Resource Monotype SM Viability Rankings

[Lilymoding]

EDIT: Specificity and grammar

Well here's my two cents on the whole Beedrill thing. Admittedly, I am a little sentimental in my viewpoints (particularly in the latter argument) because I have a mild affinity for mega Beedrill; it's fast, it hits reasonably hard and it's good at what is does (specifically, to set up toxic spikes), at least in Gen VI.



BUG RANK (D)​

To be honest, mega Beedrill is absolutely worthless in bug, especially considering so many powerful bug pokemon that rival or outright surpass any benefits that Mega Beedrill may provide (particularly scollipede who it shares a type and niche with). Bug is a type filled with so many phsyical and special attackers (ie. Heracross, Scizor (both base and mega evolved), Volarona, Buzzwole, M-Pinser, the aforementioned Scollipede, Yanmega, Durant and, to some extent, Vikavolt) and so many set-up leads (Scollipede once more, Galvantula, Shuckle and lest we forget Forretress) that Mega Beedrill is practically outclassed by the every pokemon in the S, A and B ranks and struggles to be viable enough to be a C rank mon.


Beedrill’s movepool is pretty shallow with a few good moves that it can utilise giving it a very niche role as a U-turner (which is done much better by banded scizor) in addition to the previously mentioned roles. Beedrill also has medicore defences, making it more likely to be OHKO’d by priority or by faster pokemon. Furthermore, Beedrill’s bug weaknesses aren’t mitigated by its poison typing (making it severely allergic to SR) and it’s poison type further hampers it defensively (giving it neutrality to ground and a crippling weakness to M-Alakazam). While double resistances to fighting and grass as well as resistances to bug, poison and fairy are an appreciated perk they are not a convincing selling point for anything higher than D.


All in all, I really don’t see next to no reason why it should be any rank higher than D.

POISON RANK (D ---> C)​

Beedrill fairs surprisingly well in poison (on paper at least). It’s perhaps the fastest, unboosted poison pokemon available and has an excellent base 150 attack, allowing it to effectively sweep given support – which is poison’s specialty. I rarely use poison teams and poison type pokemon in general – save for Crobat, Drapion, Alolan Muk and Mega Venusaur– so most of my arguments for M-Beedrill’s C rank would be based on Arash’s arguments as well as counterpoints raised by Shadestep.

Personally, Beedrill is more suited for its role in poison teams rather than in bug teams due to the defensive nature of most poison teams. With minimal competition, I believe that Mega Beedrill can do well in poison teams

For Mega-Beedrill's offensive use, refer to Arash's comment; he expressed it perfectly

There are two main draw backs to this would be the loss of Mega Venusaur and further competition from Scollipede. Mega Venusaur is an essential component in many poison teams as it performs roles that would otherwise require an entire team to perform, such as a check to both electric and water teams, a leech seeder and a bulky tank. It also provides support to Toxapex who would otherwise be threatened by ground type attacks. Sacrificing all of these benefits for a semi-decent attacker would be pointless.

How Mega Beedrill Stacks Up Against Scollipede​

I briefly touched upon how Scolipede outclasses M-Beedrill in my previous argument. However, Scollipede does everything that M-Beedrill does, if not better. For brevity, I’ll list them:

· Scollipede has access to an item and passive recovery through leftovers

· Scollipede can learn Earthquake and Megahorn which provide more damage and more reliability than Drill Run and X-scissor (respectively)

· On the subject of moves, Scollipede has a much deeper movepool than M-Beedrill allowing it to fulfill more productive roles.

· Speed Boost > Adaptability

· Scollipede is a lot more bulkier and can withstand more attacks and is a lot harder to OHKO

· U-turn may turn the tables for M-Beedrill, who may receive additional damage through Rocky Helmet + Iron Barbs/Rough Skin combo commonly found on ground, dragon, grass and steel teams. Scollipede has Baton Pass allowing it to pass on its speed and substitution.

· Tailwind vs Speed Boost SubPass (comparison)

Scollipede performs all these roles without sacrificing a mega evolution in both Bug and Poison teams.

Just a minor point but Baton Pass is banned in monotype so that isn't a relevant plus that scolipede has over beedrill. I feel you've missed something in your sum in the form of what threats scolipede actually checks that beedrill cannot such as Charizard Y, Victini and Megados to name a few.

Mons for Scolipede to check:
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tyranitar: 429-507 (106.4 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 499-588 (129.2 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 330-390 (79.7 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 231-273 (63.6 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 393-463 (108.5 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 463-549 (142.4 - 168.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Jolly because you need to be to outspeed scarf Hydreigon at +1)
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 143-169 (47 - 55.5%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Victini: 260-307 (74.2 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 224-265 (52.9 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Just to name a few.
I support keeping MegaDrill at D for poison; Mega Venusaur is instrumental to matchups that, sans venu, poison struggles greatly with (see ground and water), and Scolipede does MegaDrill's job better with Speed Boost. There is no reason to run a mon that is as detrimental to your overall team dynamic for an alright pivot.

 

[1 True Lycan]

Whimsicott doesn't lose to Gyarados or Garchomp at all unless Gyarados is actually running ice fang and has a dragon dance/sub up or garchomp is scarfed w/ poison jab (or max hp w/ poison jab, but that's never really an issue). It does lose to the z-move versions of Salamence and Volcarona, which I understand are a lot more common now, but that still puts them at risk of stun spore. everything else you'd replace whimsicott w/ still lose to these 'mons as well anyways b/c they naturally hard check grass. Whimsicott at least provides a possible way to stop them that no other 'mon does.

Hide

252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Psychic vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 151-179 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 101-122 (33.2 - 40.1%) -- 27.8% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Crobat: 164-195 (43.8 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

(I hope this isn't too messy of a post)

Idk what you're trying to prove with these calcs, but all you showed me was that Whimsicott is capable of doing less than half to pokemon which all have recovery, while simultaneously killing itself with life orb recoil. Also most Gyarados that I have seen are z-bounce which also beats Whimsicott.

This isn't particularly true, Grass can set Stealth Rock relatively easy and its means of hazard removal are something you can play around, Gengar has a hard time to switch in those intervals thanks to its somewhat poor bulk and risking take heavy damage. And also, I was referring to Psychic to OHKO Gengar in this specific case, due to its sightly higher damage than that of Shadow Ball's. Even if you don't consider the latter a good option, you should know Whimsicott isn't meant to OHKO stuff with its coverage move, but rather weaken the opposing team or maybe even clean later on the game.

Please elaborate on how Grass can set rocks 'relatively easily' vs Mega Sableye on ghost? I'll give you poison I guess, although taunt Crobat can usually prevent them. Regarding the actual move, Whimsicott is only coming in after Gengar has already gotten a kill or if you predict a focus blast. After this, it is easily walled by members on both ghost and poison and it will proceed to kill itself through life orb recoil. I cba to reply to all your comments but the gist is that Whimsicott does a mediocre job of checking threats (often relying on hard switching into set up sweepers), and these threats are often on types which are rarely seen in this metagame. I think Whimsicott does have a niche but it is honestly a very poor one considering its taking up a spot on the team which could be much better used. If you look at the actual relevant types, Whimsicott does literally 0 outside of a random encore/stun spore before dying. Against lower tier types, maybe it can spam Moonblast for a bit but honestly this pokemon isn't worth using.

tl;dr Whimsicott for B rank, maybe even C

 

[Bluxio]

Ok so a couple of changes id reccomend, specifically ground monos because I have played enough ground to know my way around a team. (Sorry for misspellings, im on mobile and I turned autocorrect off because its annoying.)

Dugdrio: A->B
This thing is only A rank because of its ability if we are being 100% honest. Its ability is fantastic, being able to trap threats to your team and killing them. However Ive found it extremely underwhelming on ground as both a sash set and as a band set.

The sash set is the most underwhelming to me. Ground has very poor hazard removal and the majority of the time the only way of this mon coming in without hazards is early game or with some serious predictions in order to prevent hazards going up. And the only real reason to use sash is for mons greninja and tapu koko, as well as scarfers, and since dugdrio is so frail and the hazard removal on ground is trash, there is no real reason to use sash over band.

The band set is much better but it is not A material in my opinion. I actually have personal experience with this set and I have to say, its not that great. The core problem with this set is that, there are very little things that dugdrio traps that a well put together ground comp cant handle already. So the majority of the time I ended up using this thing as fodder to get something in for free. Not trash just not worth A imo

Garchomp-mega(ground) A-->B or C

I want to like this thing I really do, but I seriously can not find a reason to use this over regular chomp. Mega chomp is outclassed by sd z move chomp and scarf chomp respectively. Sd z move chomp beats sd mega chomper because garchomp already has enough bulk to set up, and the speed drop is seriously going to hurt its ability to sweep, not to mention the z move. It sacrifices some base attack but at +2 with a z move I don't think it matters as much. Scarf chomp is just great on ground since it beats things like greninja, and its fantastic as cleaning up late game, something mega chomp isn't nearly as good at.all out attacker megachomp gets rendered useless by things like scarf dragons and greninja, plus the fact that ground already has a great all out attacker in landorus incarnate. And for the two people running stealth rock lead chomp on ground, normal chomp also outclasses mega chomp here. Sure, mega chomp gets some extra bulk, but rough skin is too good on a bulky lead chomp to pass up. Mega chomp isnt bad but its outclassed in too many ways by regular chomp to be sharing a class with it.


Gastrodon (ground): A-->B

Ground is too offensively oriented to use this over seismitoed in my opinion. Sure this thing has recovery, but ground doesn't really have switchins for a lot of things, and every time gastro comes in it lets things in for free. It basically drains momentum every time is comes in. Adding on to the fact that it needs a scald burn to beat things like drum azumarill. The difference between gastro and seis is that, seis has an offensive presence. Av seis can actually force things like non grass knot ninja out, while also being a hard check to azumarill even if it drums on the switch in. Having an offensive presence is important because of the fact that ground has no real switchins for anything because ground runs 5 offensive mons and hippo. So letting things in for free really isn't an option. Due to the fact that gastro is outclassed by seis in the majority of ways for Ground I think it should be B rank.

 

[The-Vale]

Ok so a couple of changes id reccomend, specifically ground monos because I have played enough ground to know my way around a team. (Sorry for misspellings, im on mobile and I turned autocorrect off because its annoying.)

Dugdrio: A->B
This thing is only A rank because of its ability if we are being 100% honest. Its ability is fantastic, being able to trap threats to your team and killing them. However Ive found it extremely underwhelming on ground as both a sash set and as a band set.

The sash set is the most underwhelming to me. Ground has very poor hazard removal and the majority of the time the only way of this mon coming in without hazards is early game or with some serious predictions in order to prevent hazards going up. And the only real reason to use sash is for mons greninja and tapu koko, as well as scarfers, and since dugdrio is so frail and the hazard removal on ground is trash, there is no real reason to use sash over band.

The band set is much better but it is not A material in my opinion. I actually have personal experience with this set and I have to say, its not that great. The core problem with this set is that, there are very little things that dugdrio traps that a well put together ground comp cant handle already. So the majority of the time I ended up using this thing as fodder to get something in for free. Not trash just not worth A imo

I disagree with your views on dugtrio especially the part regarding there to be no reason to use sash over band. The threats to ground dugtrio is capable of dealing with using its sash set is where its viability comes in. It is capable of removing Chansey, Alolan Raichu, Tapu Koko, Magearna and keldeo just to name a few. Ground is quite capable of removing hazards through excadrill especially due to the offensive power it brings to the table. Dugtrio is probably the best revenge killer ground has against threats to the team especially considering grounds ability as a HO type the ability to remove things that otherwise hinder Lando I, Mega Chomp and Excadrill from doing their jobs and doing so cannot be stated enough. Also just because you haven't been able to get the banded dugtrio to work doesnt mean its undeserving of its ranking and using your own 'experience' is not enough evidence to justify a demotion from A rank.

 

[Lilymoding]

Ok so a couple of changes id reccomend, specifically ground monos because I have played enough ground to know my way around a team. (Sorry for misspellings, im on mobile and I turned autocorrect off because its annoying.)

Dugdrio: A->B
This thing is only A rank because of its ability if we are being 100% honest. Its ability is fantastic, being able to trap threats to your team and killing them. However Ive found it extremely underwhelming on ground as both a sash set and as a band set.

The sash set is the most underwhelming to me. Ground has very poor hazard removal and the majority of the time the only way of this mon coming in without hazards is early game or with some serious predictions in order to prevent hazards going up. And the only real reason to use sash is for mons greninja and tapu koko, as well as scarfers, and since dugdrio is so frail and the hazard removal on ground is trash, there is no real reason to use sash over band.

The band set is much better but it is not A material in my opinion. I actually have personal experience with this set and I have to say, its not that great. The core problem with this set is that, there are very little things that dugdrio traps that a well put together ground comp cant handle already. So the majority of the time I ended up using this thing as fodder to get something in for free. Not trash just not worth A imo

Garchomp-mega(ground) A-->B or C

I want to like this thing I really do, but I seriously can not find a reason to use this over regular chomp. Mega chomp is outclassed by sd z move chomp and scarf chomp respectively. Sd z move chomp beats sd mega chomper because garchomp already has enough bulk to set up, and the speed drop is seriously going to hurt its ability to sweep, not to mention the z move. It sacrifices some base attack but at +2 with a z move I don't think it matters as much. Scarf chomp is just great on ground since it beats things like greninja, and its fantastic as cleaning up late game, something mega chomp isn't nearly as good at.all out attacker megachomp gets rendered useless by things like scarf dragons and greninja, plus the fact that ground already has a great all out attacker in landorus incarnate. And for the two people running stealth rock lead chomp on ground, normal chomp also outclasses mega chomp here. Sure, mega chomp gets some extra bulk, but rough skin is too good on a bulky lead chomp to pass up. Mega chomp isnt bad but its outclassed in too many ways by regular chomp to be sharing a class with it.


Gastrodon (ground): A-->B

Ground is too offensively oriented to use this over seismitoed in my opinion. Sure this thing has recovery, but ground doesn't really have switchins for a lot of things, and every time gastro comes in it lets things in for free. It basically drains momentum every time is comes in. Adding on to the fact that it needs a scald burn to beat things like drum azumarill. The difference between gastro and seis is that, seis has an offensive presence. Av seis can actually force things like non grass knot ninja out, while also being a hard check to azumarill even if it drums on the switch in. Having an offensive presence is important because of the fact that ground has no real switchins for anything because ground runs 5 offensive mons and hippo. So letting things in for free really isn't an option. Due to the fact that gastro is outclassed by seis in the majority of ways for Ground I think it should be B rank.

For your dugtrio section, could you post some relevent replays in which Dugtrio was underwhelming, or failed to take out a threat it otherwise was expected to? Could you provide examples as to how a "well put together ground comp" can easily address the threats that Dugtrio is meant to address? I can't go off of "he says, she says".

As for Gastrodon, I would argue that it fits in a different role than Seismitoad. While they both provide valuable Water immunity, Gastrodon provides support ability with reliable recovery; Seismitoad takes offensive advantage. They are two different playstyles, and I believe both excel in not only providing the valuable service of a Water immunity, but they both fill their role spectacularly well. With the rise of Fairy and the relative fall of Water, Gastrodon is indispensable. I would say keep it at A, mostly because Seismitoad does not take away from it in the sense that they are intrinsically different.

 

[mushamu]

I disagree with your views on dugtrio especially the part regarding there to be no reason to use sash over band. The threats to ground dugtrio is capable of dealing with using its sash set is where its viability comes in. It is capable of removing Chansey, Alolan Raichu, Tapu Koko, Magearna and keldeo just to name a few. Ground is quite capable of removing hazards through excadrill especially due to the offensive power it brings to the table. Dugtrio is probably the best revenge killer ground has against threats to the team especially considering grounds ability as a HO type the ability to remove things that otherwise hinder Lando I, Mega Chomp and Excadrill from doing their jobs and doing so cannot be stated enough. Also just because you haven't been able to get the banded dugtrio to work doesnt mean its undeserving of its ranking and using your own 'experience' is not enough evidence to justify a demotion from A rank.

I mean, chansey isn't much of a wall to ground, since banded exca takes care of that. The threats that dugtrio "take care" of are easily managed by scarf chomp, band excadrill, and lando, therefore making Dugtrio a B ranked mon.

 

[iLlama]

I mean, chansey isn't much of a wall to ground, since banded exca takes care of that. The threats that dugtrio "take care" of are easily managed by scarf chomp, band excadrill, and lando, therefore making Dugtrio a B ranked mon.

Removing those Pokemon, i.e. Chansey, Alolan Raichu, etc. isn't the best wording. It traps these Pokemon, meaning it's going to get assured KOes on them no matter what. Ground then doesn't need to worry about these threats later, which is extremely helpful. Other teammates on Ground may be able to manage these Pokemon, but none of them can take these Pokemon out as effectively as Dugtrio.

 

[Havens]

Goodra C => A

Goodra is way too versatile and bulky a mon to be so far down in this ranking imo. Sporting a base 150 SpDef stat coupled with Assault Vest makes it the bulkiest of all the dragons on the special side, and a decent base 90 HP can ensure that it will survive for quite a while. 252 HP and Def Bold Natured can assure to tank physical hits, most notably Play Rough from Azumarill (w/o band or Atk Boost), Banded Excadrill, Crunch from Mega Sharpedo/Gyarados, and other hard hitting mons of the like. For the mons it can't kill, Gooey usually sets up for other mons such as scarf Kyurem-Black or Scarf Latios to revenge kill, or in some cases to sweep. Hydration can be used as a wall to stall out others with toxic, and Rain Dance could offer support to the likes of Kingdra (while it isn't that common.) Offensively, its coverage is among the best for its type, sporting incredible special moves (Ice Beam, Focus Blast, Fire Blast, Sludge Bomb, etc.) and physical ones as well, surprisingly (Earthquake, Power Whip, Superpower, etc.) Overall, this mon is a must for Dragon teams due to its incredible bulk and potential in an overwhelmingly tipped metagame favoring Steel and Fairy types.

 

[The-Vale]

I mean, chansey isn't much of a wall to ground, since banded exca takes care of that. The threats that dugtrio "take care" of are easily managed by scarf chomp, band excadrill, and lando, therefore making Dugtrio a B ranked mon.

My wording was a bit off, it was late at night and I was on mobile. As iLlama says Dugtrio traps the likes of chansey which was more what I was aiming at, banded excadrill is capable of handling it sometimes but P2 and Bulkraptor are easy switchins onto a banded excadrill in particular staraptor given that Iron head isnt a guarenteed 2HKO on chansey (252+ Atk Choice Band Excadrill Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 294-346 (45.7 - 53.8%) -- 46.1% chance to 2HKO) even then the damage output would allow chansey to quite easily outrecover the damage provided it doesnt get flinched. So to counter your point, which hinges on chansey "not being much of a wall for ground", chansey is a mon that ground struggles to break through because of its ability to switch and is the key part of the core that hinders grounds abilities as it is Lando I's main switch in, dugtrio traps and removes this aiding in lando's ability to wreck havok onto the opposing team. Apologies if this is a jumbled mess

 

[Deep Breathing]

Goodra C => A

Goodra is way too versatile and bulky a mon to be so far down in this ranking imo. Sporting a base 150 SpDef stat coupled with Assault Vest makes it the bulkiest of all the dragons on the special side, and a decent base 90 HP can ensure that it will survive for quite a while. 252 HP and Def Bold Natured can assure to tank physical hits, most notably Play Rough from Azumarill (w/o band or Atk Boost), Banded Excadrill, Crunch from Mega Sharpedo/Gyarados, and other hard hitting mons of the like. For the mons it can't kill, Gooey usually sets up for other mons such as scarf Kyurem-Black or Scarf Latios to revenge kill, or in some cases to sweep. Hydration can be used as a wall to stall out others with toxic, and Rain Dance could offer support to the likes of Kingdra (while it isn't that common.) Offensively, its coverage is among the best for its type, sporting incredible special moves (Ice Beam, Focus Blast, Fire Blast, Sludge Bomb, etc.) and physical ones as well, surprisingly (Earthquake, Power Whip, Superpower, etc.) Overall, this mon is a must for Dragon teams due to its incredible bulk and potential in an overwhelmingly tipped metagame favoring Steel and Fairy types.

Cloud 9 I do agree with you that Goodra should be bumped up, but I believe taking it all the way to A rank is too much. I wouldn't compare it to Hydreigon & Latias (the current two A rank Dragon pokemon) in terms of power & class. However, I would compare it to other B rank Dragon pokemon in terms of 'special' bulkiness/power such as Dragalge & move coverage such as Salamence.

And to these points in terms of effectiveness of this pokemon, I agree that it is a staple for dragon teams - making it deserving of the B rank. The other C rank Dragon pokemon that it is currently paired with such as flygon, guzzlord & tyrantrum seem more like niche pokemon that would look far less comon on a dragon team than does Goodra.

 

[Eien]

I was also considering a Mega Garchomp drop because it just doesn't do anything better than Garchomp that Ground needs right now. Just as Landorus-T's opportunity cost of Landorus puts it at a lower rank, I would argue Mega Garchomp should be B rank on Ground because it's worse than Garchomp.

The main point of my post is to nom Seismitoad for S rank on Ground. Every Ground team needs a Water immunity, and your options are Gastrodon and Seismitoad. Seismitoad's offensive utility in outspeeding and using Sludge Wave to OHKO Z-Belly Drum Azumarill is essential. Having a guaranteed check to Azumarill cannot be understated. Gastrodon, in fact, cannot even hope to check Azumarill.

Furthermore, I've been using Jolly Seismitoad to outspeed Adamant Choice Band Tapu Bulu, which is very helpful in preventing that monster from running over Ground teams. Fairy teams struggle a lot vs Seismitoad. Earth Power and Sludge Wave KO every Pokemon except for Clefable, and it outspeeds and/or survives one hit from every Pokemon as well barring Choice Scarf or Jolly Tapu Bulu. Without Twinkle Tackle, Magearna cannot actually OHKO Seismitoad. On the other hand, Gastrodon is often 2HKOed on the switch by Fleur Cannon from even Assault Vest sets. When Fairy is the best type right now, having an option that pressures it so much is very nice.

Furthermore, Seismitoad has access to Knock Off, being one of the few viable Pokemon that actually uses it (Landorus-T is hardly going to use Knock Off now). This helps a lot against Normal teams, as the Eviolite core can be quite difficult to break otherwise. Seismitoad is also even able to use utility in Stealth Rock and Toxic on offense. This actually helps a lot in pressuring opposing Water-types that hate being hit by Toxic.

Ground teams in general really hate losing momentum with Gastrodon, and the much more offensive meta this generation really pressures Gastrodon teams. I think given just how much better of a Water immunity Seismitoad is compared to Gastrodon, it should be a higher rank. Seismitoad is basically necessary on almost all Ground teams and is superior to the other Water-immune option. Would you build a team without a Water immunity? Most good players won't. And when your choice is between Seismitoad and Gastrodon, you're going to choose Seismitoad almost every time. For these reasons, I think it deserves to be S rank.

(Gastrodon should stay A by the way, not drop to B. It's still a good option and is needed if you do not use Seismitoad)

calcs

252 SpA Seismitoad Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 188-222 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 469-552 (110 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Seismitoad Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 324-384 (114.8 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The below two calcs are meant to show that not even Assault Vest Magearna can switch in safely.
252 SpA Seismitoad Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 132-156 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Seismitoad: 198-234 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Seismitoad Earth Power vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 198-234 (55.9 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Seismitoad: 297-349 (84.6 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Without Eviolite:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Porygon2: 187-220 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 390-460 (55.3 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Tyke]

Well that was eventful. Hopefully this next nomination won't be so contentious.

Nihilego A --> S (Rock)​

Nihilego is the best special attacker on Rock, a type desperately lacking in Special offense after the loss of Mega-Diancie. And Nihilego provides, offering solid typing, coverage, and wallbreaking power to Rock teams.

The Specs / Life Orb set is undoubtedly Nihilego's strongest set on rock, able to break down bulky defensive cores with strong STAB attacks and coverage. Thunderbolt and Grass Knot and HP Ice allow Nihilego to put in serious work against Water and Ground teams, while raw STAB Sludge Wave and Power Gem are capable of 2HKOing threats like Mega-Venusaur or Toxapex.

Calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Nihilego Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 183-216 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Nihilego Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Nihilego Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 195-231 (42.9 - 50.8%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Nihilego Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Swampert: 552-652 (137.6 - 162.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Nihilego Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 206-244 (51.7 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Nihilego Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Hippowdon: 408-480 (97.1 - 114.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Nihilego Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 352-416 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Nihilego Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 468-552 (146.2 - 172.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Nihilego Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp-Mega: 404-476 (112.8 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And this is before Beast Boost activates, after which Nihilego becomes very difficult to wall. Nihilego's speed of 103 is decent, able to outrun threats like Lando-I and Garchomp and outspeed most of the meta under Shuckle's sticky webs.

Nihilego's special bulk is also noteworthy, allowing it to switch in and sponge neutral special hits like Giga Drain or weak scalds with little issue, especially in sand. Poison typing also lets Nihilego pick up Toxic Spikes which can otherwise can easily break Rock teams and are much more common with Toxapex around.

That's really all there is to Nihilego on rock, and that's all it needs: it's not a tremendously powerful pokemon, but as the strongest special attacker on a type with few other options it's a virtual auto-include on any Rock team.

With that in mind, I nominate Nihilego to S-rank on Rock

 

[juleocesar]

I would like to bring some several ranking suggestions:
Dhelmise B -> C (Grass)

This is a very similiar post I brought up in the beginnning of this generation, asking for a drop on this Pokémon, so I will reiterate some points made back then to clarify why it needs another drop. I believe we have had enough time for testing and we can finally agree that Dhelmise has been underwhelming on nearly every Grass team and that is often a waste of team slot which could be better used.

Aside from Rapid Spin utility and its Steelworker ability (which could increase its damage against Fairy threats), there isn't really much Dhelmise can do with its awful 40 base speed and lack of reliable recovery. Besides, none of these are actually necessary on Grass teams, given that the team has more reliable options (Ferrothorn + Mega-Venusaur core can handle most Fairy threats pretty well, and that Grass can't make the most of the hazard removal it provides; most teams usually have an upper hand vs Grass teams when it comes into opportunities, and hazard settings are no exception, meaning that the opposite teams can often set those hazards back or maybe even spinblock or kill Dhelmise before it does anything).

Another problem Dhelmise has is its poor Ghost/Grass typing: It doesn't give any meaningful neutralities aside from Poison and Bug moves, both of which can be handled by its other teammates. This combined to its mediocre overall bulk and awful speed means it has a hard time surviving common coverage Fire and Ice moves from the metagame, and its lack of reliable recovery means it will be effectively worn down throughout the match if it wants to do its job to remove hazards.

And finally, it has a really underwhelming support movepool. Besides trapping with Anchor Shot and hazard removal there isn't anything Dhelmise offers utility-wise. It gets access to Switcheroo in a Choice Band set and can catch enemy teams offguard, but it is often a gimmick and unreliable set when accounting what it is meant to do in Grass teams.

That being said, Dhelmise lacks a lot of utility when related to other B rank mons, it doesn't really improve any relevant matchups and I really believe it should go C rank.

Leavanny C -> D or unranked (Grass)

In early days of SuMo Monotype, Leavanny had a decent niche as a Sticky Web setter, which could provide speed control to its teammates, notably because of Kartana and access to Terrain Extender, both of which promoted the hyper offensive archetype really well on the Grass. However, since the derparture of those, HO Grass teams became nearly non-existant and it is an inferior option to balance in nearly all cases, especially if take a closer look on matchups and compare how these archetypes do against them (basically HO only accentuates matchups that Grass already does well, and has a much harder time than balance on handling everything else).

Leavanny pretty much only works as a suicide lead and teams can easily remove their hazards as Grass lost the offensive pressure they needed to prevent opponents from doing it. There isn't really much that can be said about this Pokemon as it ONLY fits on hyper offense, which is, as I already mentioned, a bad archetype in overall. Having this ranked any higher than D implies that HO is viable, which is a misconception and could potentially mislead newer players on teambuilding.

All it does is set Sticky Web and MAYBE act as a gimmick anti-lead with Magic Coat. It is a really small niche that nearly all teams aren't taking for the high opportunity cost involved in running this Pokemon.

 

[JakeBevs]

OL3_Jake, currently sitting at 1543 on the ladder with elec~
Electivire C -> B

75/123/67/95/85/95

Alright, to begin, this is a severely underused 'mon. It's hard-hitting attack stat in couple with it's base 95 speed make it a great scarf choice for any electric team. Another set is the Timid expert belt set, but in my opinion, you're better off running scarf.

Electric teams tend to have a shitton decent amount of trouble with dragon teams, for example. Salamence, Kyurem-B, and Dragalge all represent threats to electric, however, E-vire does a great job of patching the coverage holes electric has for these 'mons, ESPECIALLY after rocks have been set up. Here are a couple sample calculations.

-252 Atk Electivire Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 230-272 (69 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
-252 Atk Electivire Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 328-388 (101.5 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (After chip or rocks damage. Also could anticipate a d-dance)
-252 Atk Electivire Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 380-448 (114.8 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO


-252 Atk Electivire Cross Chop vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-Black: 210-248 (53.7 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 4 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Electivire: 226-268 (77.6 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


-252 Atk Electivire Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 344-408 (107.8 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-252 Atk Electivire Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela in Electric Terrain: 414-488 (104 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-252 Atk Electivire Cross Chop vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tyranitar: 384-456 (95.2 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

As you can see, these few calcs are just scarf set calculations because I am biased to that set. To have E-vire at C just does not do it any justice at all for the niche it can fill. I voice my utter and complete support for its rank to be raised. The calcs above are not taking into account style of play, or other sets. They are just raw calculations of E-vire versus common sets of other mons.

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED TEAMMATES: Golem-A, Tapu Koko, and/or Alola-Chu.

-Golem serve's it's purpose by setting rocks and keeping rocks down.

-Tapu, whether it is band, LO, or scarf, is fast enough and hard hitting enough to chip out mons to allow evire to come in for the kill

-Alola-chu outspeeds and kills the threats that E-Vire cant, such as Victini and scarf Lando-T, as it can bulk out one ice-punch and kill E-vire.

 

[StarBlim]

OL3_Jake, currently sitting at 1543 on the ladder with elec~
Electivire C -> B

75/123/67/95/85/95

Alright, to begin, this is a severely underused 'mon. It's hard-hitting attack stat in couple with it's base 95 speed make it a great scarf choice for any electric team. Another set is the Timid expert belt set, but in my opinion, you're better off running scarf.

Electric teams tend to have a shitton decent amount of trouble with dragon teams, for example. Salamence, Kyurem-B, and Dragalge all represent threats to electric, however, E-vire does a great job of patching the coverage holes electric has for these 'mons, ESPECIALLY after rocks have been set up. Here are a couple sample calculations.

-252 Atk Electivire Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 230-272 (69 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
-252 Atk Electivire Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 328-388 (101.5 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (After chip or rocks damage. Also could anticipate a d-dance)
-252 Atk Electivire Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 380-448 (114.8 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO


-252 Atk Electivire Cross Chop vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-Black: 210-248 (53.7 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 4 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Electivire: 226-268 (77.6 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


-252 Atk Electivire Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 344-408 (107.8 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-252 Atk Electivire Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela in Electric Terrain: 414-488 (104 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-252 Atk Electivire Cross Chop vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tyranitar: 384-456 (95.2 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

As you can see, these few calcs are just scarf set calculations because I am biased to that set. To have E-vire at C just does not do it any justice at all for the niche it can fill. I voice my utter and complete support for its rank to be raised. The calcs above are not taking into account style of play, or other sets. They are just raw calculations of E-vire versus common sets of other mons.

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED TEAMMATES: Golem-A, Tapu Koko, and/or Alola-Chu.

-Golem serve's it's purpose by setting rocks and keeping rocks down.

-Tapu, whether it is band, LO, or scarf, is fast enough and hard hitting enough to chip out mons to allow evire to come in for the kill

-Alola-chu outspeeds and kills the threats that E-Vire cant, such as Victini and scarf Lando-T, as it can bulk out one ice-punch and kill E-vire.

The Main problem with Electivire really is with scarf its too weak to ko any of the mons you want it you check and all of the mons u want it to check like kyu b and dragalge will always live a hit and ko in return with their optimal sets

252 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Electivire: 433-511 (148.7 - 175.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Electivire: 292-344 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Besides that you don't need evire to check Celesteela or Landorus Raichu in terrain already does this

252+ SpA Life Orb Raichu Surf vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 294-346 (92.1 - 108.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Raichu Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela in Electric Terrain: 351-413 (88.1 - 103.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Memeism]

Just to add on to StarBlim about the Electivire post, (specifically regarding the part about how it beats salamence and dragonite with rocks up) Electric already has much more viable options to handle dragonite and salamence with rocks up.

252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 276-328 (85.4 - 101.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite in Electric Terrain: 253-300 (78.3 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence in Electric Terrain: 304-359 (91.8 - 108.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 330-390 (99.6 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[mushamu]

soooo I was looking at the dark and ghost rankings and I saw Sableye.

Sableye (Ghost) (Dark)
B --> C
Ghost
Sableye was a huge part of the team in gen 6, stalling out the entire dark metagame, serving as the best dark check. Now, in gen 7, things are different. The prankster nerf screwed it over, because Sableye cannot be used as a dark check anymore. Further, Sablenite was unbanned, allowing hazard control and a safe knock off switch in the metagame. Also, the new surge of fairies took a shit on the viability on Sableye as a whole. Sableye needs its Mega Stone to function, and if you use its base form over the Mega Evolution, you are asking to get fucked over by dark and opposing Mega Sableye.

Dark
Sableye was nice on dark in gen 6, It had a nice fighting immunity, which prove useful in the match up. In this gen, where stall is dominant and fairies are common, Sableye finds itself struggling, even at the B rank. It is dead weight in the Fire, Fairy, Water, and Dark matchups. It has trouble with any team that contains Toxapex, Magearna, the Tapus, Charizard Y, and any physical attacker that cannot be burnt.

Overall, Sableye finds itself at a bad position in gen 7, and thats why I think it should get booted down to the C ranking on both types.

 

[Haaku]

I was also considering a Mega Garchomp drop because it just doesn't do anything better than Garchomp that Ground needs right now. Just as Landorus-T's opportunity cost of Landorus puts it at a lower rank, I would argue Mega Garchomp should be B rank on Ground because it's worse than Garchomp.

The main point of my post is to nom Seismitoad for S rank on Ground. Every Ground team needs a Water immunity, and your options are Gastrodon and Seismitoad. Seismitoad's offensive utility in outspeeding and using Sludge Wave to OHKO Z-Belly Drum Azumarill is essential. Having a guaranteed check to Azumarill cannot be understated. Gastrodon, in fact, cannot even hope to check Azumarill.

Furthermore, I've been using Jolly Seismitoad to outspeed Adamant Choice Band Tapu Bulu, which is very helpful in preventing that monster from running over Ground teams. Fairy teams struggle a lot vs Seismitoad. Earth Power and Sludge Wave KO every Pokemon except for Clefable, and it outspeeds and/or survives one hit from every Pokemon as well barring Choice Scarf or Jolly Tapu Bulu. Without Twinkle Tackle, Magearna cannot actually OHKO Seismitoad. On the other hand, Gastrodon is often 2HKOed on the switch by Fleur Cannon from even Assault Vest sets. When Fairy is the best type right now, having an option that pressures it so much is very nice.

Furthermore, Seismitoad has access to Knock Off, being one of the few viable Pokemon that actually uses it (Landorus-T is hardly going to use Knock Off now). This helps a lot against Normal teams, as the Eviolite core can be quite difficult to break otherwise. Seismitoad is also even able to use utility in Stealth Rock and Toxic on offense. This actually helps a lot in pressuring opposing Water-types that hate being hit by Toxic.

Ground teams in general really hate losing momentum with Gastrodon, and the much more offensive meta this generation really pressures Gastrodon teams. I think given just how much better of a Water immunity Seismitoad is compared to Gastrodon, it should be a higher rank. Seismitoad is basically necessary on almost all Ground teams and is superior to the other Water-immune option. Would you build a team without a Water immunity? Most good players won't. And when your choice is between Seismitoad and Gastrodon, you're going to choose Seismitoad almost every time. For these reasons, I think it deserves to be S rank.

(Gastrodon should stay A by the way, not drop to B. It's still a good option and is needed if you do not use Seismitoad)

calcs

252 SpA Seismitoad Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 188-222 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 469-552 (110 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Seismitoad Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 324-384 (114.8 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The below two calcs are meant to show that not even Assault Vest Magearna can switch in safely.
252 SpA Seismitoad Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 132-156 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Seismitoad: 198-234 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Seismitoad Earth Power vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 198-234 (55.9 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Seismitoad: 297-349 (84.6 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Without Eviolite:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Porygon2: 187-220 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 390-460 (55.3 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As someone who's played Ground more than any other type this gen, I have a few comments here.

On Mega Garchomp A -> B
I disagree with this. When paired with Excadrill, Garchomp-Mega and it form a very deadly wallbreaking core. It has the bulk to live an outrageous (pun intended) amount of things that regular Garchomp has more trouble with. While 92 may seem like a bad speed tier, it sits at a "just right" position, outspeeding just about every important wall, and passing Landorus-Therian. On Ground, it's a great wincon for Water and especially Grass. It's Ice and Fairy weaknesses are patched up by Excadrill and a lot of the time by Gastrodon/Seismitoed. Another great trait of it is the Sand Force ability, becoming even more deadly in the sand. Not only that, but access to Swords Dance and a plethora of support moves makes it a positive factor in Fighting, Water, Grass, Dark, Ghost, Psychic, and many more matchups. Here are some calcs:

+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega in Sand: 355-418 (98.8 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro-Mega in Sand: 270-318 (68.7 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 214-253 (62.3 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Garchomp-Mega Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 322-379 (108.4 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Garchomp-Mega Outrage vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 306-361 (77.8 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252+ Atk Garchomp-Mega Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 211-250 (63.7 - 75.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Garchomp-Mega Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 286-337 (89.6 - 105.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


I run a more bulky Mega Garchomp set, with 176 HP and 80 Speed. It still outspeeds key threats & walls, like uninvested base 100s, and, before Mega Evolving, neutral nature base 80s like Dragonite. Here are some calcs on the defensive side, with that in mind. Keep in mind that Mega Garchomp has an insane 108/115/95 bulk. That's more raw physical bulk than Skarmory, Hippowdon, Celesteela, and Mega Venusaur.

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Garchomp-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 262-310 (65.3 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Garchomp-Mega: 226-267 (56.3 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Bluxio]

As someone who's played Ground more than any other type this gen, I have a few comments here.

On Mega Garchomp A -> B
I disagree with this. When paired with Excadrill, Garchomp-Mega and it form a very deadly wallbreaking core. It has the bulk to live an outrageous (pun intended) amount of things that regular Garchomp has more trouble with. While 92 may seem like a bad speed tier, it sits at a "just right" position, outspeeding just about every important wall, and passing Landorus-Therian. On Ground, it's a great wincon for Water and especially Grass. It's Ice and Fairy weaknesses are patched up by Excadrill and a lot of the time by Gastrodon/Seismitoed. Another great trait of it is the Sand Force ability, becoming even more deadly in the sand. Not only that, but access to Swords Dance and a plethora of support moves makes it a positive factor in Fighting, Water, Grass, Dark, Ghost, Psychic, and many more matchups. Here are some calcs:

+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega in Sand: 355-418 (98.8 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro-Mega in Sand: 270-318 (68.7 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

252+ Atk Sand Force Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 214-253 (62.3 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Garchomp-Mega Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 322-379 (108.4 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Garchomp-Mega Outrage vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 306-361 (77.8 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252+ Atk Garchomp-Mega Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 211-250 (63.7 - 75.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Garchomp-Mega Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 286-337 (89.6 - 105.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


I run a more bulky Mega Garchomp set, with 176 HP and 80 Speed. It still outspeeds key threats & walls, like uninvested base 100s, and, before Mega Evolving, neutral nature base 80s like Dragonite. Here are some calcs on the defensive side, with that in mind. Keep in mind that Mega Garchomp has an insane 108/115/95 bulk. That's more raw physical bulk than Skarmory, Hippowdon, Celesteela, and Mega Venusaur.

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Garchomp-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 262-310 (65.3 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Garchomp-Mega: 226-267 (56.3 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I have played ground more than any other type this gen as well, and I agree with the lowering and I'll tell you why:

While I do agree that sand force chomp when paired with excadrill form a deadly combo, in essence they do the same thing, with nearly the same coverage. And while it does also has dragon and fire coverage, it cant really break anything that banded drill + regular chomp combo cant break.

While mega chomp has extra bulk, it loses out a TON by not being able to run an item as well. Scarf chomp doesnt need the bulk nearly as much because it is able to kill threats before it gets damaged. Something that mega chomp cant pull off after the speed drop. Also I dont agree that mega chomp sits at the "just right" position, because after he mega evolves he loses enough speed to lose critical speed ties and outspeeds to a plethora of threats like, mega zard x, lando reg, thundy I, mew(which is a threat this gen), manaphy, salamence, other chompers, mimikyu, and kyurem black. Keep in mind that these are all threats that ohko or 2hko chomper that he could outspeed and damage without the drop.

Also the good things about it being a wincon in water and grass and also about its weakness to fairy and ice are patched up by driller, while these are all true, they are also true for regular chomp so it doesn't help the argument thats its better than regular chomp in any way.
(Also lando reg is a much better wincon vs grass js)

The problem with the sand force + sd argument (and the calcs involved) is that while yes, mega chomp gets sand force, regular chomp gets something undoubtedly better in the ability to use Z moves.

+2 252+ Atk Garchomp Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 402-474 (111.9 - 132%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Garchomp Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 306-360 (77.8 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Garchomp Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 243-286 (70.8 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 262-310 (88.2 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (any rock move kills)

+2 252+ Atk Garchomp Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 375-442 (95.4 - 112.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO without rocks

-1 252+ Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 174-205 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (again rock move does more)

252+ Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 235-277 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (really lando gets walled by hippo but whatevs)

All these calcs show that z eq does, more than mega chomp in sand 100% of the time, and isnt limited to a certain number of turns. Also the extra speed helps it beat the threats I previously listed. So there really is not much of a reason to use mega sd over regular sd.

Ofc bulky mega chomp gets more success than regular bulky chomp, but ground doesn't really need another bulky mon. Ground often performs best with with as many fast hard hitters as possible. Since it struggles to beat water and things like that, it needs needs to outspeed and hit those types hard. And regular chomp fits the role perfect.

I dont think mega chomp is bad by any definition of the word but there isn't a role that mega chomp can fill that regular chomp cant fill just as good or better, in my honest opinion. This is why he belongs in B, he fits in well with nidoking, since nidoking is perfectly fine to use on ground, but its outclassed by a couple things that generic ground runs.

 

[The-Vale]

I feel like both of these posts on megachomp are misguided, while I agree that megachomp should probably drop down to B rank in this meta, the sets youve posted are far from it's most optimal sets.
The calcs youve shown as well I feel are incomparable for you to say 'z eq outdamages 100% of the time' due to the fact you're acting under the assumption chomp has got the SD up which against more HO types such as fairy is unlikely. And further reducing the validity of your statement is the fact you havent even calced against the same mons.

The Niche megachomp adds to ground over standard chomp is as a mixed wall breaker using Draco Meteor as its main dragon stab, not outrage as you have all used. This mixed set helps ground place pressure on many common cores in the game such as Zaptom, Dark core, steel core and Skarmdos + mantine to name a few (I will include calcs later in the day on mobile atm). This is the niche megachomp has over regular chomp.

 

[Bluxio]

The reason I used the sets I did was because it was because it was the same sets he talked about in his other post. And I wanted to show that regular chomp filled the roles that megachomp did (or at least for the sets he posted.)

Also, I was using +2 on some and not on others because I wanted to compare megachomps damage to regular chomp and I needed to put +2 on the calcs hakku put +2 on to prove my point. Also you said I didnt calc the same mons but I made it a point to calc with the exact same sets and ev spreads he did. Maybe a mistake on your part?

I do have to give you credit tho, I did think forget about the draco meteor set that mega chomp runs. However my stance on the matter doesn't change

Thanks for responding tho I appreciate it.

 

[The-Vale]

My apologies, I misread the calcs I thought some had mentioned mega. It would have been best to put both in the same post as it shows clear comparison.

 

[Havens]

Cloud 9 I do agree with you that Goodra should be bumped up, but I believe taking it all the way to A rank is too much. I wouldn't compare it to Hydreigon & Latias (the current two A rank Dragon pokemon) in terms of power & class. However, I would compare it to other B rank Dragon pokemon in terms of 'special' bulkiness/power such as Dragalge & move coverage such as Salamence.

And to these points in terms of effectiveness of this pokemon, I agree that it is a staple for dragon teams - making it deserving of the B rank. The other C rank Dragon pokemon that it is currently paired with such as flygon, guzzlord & tyrantrum seem more like niche pokemon that would look far less comon on a dragon team than does Goodra.

While I do understand that the other B rank dragon mons may offer an advantage over other types, The only one that really stands out to be a B rank one would be Dragalge. I mean, no offense to Mega Chomp and Kommo-o, but I doubt anyone will use Mega Chomp at higher level play. Rough Skin/Rocky Helmet makes it a great phsyically defensive wall in its own right (one of the best in the game), so why not use it? When Mega Altaria releases we can use that for a Mega slot instead. :P Kommo-o, while incredibly underrated, feels forced to run DD or Autotomize 9/10 times to its underwhelming speed for a dragon, and even then the x4 weakness to Fairy doesn't even ensure that it gets that much up, especially with a metagame monster in Tapu Koko. As for Dragalge, while amazing for removing TSpikes and great for applying pressure to Fairies, is way too slow, Physically vulnerable (mainly due to a subpar HP stat), and easily walled by the Metagame's best type at the moment in Steel. There are way too many opportunites to set up with particular steel types if placed in the right positions; Leech Seed/Sub Celesteela, Z-Happy Hour Jirachi, Heatran and rocks, or just plainly sending out Excadrill to pick up a kill.

Personally Goodra would feel right at home at A rank. I understand your B rank evaluation. Even if it may not get there right now, that's only because of a seemingly centralized metagame of Copy/Paste Steel and Fairy Monos, where it lives and breathes the word 'Generic,' and you have to kill fast to prevent Magearna from sweeping your dragon team.

 

[Rolyat44]

Dhelmise (Ghost) B=>S (Or at least A)
In the past week or so there are three pokemon that I have seen on every ghost team that I have gone up against. They are Gengar, Mimikyu, and Dhelmise. Dhelmise is the only one of these that is not S tier. Dhelmise has above average attack and defense for fully evolved ghost types as well as average hp, special attack, and special defence. Although its speed is horrible it can be put into a trick room team. Along with this it also has an amazing ability in steelworker which essentially gives this pokemon an extra STAB without any drawbacks. Dhelmise is just an outstanding pokemon overall and deserves way better than to just be in B tier.

 

[Novaeu]

Empoleon (Steel) Unranked ===> C/D
In my opinion a good counter to fire types with its water typing, and with good spD. It can take hits and if prepared right can dish them out, although with a limited movepool. It also can get killed by grass and electric types fairly easily if you don't invest a lot of EVs into spD. Besides that, it still has its positives, as it has ice beam, scald, and other moves that are mostly not learned by other steel types. It also adds a bit of variety to the steel monotype, and helps you against disadvantages if you use it right.
(I personally use him and he can help at times.) (Although this is just me)