroc's limited movepool for great STAB coverage (albeit low base powered). Swords Dance can boost Terrakion's power to make it a threatening sweepers, or Crunch can be beneficial for increased coverage, hitting the likes of Doublade. If you have a Sand Stream user, Adamant can make Terrakion's Stone Edge's extremely powerful, and make Accelerock far more potent without draw backs, however unless running Sand Stream support for the Sand Rush boost I wouldn't recommend it.
Tapu Bulu (Terrakion) @ Fightium-Z
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Super Power
- Stone Edge
- Wood Hammer
Much like Fightium-Z Bulu in standards, Terrakion has the ability to become an extremely powerful Stall Breaker. With an effective 3 100+ BP STAB moves and Swords Dance alongside a Z-Move, Terrakion is able to dismantle bulky cores, taking out common checks like unaware Suicune with Grassy Terrain Wood Hammer. Grassy Surge also gives Terrakion some nice passive recovery, but more importantly an awesome buff in effectively removing the Earthquake weakness, as well as providing team support.
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Super Power
- Stone Edge
- Wood Hammer
Much like Fightium-Z Bulu in standards, Terrakion has the ability to become an extremely powerful Stall Breaker. With an effective 3 100+ BP STAB moves and Swords Dance alongside a Z-Move, Terrakion is able to dismantle bulky cores, taking out common checks like unaware Suicune with Grassy Terrain Wood Hammer. Grassy Surge also gives Terrakion some nice passive recovery, but more importantly an awesome buff in effectively removing the Earthquake weakness, as well as providing team support.
Kommo-o (Terrakion) @ Life Orb
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Sky Uppercut
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
Low base power STABs, accommodated for by Life Orb and Dragon Dance, but a cool option for Terrakion because of how good Bullet Proof is on it. Immunities to Aura Sphere, Beak Blast, Bullet Seed, Energy Ball, Focus Blast, Gyro Ball, and Seed Bomb are awesome for Terrak. With the other immunities like to Shadow Ball also being extremely useful, because screw Sheer Force Gengar.
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Sky Uppercut
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
Low base power STABs, accommodated for by Life Orb and Dragon Dance, but a cool option for Terrakion because of how good Bullet Proof is on it. Immunities to Aura Sphere, Beak Blast, Bullet Seed, Energy Ball, Focus Blast, Gyro Ball, and Seed Bomb are awesome for Terrak. With the other immunities like to Shadow Ball also being extremely useful, because screw Sheer Force Gengar.
Guzzlord (Terrakion) @ Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 52 HP / 204 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hammer Arm
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
100BP Dual STAB with Band is delicious when you have a dual STAB like Terrakion's. The EVs' are put in place to ensure that Beast Boost increases speed, allowing Terrakion to clean crippled teams with Stone Edge, or stay in after a Hammer Arm as it negates the Speed drop. The opposite of the set can be accomplished with Buzzwole (and probably some Moxie users), with Scarf > Band and Superpower > Hammer Arm and Beast Boost (or Moxie) negating Superpower drops.
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 52 HP / 204 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hammer Arm
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
100BP Dual STAB with Band is delicious when you have a dual STAB like Terrakion's. The EVs' are put in place to ensure that Beast Boost increases speed, allowing Terrakion to clean crippled teams with Stone Edge, or stay in after a Hammer Arm as it negates the Speed drop. The opposite of the set can be accomplished with Buzzwole (and probably some Moxie users), with Scarf > Band and Superpower > Hammer Arm and Beast Boost (or Moxie) negating Superpower drops.
And that's just a handful of options. Many popular old sets, buffed past gen donors, and solid new gen donors all went unmentioned, with pokemon from Passimian to Sudowoodo all having niches. So get out there and start using Terrakion again!
Just wondering, but why are yanmega and ninjask the only mons with speed boost that aren't banned as donors?
edit: also, I feel as if several of these bans could end up being detrimental, as the problem lies in specific combinations from the donors rather than the donors themselves, and it limits possible sets that would benefit mons if they inherited from some of the banned mons.
edit: also, I feel as if several of these bans could end up being detrimental, as the problem lies in specific combinations from the donors rather than the donors themselves, and it limits possible sets that would benefit mons if they inherited from some of the banned mons.
Sylveon can be inherited by many mons due to pixilate return/double edge/last resort
like this
Tapu Koko @ Normalium Z
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge
- Celebrate
- Dig
- Iron Tail
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Tapu Koko Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 225-265 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Tapu Koko Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 469-553 (73 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Dig can do something:
252 Atk Tapu Koko Dig vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 308-364 (79.7 - 94.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Tapu Koko Dig vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Empoleon: 226-268 (60.7 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
and this
Tapu Bulu @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Atk / 96 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Curse
- Wish
- Protect
+2 160+ Atk Pixilate Tapu Bulu Return vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 543-639 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
and just to stop stalls,try this
Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Hidden Power [Ground]
+3 252 SpA Pixilate Magearna Hyper Voice vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 351-414 (79.5 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
While cre can do nothing against it
252 SpA Cresselia Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Magearna: 37-44 (10.1 - 12%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 30-36 (8.2 - 9.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Illumise(Tapu Koko) @ Choice Band
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- U-turn
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
really good move coverage with Tinted Lens
252 Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Tapu Koko Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 304-358 (84.2 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Tapu Koko Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sceptile: 236-280 (83.9 - 99.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
WOW
like this
Tapu Koko @ Normalium Z
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge
- Celebrate
- Dig
- Iron Tail
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Tapu Koko Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 225-265 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Tapu Koko Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 469-553 (73 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Dig can do something:
252 Atk Tapu Koko Dig vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 308-364 (79.7 - 94.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Tapu Koko Dig vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Empoleon: 226-268 (60.7 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
and this
Tapu Bulu @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Atk / 96 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Curse
- Wish
- Protect
+2 160+ Atk Pixilate Tapu Bulu Return vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 543-639 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
and just to stop stalls,try this
Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Hidden Power [Ground]
+3 252 SpA Pixilate Magearna Hyper Voice vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 351-414 (79.5 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
While cre can do nothing against it
252 SpA Cresselia Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Magearna: 37-44 (10.1 - 12%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 30-36 (8.2 - 9.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Illumise(Tapu Koko) @ Choice Band
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- U-turn
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
really good move coverage with Tinted Lens
252 Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Tapu Koko Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 304-358 (84.2 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Tapu Koko Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sceptile: 236-280 (83.9 - 99.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
WOW
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I figured these were coming. There's still a couple hours left so all this policy stuff is done in the first day! :P
A key component of Smogon's tiering philosophy is to make the most simple ban that also removes the broken element. OMs are a big part of Smogon, so we should follow that philosophy when we can. For example, Smogon's main metagame doesn't ban Speed Boost on Blaziken, but allow Blaze Blaziken; Blaziken as a whole is banned. Or, we don't allow some Ubers in OU, but limit them to only using some parts of their movepool so they aren't broken. Additionally, we should only globally ban abilities/moves if they are broken in all scenarios where that ability/move can be used (e.g. OU banned Shadow Tag, not Gothitelle and Wobbuffet).
Utilizing the Donor Clause is the same idea.
Playing off the Blaziken example above: We're not banning one from Inheriting Huge Power from Azumarill, but allowing one to Inherit Thick Fat from Azumarill. We ban Azumarill as a Donor.
Or the Ubers movepool example: We're not removing one component of Liepard/Chatot/Golurk/Machamp's movepool to allow them to be Inherited from.
OMs often add some depth to these ideas because they put abilities/moves on Pokemon that weren't designed to have them. For me, the requirements for a global ban of a move/ability would be that it is broken on nearly every Pokemon that could use it. Else, the problem is either the Donor giving that move/ability or the Inheritor being too strong for the metagame without its standard movepool/abilities. Either way, the problem is not the move/ability itself so it shouldn't be banned outright.
Is Azumarill with Huge Power too good for Inh? No.
Is Arena Trap Duggy too good for Inh? Probably not.
Chatot, Machamp, and Liepard? No.
Is Speed Boost broken on every Pokemon that gets it? No.
So we ban the Donors that enable other Pokemon to be broken, not the Abilities and Moves that they're donating.
I think the main issue here is the expectation that all OMs should be all-inclusive. We have all-inclusive metagames, but we also need to have some that aren't all-inclusive and follow more structured (dare I say restrictive?) tiering philosophies because of the consistency and simplicity they bring. I want Inheritance to be one of those.
Well, I was hoping for some No Guard Focus Blasts at some point on Pheromosa, but your logic is sound.
How do you determine the problem element is the donor and not the inheritor, and at what point do you say "Hey, it turns out the donor was NOT the problem, but we've been letting X run free with a hugely improved movepool (Kyube inheriting Sheer Force Feraligatr)"?
How do you determine the problem element is the donor and not the inheritor, and at what point do you say "Hey, it turns out the donor was NOT the problem, but we've been letting X run free with a hugely improved movepool (Kyube inheriting Sheer Force Feraligatr)"?
I understand your point to a degree, and while it's sad and imo unnecessary to lose things like Azumaril, I guess your points make sense. That said I feel like you've only given supportive reasoning for half the bans made, where as the other half your argument seems to contradict. More specifically, do you not think that "we should only globally ban abilities/moves if they are broken in all scenarios where that ability/move can be used (e.g. OU banned Shadow Tag, not Gothitelle and Wobbuffet)." could be applied to Assist and Dynamic Punch? To me they stick out as moves that always end up being uncompetitive no matter what mon uses them, and I'd find it a lot less complex to ban out those moves specifically than cut off a bunch of evolutionary lines. You could argue that they are only broken in combination with Prankster and No Guard respectively, but the fact remains that banning the moves solves that problem, and you're not losing anything because they're never used outside of that combination anyway, where as with banning the evolution lines we do lose stuff.
Depends on what makes it broken. Using your example, is it Kyu-b losing its original movepool/ability or is it Feraligatr allowing any Pokemon to inherit Sheer Force + <insert moves>. I think this case is really obvious, but if something more nuanced comes up later then obv. we'd discuss it here in the thread and (potentially) suspect test/ban accordingly. Fwiw, Kyu-b should already be banned.
Machamp is fine in UU. Golurk and Liepard are fine in RU/NU. It is donating the combination onto other 'mons that is the problem, not the combination on every 'mon.
I had an odd idea today, and I was wondering if it had potential.
Vikavolt (Magnezone) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Toxic
- Roost
Though it's generally used as an offensive mon in standard play, I think Magnezone could function pretty well as a bulky pivot here. Vikavolt provides it with reliable recovery, and an ability that bolsters its already great defensive typing. On top of that, its SpA stat is still pretty hefty even without investment, so it's not exactly passive.
So... yea or nay?
Vikavolt (Magnezone) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Toxic
- Roost
Though it's generally used as an offensive mon in standard play, I think Magnezone could function pretty well as a bulky pivot here. Vikavolt provides it with reliable recovery, and an ability that bolsters its already great defensive typing. On top of that, its SpA stat is still pretty hefty even without investment, so it's not exactly passive.
So... yea or nay?