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Resource Monotype SM Viability Rankings
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You made some massive misconceptions in the evidence you gave on your point imo.
Starting on Golurk, it doesnt always guarantee rocks just because it can hold a focus sash, sitting at base 55 speed leaves it outsped by many taunt users not to mention you suggested it can invest in speed to KO Mega Sharpedo, Mega Gyarados and Greninja which is completely untrue not to mention its ability to check these mons is solely based on maintaining the focus sash. In terms of bisharp as well this is just untrue most bisharp run speed which will allow it to outspeed golurk. You also mention that Alolan Marowak is forced to switch out of knock offs as though dark doesnt have a viable knock off switch in in MSab. Golurk isnt without a niche but its not vital enough for ghost that it be an A rank Imo especially when compared to the more superior Marowak, which offers a powerful physical wall breaker and check to a larger portion of the metagame than golurk.
In terms of gengar you make a misconception on ice and fire being the two types that rely on rapid spin to remove hazards which is again partially true as most Bug, Steel, Ground and some water teams opting to use it to remove hazard. Gengar also relies on a bit more than hazards being up to clean, a majority of the mons you suggested have ways around the speed advantage gengar has over them, such as sucker punch from Bisharp, Speed boost or mega evolving for sharpedo, and Zard X having getting a dragon dance up. Though I will give you that a majority of the mons you suggest are OHKO by Gengar after rocks damage, however one of the major issues gengar has is how easy it is to check itself, it is extremely venerable to pursuit trapping from the likes of Tyranitar and Muk, being revenge killed by pretty much any scarfer in the tier. I feel that these flaws are what holds gengar back from being an S rank mon.
I disagree with you assessment of Doublade, you contradict yourself when you acknowledge its high defence then go on to say it isn't durable, It's spdef is low anyone can pick up on that but what makes doublade work so well is it's typing, it has the most resistances in the game with that typing which is what helps patch up that subpar spdef. You mention some of its checks yet those mons all have respective checks on ghost, the likes of Jellicent, Marowak, and Mega Sab, the only one who applies masses of pressure is hydreigon arguebly so yes they are checks I dont see how they really stop doublade from doing its role. The physcial walls you named are checks to it as well however doublades role is more as a lategame cleaner/physical tank so those walls should have been dealt with by other members of the team before you attempt to use doublade. On ghost there isnt a mon that fulfills a physical tank cleaner the way that Doublade does, many of those mons you suggested that offer more impact in the meta in doing doublade's job do completely different jobs. If you are going to claim stuff like that it helps if you define the job it does before you make that kind of claim(Unless I've overlooked it in your post then I'll withdraw that statement)
Starting on Golurk, it doesnt always guarantee rocks just because it can hold a focus sash, sitting at base 55 speed leaves it outsped by many taunt users not to mention you suggested it can invest in speed to KO Mega Sharpedo, Mega Gyarados and Greninja which is completely untrue not to mention its ability to check these mons is solely based on maintaining the focus sash. In terms of bisharp as well this is just untrue most bisharp run speed which will allow it to outspeed golurk. You also mention that Alolan Marowak is forced to switch out of knock offs as though dark doesnt have a viable knock off switch in in MSab. Golurk isnt without a niche but its not vital enough for ghost that it be an A rank Imo especially when compared to the more superior Marowak, which offers a powerful physical wall breaker and check to a larger portion of the metagame than golurk.
In terms of gengar you make a misconception on ice and fire being the two types that rely on rapid spin to remove hazards which is again partially true as most Bug, Steel, Ground and some water teams opting to use it to remove hazard. Gengar also relies on a bit more than hazards being up to clean, a majority of the mons you suggested have ways around the speed advantage gengar has over them, such as sucker punch from Bisharp, Speed boost or mega evolving for sharpedo, and Zard X having getting a dragon dance up. Though I will give you that a majority of the mons you suggest are OHKO by Gengar after rocks damage, however one of the major issues gengar has is how easy it is to check itself, it is extremely venerable to pursuit trapping from the likes of Tyranitar and Muk, being revenge killed by pretty much any scarfer in the tier. I feel that these flaws are what holds gengar back from being an S rank mon.
I disagree with you assessment of Doublade, you contradict yourself when you acknowledge its high defence then go on to say it isn't durable, It's spdef is low anyone can pick up on that but what makes doublade work so well is it's typing, it has the most resistances in the game with that typing which is what helps patch up that subpar spdef. You mention some of its checks yet those mons all have respective checks on ghost, the likes of Jellicent, Marowak, and Mega Sab, the only one who applies masses of pressure is hydreigon arguebly so yes they are checks I dont see how they really stop doublade from doing its role. The physcial walls you named are checks to it as well however doublades role is more as a lategame cleaner/physical tank so those walls should have been dealt with by other members of the team before you attempt to use doublade. On ghost there isnt a mon that fulfills a physical tank cleaner the way that Doublade does, many of those mons you suggested that offer more impact in the meta in doing doublade's job do completely different jobs. If you are going to claim stuff like that it helps if you define the job it does before you make that kind of claim(Unless I've overlooked it in your post then I'll withdraw that statement)
So to commemorate the release of Mega Beedrill (and also to start some discussion), here are my thoughts after some actual playtesting:
Poison - Mega Beedrill is certainly better now that it can run four attacking moves, and certainly performs better vs. Fairy; it's also nice to have Knock Off on something fast enough to cripple things before it's hit. That said though, teams w/ Mega Beedrill seem to fare worse vs. water (swift swim says hi) and psychic (Mega Zam still outspeeds, which i guess means Mega Aero would too if you ever saw one). Due to the steep opportunity cost in not being able to use Mega Venusaur (Amoonguss is nice w/ Clear Smog and Spore, but it's way to slow and takes too much from Fire and Ice attacks), as well as the existence of Scolipede who is basically as effective, boosts more reliably and can outspeed Mega Zam after +1, I would say B rank on Poison
Bug - So there are not one, but two megas on Bug that are vastly superior to this thing. Scolipede is still basically the same role on the team except for U-Turn, but Bug wasn't exactly desperate for speedy physical attackers the way Poison teams are. I played a couple of matches with Mega Bee and couldn't stand having to give up Mega Pinsir for it, so I would say D rank on Bug
tl;dr - my opinions in bold; if you disagree, i'd love to hear why
Poison - Mega Beedrill is certainly better now that it can run four attacking moves, and certainly performs better vs. Fairy; it's also nice to have Knock Off on something fast enough to cripple things before it's hit. That said though, teams w/ Mega Beedrill seem to fare worse vs. water (swift swim says hi) and psychic (Mega Zam still outspeeds, which i guess means Mega Aero would too if you ever saw one). Due to the steep opportunity cost in not being able to use Mega Venusaur (Amoonguss is nice w/ Clear Smog and Spore, but it's way to slow and takes too much from Fire and Ice attacks), as well as the existence of Scolipede who is basically as effective, boosts more reliably and can outspeed Mega Zam after +1, I would say B rank on Poison
Bug - So there are not one, but two megas on Bug that are vastly superior to this thing. Scolipede is still basically the same role on the team except for U-Turn, but Bug wasn't exactly desperate for speedy physical attackers the way Poison teams are. I played a couple of matches with Mega Bee and couldn't stand having to give up Mega Pinsir for it, so I would say D rank on Bug
tl;dr - my opinions in bold; if you disagree, i'd love to hear why
Dragagle B=>A (Dragon)
It has toxic spikes to help with the problems of things walling dragons (Ex. Normal.) It's slow enough that you stand a chance against trick room fairy (0 Ivs are slower than azumarill (with -nature With it's ability adaptibility it can ohko most fairys that pose a threat offensively. With max hp and SpD it takes 47% max damage from fleur cannon from magerna (252 spA) You could run scald or hp fire or focus blast to deal with steel types. Ninetales Alola bullies dragons. It gets 3hko by freeze dry and 2hko by blizzard. If aurora veil is up sludge wave 75% 2hk0. Probably would be too bad to run some SpA to secure the kills.
It has toxic spikes to help with the problems of things walling dragons (Ex. Normal.) It's slow enough that you stand a chance against trick room fairy (0 Ivs are slower than azumarill (with -nature With it's ability adaptibility it can ohko most fairys that pose a threat offensively. With max hp and SpD it takes 47% max damage from fleur cannon from magerna (252 spA) You could run scald or hp fire or focus blast to deal with steel types. Ninetales Alola bullies dragons. It gets 3hko by freeze dry and 2hko by blizzard. If aurora veil is up sludge wave 75% 2hk0. Probably would be too bad to run some SpA to secure the kills.
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While all that sounds great on paper (and Dragon teams wouldn't mind Toxic Spikes), let's look at what Dragalge does to actually stop Magearna:
252+ SpA Dragalge Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Magearna: 104-124 (28.6 - 34.1%) -- 1.4% chance to 3HKO
Yes, this is its strongest attack. Having a strong Sludge Wave means nothing against Fairy if Magearna can switch in and instantly threaten your team.
Let's look at Azumarill:
252 Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 178-211 (53.4 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
.. so Dragalge can't even switch in as Azumarill outspeeds and 2HKOs. Dragalge can scare it out if its healthy enough, but it's only gonna make Magearna switch in (which, if Fairy sees a Dragalge, they sure as hell are keeping Magearna alive and they also wouldn't set Trick Room until it's gone)
252 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Dragalge: 218-258 (65.4 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage and Black Sludge recovery
.. see Azumarill above for exactly how this scenario plays out, assuming you don't get frozen
Not to mention, your moveset will guaranteed have dual STABs for Adaptability, meaning you can either run Tspikes and one coverage move, or two coverage moves and no Tspikes. Dragon honestly is better off applying massive offensive pressure, and Dragalge imo is fine at B.
99/100 times you'd much rather have Mega Venusaur on your Poison team than Mega Beedrill, there is really no way it should be all the way up at B. Mega Bee's weakness to rocks + poison not having the best hazard removal in the game hurts it viability too. Sure its annoying in some match-ups but unless i read a really really convincing post over when and why i should consider using up my mega slot on a fast U-turner that doesn't apply much pressure at all and makes the Ground and Electric match-up even worse, I'm not sold on it at all. D-rank imo.
Interestingly, this was my initial reasoning too, but B rank is also filled with skuntank, drapion and tentacruel, and these are all options that are outclassed most of the time by a-muk and toxapex. While these aren't mega Pokémon, incuding something like tentacruel on the team will have the same effect as it will replace toxapex (nobody is going to run both)..
Like these guys, it's not like mega bee is bad on the level of qwilfish, it's just that you have way better options available...
I agree with your reasoning and I can see where you're coming from, but in my opinion the value of an almost unreplacable Mega Pokemon is way higher than one individual team member that doesn't hold as much as a unique niche as the other. Mega Venusaur is the glue that keeps Poison-type teams from falling apart and losing horribly to Electric and Water match-ups, and I think the trade-off of having a fast hard-hitter on a type that doesn't really need that role as a whole I think justifies why Mega Beedrill should almost never be used over Mega Venusaur, unless you're playing for some Tournament and are ab-so-lutely sure your opponent will bring something like Psychic or Dark, but eh.
Marowak-Alola C --> B (Fire)
Although Marowak's "raw power" isn't as unique on Fire as it is on Ghost: an effective 518/568 attack with Thick Club is comparable with threats like Band Victini or Darmanitan. However Marowak's access to strong Ghost STAB in Shadow Bone makes it one of the strongest secondary STAB options available to Fire Monotypes, and can help deal with threats like Slowbro(-Mega). And Marowak's strength can't be understated, as even out of the sun Marowak can 2HKO threats like Toxapex or Mandibuzz, and in the sun will 2HKO almost every defensive wall from Porygon2 to Mega-Sableye.
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 188-224 (61.8 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 210-248 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Tyranitar: 296-352 (73.2 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 160-189 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2 in Sun: 240-283 (64.1 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 240 HP / 216+ Def Mandibuzz: 222-262 (52.7 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 240 HP / 216+ Def Mandibuzz in Sun: 333-393 (79 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 192-226 (63.3 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega in Sun: 288-339 (95 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 210-248 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Tyranitar: 296-352 (73.2 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 160-189 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2 in Sun: 240-283 (64.1 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 240 HP / 216+ Def Mandibuzz: 222-262 (52.7 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 240 HP / 216+ Def Mandibuzz in Sun: 333-393 (79 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 192-226 (63.3 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega in Sun: 288-339 (95 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Luckily, Alola-Wak is able to switch into and/or check almost every Electric type in the metagame including Zapdos, Magnezone, Tapu Koko, Thundurus-T, Thundurus-I (without Knock Off), Galvantula, and Alola-Raichu. An immunity, unlike a resist (Rotom-Heat), to Volt Switch means Alola-Marowak can consistently generate momentum against Fairy, Electric, and Flying monotypes without letting threats like Dragonite, Alola-Golem, or Landorus-T be pivoted into safely.
Finally, Alola-Marowak can offer minor utility in Stealth Rocks, allowing Torkoal to run another move. The Fighting- and Normal-type immunities can be helpful as well, forcing 50/50s with threats like Diggersby and spin-blocking.
Considering these assets, I nominate B-rank for Alola-Marowak on Fire.
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Here's long awaited update
Quick things to note
Quick things to note
- Mega Beedrill will start of at D on both Bug and Poison, if it progressively gets better we'll rank it higher.
- Please avoid biased nominations. Nominations, such as I use this Pokemon on my teams will not be tolerated. This is your warning
Poison
Muk-Alola A--->S
Mega Beedril Unranked--->D
Amoonguss Unranked--->D
Salazzle B--->C
Dragon
Salamence B--->A
Guzzlord C--->D
Exeggutor-Alola D--->Unranked
Dark
Guzzlord C--->D
Umbreon B--->C
Ghost
Gengar A--->S
Doublade A--->B
Decidueye B--->C
Grass
Decidueye B--->C
Exeggutor-Alola C--->Unranked
Fire
Talonflame B--->C
Flying
Landorus-Therian A--->S
Salamence C--->B
Thundurus-Therian B--->C
Tornadus-Therian B--->C
Water
Toxapex S--->A
Manaphy A--->S-This will be discussed more later, but the continued dominance of Rain Dance Waterium Z Manaphy can't be ignored.
Mega Gyarados B---->A
Bug
Buzzwole B--->A
Mega Beedrill Unranked--->D
Rock
Mega Aerodactyl B--->A
Golem-Alola C--->B
Fighting
Conkeldurr B--->C
Psychic
Necrozma B--->C
Deoxys-S B--->A
Raichu-Alola D---> Unranked
Cresselia D--->C
Bruxish D--->Unranked
Normal
Swellow C--->B
Drampa B--->C
Steel
Bisharp A--->B
Dragon
Dark
Ghost
Grass
Fire
Flying
Water
Bug
Rock
Fighting
Psychic
Normal
Steel
FINALLY someone actually acknowledges how scary Koko is against Fire without Alola Marowak xDAlola-Marowak is pretty underrated on Fire Monotypes, largely due to it's low speed, but IMO is still a worthwhile asset due largely to it's Electric-type immunity and raw, spammable power.
Marowak-Alola C --> B (Fire)
Although Marowak's "raw power" isn't as unique on Fire as it is on Ghost: an effective 518/568 attack with Thick Club is comparable with threats like Band Victini or Darmanitan. However Marowak's access to strong Ghost STAB in Shadow Bone makes it one of the strongest secondary STAB options available to Fire Monotypes, and can help deal with threats like Slowbro(-Mega). And Marowak's strength can't be understated, as even out of the sun Marowak can 2HKO threats like Toxapex or Mandibuzz, and in the sun will 2HKO almost every defensive wall from Porygon2 to Mega-Sableye.
Electric Immunity is Marowak's biggest niche, however, as Electric-spam can be extremely dangerous to Fire teams, especially for teams utilizing Mega-Charizard Y. There are few available resists, electric types often have the speed advantage, and pivoting creates opportunities for dangerous threats to come in safely. Even teams using Mega-Zard X can struggle with Electric, as Charizard cannot switch in un-megaevolved (which would also sacrifice your ground immunity) and is a wincondition you usually can't afford risking.252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 188-224 (61.8 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 210-248 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Tyranitar: 296-352 (73.2 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 160-189 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2 in Sun: 240-283 (64.1 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 240 HP / 216+ Def Mandibuzz: 222-262 (52.7 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 240 HP / 216+ Def Mandibuzz in Sun: 333-393 (79 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 192-226 (63.3 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega in Sun: 288-339 (95 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Luckily, Alola-Wak is able to switch into and/or check almost every Electric type in the metagame including Zapdos, Magnezone, Tapu Koko, Thundurus-T, Thundurus-I (without Knock Off), Galvantula, and Alola-Raichu. An immunity, unlike a resist (Rotom-Heat), to Volt Switch means Alola-Marowak can consistently generate momentum against Fairy, Electric, and Flying monotypes without letting threats like Dragonite, Alola-Golem, or Landorus-T be pivoted into safely.
Finally, Alola-Marowak can offer minor utility in Stealth Rocks, allowing Torkoal to run another move such as Clear Smog or Solarbeam. The Fighting- and Normal-type immunities can be helpful as well, forcing 50/50s with threats like Diggersby and spin-blocking.
Considering these assets, I nominate B-rank for Alola-Marowak on Fire.
Agree with everything except maybe Salamence on Dragon, care to explain why it rose up from B to A? Also ABOUT TIME Mega Gyarados rose to A Rank. >_>Here's long awaited update
Quick things to note
- Mega Beedrill will start of at D on both Bug and Poison, if it progressively gets better we'll rank it higher.
- Please avoid biased nominations. Nominations, such as I use this Pokemon on my teams will not be tolerated. This is your warning
Poison
Muk-Alola A--->S
Mega Beedril Unranked--->D
Amoonguss Unranked--->D
Salazzle B--->C
Dragon
Salamence B--->A
Guzzlord C--->D
Exeggutor-Alola D--->Unranked
Dark
Guzzlord C--->D
Umbreon B--->C
Ghost
Gengar A--->S
Doublade A--->B
Decidueye B--->C
Grass
Decidueye B--->C
Exeggutor-Alola C--->Unranked
Fire
Talonflame B--->C
Flying
Landorus-Therian A--->S
Salamence C--->B
Thundurus-Therian B--->C
Tornadus-Therian B--->C
Water
Toxapex S--->A
Manaphy A--->S-This will be discussed more later, but the continued dominance of Rain Dance Waterium Z Manaphy can't be ignored.
Mega Gyarados B---->A
Bug
Buzzwole B--->A
Mega Beedrill Unranked--->D
Rock
Mega Aerodactyl B--->A
Golem-Alola C--->B
Fighting
Conkeldurr B--->C
Psychic
Necrozma B--->C
Deoxys-S B--->A
Raichu-Alola D---> Unranked
Cresselia D--->C
Bruxish D--->Unranked
Normal
Swellow C--->B
Drampa B--->C
Steel
Bisharp A--->B
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Salamence is dragon's best dd user and dragonium/firium (with fire fang) allow it to break through walls and sweep with moxie.
this is what ive been using:
Salamence (M) @ Dragonium Z / Firium Z
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang
- Outrage
it's better at dd than dnite because of better speed (seriously, dnite even at +1 is still pretty slow), and it also allows you to use dd dnite which still steamrolls most defensive cores if you click coverage moves. mence also happens to have a whopping 1 more attack than dnite, so that's there too.
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Whimsicott A --> B (Grass)
This is in part due to mechanical changes made in Sun and Moon that undercut Whimsicott, such as Paralysis only halving speed rather than quartering it or the introduction of powerful Z-moves for sweepers that ignore encore. But more importantly there are several metagame trends that make Whimsicott less valuable of an asset this generation. For one, the three matchups where Whimsicott performed best, i.e. Dark, Fighting, and Dragon, are now all mid- to low-tier types and are far less relevant / common than they were in ORAS. Many of the threats Whimsicott helps Grass check are either pretty uncommon, such as Terrakion and Mega Sableye, or aren't even legal for the Gen 7 meta, like Mega Medicham, Mega Gallade, and Hoopa-U. Also, Whimsicott's matchups against the current high-tier types are mediocre at best and it becomes more of a liability than a valuable teammate.
While the cottonball is still fast and can check frail threats with STAB Moonblast and Giga Drain, Whimsicott lacks the coverage and power to have an offensive presence in most matchups. Although Prankster Stun Spore can help cripple and/or scare out fast offensive threats like Victini, there are a healthy supply of defensive Pokemon on any given type that can switch into and take advantage of Whimsicott such as Zapdos, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Magnezone, Alolan Muk, Scizor(-Mega), Klefki, etc.
As a result, Whimsicott can be easily managed by top types like Fairy or Psychic. Against disadvantageous matchups like Steel, Bug, Fire, Flying, or Poison, Whimsicott is largely dead weight and can only offer minor fringe utility: occasionally scaring out offensive threats like Nihilego with Stun Spore or potentially disabling sweepers like Mega Scizor with Encore.
The only relevant matchups where Whimsicott puts in meaningful work are Ground, Water, and Electric which is purely based off of its Grass typing. Whimsicott still offers appealing speed control, utility, and Fairy STAB, but it simply doesn't offer enough in most matchups compared to other Pokemon on Grass.
With that in mind, I nominate Whimsicott for B-rank on Grass.
Kommo-O B --> A (Fighting)
Dragon typing grants Kommo-O valuable Fire, Water, Grass, and Electric resists that, combined with meaty 75/125/105 defenses, make Kommo-O an excellent compliment to bulky offensive Fighting teams. Electric resist in particular is important, as Fighting lacks sturdy Electric Sponges besides Chesnaught.
Most importantly, Kommo-O is one of the strongest special attackers at Fighting's disposal. Its signature move, Clanging Scales, is a strong, spammable special Dragon STAB that, alongside Focus Blast and good coverage options in Flamethrower and Flash Cannon (Poison Jab / Earthquake for mixed), put out considerable offensive pressure. Sets include Life Orb with 4 Attacks, 3 Attacks + Automatize, or Choice Specs, all of which can be useful in aiding Fighting. You could even run Choice Scarf to give Terrakion the room to run Double Dance Rockium Z, an incredibly potent win-condition / wallbreaker. In addition to its Special set, Kommo-O is also capable of running a physical spread with the various setup options it has. Whether you want to run Dragon Dance for consistent Attack and Speed boosts, Double Dance with Autotomize and either Swords Dance, or even Belly Drum, Kommo-O is a versatile and powerful asset to Fighting teams.
With strong mixed offensive potential and helpful typing / bulk, Kommo-O performs admirably in most matchups besides Fairy. The impact is particularly noticeable against Poison, a type that typically walls Fighting teams effortlessly, by 2HKOing Toxapex and Mega-Venusaur with LO/Specs Clanging Scales, besides Alolan Muk. However, Kommo-O's use extends beyond breaking Poison's defensive core and his brand of bulky offense is broadly effective in the metagame.
I nominate Kommo-O for A-rank on Fighting
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I politely disagree with this suggestion, and I believe it is my job to reiterate the points on why Whimsicott is still one of Grass most viable choices.Whimsicott earned a name for itself on Grass with its unique blend of speedy offense and anti-setup utility. STAB Moonblast offered Grass a valuable offensive response to Dragon-, Fighting-, and Dark-type threats/teams back in ORAS, three mid- to high-tier types at the time mind you, and Prankster Encore / Stun Spore helped disable dangerous setup sweepers. Whimsicott is also very fast, especially for Grass-types, which when combined with Prankster Stun Spore provided Grass with strong speed control. All these assets earned Whimsicott an A-rank in ORAS; however, in Sun and Moon Whimsicott struggles to operate nearly as effectively.
Whimsicott A --> B (Grass)
First, Gen 7 brought with it several small changes to game mechanics that undercut Whimsicott's capacity to check threats.
Second, there are several metagame trends that make Whimsicott less valuable of an asset this generation. For one, the three matchups where Whimsicott performed best, i.e. Dark, Fighting, and Dragon, are now all mid- to low-tier types and are far less relevant / common than they were in ORAS. Many of the threats Whimsicott helps Grass check are either pretty uncommon, such as Terrakion and Mega Sableye, or aren't even legal for the Gen 7 meta, like Mega Medicham, Mega Gallade, and Hoopa-U. Also, Whimsicott's matchups against the current high-tier types are mediocre at best and it becomes more of a liability than a valuable teammate.
- Paralysis now only reduces the target's speed by 50%, down from 75%, which makes it less effective for checking speed boosting threats such as Mega Charizard X or Volcarona.
- The introduction of Z-moves made Whimsicott less reliable for disabling setup, as these powerful attacks ignore move-locking effects such as Encore. This leaves Whimsicott horribly susceptible against sweepers that use Z-moves such as Dragonite, Salamence, Volcarona, Landorus-T, and Magearna.
- Dark-types are now immune to Prankster. A minor nerf overall, sure, considering Whimsicott can handle most Dark-types with Moonblast, but it means Whimsicott is forced out by Greninja and can't disable bulkier dark types like Mandibuzz, Tyranitar, or Alolan Muk.
While the cottonball is still fast and can check frail threats with STAB Moonblast and Giga Drain, Whimsicott lacks the coverage and power to have an offensive presence in most matchups. Although Prankster Stun Spore can help cripple and/or scare out fast offensive threats like Victini, there are a healthy supply of defensive Pokemon on any given type that can switch into and take advantage of Whimsicott such as Zapdos, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Magnezone, Alolan Muk, Scizor(-Mega), Klefki, etc. As a result, Whimsicott can be easily managed by top types like Fairy or Psychic. Against disadvantageous matchups like Steel, Bug, Fire, Flying, or Poison, Whimsicott is largely dead weight and can only offer minor fringe utility: occasionally scaring out offensive threats like Nihilego with Stun Spore or potentially disabling sweepers like Mega Scizor with Encore.
The only relevant matchups where Whimsicott puts in meaningful work are Ground, Water, and Electric which is purely based off of its Grass typing. Whimsicott still offers appealing speed control, utility, and Fairy STAB, but it simply doesn't offer enough in most matchups compared to other Pokemon on Grass.
With that in mind, I nominate Whimsicott for B-rank on Grass.
While it is true that the the new paralysis mechanics affected Whimsicott's potential to check offensive threats, it remains as a staple largely due to its ability to check setup sweepers and help your team with momentum as it can stop nearly every setup sweeper in the game, especially if they get a free switch on defensive oriented Pokemons like Cradily or Ferrothorn, regardless of the position they have taken. For instance, it can immediately stop a Pokemon like Mega-Scizor or a Mega-Pinsir from setting up on fodders and therefore easily sweeping your team at any stage of the game.
This is my main issue with your reasoning, as what has been said here is completely untrue. Whimsicott is consistently effective at many matchups at once, reason of why it remained in A rank for so long. The above examples on Mega-Pinsir and Mega Scizor I provided state that, even on matchups which Whimsicott doesn't provide raw damage output, it can still be reliable on its support role because it can prevent an incoming sweep from happening. Grass's bad overall momentum means threats have an easier time getting around the right Pokemon to setup, and Whimsicott provides an amazing response to all these cases. I know I have been saying this quite a lot in this single post, but it is important to note that Grass reliance on defensive strategies means it is usually susceptible against bulkier setup sweepers or even fast attackers (take Scarf Victini for example), which despite Stun Spore's nerf, are still crippled by the status move.
Wait, what??? I don't believe this was actually brought up. Sorry if this looks rude, but Grass teams don't really struggle vs any of those threats, and if anything, Whimsicott can handle most of those Dark Pokemon really well. Mandibuzz was always immune to Stun Spore because of Overcoat, so this is another invalid statement which doesn't bring anything to the table (not to mention Whimsicott already 2HKOes it with Moonblast anyways, so it would be really pointless to paralyze a wall in first place). It is outsped by Greninja but its teammates can already handle it really well, so this isn't really a reason to drop it either.
In short, Whimsicott handles most Dark types well just as it did last generation, it is your wincondition for this matchup and can easily clean weakened Dark teams later on the game.
I think you are underestimating Whimsicott's damage potential a lot here. It does get decent coverage moves in Psychic and Shadow Ball, allowing it to check several Poison and Psychic threats to a certain extent (for instance, it can OHKO Gengar after Stealth Rocks damage). The special attack isn't particularly good but it is enough to take down weakened teams late game, even with moves lacking STAB. Those traits, combined with its great 116 base speed, allows it to act as a good cleaner and an amazing offensive support for its team. Most switchins you mentioned here don't matter because they are natural counters to most Grass pokemon anyway, so it is not like replacing Whimsicott would make mons like Celesteela easier to deal with.
Lastly, Whimsicott provides a source of Fairy damage, which ensures your team is not instalosing to the likes of Mega-Sableye. It can also check Fighting and Dragon threats, which is an additional utility to what Whimsicott is meant to do. Just because Fighting and Dragon became less common on ladder doesn't mean Whimsicott got worse, because these Pokemon may show in other types as well. (think stuff like Garchomp on Ground or Lati@s in psychic).
This shows that, contrary to your belief, Whimsicott is more useful to much more matchups as you would expect it to perform well. I still think it completely should stay in A for the reasons stated above, it is just a really solid offensive support on which it is worth considering most of the time. If there's anything you feel like that was said wrong feel free to reply to this post and I will happily clarify it for you.
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iLlama
Nothing personal, I protect my people
Mega Pinsir is a pretty terrible example because honestly, why would it even setup when there's a Whimsicott still available on the other team? It just blows up Grass's defensive core. The only way Whimsicott has a fighting chance is by trying to some how bait the Mega Pinsir to setup on your hard switch in, because there's no way you're free switching into an attack, which is going to be a tad difficult to do since it 2HKOes all of Grass with Return/CC so there's pretty much no reason to setup until late-game. Then the Bug team can switch into pretty much anything else and not care about anything Whimsicott tries to do to Mega Pinsir. Regarding Mega Scizor, you again depend on a hard switch in with Whimsicott where the Mega Scizor SDs. Sure this is easier to get since Mega Scizor is likely to setup on a Ferrothorn but your so called "setup sweeper check" doesn't check Mega Scizor if it decides to attack. Now you're basically left with a Pokemon to fodder off because Whimsicott either took so much damage that it's now worthless in the matchup or you died to entry hazards, because there's pretty much no way hazards won't be up unless the Bug team is running Defog Mega Scizor. Then again, if Mega Scizor uses Bug Bite you're getting 2HKOed and if it used U-turn the Bug team just gets a favorable matchup anyways. The paralysis mechanic doesn't matter that much, I agree, but if it does anything it makes Whimsicott worse. Something like scarf Tapu Bulu with Stone Edge for Mega Pinsir and just a regular Mega Venusaur set for Mega Scizor are already better checks than Whimsicott and both of those aforementioned Pokemon are pretty standard slots on Grass teams.
Could you please mention these matchups? I skimmed over the whole post and I don't see anything about newly mentioned matchups besides paralyzing a Choice Scarf Victini, which Tyke mentioned via "...Stun Spore provided Grass with strong speed control."
Could you please give examples of setup sweepers in relevant matchups that Whimsicott is great for crippling, because other than the Pokemon Tyke already mentioned, I'm struggling to find any.
I agree with Whimsicott beating Mandibuzz since that's pretty obvious. Grass gets destroyed by Greninja. There's no argument you could possibly provide that show otherwise. The only Pokemon that can comfortably check Greninja is Mega Venusaur if Greninja isn't carrying Extrasensory, which a lot of Greninja on Dark teams do since even before the banning of Hoopa-U. With Stealth Rock LO Greninja Extrasensory is a 2HKO, but then again, I guess Dark as 5 other Pokemon to use that can back it up since it cleans your team. Dark also has Alolan Muk so ORAS Grass's amazing check to Dark teams is now effectively useless.
Lol
Psychic and Shadow Ball on Whimsicott are so bad and why would you want a x4 weak to Poison mon attacking Poison for pitiful damage? Just use Celebi.
Dude, your whole argument past Encore/Stun Spore is Whimsicott can hit things super effectively with Moonblast. You're actually colluding things that Tyke said about being good against irrelevant types as though that's exactly what Grass needs. We aren't talking about Low Tier Monotype, we're talking about Monotype. Grass beats Fighting without Whimsicott so idk why this is here. Dragon can get ousped by Whimsicott, sure. Dragon also has Kyurem-B which beats almost anything Grass has, plus if the Dragon team has Dragalge and you're hoping Psychic Whimsicott can take care of it, then I can't help you. The fact that the matchups Whimsicott was good for aren't as prevalent anymore does in fact mean Whimsicott is worse. You're basically saying in general it's going to be pretty useless now, but it still has these three matchups where it doesn't change anything significant. I don't know what you're saying by mentioning Garchomp for Ground and Lati@s for Psychic. Do you think that they aren't useful in matchups anymore or something? I really don't feel like getting into why that argument is so incorrect.
Yeah, have fun using Celebi and then getting EASILY countered by Alola-Muk and Pursuit trapped. Hope you know it easily sponges Earth Power with its large special bulk, and not to mention it is still a 50/50 because you have to predict its switch to get the upper hand. Psychic was never a bad option on Whimsicott, it had pretty good succesfull last generation and so it can work this gen, it can take down weakened Poison types later on the game and if you really think they are so bad then I can assure you have never used it yourself enough.
I hope you are kidding here, right? I really can't see how you are supposed to beat Fighting when both Buzzwole and Kommo-o are massive threats for the type. If you think this matchup is easy because Mega-Medicham is banned then I am certain that you are mistaken.
Care to explain how Greninja destroys Grass? Unless if it is a dedicated counter for Grass teams, Greninja has a really hard time getting past both Ferrothorn and Mega-Venusaur at the same time. And please don't tell me Hidden Power Fire + Extrasensory + Ice Beam is common because it is a really restricted moveset as most Greninja usually carry Dark and Water moves.
You asked, I give you: Gyarados, Volcarona, Salamence, and Garchomp (on Ground) are all worth mentioning options. Feel to disagree with a VALID ARGUMENT, though.
Eien: Removed the flaming. Please don't attack another person instead of his/her arguments.
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Whimsicott earned a name for itself on Grass with its unique blend of speedy offense and anti-setup utility. STAB Moonblast offered Grass a valuable offensive response to Dragon-, Fighting-, and Dark-type threats/teams back in ORAS, three mid- to high-tier types at the time mind you, and Prankster Encore / Stun Spore helped disable dangerous setup sweepers. Whimsicott is also very fast, especially for Grass-types, which when combined with Prankster Stun Spore provided Grass with strong speed control. All these assets earned Whimsicott an A-rank in ORAS; however, in Sun and Moon Whimsicott struggles to operate nearly as effectively.
Whimsicott A --> B (Grass)
This is in part due to mechanical changes made in Sun and Moon that undercut Whimsicott, such as Paralysis only halving speed rather than quartering it or the introduction of powerful Z-moves for sweepers that ignore encore. But more importantly there are several metagame trends that make Whimsicott less valuable of an asset this generation. For one, the three matchups where Whimsicott performed best, i.e. Dark, Fighting, and Dragon, are now all mid- to low-tier types and are far less relevant / common than they were in ORAS. Many of the threats Whimsicott helps Grass check are either pretty uncommon, such as Terrakion and Mega Sableye, or aren't even legal for the Gen 7 meta, like Mega Medicham, Mega Gallade, and Hoopa-U. Also, Whimsicott's matchups against the current high-tier types are mediocre at best and it becomes more of a liability than a valuable teammate.
While the cottonball is still fast and can check frail threats with STAB Moonblast and Giga Drain, Whimsicott lacks the coverage and power to have an offensive presence in most matchups. Although Prankster Stun Spore can help cripple and/or scare out fast offensive threats like Victini, there are a healthy supply of defensive Pokemon on any given type that can switch into and take advantage of Whimsicott such as Zapdos, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Magnezone, Alolan Muk, Scizor(-Mega), Klefki, etc.
As a result, Whimsicott can be easily managed by top types like Fairy or Psychic. Against disadvantageous matchups like Steel, Bug, Fire, Flying, or Poison, Whimsicott is largely dead weight and can only offer minor fringe utility: occasionally scaring out offensive threats like Nihilego with Stun Spore or potentially disabling sweepers like Mega Scizor with Encore.
The only relevant matchups where Whimsicott puts in meaningful work are Ground, Water, and Electric which is purely based off of its Grass typing. Whimsicott still offers appealing speed control, utility, and Fairy STAB, but it simply doesn't offer enough in most matchups compared to other Pokemon on Grass.
With that in mind, I nominate Whimsicott for B-rank on Grass.
Gotta agree w/ Juleo on this one. I think he covered the majority of why Whimsicott deserves it's A-ranking on Grass.
There are several 'mons across all typings that Whimsicott helps put a stop to. A few that I think haven't really been specifically mentioned that I think might should have been would be Togekiss, Buzzwole, Mega Char Y, Gliscor, Landorus-I, etc.
Sure there are other Pokemon that can help put these Pokemon down, some may even do a better job on specific threats, but Whimsicott has the potential to cover a larger majority of threats while still providing the additional support and/or offensive pressure.
For instance Rotom-Mow and Even Bulu can hardly provide the kind of team support/offense that they do with out a choice scarf, which can be incredibly limiting.
Serperior has far less coverage in both offense and support than Whimsicott and is still lacking in power until you get a few leaf storm boosts first.
Dhelmise...
Why the heck is that thing still in B rank? But seriously?
Now of course if you compare it to Breloom or Cradily and how prominent of an influence they are to a grass team, Whimsicott will fall a little short, but that's just how amazing Cradily and Breloom are. Nothing to do w/ Whimsicott's faults.
It's just hard for me anyways to understand why we would demote Whimsicott when it has (especially for me anyways) and still does prove to be better than the B rank 'mons and currently another A rank 'mon. If Whimsicott were to be demoted to B, I'd have to say that Bulu should be too. But I don't think Whimsicott should be and whether Bulu should is debatable.
Tell me if you'd like some elaboration on anything either I or Juleo had mentioned, b/c i'm not as good at explaining things all at once.
Let me preface by saying that I don't feel strongly for dropping or keeping Whimsicott's rank. However, the quality of some of the last few posts has just not been there. So, I'll deconstruct juleocesar's argument as an example of what sorts of examples are not useful when discussing viability in this thread.
Please try to speak only about concrete and relevant examples and not hand wave away very real arguments.
Cases like using this example "Shadow Ball OHKOes Gengar after Stealth Rock" aren't really grounded in reality when Grass fails to set or preserve Stealth Rock reliably against either type Gengar is used on. Furthermore, Shadow Ball isn't a viable set in the first place.
something like "Buzzwole and Kommo-O are massive threats for the type" is similarly false. Buzzwole is walled and removed by Mega Venusaur, which often carries Hidden Power Fire, while Kommo-O has to play 50/50 games the whole time, loses to Protect from Ferrothorn and Synthesis from Mega Venusaur, and would lose to pretty much any other offensive Grass-type threat too.
These examples are seemingly useful but don't actually support the overarching argument. In the first case, the situation presented is rare and difficult to create in the first place. So, while technically true, it just doesn't matter when you're actually playing the game outside of theorymons. And the second case is just false from the beginning.
Also, regarding Psychic and Shadow Ball more specifically, though, I'll quote my original rebuttal for this from your ORAS analysis of Whimsicott that still holds true now:
Again, I'm not really making an argument for or against Whimsicott, but I hope this post helps you see what kinds of examples you should and shouldn't be using.
Remember: the key is not to have countless examples but to have relevant examples that apply outside of theorymons when you're playing in a real battle.
Finally, please attack each other's argument, not each other as people. I don't want to see flaming again.
Please try to speak only about concrete and relevant examples and not hand wave away very real arguments.
Cases like using this example "Shadow Ball OHKOes Gengar after Stealth Rock" aren't really grounded in reality when Grass fails to set or preserve Stealth Rock reliably against either type Gengar is used on. Furthermore, Shadow Ball isn't a viable set in the first place.
something like "Buzzwole and Kommo-O are massive threats for the type" is similarly false. Buzzwole is walled and removed by Mega Venusaur, which often carries Hidden Power Fire, while Kommo-O has to play 50/50 games the whole time, loses to Protect from Ferrothorn and Synthesis from Mega Venusaur, and would lose to pretty much any other offensive Grass-type threat too.
These examples are seemingly useful but don't actually support the overarching argument. In the first case, the situation presented is rare and difficult to create in the first place. So, while technically true, it just doesn't matter when you're actually playing the game outside of theorymons. And the second case is just false from the beginning.
Also, regarding Psychic and Shadow Ball more specifically, though, I'll quote my original rebuttal for this from your ORAS analysis of Whimsicott that still holds true now:
Here's another case of bringing up examples that are true in theory but fall apart in reality: Whimsicott is hardly stopping Mega Pinsir, Volcarona, or Salamence, when none of them really need to set up to sweep in the first place or can use a Z-Move to ignore your Encore. So, while Whimsicott can technically hard switch into Mega Pinsir and Volcarona, risking being OHKOed by whatever STAB move they would almost always choose to use, to Encore them as they set up, in reality that's not something that ever really happens for obvious reasons (losing Whimsicott for free).
Again, I'm not really making an argument for or against Whimsicott, but I hope this post helps you see what kinds of examples you should and shouldn't be using.
Remember: the key is not to have countless examples but to have relevant examples that apply outside of theorymons when you're playing in a real battle.
Finally, please attack each other's argument, not each other as people. I don't want to see flaming again.
iLlama
Nothing personal, I protect my people
Look man, I'm not trying to attack you, but your argument in support of Whimsicott is pretty mediocre. All your points discuss the previous generation and this rebuttal is barely defending Whimsicott at all. You're just trying to say why everything else I said is stupid or something like that. I really can't tell.
Alolan Muk hard counters both Celebi and Whimsicott, so I fail to see the point in mentioning it. Celebi is way better against Poison than Whimsicott. You can't refute that with "this one Pokemon can counter it," especially when everything on Poison beats Whimsicott. The only argument in this bit is "Psychic wasn't a bad option on Whimsicott in ORAS."
I'm sorry, but this is the entire basis of your argument; "it was good last gen so it's also good this gen." This isn't ORAS, this is SUMO.
Alolan Muk hard counters both Celebi and Whimsicott, so I fail to see the point in mentioning it. Celebi is way better against Poison than Whimsicott. You can't refute that with "this one Pokemon can counter it," especially when everything on Poison beats Whimsicott. The only argument in this bit is "Psychic wasn't a bad option on Whimsicott in ORAS."
How does Fighting break Mega Venusaur without Psychic STAB exactly? Spam Banded Flare Blitz Infernape, Banded Buzzwole, and Hawlucha I guess? BandNape has a 9% chance of 2HKOing if Mega Venu hard switches into it, but Infernape KOes itself with recoil damage in the meantime. Banded Buzzwole can't 2HKO Mega Venusaur and Hawlucha isn't a relevant Pokemon. I'm sorry, but I don't see how Grass loses this matchup without using unconventional sets on Fighting's part that realistically aren't viable when concerning the overall meta or having Hawlucha.
What standard Greninja doesn't run Ice Beam + HP Fire? Actually, what standard Greninja on Dark doesn't run Gunk + Ice Beam + HP Fire? I get that you love Grass teams and main the type, but I feel like you don't know this meta and the Pokemon that well. Greninja doesn't need to run Dark- and Water-type attacks just because that's its typing. This alludes back to how you constantly mention things from the ORAS meta as your argument. This is a different generation.
Tyke mentioned all these Pokemon already as things that Whimsicott can be used to check, and yet, still lose to.
I'm not going to say Whimsicott is necessarily better than Celebi in the poison match up, but it hasn't lost use in this match up. I think Juleo's point was that Whimsicott can't easily be pursuit trapped by Muk like Celebi can. Just to provide some examples of what Whimsicott can do against poison:
Edit: Sorry 'bout that, accidentally put in the wrong calc, so psychic doesn't quite 2 shot Venusaur, but it's enough to put the pressure on. (all calcs listed at the end)
Venusaur is no longer a safe switch in. Of course there's still Muk, but that's why we mentioned that Whimsicott can't be pursuit trapped.
Toxapex isn't taking it that well either considering it can't really do anything back to Whimsicott. And this is full SpD investment. I'm not sure what Toxapex actually runs on mono poison.
In regards to Crobat, Celebi probably does more damage, but Whimsicott can do a decent chunk to Crobat and, if it's the bulky variant, Whimsicott outspeeds more often than Celebi can if Celebi has no scarf. And again, Idk exactly what bulky Crobat's investments are, but I'm adding a calc for that too because Crobat is Grass's biggest threat when facing poison and is the hardest to take down. On top of that, once Psychic has been revealed and Venusaur is no longer a switch-in option, Crobat and others are more open to stun spore.
As for everything else, Whimsicott can outspeed and finish them after some chip damage has occurred.
And Keep in mind that this is just one match up. Even if Celebi is technically better in this match up, Whimsicott can still do a decent job when played right and do even better in most other match ups.
A few things to keep in mind would be that Kommo-o hard walls Mega Venusaur and gives it possible set up opportunity.
I've run across a few different Buzzwole sets, so i'm not sure which to call standard, but mega venusaur doesn't handle bulk up buzzwole all that well either, and can be left severely crippled if it even manages to get rid of it.
And am I the only one that prefers a Bulky Offensive Venusaur over the Defense invested one?
Anyways, both Whimsicott and Celebi can take out Buzzwole, but Whimsicott can counter Kommo-o better thanks to encore and dragon immunity, as well as outspeed things like infernape, specs keldeo, and, if required, switch in on a Buzzwole's Leech life making a bit of a safer option over ferrothorn in case of a superpower.
Not gonna quote the thing about Greninja. Greninja doesn't really ohko anything on grass and is frail. Breloom mach punches and ohko's, if you ice beam cradily you catch a rock slide, Venusaur can live an extrasensory if he must take one and hit hard right back, Scarfed Bulu outspeeds, scarfed Rotom outspeeds, all while hazards are being played and switches are being forced and what not. Yeah. Greninja makes itself known, but I wouldn't say it's that big a threat.
Although, Whimsicott can't do shit to greninja. That is true. But you don't need it to since the rest of standard grass can and kind of makes this irrelevant.
"Tyke mentioned all these Pokemon already as things that Whimsicott can be used to check, and yet, still lose to." < In regards to Gyarados, Volcarona, Salamence, and Garchomp
Whimsicott doesn't lose to Gyarados or Garchomp at all unless Gyarados is actually running ice fang and has a dragon dance/sub up or garchomp is scarfed w/ poison jab (or max hp w/ poison jab, but that's never really an issue). It does lose to the z-move versions of Salamence and Volcarona, which I understand are a lot more common now, but that still puts them at risk of stun spore. everything else you'd replace whimsicott w/ still lose to these 'mons as well anyways b/c they naturally hard check grass. Whimsicott at least provides a possible way to stop them that no other 'mon does.
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Psychic vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 151-179 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 101-122 (33.2 - 40.1%) -- 27.8% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Crobat: 164-195 (43.8 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 101-122 (33.2 - 40.1%) -- 27.8% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Crobat: 164-195 (43.8 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
(I hope this isn't too messy of a post)
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Tyke 's points are fair, especially if you're using an ORAS set. The shift in types commonly seen on ladder matters, and whimsicott for the most part flat out sits in the corner most of the game. If you're running a newer set accompanied by teammates that take advantage of whimsicotts strengths then I would vote for it to be A rank, otherwise in whimsi's slot most teams would be better off running shiftry or gourgeist or SOMETHING to make grass vs psychic bearable. Ban victini! B rank is fine, it says whimsicott is good but isn't necessarily on every team for a reason.
This isn't particularly true, Grass can set Stealth Rock relatively easy and its means of hazard removal are something you can play around, Gengar has a hard time to switch in those intervals thanks to its somewhat poor bulk and risking take heavy damage. And also, I was referring to Psychic to OHKO Gengar in this specific case, due to its sightly higher damage than that of Shadow Ball's. Even if you don't consider the latter a good option, you should know Whimsicott isn't meant to OHKO stuff with its coverage move, but rather weaken the opposing team or maybe even clean later on the game.
The calcs you provided should be enough to weaken or take down weakened Pokemon later on the game, Victini is usually 2HKOed which means it can come in relatively easier and dish out decent damage after it has taken down something with V-create. The calcs you provided are an example of ''theorymoning'' calcs because you aren't supposed to OHKO those targets anyway, and if you can make a good use of this damage I can assure you Whimsicott does a pretty good job in the matchup. Examples like Mew walling Whimsicott aren't valid arguments either because they lack offensive responses, if they choose to Roost they will just be encored and eventually be forced to switch to something else anyway. Jirachi was the most reliable calc provided but even still I am not sure if it runs Specially defensive spreads, and if anything you should be handling it with Ferrothorn just fine (still got to be careful with the U-turn, though).
I will have to disagree with you here, Buzzwole Bulk Up sets are threatening as Crimson Torrent mentioned in his posts, and Kommo-O, although it doesn't always carry a setup move, it has a hard time to be taken down by Mega-Venusaur thanks to its immunity to Sludge Bomb (Bulletproof). Both of them can eventually put a dent in your team and Whimsicott does an amazing job preventing their setups and can provide more momentum by forcing switches and applying pressure to the opposing Fighting side. Kommo-o doesn't have to play 50/50 with Ferro because it doesn't really run High Jump Kick as its main attacking option, meanwhile Ferrothorn struggles to do anything back because of its good bulk and Bulletproof.
All those examples I mentioned actually apply to practice, and not just theorymoning. I don't want to be arrogant here but the fact I have been using Whimsicott a lot shows that I have been into most realistic situations and I know how to effectively handle them. Z-Moves aren't used that often on the mons you mentioned so I don't think it would be a valid argument bringing this up (it is more of a tournament thing, if anything).
Even if you are OHKOed by any of those threats, it means you are preventing instalosing the matchup because the threats I mentioned earlier are capable of decimating Grass teams with a single boost/setup. The examples are relevant because preventing setup sweepers is an extremely valuable asset for the type, thanks to its bad momentum which gives your opponent an ease to correctly position themselves in battle and consequently sweeping your team.
About flaming: The idea wasn't really to attack the person, but rather he made some insulting posts regarding myself and I just don't want see it happening again. We could discuss this later somewhere if you want.
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Nominating Guzzlord (Dragon) D > Unranked
Guzzlord's Qualities
223 HP looks really nice on paper, but it is offset by its base 53 defenses, meaning that, without investment, Guzzlord is not really that bulky at all. This would be forgivable if its speed did it any favors, but unfortunately the only thing Guzzlord has a remote chance of speed creeping is Shuckle. On some types, base 101 and 97 attack stats would be workable, but Guzzlord is a dragon type. As a result, it attacking stats pale in comparison to its peers.
Guzzlord's typing offers it very little in the defensive utility department. Dark/Dragon only provides two extra resistances to ghost and dark and one immunity to psychic. This would be nice if it didn't have two significant caveats. First of all, it means Guzzlord is weak to Bug, Fighting, Dragon, Ice, and most importantly, a 4x weakness to Fairy. Given that Fairy and Fairy-type coverage is very common, as well as holding weaknesses to other common attacking types, Guzzlord is hard pressed to find Pokemon that cant wallop it super-effectively, which is very easy since Guzzlord is pretty much always going to go second. Second of all, most self-respecting Dragon teams already use Hydreigon, which brings similar STAB coverage in a package with all around higher stats. Using both is generally a liability because it stacks that lovely 4x Fairy weakness when Dragons already struggle to deal with fairies as it is.
Guzzlord's Movepool
The list of Guzzlord's viable moves is as follows:
The list of moves that one could consider running on Guzzlord is as follows:
Crunch
Dragon Claw
Dragon Tail
Earthquake
Hammer Arm
Heavy Slam
Poison Jab
Stone Edge
Stockpile
Substitute
Toxic
Draco Meteor
Fire Blast
Sludge Wave
While Guzzlord's movepool looks really nice on paper, Guzzlord is significantly hampered by two factors in terms of its offensive movepool. First of all, it finds itself doing the same damage, with maximum investment, as uninvested peers such as Garchomp, Hydreigon, and Latios. Guzzlord's movepool gives it few coverage options that wouldn't just be done better on a different mon. Hydreigon provides Dark coverage much better than Guzzlord can, Dragalge provides Poison with the added bonus of a poison typing and Adaptability, Ground and Fire coverage is found on a variety of pokemon such as Kyurem-Black, Salamence, Dragonite, Hydreigon, and Garchomp. If you're so desperate for Steel coverage you're turning to Guzzlord for it's often-base-120 Heavy Slam (which is actually a god tier meme) you should significantly reconsider your teambuilding process. On the other end of the spectrum,
Guzzlord's status movepool is weak at best, and it has no boosting moves outside of Stockpile and no reliable recovery. These flaws derail any possible potential Guzzlord could have to occupy a support role like Latias.
Guzzlord Sets
When considering offensive Guzzlord sets, Guzzlord's poor damage when compared to its peers is best remedied with a Choice Band/Specs/
I primarily use split defenses to maximize overall bulk so Guzzlord can actually live to hit something.
For example:
0 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 128 Def Guzzlord: 108-127 (18.3 - 21.6%) -- possible 5HKO
0 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Guzzlord: 132-156 (20.3 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
It also helps Guzzlord lose less bulk to hazards. Of course, you can feel free to concentrate more on one defensive stat versus another.
Guzzlord @ Choice Band/Assault Vest
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 128 Def / 128 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Crunch
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
Guzzlord @ Normalium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 128 Def / 128 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stockpile
- Crunch
- Dragon Claw
- Heavy Slam
For example:
0 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 128 Def Guzzlord: 108-127 (18.3 - 21.6%) -- possible 5HKO
0 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Guzzlord: 132-156 (20.3 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
It also helps Guzzlord lose less bulk to hazards. Of course, you can feel free to concentrate more on one defensive stat versus another.
Guzzlord @ Choice Band/Assault Vest
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 128 Def / 128 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Crunch
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
Guzzlord @ Normalium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 128 Def / 128 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stockpile
- Crunch
- Dragon Claw
- Heavy Slam
Guzzlord's Peers
Even in the D rank, I find it hard to think of a reason I would use Guzzlord over one of its peers. Druddigon, Haxorus, Noivern, and Turtonator all possess qualities that Guzzlord wishes it could have. Druddigon can utilize a decent physically defensive lead set with Glare, which provides valuable para spreading and Stealth Rocks. Unlike Druddigon, Guzzlord has no unique support role. Haxorus has a wide movepool, Mold Breaker, and a decent statline, and although it does find itself outclassed by other setup dragons it is good in a vacuum. Noivern is fast and has access to high power options like Draco Meteor, Boomburst, and Hurricane to offset its lower Special Attack. Its high speed also allows Noivern to be comfortable with running a Specs set without having to worry about living hits. Unlike Haxorus and Noivern, Guzzlord's offensive capabilities are pathetic. Turtonator has a unique (and great) typing that provides neutrality to Fairy and Ice as well as decent stopping power from a base 130 Special Attack. Guzzlord has few things of note besides its 223 HP, which, as previously mentioned, is offset by its very low base defenses. Unlike Turtonator, Guzzlord's typing provides little defensive utility for the team.
In Conclusion
Guzzlord's statline is lackluster at best, and Dark/Dragon typing proves itself to be more of a liability than anything else as it does Guzzlord, and the team as a result, no favors. Guzzlord's movepool looks serviceable until you realize its attached to Guzzlord, and it is outdamaged by the rest of the team with no investment. Guzzlord doesn't provide any unique coverage to the type, as Ground-, Steel-, Fire-, Rock-, Dragon-, and - usually - Poison- and Dark-type coverage is commonly found on Dragon teams. Guzzlord's defensive and support movepool is weak and Guzzlord struggles to perform any roles outside of offense as a result. I also find Guzzlord to be worse than its peers in the D tier, as at least they have some sort of redeeming quality.
Honestly, when I was screwing around with Eviolite Shelgon in Gen 6 it felt more useful to me than Guzzlord. It at least had a niche it could occupy. Guzzlord has none. Guzzlord is so thoroughly outclassed in offense, defensive utility, and its nonexistent support that I cannot fathom a single reason you would want to put Guzzlord on your team outside of shitty memes. As a result, I believe Guzzlord should be unranked.
tl;dr I am nominating Guzzlord for unranked not because it is one of the worst, if not the worst, mons Dragon could consider to put on a team, but because it so thoroughly outclasses the rest of the type that it doesn't need a rank to explain how viable it is.
Well here's my two cents on the whole Beedrill thing. Admittedly, I am a little sentimental in my viewpoints (particularly in the latter argument) because I have a mild affinity for mega Beedrill; it's fast, it hits reasonably hard and it's good at what is does (specifically, to set up toxic spikes), at least in Gen VI.
BUG RANK (D)
BUG RANK (D)
To be honest, mega Beedrill is absolutely worthless in bug, especially considering so many powerful bug pokemon that rival or outright surpass any benefits that Mega Beedrill may provide (particularly scollipede who it shares a type and niche with). Bug is a type filled with so many phsyical and special attackers (ie. Heracross, Scizor (both base and mega evolved), Volarona, Buzzwole, M-Pinser, the aforementioned Scollipede, Yanmega, Durant and, to some extent, Vikavolt) and so many set-up leads (Scollipede once more, Galvantula, Shuckle and lest we forget Forretress) that Mega Beedrill is practically outclassed by the every pokemon in the S, A and B ranks and struggles to be viable enough to be a C rank mon.
Beedrill’s movepool is pretty shallow with a few good moves that it can utilise giving it a very niche role as a U-turner (which is done much better by banded scizor) in addition to the previously mentioned roles. Beedrill also has medicore defences, making it more likely to be OHKO’d by priority or by faster pokemon. Furthermore, Beedrill’s bug weaknesses aren’t mitigated by its poison typing (making it severely allergic to SR) and it’s poison type further hampers it defensively (giving it neutrality to ground and a crippling weakness to M-Alakazam). While double resistances to fighting and grass as well as resistances to bug, poison and fairy are an appreciated perk they are not a convincing selling point for anything higher than D.
All in all, I really don’t see next to no reason why it should be any rank higher than D.
POISON RANK (D ---> C)
Beedrill fairs surprisingly well in poison (on paper at least). It’s perhaps the fastest, unboosted poison pokemon available and has an excellent base 150 attack, allowing it to effectively sweep given support – which is poison’s specialty. I rarely use poison teams and poison type pokemon in general – save for Crobat, Drapion, Alolan Muk and Mega Venusaur– so most of my arguments for M-Beedrill’s C rank would be based on Arash’s arguments as well as counterpoints raised by Shadestep.
Personally, Beedrill is more suited for its role in poison teams rather than in bug teams due to the defensive nature of most poison teams. With minimal competition, I believe that Mega Beedrill can do well in poison teams
For Mega-Beedrill's offensive use, refer to Arash's comment; he expressed it perfectly
There are two main draw backs to this would be the loss of Mega Venusaur and further competition from Scollipede. Mega Venusaur is an essential component in many poison teams as it performs roles that would otherwise require an entire team to perform, such as a check to both electric and water teams, a leech seeder and a bulky tank. It also provides support to Toxapex who would otherwise be threatened by ground type attacks. Sacrificing all of these benefits for a semi-decent attacker would be pointless.
How Mega Beedrill Stacks Up Against Scollipede
I briefly touched upon how Scolipede outclasses M-Beedrill in my previous argument. However, Scollipede does everything that M-Beedrill does, if not better. For brevity, I’ll list them:
· Scollipede has access to an item and passive recovery through leftovers
· Scollipede can learn Earthquake and Megahorn which provide more damage and more reliability than Drill Run and X-scissor (respectively)
· On the subject of moves, Scollipede has a much deeper movepool than M-Beedrill allowing it to fulfill more productive roles.
· Speed Boost > Adaptability
· Scollipede is a lot more bulkier and can withstand more attacks and is a lot harder to OHKO
· U-turn may turn the tables for M-Beedrill, who may receive additional damage through Rocky Helmet + Iron Barbs/Rough Skin combo commonly found on ground, dragon, grass and steel teams. Scollipede has Baton Pass allowing it to pass on its speed and substitution.
· Tailwind vs Speed Boost SubPass (comparison)
Scollipede performs all these roles without sacrificing a mega evolution in both Bug and Poison teams.
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Just a minor point but Baton Pass is banned in monotype so that isn't a relevant plus that scolipede has over beedrill. I feel you've missed something in your sum in the form of what threats scolipede actually checks that beedrill cannot such as Charizard Y, Victini and Megados to name a few.
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