Every stall team should be running toxapex and clefable...Keldeo is sort of decent in this meta but against stall unless you run choice and can make some great predictions its not doing shit. There are much better stallbreakers than sub keldeo and also that seems sort of like a bad set for keldeo in general atm. its not setting up on shit.
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Every stall team should be running toxapex and clefable...Keldeo is sort of decent in this meta but against stall unless you run choice and can make some great predictions its not doing shit. There are much better stallbreakers than sub keldeo and also that seems sort of like a bad set for keldeo in general atm. its not setting up on shit.
Why do you absolutly want to play one mon to beat stall ?
You only need a gameplan, a team that have the tools, and then, play skillfully. Straight 6-0 vs Stall is stupid, as get 6-0'd is stupid.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-241757
This is a match I played against Stall. It's, possibly, not the best version ofc, but it's a match that shows well that a match versus stall is a match like any others. You don't search sets to autowin against Offense right ? So just play well and bring a gameplan. It's the way to go vs stall.
Btw, I didn't play well in this match, I should have trap Toxapex as my Zapdos could have lose against it. Hopefully I won, but I didn't play with a perfect accuracy, so I had to PP waste Clefable. Anyway, Stalls with Dug aren't broken, there's like 1'000'000 ways to break it, be creative, and USE TEAM SYNERGY. This is the key.
To be honest, I didn't really lose ( like no haxx, no way to win, just crushed ) vs a Stall since I started play Stall myself. I just understand that if I lose against Stall with an offense team it's my entire fault. There can be 2 reasons :
1) My team was bad.
2) I didn't made it the way I should have.
To be honest once again. I barely never lose against Stall. So, just ask the good questions imo.
You only need a gameplan, a team that have the tools, and then, play skillfully. Straight 6-0 vs Stall is stupid, as get 6-0'd is stupid.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-241757
This is a match I played against Stall. It's, possibly, not the best version ofc, but it's a match that shows well that a match versus stall is a match like any others. You don't search sets to autowin against Offense right ? So just play well and bring a gameplan. It's the way to go vs stall.
Btw, I didn't play well in this match, I should have trap Toxapex as my Zapdos could have lose against it. Hopefully I won, but I didn't play with a perfect accuracy, so I had to PP waste Clefable. Anyway, Stalls with Dug aren't broken, there's like 1'000'000 ways to break it, be creative, and USE TEAM SYNERGY. This is the key.
To be honest, I didn't really lose ( like no haxx, no way to win, just crushed ) vs a Stall since I started play Stall myself. I just understand that if I lose against Stall with an offense team it's my entire fault. There can be 2 reasons :
1) My team was bad.
2) I didn't made it the way I should have.
To be honest once again. I barely never lose against Stall. So, just ask the good questions imo.
Here's the issue with this line of thinking: Dugtrio doesn't have 8 moveslots, it has 4. So it can't run all of EQ, Stone Edge, Reversal, Screech, Toxic, Memento, and Sucker Punch. It also only has 1 item slot, meaning it has to choose one of sash, rocknium z, fightnium z, groundnium z, band, scarf, etc. Realistically, any given Dugtrio set is only trapping slower ground weak steels, weakened grounded, and 2 or 3 other mons that you literally tailor your moveset to killing/crippling (the pool is larger if sash is up, but then you have the issue of needing sash to be up). Any good mon with a decent movepool would prolly be broken af if it could have access to all of its sets at the same time, not just duggy (Hi mega meta).
It seems you're deliberately ignoring the point I was making. You obviously can't use 8 moves on a Pokemon. The point I was making was the amount of versatility it brings to a team outside of stall is incredible.
If you're team needs momento for a set up sweeper you make it momento.
If you're team needs to break Chansey, Clef, or Tox you can run zMove or Screech.
If you're running an offense that doesn't like Koko you make it scarf and can still run utility such as Toxic/Momento.
Purposefully Ignoring the amount of utility it brings to a team doesn't make for a healthy discussion.
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You're vastly overstating the value of each of those things on Dugtrio.
1.) Memento is cool, but plenty of other things get that/Aurora Veil is a better, longer-lasting equivalent. Memento also forces one switch AT BEST and really depends on you being faster than the other mon and also them not having WoW/TWave/Toxic...
2.) There are a number of other mons that can break all of those things; it's not like Dugtrio is alone in that
3.) Tapu Koko can easily U-Turn on the switch and then OHKO Dugtrio with Dazzling Gleam, HP Ice (or straight up do that with any residual damage). Dugtrio is a revenge killer at best, a very shaky check.
Saying it brings all of that utility while at the same time as crushing stall is really overstating its efficacy; Dugtrio cannot have ANY prior damage in order to function perfectly, meaning you can't guess wrong. Honestly, it's been said before: Duggy can be great provided you have a good matchup; if not, it can be like playing down a teamslot.
My own personal thoughts on this ban were pretty perfectly captured by papai noel . If I have time to get reqs, I'll be voting no ban; we can always re-test it after we see how the metagame settles after other elements of the metagame are tested.
not to mention the standard stall that everybody is screaming at (chansey, skarmory, dugtrio, clefable, sableye-mega, toxapex/amoongus) straight loses to sd marowak-alola. like really theres nothing the stall user can do against maro-a.
also i want to share this team i made to climb the suspect ladder that hasnt done bad so far
i think alola muk does a great job at doing some of the things dugtrio does. it can come in on lele (moonblast does 27-32% to spedef muk-a) and do some severe damage with pursuit/poison jab. it also resists both of hoopa's stab moves and has overall nice bulk. it can also be very usefull in stall vs stall matchups (knocking items, trapping chansey etc)
tldr i dont think stall would lose much from the ban of dugtrio
also pls stop mentioning trash like trapinch or diglett
I dont think I'm overstating anything. It can do all of the things that I mentioned and still traps a mon.
In the case of memento.
Dugtrio traps a pokemon. Dugtrio kills the mon that you trap. They bring in thier response to Dugtrio. Now you memento and gain ALL of the momentum back that you lost. Dugtrio is the best and only relevant user of memento in the tier. Latios doesn't run it. Aurora Veil isn't relevant so I won't touch upon that.
Dugtrio is one of two pokemon in the tier that can Trap Clefable and Toxapex and Chansey. The other is Heatran. Which is trapped by Dugtrio. BandTar forces a 50/50 at best with Chansey and cannot trap Clefable and Toxapex. So yes, It pretty much is alone in that.
Scarf Dugtrio traps Koko. There is no refuting that. Bringing up a scenario that only enforces your argument is asinine. The Koko player will not always click u-turn. The Dugtrio player will not always go hard into Dugtrio. This is where player skill and counter play comes into the equation, and there is no inherent counterplay to Dugtrio since it always 100% traps what it wants to trap.
"Saying it brings all of that utility while at the same time as crushing stall," where did I say that.
If your argument is that Dugtrio deserves a ban because of what it accomplishes outside of stall, I'm not sure you're picking the most convincing argument to prove any brokenness. When I say you're overstating its efficacy, I mean it; outside of hurting stallbreakers, it's a REALLY finicky team member. It absolutely cannot sustain any residual damage or else it will not be able to do anything reliably except revenge kill things it hits hard. Your argument rests entirely on the assumption that Dugtrio will get a KO and be unharmed, which is the assumption I take most issue with ITT. Dugtrio is never a guarantee unless it's on the revenge. If you mispredict and switch in Dugtrio, you stand a very good chance of losing your only option to remove certain threats. It's a classic case of "broken on paper, not so much in practice".
This is why I don't like this suspect right now, especially with so many other huge threats (which I also assert impact the metagame magnitudes above Dugtrio).
not to mention the standard stall that everybody is screaming at (chansey, skarmory, dugtrio, clefable, sableye-mega, toxapex/amoongus) straight loses to sd marowak-alola. like really theres nothing the stall user can do against maro-a.
also i want to share this team i made to climb the suspect ladder that hasnt done bad so far
i think alola muk does a great job at doing some of the things dugtrio does. it can come in on lele (moonblast does 27-32% to spedef muk-a) and do some severe damage with pursuit/poison jab. it also resists both of hoopa's stab moves and has overall nice bulk. it can also be very usefull in stall vs stall matchups (knocking items, trapping chansey etc)
tldr i dont think stall would lose much from the ban of dugtrio
also pls stop mentioning trash like trapinch or diglett
There's some that runs Pursuit Dugtrio, pretty cheap and need to be used smart, but anyway, MU vs Maro-A is garbage y. The point I wanted to show up is that it's stupid to search something to destroy stall when you can win with any nice team if you're a good player ( you'll lose if the stall player is better than you ofc, but it's not a MU loss ).
I really like your team btw, it's not SR weak and there's nice option vs everything. 2 questions, but it's prettt much one tbh. Is that full def Sableye ? ( That is the same thing to ask the spread of your Toxapex, I assume it has a huge SpD invest ? )
My argument for a ban is what it does on and off of stall. I didn't think I needed to bring it up what it does on stall and I won't since it's already been said many times over.
"outside of hurting stallbreakers, it's a REALLY finicky team member." This argument is bad because that's all it needs to do on stall. The point of the pokemon is to trap problematic stall breakers. When it's not on stall it only needs to remove the pokemon that you need removed in order for it to be a success. Dugtrio only has 1 job. It does that job and a little extra.
"Your argument rests entirely on the assumption that Dugtrio will get a KO and be unharmed." There is no assumption. If you're using stall chances are there are not going to be hazards on the field. If you're not using stall you probably want it to trap things like Chansey or Clefable. So prior damage doesn't matter when all you need is a screech and an EQ to do its job successfully.
"Dugtrio is never a guarantee unless it's on the revenge." Which is the only time it should be used. Unless you make a prediction that has a low risk and high reward.
"broken on paper, not so much in practice". I consider it the opposite. On paper it has very average stats and a very average movepool with a nice ability. But in practice it has everything it needs to be unhealthy for the OU metagame.
Or you can play smartly and setup EH against stall, enven Hippow or Ferro can do it, the whole thing is about momentum. You can also play Volturn, which 6-0'd properly the sample stall. Just be smart.
Okay, so then you WERE implying it...regardless, my argument against that remains the same. I do not support the argument that Dugtrio functions equally well on and off stall, bringing the same level of utility off stall.
You're right that it's really only got one job; it is not always easy to accomplish that because of things like hazards, misplays, etc. The frailty of Dugtrio should not ever be understated, and arguing with such an air of certainty is something I--from experience--cannot endorse with Dugtrio. The game often comes down to one read (meaning, if you mispredict, you lose) just getting him in safely.
Yes, there is an assumption. Saying stall never has hazards down against it is also an absurd assertion to make; how frequently do you USE stall? There are a number of ways to force M-Sableye away from the field and safely get hazards down. I say everything I've said from experience--extensive experience with Dugtrio stall. I actually am one of the few people that enjoys playing with stall, so yes, I have plenty of understanding how it functions in a realistic setting.
Sometimes, you cannot afford to sacrifice something in order to get Dugtrio in. His best use is not always as a revenge killer, sometimes you actually need to play mind games (especially with stall, where you're switching in and out like every two turns).
No, in practice, it entirely depends on matchup, player skill, and sometimes a degree of luck.
This will be my last post since it's getting tiring repeating the same things multiple times.
I never said Dugtrio crushes stall. Idk how you connected the dots with those two separate posts.
No game ever comes down to one turn unless it involves hax or a blatant choke by one player. Dugtrio also does things off the field forcing the player to use his/her stall breaker or his/her sweeper sparingly from fear of being trapped by Duggy.
These are the following things that gets hazards on stall.
1.) Rocks Clefable.
2.) Rocks Heatran.
3.) Spikes Greninja with Hydro.
4.) SD Landorus with Rocks.
Heatran gets trapped by Dugtrio. Players have been using Spdef Sableye in order to deal with Greninja and Tapu Fini. Landorus loses to Skarmory 1v1 because of counter.--
Clefable and Landorus are the only pokemon that can get hazards on stall consistently.
"His best use is not always as a revenge killer, sometimes you actually need to play mind games (especially with stall, where you're switching in and out like every two turns)."
I literally said this.
I never said Dugtrio crushes stall. Idk how you connected the dots with those two separate posts.
No game ever comes down to one turn unless it involves hax or a blatant choke by one player. Dugtrio also does things off the field forcing the player to use his/her stall breaker or his/her sweeper sparingly from fear of being trapped by Duggy.
These are the following things that gets hazards on stall.
1.) Rocks Clefable.
2.) Rocks Heatran.
3.) Spikes Greninja with Hydro.
4.) SD Landorus with Rocks.
Heatran gets trapped by Dugtrio. Players have been using Spdef Sableye in order to deal with Greninja and Tapu Fini. Landorus loses to Skarmory 1v1 because of counter.--
Clefable and Landorus are the only pokemon that can get hazards on stall consistently.
"His best use is not always as a revenge killer, sometimes you actually need to play mind games (especially with stall, where you're switching in and out like every two turns)."
I literally said this.
I correct : Every EH Stacking Team can PP Waste Sableye's Recover.
Landorus with Z Stone Edge + SD + SR win against Skarm by SR T1, then Z SEdge. If Counter then force Skarm away, it can't defog anymore, if Defog, Stone edge then setup rocks on the thing that come. If roost it's a bit tricky, but if you feel like your oppo will roost you can just setup 2 SD, anyway if you get WW'd you'll have another chance.
Def Uturn Lando T setup SRs in a long run, especially effective with Uturn + Switch Koko.
Anyway, just don't give away the momentum and you can't just lose. Stall trades momentum against healing / EH Layer / Statuts. Is that so hard to play well ?
Just like with the gen suspect, I decided to get reqs again which was a pretty fun process. I'll be voting ban because dugtrio's stats, movepool, and trapping ability all come together to result in an annoying mon to face in general. As an advocate for stall breakers, it's stupid that you're more or less forced to carry some niche stall breaking set (i.e shed shell lele) to consistently stall break. While there are other options such as my favourite, sd rocks lando t, many common stall breakers such as hoopa u, heatran and band tar will simply get trapped and killed by dugtrio, often leaving your team to be walled by 5 mons. That said, dugtrio is just irritating to constantly consider and prep for when building/playing, and I think the metagame will be more fun without it
Okay, let's talk about what Dugtrio actually does, because wow this thread is rancid.
Items:
Focus Sash 97.578% | | Other 2.422%
Moves:
Earthquake 99.788% | | Reversal 90.500% | | Stealth Rock 49.918% | | Screech 42.598% | | Stone Edge 27.570% | | Memento 20.850% | | Sucker Punch 18.526% | | Toxic 15.802% | | Rock Slide 14.348% | | Rock Tomb 8.035% | | Other 12.066%
Those are the 1895, but weighting really doesn't change much from lower levels. So don't talk about Scarf sets or Arial Ace because no one actually uses them.
On the other hand, getting up entry hazards against dual-defog MSab stall? Want to teach me how to do that? Dugtrio is going to come in with it's sash intact the instant it gets a free switch into your wallbreaker. So unless you run Shed Shell or multiple breakers, Dugtrio stall will guarantee your breaker can't actually kill anything all match. In earlier gens that was an acceptable risk, but now? The tier is too matchup-based as it is. Dugtrio isn't the biggest problem there, but it needs to go. BanArena Trap Dugtrio.
Items:
Focus Sash 97.578% | | Other 2.422%
Moves:
Earthquake 99.788% | | Reversal 90.500% | | Stealth Rock 49.918% | | Screech 42.598% | | Stone Edge 27.570% | | Memento 20.850% | | Sucker Punch 18.526% | | Toxic 15.802% | | Rock Slide 14.348% | | Rock Tomb 8.035% | | Other 12.066%
Those are the 1895, but weighting really doesn't change much from lower levels. So don't talk about Scarf sets or Arial Ace because no one actually uses them.
On the other hand, getting up entry hazards against dual-defog MSab stall? Want to teach me how to do that? Dugtrio is going to come in with it's sash intact the instant it gets a free switch into your wallbreaker. So unless you run Shed Shell or multiple breakers, Dugtrio stall will guarantee your breaker can't actually kill anything all match. In earlier gens that was an acceptable risk, but now? The tier is too matchup-based as it is. Dugtrio isn't the biggest problem there, but it needs to go. Ban
Having got reqs, I got to see the meta without Dugtrio quite a lot. There are a few things I've noticed, in a general sense I can reduce them to the changes in Stall, Offense and Balance.
Stall is still very much alive and well, even without Duggy. Teams are falling back on Diglett or Trapinch (mainly Diglett in my experience), which for the most part do the same thing as Duggy - trap one threat such as Lele, Hoopa or Zard X and free up the Stall player to sludge their way through a 2 hour shitfest. There's been a resurgence in banded Weavile, and a lot of teams are just saying screw it and forgoing a trapper in exchange for something like Unaware Clef or Alomomola. Overall Stall really hasn't been heavily dented in the new meta and I would expect it to come back in full force regardless of whether or not Duggy gets banned. With this in mind, with regard to stall, I would say No Ban, because it is clear that Duggy is a catalyst, not the cause, of the power of stall.
Balance has changed significantly but also subtly - if you're looking for the changes you see them everywhere. You see a lot more instances of Tapu Koko and Lele, Heatran, Nihilego, even Pheromosa which some may find unexpected, but Duggy definitely hampered its usage. There are some Pokemon which are seemingly on every single team now - Fini, Volcarona, Metagross, Magearna, Muk-Alola and Excadrill are in my experience shooting up in usage, while there are a lot of Pokemon that have seen significant declines. In my 63 games plus many more on other alts, I have not seen one Double Dance Lando, Buzzwole, Tyranitar, Pinsir, and strangely no Rain teams although I chalk that up to chance. I've noticed significant declines in Tangrowth, Manaphy, Gyarados, Celesteela, Protean Gren, Mega Scizor. It's only been a few days and clearly people are trying to use teams they previously thought were weak to Duggy, but I've enjoyed this meta a lot more than in the past when I play Balance. It's clear to me that matchup is no longer winning 70+% of games and skill becomes a much bigger factor in many games. As a result, I think I would want to Ban Duggy due to the net positive effect on Balance.
Offense hasn't seen much change in structure, but has become more effective. I used a heavily offensive team in getting reqs and found it to be much more straightforward in strategy. There was no longer a clear win con that you can't use because Duggy would kill it, and there was no longer pivots like Magearna that were mostly or entirely useless when the opponent had a Duggy. Balance and Offense heavily overlap this gen, so it is not a surprise that Offense is benefited when Balance also is, but I truly have found that for improving many of the issues this gen has brought forward for Offense, a Ban for Dugtrio is the best choice.
Overall, that's 1 No Ban, and 2 Ban, so I will be voting to Ban Dugtrio.
Stall is still very much alive and well, even without Duggy. Teams are falling back on Diglett or Trapinch (mainly Diglett in my experience), which for the most part do the same thing as Duggy - trap one threat such as Lele, Hoopa or Zard X and free up the Stall player to sludge their way through a 2 hour shitfest. There's been a resurgence in banded Weavile, and a lot of teams are just saying screw it and forgoing a trapper in exchange for something like Unaware Clef or Alomomola. Overall Stall really hasn't been heavily dented in the new meta and I would expect it to come back in full force regardless of whether or not Duggy gets banned. With this in mind, with regard to stall, I would say No Ban, because it is clear that Duggy is a catalyst, not the cause, of the power of stall.
Balance has changed significantly but also subtly - if you're looking for the changes you see them everywhere. You see a lot more instances of Tapu Koko and Lele, Heatran, Nihilego, even Pheromosa which some may find unexpected, but Duggy definitely hampered its usage. There are some Pokemon which are seemingly on every single team now - Fini, Volcarona, Metagross, Magearna, Muk-Alola and Excadrill are in my experience shooting up in usage, while there are a lot of Pokemon that have seen significant declines. In my 63 games plus many more on other alts, I have not seen one Double Dance Lando, Buzzwole, Tyranitar, Pinsir, and strangely no Rain teams although I chalk that up to chance. I've noticed significant declines in Tangrowth, Manaphy, Gyarados, Celesteela, Protean Gren, Mega Scizor. It's only been a few days and clearly people are trying to use teams they previously thought were weak to Duggy, but I've enjoyed this meta a lot more than in the past when I play Balance. It's clear to me that matchup is no longer winning 70+% of games and skill becomes a much bigger factor in many games. As a result, I think I would want to Ban Duggy due to the net positive effect on Balance.
Offense hasn't seen much change in structure, but has become more effective. I used a heavily offensive team in getting reqs and found it to be much more straightforward in strategy. There was no longer a clear win con that you can't use because Duggy would kill it, and there was no longer pivots like Magearna that were mostly or entirely useless when the opponent had a Duggy. Balance and Offense heavily overlap this gen, so it is not a surprise that Offense is benefited when Balance also is, but I truly have found that for improving many of the issues this gen has brought forward for Offense, a Ban for Dugtrio is the best choice.
Overall, that's 1 No Ban, and 2 Ban, so I will be voting to Ban Dugtrio.
You will never convince anyone who is remotely knowledgeable and in favor of the ban that Dugtrio stall is fine with that kind of reasoning.
Since I just made reqs I feel like I should chip in with what I think about dugtrio. While I don't see the mon as being too problematic on balance or even offensive teams, it's very frustrating to face on stall teams just like goth was last gen. While there are usable workarounds that can overcome this common stall build (like swords dance lando-t), it's hard to build a standard team that can beat this archetype while being able to handle other styles as well. And I think this is the main reason that dugtrio is being suspected, so I'm gonna vote ban.
I just want to say that I believe the premise of this suspect to be a bit ridiculous in light of all the other threats that affect the metagame orders of magnitude more than dugtrio does. Heck, Dugtrio is really only used to remove those threats, to which most teams otherwise don't have easy answers.
Sure, arena trap is inherently uncompetitive, but no one would be using dugtrio in the first place if the metagame wasn't so damm matchup dependent. Cleanup the broken stuff up top first and then we can see how dugtrio actually affects a more balanced meta later.
I'm not going to get reqs myself, but I encourage those who do to take the above into account when making their decision.
Sure, arena trap is inherently uncompetitive, but no one would be using dugtrio in the first place if the metagame wasn't so damm matchup dependent. Cleanup the broken stuff up top first and then we can see how dugtrio actually affects a more balanced meta later.
I'm not going to get reqs myself, but I encourage those who do to take the above into account when making their decision.
It wasnt even my intention? No one had brought it up yet so i felt like sharing it. Stall has 0 ways to beat maro-a unless you run something like hippowdown or landorus and dugtrio isnt going to help you at all. I was just adding to what zokuru said about stall matchups.
That wasnt even the main point i was trying to make anyway. Main point i was trying to make is, alola muk can do some of the things dugtrio does very well, if not better, and could be a perfect replacement in case dugtrio leaves. I just thought people should consider that.
100% agreed
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I was thinking the exact same thing. I mean if we want to be blunt here by looking at Dugtrio's support for offensive teams, the main issue as to why people really see it as problematic is because threats like Greninja, Mega Metagross, Pheromosa and even Z Landorus-T get their checks trapped by Duggy, which usually proceeds to them sweeping/dealing huge amounts of damage.
I mean for sure it's too late now, but really it's just kinda hard to tell Dugtrio's effect for offense teams when we have a meta ambiguous with threats that lack many checks that get trapped by Duggy. We have to ask ourselves if that's an issue with Dugtrio or the aforementioned mons here.
As for stall, it's annoying to face when it's on those teams but as proven before in this thread, Dugtrio really is not the catalyst that makes Stall viable. So sorry but banning Duggy will still make you face defensive teams on ladder.
A week or two before the suspect began I started to see Pursuit on Dug way more often than early SM and I think it would've been standard eventually because Marowak is such a pain for Stall and all you need to do is win a couple of 50-50s and Wak is dead+ its rocks weakness doesn't help. Marowak doesn't 6-0 Stall and saying that it has 0 ways to beat it is an overstatement considering that chip damage (you either take it while SD'ing up or 2hkoing something) and rocks will out you in range of Pursuit.
Reading stuff like this makes me wonder if you ever played stall on your own or you just watched someone using stall in lowladder. Probably the latter. Let alone the fact that pursuit dugtrio is complete trash and that if you really want to hit maro-a suckerpunch is immensely better, the maro-a user just has to spam shadow bone since it 2hokes everything bar defensive clefable (still dies in the next turn to flare blitz and cant do much in return anyway) and toxapex who's going to die to boomerang in the next turn. Alola marowak is unmanageable for stall and everyone who disagrees is trying too hard or is theorymoning. Dont take that personal just thought this had to be adressed before it degenerates and people start saying dugtrio counters alola marowak lol.
mm reading this makes me wonder if you've ever used Alowak. Alowak is never staying in on dugtrio. If it has any kind of prior or comes in on rocks (which is highly likely) or dug's sash is intact, dug kills it 100% of the time. Sucker punch doesn't come remotely close, idk why you brought it up. Let's just say rocks are up on the Alowak side of the field, because stall generally has rocks up. This means alowak can only come in 4 times. If one of those times it also happens to come in on a scald, it can only come in once more. If it's toxic'd (chansey switched into SB and hit it), that reduces the number of times it can come in. If it comes in on clefable's knock, its useless.
I really don't get why 'use breakers that aren't weak to duggy' and 'play around it' can be arguments not to ban it, but stall can't be bothered to switch it up and use mons that beat Alowak (such as physdef hippo, resto lando, weaville).
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c'mon dude..
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