Resource Monotype SM Viability Rankings

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Decem

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Dhelmise (Ghost) B=>S (Or at least A)
In the past week or so there are three pokemon that I have seen on every ghost team that I have gone up against. They are Gengar, Mimikyu, and Dhelmise. Dhelmise is the only one of these that is not S tier. Dhelmise has above average attack and defense for fully evolved ghost types as well as average hp, special attack, and special defence. Although its speed is horrible it can be put into a trick room team. Along with this it also has an amazing ability in steelworker which essentially gives this pokemon an extra STAB without any drawbacks. Dhelmise is just an outstanding pokemon overall and deserves way better than to just be in B tier.

Alright so, no offense, but Dhelmise sucks. It gets hard walled by a lot of things, with no recovery to back its longlivity up. The only thing it can do is spin, which isn't that popular since you have a handy - dandy hazard control tool in Mega - Sableye. Its only real niche is the TR team, which STILL isn't huge enough to bump it up to A. I do not have replays of Dhelmise, since I have tried it early in the meta and have found Gourgeist much more useful as a Grass/Ghost mon.
 

Acast

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Dhelmise (Ghost) B=>S (Or at least A)
In the past week or so there are three pokemon that I have seen on every ghost team that I have gone up against. They are Gengar, Mimikyu, and Dhelmise. Dhelmise is the only one of these that is not S tier. Dhelmise has above average attack and defense for fully evolved ghost types as well as average hp, special attack, and special defence. Although its speed is horrible it can be put into a trick room team. Along with this it also has an amazing ability in steelworker which essentially gives this pokemon an extra STAB without any drawbacks. Dhelmise is just an outstanding pokemon overall and deserves way better than to just be in B tier.
Alright so, no offense, but Dhelmise sucks. It gets hard walled by a lot of things, with no recovery to back its longlivity up. The only thing it can do is spin, which isn't that popular since you have a handy - dandy hazard control tool in Mega - Sableye. Its only real niche is the TR team, which STILL isn't huge enough to bump it up to A. I do not have replays of Dhelmise, since I have tried it early in the meta and have found Gourgeist much more useful as a Grass/Ghost mon.
You're both going to the extreme ends of the spectrum.

To Rolyat44, a pokemon's usage on a type does not always correlate to its place in the viability rankings. Specifically in monotype, the viability rankings are a measure of how necessary each pokemon is on a type. If you're trying to decide whether a pokemon should be S rank, you don't ask yourself "Is this pokemon on every Ghost team?" You ask yourself "Should this pokemon be on every Ghost team?" If the answer is yes, it probably belongs in the S rank. You simply listed Dhelmise's good qualities without mentioning what it does for Ghost teams. I love using Dhelmise on my team, but it's not irreplaceable like Mimikyu and Gengar are. In addition, it faces competition from the other Ghost/Grass types (Gourgeist and Decidueye).

To decem I agree that Dhelmise should not move up in the rankings, but saying it sucks is hugely underestimating it. Mega Sableye is a form of hazard control, but I wouldn't call it reliable. Mega Sab is heavily reliant on prediction if you want it to keep hazards away. Not to mention Sableye has other more important roles to play, such as being a wincon or stallbreaking. Dhelmise is a much more reliable, more dedicated hazard control option that you can be a little more carefree with than you can with Mega Sableye. I'm not saying it's better or worse than Gourgeist or Decidueye, but I wouldn't say it sucks in the slightest.
 

Decem

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You're both going to the extreme ends of the spectrum.

To Rolyat44, a pokemon's usage on a type does not always correlate to its place in the viability rankings. Specifically in monotype, the viability rankings are a measure of how necessary each pokemon is on a type. If you're trying to decide whether a pokemon should be S rank, you don't ask yourself "Is this pokemon on every Ghost team?" You ask yourself "Should this pokemon be on every Ghost team?" If the answer is yes, it probably belongs in the S rank. You simply listed Dhelmise's good qualities without mentioning what it does for Ghost teams. I love using Dhelmise on my team, but it's not irreplaceable like Mimikyu and Gengar are. In addition, it faces competition from the other Ghost/Grass types (Gourgeist and Decidueye).

To decem I agree that Dhelmise should not move up in the rankings, but saying it sucks is hugely underestimating it. Mega Sableye is a form of hazard control, but I wouldn't call it reliable. Mega Sab is heavily reliant on prediction if you want it to keep hazards away. Not to mention Sableye has other more important roles to play, such as being a wincon or stallbreaking. Dhelmise is a much more reliable, more dedicated hazard control option that you can be a little more carefree with than you can with Mega Sableye. I'm not saying it's better or worse than Gourgeist or Decidueye, but I wouldn't say it sucks in the slightest.
when i said it sucked i meant it sucked comparing to the rest of the A and S ranked mons. Just a clarification.
 

Decem

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Mega Steelix
(Unranked) --> (B) or (C)

This thing definitely does not fit in the A rank, since it only has a couple of niches and isn't really a threat in the current meta. It does take a horn leech from bulu though. It does nice damage in sand, doing a considerable amount to mega scizor, and other Pokémon, due to sand force. If you're that desperate for an azu check, you could keep in unevolved to finish off azumarill with sturdy. Heavy slam does a lot, though, and it can whittle down teams with dragon tail.
 

6ti

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Mega Steelix
(Unranked) --> (B) or (C)

This thing definitely does not fit in the A rank, since it only has a couple of niches and isn't really a threat in the current meta. It does take a horn leech from bulu though. It does nice damage in sand, doing a considerable amount to mega scizor, and other Pokémon, due to sand force. If you're that desperate for an azu check, you could keep in unevolved to finish off azumarill with sturdy. Heavy slam does a lot, though, and it can whittle down teams with dragon tail.
sorry for this being a 1 liner but what type is this lol + wouldnt u rather use roar over dtail? nd both types both have better options for phazing so why would u use it anyway
 

Decem

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sorry for this being a 1 liner but what type is this lol + wouldnt u rather use roar over dtail? nd both types both have better options for phazing so why would u use it anyway
I mean mega Sableye exists so
 

Alakazam C --> B or A rank (Psychic)
I really don't think it can be overstated how effective the Sash-Counter Alakazam set is in this metagame saturated with offense, and it is wholly deserving of at least B-ranking for it's ability to blanket check such threats in the tier.

It can single-handedly check almost every physical threat to Psychic in this meta with Magic Guard + Focus Sash guaranteeing a free hit to attack or use Counter: including Mega-Sharpedo, Excadrill, Muk-Alola, Mega-Scizor, Mega-Pinsir, Azumarill, etc. This defensive utility is extremely handy for gaining momentum as even when it cannot kill, it can at least force out threats. Independent of Sash-Counter utility, Alakazam is a strong and fast attacker with an enviable 120 speed stat. These assets make it extremely handy on offensive psychic teams teams utilizing cores such as Z-Move Mew and Band Victini.

There is the opportunity cost of Mega-Alakazam, another potent countermeasure for offense, that may keep it from being A-rank, but Sash-Zam is definitely worthy of at least B-ranking for it's incredible utility.
 
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Why is primarina unranked in both fairy and water? Is it that worse than azu?
Its unranked because there's no real reason to run it in any situation as it outclassed as a special attacker by tapu koko and as a water/fairy by azu and tapu fini respectively.
 
Why is primarina unranked in both fairy and water? Is it that worse than azu?
This will probably be deleted for being a one-liner, but for what's it worth Primarina definitely should be ranked on both Water and Fairy.

Primarina is a potent special attacker with solid offensive and defensive utility. It has great typing that gives it two of the most spammable STABs in the game and make it very, very difficult to switch into safely. Primarina also has excellent coverage options in Energy Ball and Psychic that help it deal with opposing Water and, most notably, Poison, since Life Orb / Choice Specs is capable of 2HKOing both Toxapex and Mega-Venusaur with Psychic and Alola Muk is unable to trap it effectively as it is 3HKOd by Hydro Pump and Primarina resists Pursuit.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Psychic vs. 232 HP / 80 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 252-298 (70.1 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 234-276 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 153-181 (37.1 - 43.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 214-253 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 169-199 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 180 SpD Zapdos: 228-268 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 207-244 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 324-384 (92 - 109%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 171-202 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Primarina's stat distribution is similar to Sylveon and performs the same role as a slow, powerful wallbreaker with good Special Defense. But Primarina has arguably better typing both offensively and defensively and objectively better coverage options: it's an strong wallbreaker.

Neither Water nor Fairy really has the room to utilize Primarina, and both types have special attackers who are more faster or more flexible (Koko, Greninja, Magearna). But I don't think it is "outclassed" at what it does on either type except by arguably Magearna's specs set. Azumarill and Tapu Fini both perform completely different roles, so the comparison isn't justified.

Primarina has a niche; a niche that I feel earns it at least a C-rank on both types, potentially B-rank for Fairy.
 
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This will probably be deleted for being a one-liner, but for what's it worth Primarina definitely should be ranked on both Water and Fairy.

Primarina is a potent special attacker with solid offensive and defensive utility. It has great typing that gives it two of the most spammable STABs in the game and make it very, very difficult to switch into safely. Primarina also has excellent coverage options in Energy Ball and Psychic that help it deal with opposing Water and, most notably, Poison, since Life Orb / Choice Specs is capable of 2HKOing both Toxapex and Mega-Venusaur with Psychic and Alola Muk is unable to trap it effectively as it is 3HKOd by Hydro Pump and Primarina resists Pursuit.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Psychic vs. 232 HP / 80 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 252-298 (70.1 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 234-276 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 153-181 (37.1 - 43.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 214-253 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 169-199 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 180 SpD Zapdos: 228-268 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 207-244 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 324-384 (92 - 109%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 171-202 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Primarina's stat distribution is similar to Sylveon and performs the same role as a slow, powerful wallbreaker with good Special Defense. But Primarina has arguably better typing both offensively and defensively and objectively better coverage options: it's an strong wallbreaker.

Neither Water nor Fairy really has the room to utilize Primarina, and both types have special attackers who are more faster or more flexible (Koko, Greninja, Magearna). But I don't think it is "outclassed" at what it does on either type except by arguably Magearna's specs set. Azumarill and Tapu Fini both perform completely different roles, so the comparison isn't justified.

Primarina has a niche; a niche that I feel earns it at least a C-rank on both types, potentially B-rank for Fairy.
Okay maybe I was harsh in saying it shouldn't be ranked. So ill give it a more lengthy post this time.

On water: I would argue that on primarina is outclassed by greninja in the pure special attacker role since not only does it have coverage that coverage gets made better with protean and if you specifically want a bulky special attacker manaphy is 100% better for water since it's naturally faster and in exchange for a slight amount of bulk he loses the weaknesses that come with fairy, which is pretty cool since he gets to switch in to a lot more. Sure it gets rid of fairy stab, but everything fairy stab hits water doesn't struggle with as it is. Of course primarina still has great special attack and good bulk so id say maybe D or C on water in my opinion.

On fairy: I cant find a reason to use primarina over specs magearna at all unless you want to free up your magearna set. Even then I dont see a reason to use it since its not only a role I dont think fairy really needs, but its also so easily filled by magearna that I dont see a reason to use primarina to fill that role on fairy. Sure its strong and has bulk but even if its base stats were better and it had better coverage magearna would still outclass any set it could use simply by being steel type. I say keep it maybe D or C

Tl/dr: it's not that it's an inherently bad Mon, but in my opinion there is no reason to use it over the multiple Superior options on both types. D-C on both imo

PS: the reason I compared primarina and azu/tapu fini is because they share a type. Even though they preform different roles, they wouldn't really work together because of the shared weaknesses and stabs. Therefore it's more likely you would take only one of those mons and primarina is the last I would take anyday
 
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Okay maybe I was harsh in saying it shouldn't be ranked. So ill give it a more lengthy post this time.

On water: I would argue that on primarina is outclassed by greninja in the pure special attacker role since not only does it have coverage that coverage gets made better with protean and if you specifically want a bulky special attacker manaphy is 100% better for water since it's naturally faster and in exchange for a slight amount of bulk he loses the weaknesses that come with fairy, which is pretty cool since he gets to switch in to a lot more. Sure it gets rid of fairy stab, but everything fairy stab hits water doesn't struggle with as it is. Of course primarina still has great special attack and good bulk so id say maybe D or C on water in my opinion.

On fairy: I cant find a reason to use primarina over specs magearna at all unless you want to free up your magearna set. Even then I dont see a reason to use it since its not only a role I dont think fairy really needs, but its also so easily filled by magearna that I dont see a reason to use primarina to fill that role on fairy. Sure its strong and has bulk but even if its base stats were better and it had better coverage magearna would still outclass any set it could use simply by being fairy type. I say keep it maybe D or C

Tl/dr: it's not that it's an inherently bad Mon, but in my opinion there is no reason to use it over the multiple Superior mons on both types. D-C on both imo
I don't think it's fair to compare Primarina to S-ranked special attackers on either type: of course it's not better than Greninja or Magearna.

You could make the same unfavorable comparisons regarding most B- and C-ranked pokemon on Water and (especially) Fairy. They're all "outclassed". They all have the opportunity cost of one of the more broadly effective S- and A-ranked pokemon. That's why they're B-C ranked.
 
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I don't think it's fair to compare Primarina to S-ranked special attackers on either type: of course it's not better than Greninja or Magearna.

You could make the same unfavorable comparisons regarding most B- and C-ranked pokemon on Water and (especially) Fairy. They're all "outclassed". They all have the opportunity cost of one of the more broadly effective S- and A-ranked pokemon.
The difference is that even though the b ranked mons are outclassed, they have a notable niche that makes them usable. For example: nidoking on ground. It is probably not the best mon to run, but it helps beat threats like celesteela and zapdos. Whereas primarina on fairy does literally the EXACT same thing as specs magearna, and its not a niche if a mon does the exact same thing but better in every way.

Edit: primarina might have some sort of niche on water but definitely not on fairy.
 
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Haaku

Banned deucer.
With the reintroduction of Mega Medicham, Fighting mono players can finally rejoice! It's now the single most neccessary Pokemon on Fighting in my opinion, so I got comments on it.


Mega Medicham (Fighting): ??? -> S
Medicham is the single greatest wallbreaker on Fighting, and arguably the greatest wallbreaker in all of Monotype, even. With a decent speed tier of 100 and an equivalent attack stat of 249, Mega Medicham hits extremely hard and very little has the ability to switch into it. With Pure Power and an Adamant nature, it reaches 656 attack. Combine this with a ridiculously strong STAB move in High Jump Kick as well as excellent coverage and decent priority, and you have yourself a Pokemon nothing short of terrifying and necessary. The Psychic type is very handy as well, allowing it to live things like Psyshock/Psychic from Scarf Latios (A huge threat) and OHKO it back with Ice Punch. The shortcomings of Mega Medicham, which are mainly the lack of sufficient bulk and speed, are patched up by its teammates (Sweepers like Scarf Terrakion and utility Pokemon like Cobalion). There's a pretty long list of things Fighting monos absolutely hate to face, and Mega Medicham reduces that list drastically, dealing with (or severely weakening/denting):


Because of these reasons, Mega Medicham's overall added usefulness to Fighting should reward it with nothing less than S rank.
 
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Alakazam C --> B or A rank (Psychic)
I really don't think it can be overstated how effective the Sash-Counter Alakazam set is in this metagame saturated with offense, and it is wholly deserving of at least B-ranking for it's ability to blanket check such threats in the tier.

It can single-handedly check almost every physical threat to Psychic in this meta with Magic Guard + Focus Sash guaranteeing a free hit to attack or use Counter: including Mega-Sharpedo, Excadrill, Muk-Alola, Mega-Scizor, Mega-Pinsir, Azumarill, etc. This defensive utility is extremely handy for gaining momentum as even when it cannot kill, it can at least force out threats. Independent of Sash-Counter utility, Alakazam is a strong and fast attacker with an enviable 120 speed stat. These assets make it extremely handy on offensive psychic teams teams utilizing cores such as Z-Move Mew and Band Victini.

There is the opportunity cost of Mega-Alakazam, another potent countermeasure for offense, that may keep it from being A-rank, but Sash-Zam is definitely worthy of at least B-ranking for it's incredible utility.
now that megacham is released, the opportunity cost argument is thrown out the window and I agree Zam should be A-rank on Psychic. Alolan Muk dies if it tries to attack this thing, which is something Psychic really appreciates...
 
I just realized that there haven't been any nominations for Mega-Pidgeot or Mega-Audino yet :o

I was dismissive of Bird Jesus earlier when it was announced, but Mega-Pidgeot is a bit better than I initially thought. The main asset Pidgeot brings to the table is it's high speed, something most normal builds are lacking in right now. 121 speed is good, letting Mega-Pidgeot outspeed most of unboosted metagame excepting Greninja, Tapu Koko, and some more uncommon threats like Mega-Dactyl. With this speed Mega-Pidgeot is able to check a broad range of pokemon with more flexibility than other options on normal, including offensive threats like Mega-Medicham and Keldeo that Normal struggles with otherwise. Hurricane is extremely spammable, and the confusion chance is high enough to be an asset. Heat Wave hits Steel-types that resist hurricane, and it can pivot out of walls it can't break with U-turn.

Mega-Pidgeot also offers some utility that I didn't consider initially: Defog can be used to take pressure off of Staraptor for hazard removal, Work Up is an options to help break balanced builds like Poison and Water, and Tailwind is a very dangerous tool against offense, especially if paired with wallbreakers like Band / LO diggersby or Specs Meloetta. But Bird Jesus has it's problems.

It's not exceptionally strong, so won't be able to guarantee OHKOs on bulkier threats. And it isn't exceptionally bulky, so it can be taken out by threats it can't KO, and a weakness to rocks means Mega-Pidgeot can be difficult to sustain throughout a match. The main issue, however, is that it has the opportunity cost of one of the other more broadly effective pokemon on Normal, such as Meloetta, Porygon-Z, or Diggersby. Normal Teams don't have much flexibility with their teamslots right now, IMO.

Nonetheless Mega-Pidgeot is strong and has it's uses, especially on more offensive normal builds that can benefit from the momentum and utility it provides.

I nominate Mega-Pidgeot for B-rank on Normal.


Audino's an odd duck; she's superbly bulky with some solid utility but is often too passive to fit onto any Normal build outside pure Stall.

Normal / Fairy typing grants Audino a neutrality to Fighting-type attacks, which is very helpful for Normal, and Audino-Mega's 103/126/126 defenses are nothing to sneeze at either; she can take heavy punishment and keep on chugging with Wish / Tect or Restalk. Access to Knock Off lets Mega-Audino pester opposing teams and with Wish and Heal Bell she acts as a solid cleric. However, I'd argue what holds back Audino is (A) the lack of a useful defensive ability, obviously, since Healer is worthless in singles and (B) the lack of decent offensive presence. Audino-M is simply too passive and too easy to take advantage of by both offensive and defensive threats, even compared to Chansey. The reliance on Wish / Tect creates opportunities for opponents to exploit, and Audino can end up hurting more than helping if you aren't careful.

All that said, she's still a defensive tank and can fit onto more stallish normal builds who can support her with teammates to manage the threats that take advantage of her. But I don't see Mega-Audino having use outside this niche (and suboptimal) build any time soon.

I nominate Mega-Audino for C-rank on Normal.
 
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I actually think M-Audino should be B. Neutrality to fighting is always nice but the main reason why I think it should go to B because it can switch into Physical Thundurus, which completely bodies Chansey-Pory2-Raptor-Bewear with just one set. It can also survive a Mega Medicham HJK and do some good damage back with Dazzling Gleam, and of course it has protect to play mind games. Yes, M-Audino is not a check, but it at least is better than Pory and Chansey in that regard. It also makes an okay switch in to Keldeo which is important because Sacred Sword can 2HKO Pory2 with rocks and it is not a contact move so Bewear can't tank it.

It also has Calm Mind to give it some bite, so it isn't super passive. However, it does kind of bog down Normal teams because you basically have at least three, if not four bulky, slow mons at that point with not much speed.
 
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I actually think M-Audino should be B. Neutrality to fighting is always nice but the main reason why I think it should go to B because it can switch into Physical Thundurus, which completely bodies Chansey-Pory2-Raptor-Bewear with just one set. It can also survive a Mega Medicham HJK and do some good damage back with Dazzling Gleam, and of course it has protect to play mind games. Yes, M-Audino is not a check, but it at least is better than Pory and Chansey in that regard. It also makes an okay switch in to Keldeo which is important because Sacred Sword can 2HKO Pory2 with rocks and it is not a contact move so Bewear can't tank it.

It also has Calm Mind to give it some bite, so it isn't super passive. However, it does kind of bog down Normal teams because you basically have at least three, if not four bulky, slow mons at that point with not much speed.
First thing is Thundurus-I is irrelevant it shouldn't be used on Electric or imo flying. Also living a High Jump Kick From medi and not being able to ko in return isnt exactly helpful your better off with using pid which just plays the sacking game with fighting until you lose.
 
First thing is Thundurus-I is irrelevant it shouldn't be used on Electric or imo flying. Also living a High Jump Kick From medi and not being able to ko in return isnt exactly helpful your better off with using pid which just plays the sacking game with fighting until you lose.
I actually see it quite often in the mid ladder range on electric teams, not so much flying. It is B rank on the VR, so it really can't be that irrelevant? I don't know, Physical Thundurus is extremely dangerous to your average normal team, and as far as I know the only other thing that electric has against Normal (or really, chansey) is Raichu-A, and that is only if it is carrying Nasty Plot. Even if it does, Ditto can just clean after/if chansey goes down.

And honestly, Pidegot takes over 50% from Mega-Medi Bullet Bunch and Stealth Rock. It also isn't cleaning fighting anytime soon because of Fake Out and Bullet Bunch. It also doesn't really help with Grass either because it is walled by Cradily.

Besides, I'm not saying that Audino was a reliable answer, but what the heck can take a HJK from Mega Medi on Normal? Nothing except Audino and a full HP Staraptor. That is a niche in and of itself imo.
 
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6ti

your mom lol
is a Contributor Alumnus
I actually see it quite often in the mid ladder range on electric teams, not so much flying. It is B rank on the VR, so it really can't be that irrelevant?
electric rn doesnt really have the room for thundurus, it generally needs koko, alolachu, rotomw, zapdos, golem and last slot is magnezone/xurkitree.

I don't know, Physical Thundurus is extremely dangerous to your average normal team
Now this isn't entirely untrue because you can't just assume thundy will be physical (as in you switch chansey into it and eat a superpower) but phys thundy loses to p2 assuming p2 doesn't switch into it. also it can knock off p2 which is annoying, but if just keep recovering and you beat it 1 on 1.
252 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 161-192 (43 - 51.3%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
Ice beam 2hkos it.

and as far as I know the only other thing that electric has against Normal (or really, chansey) is Raichu-A, and that is only if it is carrying Nasty Plot. Even if it does, Ditto can just clean after/if chansey goes down.
for starters np is bad + chansey has a chance to live a +6 modest lo focus, and 3hkos it with seismic toss.

edit: used wrong spread, physdef doesnt live

And honestly, Pidegot takes over 50% from Mega-Medi Bullet Bunch and Stealth Rock. It also isn't cleaning fighting anytime soon because of Fake Out and Bullet Bunch. It also doesn't really help with Grass either because it is walled by Cradily.
fwiw medi on fighting shouldn't use bp, that was specifically for diancie. fake stabs tpunch is the best set atm

As for where i think audino should be, I haven't actually tried it yet, but C seems like a good start. I'd rather use ditto, pz, or even pidgeot over it.
 
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electric rn doesnt really have the room for thundurus, it generally needs koko, alolachu, rotomw, zapdos, golem and last slot is magnezone/xurkitree.



Now this isn't entirely untrue because you can't just assume thundy will be physical (as in you switch chansey into it and eat a superpower) but phys thundy loses to p2 assuming p2 doesn't switch into it. also it can knock off p2 which is annoying, but if just keep recovering and you beat it 1 on 1.
252 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 161-192 (43 - 51.3%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
Ice beam 2hkos it.


for starters np is bad + chansey has a chance to live a +6 modest lo focus, and 3hkos it with seismic toss.


fwiw medi on fighting shouldn't use bp, that was specifically for diancie. fake stabs tpunch is the best set atm

As for where i think audino should be, I haven't actually tried it yet, but C seems like a good start. I'd rather use ditto, pz, or even pidgeot over it.
Err... Chansey definitely does not live a +6 Focus Blast: +6 252+ SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 767-905 (108.9 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 614-723 (95.6 - 112.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

But that is really besides the point.

On electric teams you need to assume Thund is physical because I would think that would be the reason to use it. What other decent physical attackers does Electric have? Golem is mostly there for just stealth rock and doesn't outspeed anything, and Tapu Koko is checked by Bewear anyway (and Pory2 if there are no hazards). It is also the only thing electric has that can provide Knock off support as well. I would never switch chansey into a thundurus because that means Raichu-A will just win later with Knock Off damage and no eviolite.

The fact that Pory2 can 1v1 is moot because Thundurus would have already killed something and can just U-turn to do it again. Considering how almost everything on electric is carrying volt switch or U-turn you can't double switch...it doesn't solve the problem (also not accounting for the fact that not every single p2 has ice beam)

Pory2 cannot switch into Thundurus at all, and Life Orb is not an item Thundurus carries, it mostly carries Z-Fly to OHKO Bewear. Knock Off - SuperPower - Fly - Uturn seems to be the most common, and after a single knock off Pory2 will get 2HKO'd by Thundurus and then proceed to walk all over the rest of normal.

No one also commented on Audino-M being a decent switch in to Keldeo, possibly the best one that normal has right now.
 

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So mostly been making dumb anti meta teams, but from what I experienced Pidge is great and Audino just can't fit that same role. Normal really just can't rely on this weird checking scenarios where maybe this one mon if it doesn't have to switch in can 1v1 whatever random wallbreaker is on the table, but that's not terribly practical. Normal's defensive core just isn't built to handle certain mons, the fact that Audino can beat them one on one doesn't help if they play smart and get them in on the more passive or slow members of the normal team. Whether or not it can take down a physical thundurus is beside the point, how much does that really add to Normal? I like Pidge a lot because it gives the type some immediate speed and power that's just more reliable than one of its random decently powered scarfers and gives Normal a bit of a chance to fight back, Audino is more like sacking something to bring it in on their Mega Medicham which doesn't accomplish much. If you want to prove people wrong, replays where it puts in work are going to be the best way to show it handling these threats that you've listed in practice rather than on paper.

Also I want to bring up the possibility of Salamence from B to A on Flying. I'm not totally sold myself but mence is an interesting mon, DD and Scarf are both very pressuring in their own right and I've had a lot of fun messing with offensive Defog and Corkscrew Crash (or both on the same set) as an option for more offensive Flying teams that don't want to bother with passive things like Defog Mantine. DD is a bit more threatening at first than dual dance lando, but mence faces strong competition there and I haven't seen anybody else playing with non scarf or DD Z-Fly set so it's a bit of a weird nom. I do really like Mence though so figured it's worth bringing up. Didn't really bother saving replays from my time with it but if people think the nom has merit I might go get some.
 
Also I want to bring up the possibility of Salamence from B to A on Flying. I'm not totally sold myself but mence is an interesting mon, DD and Scarf are both very pressuring in their own right and I've had a lot of fun messing with offensive Defog and Corkscrew Crash (or both on the same set) as an option for more offensive Flying teams that don't want to bother with passive things like Defog Mantine. DD is a bit more threatening at first than dual dance lando, but mence faces strong competition there and I haven't seen anybody else playing with non scarf or DD Z-Fly set so it's a bit of a weird nom. I do really like Mence though so figured it's worth bringing up. Didn't really bother saving replays from my time with it but if people think the nom has merit I might go get some.
Not going to make a full post. However, I would mention that I think Dragon Dance + Supersonic Skystrike is not very good in Monotype. I'd personally rather use Devastating Drake and carry two coverage moves. I would actually agree with Salamence being a more threatening Z-move setup sweeper than Landorus-T, but Landorus-T's unpredictability and wide range of utility and sets does give it an edge. I originally suggested it to move to B and was actually struggling at the time with whether it was good enough to be A. I'm glad others are seeing that it does have merit and checking out its potential. I'm still not sure whether it should be A either, but if you could get replays, that would actually be really helpful!

I haven't tried offensive Defog, since I just usually toss Defog onto Choice Scarf Togekiss or Mega Charizard Y on HO Flying teams, but that sounds like an interesting idea. Mind sharing the set?
 
Err... Chansey definitely does not live a +6 Focus Blast: +6 252+ SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 767-905 (108.9 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 614-723 (95.6 - 112.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

But that is really besides the point.

On electric teams you need to assume Thund is physical because I would think that would be the reason to use it. What other decent physical attackers does Electric have? Golem is mostly there for just stealth rock and doesn't outspeed anything, and Tapu Koko is checked by Bewear anyway (and Pory2 if there are no hazards). It is also the only thing electric has that can provide Knock off support as well. I would never switch chansey into a thundurus because that means Raichu-A will just win later with Knock Off damage and no eviolite.

The fact that Pory2 can 1v1 is moot because Thundurus would have already killed something and can just U-turn to do it again. Considering how almost everything on electric is carrying volt switch or U-turn you can't double switch...it doesn't solve the problem (also not accounting for the fact that not every single p2 has ice beam)

Pory2 cannot switch into Thundurus at all, and Life Orb is not an item Thundurus carries, it mostly carries Z-Fly to OHKO Bewear. Knock Off - SuperPower - Fly - Uturn seems to be the most common, and after a single knock off Pory2 will get 2HKO'd by Thundurus and then proceed to walk all over the rest of normal.

No one also commented on Audino-M being a decent switch in to Keldeo, possibly the best one that normal has right now.
So, to sum up your point, Mega-Audino is a decent response to two pretty uncommon threats, Keldeo and Thundurus?

That doesn't seem like enough to rank it higher than C, considering how competitive teamslots are on normal right now.
 
So, to sum up your point, Mega-Audino is a decent response to two pretty uncommon threats, Keldeo and Thundurus?

That doesn't seem like enough to rank it higher than C, considering how competitive teamslots are on normal right now.
In what world is Keldeo uncommon? Its on basically every single fighting team and gets its far share on water as well. The fighting sample team we have features keldeo as well. It is not uncommon. Thundurus is less common, but still popular on the ladder and it is still a good threat. In fact, the normal sample team gets dumpstered by it, so even well constructed teams can fall to it.

It is not just those two as well. It's a better check to Breloom than Staraptor as they fall to Rock Tomb. Breloom is very common on both Grass and Fighting. Hydro Pump Mega Sharpedo is dangerous to both Staraptor and Bewear, although it can be dealt with Pory2 as long as it has thunderbolt and Knock Off Gliscor (even with Ice Beam, pory2 is still losing eviolite and Raptor does nothing back) come to mind,

Here is recent replay of it doing work against your average fighting team: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-562160040
 
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