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CAP Updates: Naviathan Discussion (Complete)
- Thread starter boxofkangaroos
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We're not looking to buff the Calm Mind set. The goal of this update is to increase the viability of the Dragon Dance set so that both sets have similar viability.
I don't think navi needs anything more than Heavy Slam. Heavy Slam makes it one of the few physical attackers that can actually significantly hurt tomohawk without a super effective hit. Heavy Slam also let's it beat mollux without the need for a new coverage move and Icicle Crash at +1 does a significant amount to Plasmanta so I don't see the reason to give it EQ, even though I originally supported this move. As for liquidation, I don't see it being used on an optimal Naviathan set, although it does let you beat Fire-Type's like Heatran, it means that you only have room for 1 coverage option and decreases your overall matchup at +1.
Yeah, Heavy Slam is one of the only older moves Naviathan needs because it can already hurt Ohmagod Plasmanta with an Icicle Crash after a single boost. Both of these moves dent Tomohawk a bunch, but I don't see why Naviathan needs Earthquake anymore, even if I supported the taste of said move. After all, EQ on Navi could remove the anti-censorship stingray as a counter if he has already boosted.
While I'd like to support Psychic Fangs, after some thought, I think keeping Plasmanta (Mollux gets its ass haned by boosted Heavy Slam) is a good idea.
I ran up some counters and checks that should keep Navi in check.
Counters
Plasmanta
Cyclothm
Rotom-W
Ferrothorn
Yeah these are solid enough counters
I don't have enough of an opinion to chime in with a super defined thought, but a part of me is very uneasy to support Heavy Slam because it was discussed and banned during its actual creation. Choosing to include it now goes against one of the clearest competitive decisions of its recent creation.
It was banned at the time because in the netagame it was in, the creators didnt want to make it a broken threat. Obviously thats very far from the truth now, and we are now in an even MORE powerhouse metagame, where most sweepers dont need to rely on multiple boosts to mow through weakened teams. Iron Head may be ok now that Guts is present, but I think it opens up waay too many mons to threaten it, while Heavy Slam allows it to break past certain threats (see Mollux) while still being checked by many threat.
Regarding Naviathan's weight: if 120 BP Heavy Slam is deemed undesirable, I'd prefer it if people vouched for either a weaker alternative or for no change. There is basically zero precedent for a Pokemon's weight changing between generations, and I'd rather not mess with that considering we have other viable paths to take. So I'm tabling the weight change discussion.
That being said, I personally haven't really been convinced either way regarding Heavy Slam's potential addition. The discussion has been rather inconclusive, so I imagine at this point it'd be up to a poll. Some other Steel-type STAB moves that may be worth discussing are Meteor Mash (90 BP) and Gear Grind (effectively 100 BP), as they are stronger than Iron Head but weaker than a full-powered Heavy Slam.
That being said, I personally haven't really been convinced either way regarding Heavy Slam's potential addition. The discussion has been rather inconclusive, so I imagine at this point it'd be up to a poll. Some other Steel-type STAB moves that may be worth discussing are Meteor Mash (90 BP) and Gear Grind (effectively 100 BP), as they are stronger than Iron Head but weaker than a full-powered Heavy Slam.
Gear Grind is not totally accurate but does have the side benefit of wrecking Sash Duggy without relying on Icicle Spear. If people believe Heavy Slam is too strong, Gear Grind seems ideal.
It does have tradeoffs though, Helmet Hawk and Lando really punish it, and 85% Accuracy is not the greatest.
It does have tradeoffs though, Helmet Hawk and Lando really punish it, and 85% Accuracy is not the greatest.
For the record Heavy Slam was taken off the table because picking a move without already having a weight in mind was a process nightmare and because nothing at the time justified the extra power. It wouldn't have been made OP by Heavy Slam then, it was just unnecessary power bundled in with a process headache.
So uh, continue discussion but just keep in mind it was never about it being a move that'd break navaithan or anything, just at the time there was no need for the extra power since Iron Head sufficed.
This is your 24 hour warning for the Competitive Move poll. The slate will likely include Heavy Slam, Liquidation, Psychic Fangs, and Earthquake.
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I took a look at the potential reasons to run Gear Grind, and here they are:
- To bypass the lowered power of Heavy Slam against heavier opponents
- The dual-hit allows Naviathan to break through Focus Sashes
- The reduced base power (compared to 120 BP Heavy Slam) makes it slightly less overwhelming against some enemies
The thing I discovered though after mulling over some calculations is that Gear Grind doesn't really help Naviathan except for allowing Naviathan to bypass the need for Ice coverage thanks to beating Dugtrio and Dragonite. Other than that, you can run Heavy Slam and not really miss out on anything that Gear Grind would help you with. So overall Heavy Slam is more favorable than Gear Grind, despite being very similar and Gear Grind sounding awesome.
Heavy Slam also has the advantage of not getting butchered by Tomohawk, Garchomp, and Lando-T, where Gear Grind ends up taking a lot of Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin damage and proving to have underwhelming damage.
- To bypass the lowered power of Heavy Slam against heavier opponents
- The dual-hit allows Naviathan to break through Focus Sashes
- The reduced base power (compared to 120 BP Heavy Slam) makes it slightly less overwhelming against some enemies
The thing I discovered though after mulling over some calculations is that Gear Grind doesn't really help Naviathan except for allowing Naviathan to bypass the need for Ice coverage thanks to beating Dugtrio and Dragonite. Other than that, you can run Heavy Slam and not really miss out on anything that Gear Grind would help you with. So overall Heavy Slam is more favorable than Gear Grind, despite being very similar and Gear Grind sounding awesome.
Heavy Slam also has the advantage of not getting butchered by Tomohawk, Garchomp, and Lando-T, where Gear Grind ends up taking a lot of Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin damage and proving to have underwhelming damage.
Competitive move discussion is now coming to a close. There has been discussion on Heavy Slam, Liquidation, Psychic Fangs, and Earthquake, and pros and cons have been brought up for all four. However, the inclusion of each of these four moves ultimately depends completely on opinion, so that is why they will be subject to polling. The slate will be:
Include Heavy Slam
Do Not Include Heavy Slam
Include Liquidation
Do Not Include Liquidation
Include Psychic Fangs
Do Not Include Psychic Fangs
Include Earthquake
Do Not Include Earthquake
Obviously, you will not be able to vote to Include and to Not Include the same move in one ballot.
Once again, the poll will take place on another thread, so please do not post your votes here.
Include Heavy Slam
Do Not Include Heavy Slam
Include Liquidation
Do Not Include Liquidation
Include Psychic Fangs
Do Not Include Psychic Fangs
Include Earthquake
Do Not Include Earthquake
Obviously, you will not be able to vote to Include and to Not Include the same move in one ballot.
Once again, the poll will take place on another thread, so please do not post your votes here.
Sorry about the minor delay, folks. As the polls have determined, Naviathan will now have access to Heavy Slam (96% majority) and Psychic Fangs (54% majority). Liquidation and Earthquake will not be included. Overall, these additions will increase the potency of Naviathan as a sweeper by adding a high-powered STAB as well as a great coverage move against threats such as Mollux and Plasmanta. Also taking Guts into account, I think we can safely say that we have achieved our goal of making Naviathan stronger through competitive Ability and Move updates.
Now, we move onto the Consistency stage. Because Naviathan was made in Gen 6, there isn't going to be too much we need to add flavor-wise. However, there may be some Consistency moves you all have in mind that were introduced in Sun and Moon.
Are there any Gen 7 moves that should we add to Naviathan's movepool to conform to its Water/Steel typing or its design?
Now, we move onto the Consistency stage. Because Naviathan was made in Gen 6, there isn't going to be too much we need to add flavor-wise. However, there may be some Consistency moves you all have in mind that were introduced in Sun and Moon.
Are there any Gen 7 moves that should we add to Naviathan's movepool to conform to its Water/Steel typing or its design?
Brutal Swing seems flavorful, given that it has a long head and lots of feather-oars to swing around, and a lot of Pokemon can learn it via TM.
I can also see Ice Hammer and Dragon Hammer (given that it already has Ice Fang, Ice Punch, Icicle Crash, Dragon Dance, and Dragon Claw) as additions, albeit to a lesser extent.
I can also see Ice Hammer and Dragon Hammer (given that it already has Ice Fang, Ice Punch, Icicle Crash, Dragon Dance, and Dragon Claw) as additions, albeit to a lesser extent.
I believe that Anchor Shot is an excellent addition from a flavor standpoint, if for no reasons more than due to boats dropping anchors, but I am a wee bit wary that it may encourage Naviathan to be used as a pivot rather than a sweeper.
Ice Hammer is what I believe to be another decent option, but for power reasons (and I vaguely recall hearing it in the competitive updates; given that it didn't make it to the poll I'm fairly sure that it won't be allowed) I wouldn't be sure that it is a good choice.
Ice Hammer is what I believe to be another decent option, but for power reasons (and I vaguely recall hearing it in the competitive updates; given that it didn't make it to the poll I'm fairly sure that it won't be allowed) I wouldn't be sure that it is a good choice.
I'm iffy on this move, as it'd be the most poweful Dragon move in its movepool, but I don't think people usually run Dragon moves on it anyways, so as long as it rarely runs Dragon moves, then Dragon Hammer is fine by me.
The only other move suggested that I like is Brutal Swing, as it makes sense by Quanyails' logic, and Dark isnt very useful on Navi anyways.
Anchor Shot is STAB that would essentially outclass Iron Head aside from the Flinching Vs. Trapping aspect, so I think that's a bad idea. With Ice Hammer, it acts as coverage to one of its weaknesses (Ground), with little downside (Just a speed drop). I know Water beats it anyways, but I still don't like Ice Hammer on this thing.
As for a move that I would like to propose, Smart Strike is a good option, as I believe it makes sense in flavor (It has sharp edges, and I can see it ramming into the opponent or something), it's a TM, and it has 70 BP and 16 PP, so Iron Head outclasses it in every way aside from ignoring accuracy (Which doesnt matter cause Iron Head is 100% Acc anyways).
The only other move suggested that I like is Brutal Swing, as it makes sense by Quanyails' logic, and Dark isnt very useful on Navi anyways.
Anchor Shot is STAB that would essentially outclass Iron Head aside from the Flinching Vs. Trapping aspect, so I think that's a bad idea. With Ice Hammer, it acts as coverage to one of its weaknesses (Ground), with little downside (Just a speed drop). I know Water beats it anyways, but I still don't like Ice Hammer on this thing.
As for a move that I would like to propose, Smart Strike is a good option, as I believe it makes sense in flavor (It has sharp edges, and I can see it ramming into the opponent or something), it's a TM, and it has 70 BP and 16 PP, so Iron Head outclasses it in every way aside from ignoring accuracy (Which doesnt matter cause Iron Head is 100% Acc anyways).
I don't really like Anchor Shot as flavor. Naviathan doesn't have anything resembling an anchor, and I don't find the reasoning that it's a boat sufficient. It feels like an additional move for novelty's sake.
Likewise, all of the Pokemon that learn Smart Strike have horns or are otherwise pointy. Naviathan doesn't really have horns or points, and it doesn't learn Horn Attack or Fury Attack, so I can't see it getting Smart Strike.
Likewise, all of the Pokemon that learn Smart Strike have horns or are otherwise pointy. Naviathan doesn't really have horns or points, and it doesn't learn Horn Attack or Fury Attack, so I can't see it getting Smart Strike.
Dragon Hammer seems ok, given that it learns Dragon Claw. It won't have much of a competitive impact given that Icicle Crash is much superior coverage anyways.
Brutal Swing won't do much for Naviathan, and it makes some sense flavor-wise. When a Pokemon uses Brutal Swing, it "swings its body around violently to inflict damage on everything in its vicinity," and since Naviathan is a boat, it could steer around a point really fast to hit everything.
Ice Hammer I'm not too sold on. Even though it'd be pretty dumb to run on DD sets given the Speed drop, the extra power it provides over Icicle Crash can probably 2HKO slower mons it wouldn't kill with Icicle Crash. I can run calcs, but yeah I don't like this move.
Anchor Shot is something I absolutely oppose, even if we weren't talking about flavor moves. It's a trapping move with no drawback, and even though it'd compete with Heavy Slam for a moveslot, it'd still be really dumb being trapped by Naviathan when it's not supposed to be.
Smart Strike is a move for things that are pointy, and Naviathan just doesn't really look all that pointy.
Keep in mind that we don't have to go all out with loading flavor moves on Naviathan, it's still a pretty colorful mon to begin with.
Brutal Swing won't do much for Naviathan, and it makes some sense flavor-wise. When a Pokemon uses Brutal Swing, it "swings its body around violently to inflict damage on everything in its vicinity," and since Naviathan is a boat, it could steer around a point really fast to hit everything.
Ice Hammer I'm not too sold on. Even though it'd be pretty dumb to run on DD sets given the Speed drop, the extra power it provides over Icicle Crash can probably 2HKO slower mons it wouldn't kill with Icicle Crash. I can run calcs, but yeah I don't like this move.
Anchor Shot is something I absolutely oppose, even if we weren't talking about flavor moves. It's a trapping move with no drawback, and even though it'd compete with Heavy Slam for a moveslot, it'd still be really dumb being trapped by Naviathan when it's not supposed to be.
Smart Strike is a move for things that are pointy, and Naviathan just doesn't really look all that pointy.
Keep in mind that we don't have to go all out with loading flavor moves on Naviathan, it's still a pretty colorful mon to begin with.
Don't have too much to say on all topics but one: Anchor Shot should be a complete and utter no-go. Trapping moves on a setup sweeper are not easy to manage- there exist scenarios where the hypothetical Navi user lands Anchor Shot on something that can't really touch it back, perhaps using a set specific to enable setup on a larger number of trapped targets, and uses the trap to get setup easily and freely. It's far too strong, as a "consistency" flavor move or otherwise.
GL post: Anchor Shot discussion is now discontinued for the reasons snake and SHSP have pointed out. Flavor issues aside, it's far too competitively useful to be considering at this stage of the process.
Anyway, I went ahead and made a list of all the TM changes from Gen 6 to Gen 7. Hopefully this will be useful for the other Gen 6 mons we're updating as well!
The moves Naviathan already has in its movepool are bolded. So... here are my thoughts on the new TMs.
Anyway, I went ahead and made a list of all the TM changes from Gen 6 to Gen 7. Hopefully this will be useful for the other Gen 6 mons we're updating as well!
The moves Naviathan already has in its movepool are bolded. So... here are my thoughts on the new TMs.
- Work Up: This move doesn't have much flavor associated with it from what I can tell, as its distribution is pretty random. Work Up could be a nice nod to Naviathan's dual-boosting nature. I wouldn't worry about it being a competitively viable option either, as Naviathan can't afford to split its EVs and be an effective mixed attacker due to its average attacking stats. Plus it has better boosting options in Dragon Dance and Calm Mind.
- Brutal Swing: I could totally see Naviathan swinging its oars around for this move, and a 60 BP Dark-type move isn't competitively useful for it. I'd be cool with adding this.
- Smart Strike: Though it's a Steel-type move, Naviathan doesn't really have a horn or a sword or a pointy appendage to jab the opponent with, and there are plenty of Steel-types that don't learn the move. Kinda like Steel Wing in a way.
- Leech Life/Aurora Veil/Fly: no.
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