Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Indigo Plateau]

bludz Appreciate the response man. I'll try to form out an informative post as to why I feel like Amoongus isn't, in my opinion, worthy of residing in A-.

Amoongus vs Tangrowth comparison talks have been going on since I can remember, so I'll try not to delve too deep into that, as the whole point of wanting Gus to drop should only be focused around Gus. But I do want to hit on a couple of points:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the two Mawile sets I see are usually AoA, which carry fire fang, or SD + 3 attacks, which carries knock (at least it should). We could endlessly talk hypotheticals, but if Gus does switch in on play rough + proceeds to take a knock off, it's already doing 98% min, so I'm really not sure how this is a good Mawile answer. It does handle Gengar quite well but if any sort of hazards are up, Gar can 2hko with specs sludge wave.

I also wanted to point out that Tangrowth actually takes less damage from Magearna (w/ or w/o ice beam), Serp at +2, and Gar's shadow ball. Now that's not to say that Tangrowth will necessarily fare better vs. them, as - assuming something isn't already asleep - Gus can still pivot in and put them to sleep. This leaves (at least from the mons you mentioned) Specs Keldeo (under-appreciated imo), Clef, Tapu Bulu, and Nihilego (which has been falling in viability regardless as Terrak is rising). Good thing you pointed out tspikes as I rarely see them and they didn't even come to my Yes, they're still great mons to be able to switch into and pivot, but that's a pretty short list.

Moving on, I'll explain why I think the meta has been unfavorable towards it as of recent:

The banning of Pheromosa, though long ago, led to more spinners/defoggers being used. The two most prominent ones that arose, respectably, were Starmie and Mew. These both pressure Amoongus, and although Starmie isn't excellent, Mew completely screws it over and is the go-to defogger. It can carry taunt, psychic, and not to mention, synchronize.

The banning of Mega Metagross was wonderful news for Magearna and Celesteela, as both lost an offensive check and both beat Gus. The Tapus were seen also seen a bit more, who almost all happen to beat Gus with the help of terrain in Fini and Koko (plus Koko can taunt and/or pivot out). Amoongus wants to beat fairies, but he truth is it can't reliably do so unless your name is Clef.

As new megas got released, primarily when Medicham and Mawile were huge, bulkier psychic types arose in the form of Mew + Reuniclus to check them with WoW and resist Medi's stabs. These both beat Amoongus.

As these (and also ghost types) started getting traction, we started to see dark types, such as Band Tar and Weavile, being used to counter them. They also helped with Latios rising (who also beats Gus) due to their ability to effectively pursuit trap. Both TTar and Weavile beat Gus.

With the release of Mega Heracross (who also beats Gus), these dark types + bulkier builds had a bit of a hard time handling it. As a result, things like Pinsir, Torn-T, and SSSS Lando-T gained more usage due to teams being underprepared for offensive flying types. These also beat Gus.

Besides these meta shifts, if you compare Amoongus to other mons in A-, it is not as influential in a game as them. This isn't to say it's dead weight - it's still an extremely good pivot and, unless an extremely bad matchup occurs, it will do something during the game. However, mons such as the ones mentioned below are more influential, and I'll only slightly touch on this:

Mega Medicham: This having very few switch ins led to a big meta shift, as I'm sure people are aware.

Mega Pinsir: Return is hitting hard af and most teams carry steel types as their answer, which Pinsir has CC for. For faster, more offensively oriented teams, Pinsir has the ability to be a massive threat if it gets to +2 due to QA.

Mega Zam: Being the fastest mon in the tier is a godsend, especially with high SpA and effective coverage in Psychic/Ghost/Fighting to hit (everything?) at least neutrally. HP Fire is also an option, and psychic terrain is a godsend for Zam, denting its switch ins even more. Against bulkier teams, Zam can effectively use either Taunt/CM/Encore to at least cause some headaches. Trace is an amazing ability as well, potentially tracing things like Beast Boost, Swift Swim, etc..

Both Chansey, Skarm, and Sab are stall staples and even Chansey/Skarm aren't bad on offensive teams. Sure, they're passive, but the amount of stuff they blanket check is extremely helpful on some offensive builds.

Mew is the primary defogger of choice and can do so effectively, while simultaneously shutting down the new megas and other offensive stuff like Lando-T and Zygarde that are everywhere.

I could go down the list, but the point that I'm trying to make is that all these mons usually aren't restricted to one role. Amoongus has a specific role to pivot in and set something to sleep due to its lack of offensive presence. It has no utility besides clear smog to stop set-up sweepers, although I'm not sure exactly what set-up sweepers it's stopping in the current meta. After Gus puts something to sleep, it's extremely passive. It doesn't have a good enough secondary role, like most of A- mons due. Yeah sure, it can still pivot in after setting something to sleep.. but then what? This meta is very hard hitting and unforgiving, especially with the introduction of Z moves. Amoongus can't afford to just pivot in and not click Spore, as it's not tanking hits nearly as well as it was in ORAS.

Yes, it's still good at handling things like Ash Ninja before bb, Specs Keld, Clef, and Bulu, but I'm not sure how this merits A-. Jirachi is another mon who also can handle specific threats better than some of its other steel brethren + carries utility in the form of Wish/TWave/Rocks/Serene Grace, yet it resides in B+. Not to mention that losing a ground resistance with Zygarde + Lando being everywhere is a big deal.

I realize this might be similar to above posts but I started it last night so I felt the need to finish the post, lol

 

[vso]

bludz Appreciate the response man. I'll try to form out an informative post as to why I feel like Amoongus isn't, in my opinion, worthy of residing in A-.

Amoongus vs Tangrowth comparison talks have been going on since I can remember, so I'll try not to delve too deep into that, as the whole point of wanting Gus to drop should only be focused around Gus. But I do want to hit on a couple of points:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the two Mawile sets I see are usually AoA, which carry fire fang, or SD + 3 attacks, which carries knock (at least it should). We could endlessly talk hypotheticals, but if Gus does switch in on play rough + proceeds to take a knock off, it's already doing 98% min, so I'm really not sure how this is a good Mawile answer. It does handle Gengar quite well but if any sort of hazards are up, Gar can 2hko with specs sludge wave.

I also wanted to point out that Tangrowth actually takes less damage from Magearna (w/ or w/o ice beam), Serp at +2, and Gar's shadow ball. Now that's not to say that Tangrowth will necessarily fare better vs. them, as - assuming something isn't already asleep - Gus can still pivot in and put them to sleep. This leaves (at least from the mons you mentioned) Specs Keldeo (under-appreciated imo), Clef, Tapu Bulu, and Nihilego (which has been falling in viability regardless as Terrak is rising). Good thing you pointed out tspikes as I rarely see them and they didn't even come to my Yes, they're still great mons to be able to switch into and pivot, but that's a pretty short list.

Moving on, I'll explain why I think the meta has been unfavorable towards it as of recent:

The banning of Pheromosa, though long ago, led to more spinners/defoggers being used. The two most prominent ones that arose, respectably, were Starmie and Mew. These both pressure Amoongus, and although Starmie isn't excellent, Mew completely screws it over and is the go-to defogger. It can carry taunt, psychic, and not to mention, synchronize.

The banning of Mega Metagross was wonderful news for Magearna and Celesteela, as both lost an offensive check and both beat Gus. The Tapus were seen also seen a bit more, who almost all happen to beat Gus with the help of terrain in Fini and Koko (plus Koko can taunt and/or pivot out). Amoongus wants to beat fairies, but he truth is it can't reliably do so unless your name is Clef.

As new megas got released, primarily when Medicham and Mawile were huge, bulkier psychic types arose in the form of Mew + Reuniclus to check them with WoW and resist Medi's stabs. These both beat Amoongus.

As these (and also ghost types) started getting traction, we started to see dark types, such as Band Tar and Weavile, being used to counter them. They also helped with Latios rising (who also beats Gus) due to their ability to effectively pursuit trap. Both TTar and Weavile beat Gus.

With the release of Mega Heracross (who also beats Gus), these dark types + bulkier builds had a bit of a hard time handling it. As a result, things like Pinsir, Torn-T, and SSSS Lando-T gained more usage due to teams being underprepared for offensive flying types. These also beat Gus.

Besides these meta shifts, if you compare Amoongus to other mons in A-, it is not as influential in a game as them. This isn't to say it's dead weight - it's still an extremely good pivot and, unless an extremely bad matchup occurs, it will do something during the game. However, mons such as the ones mentioned below are more influential, and I'll only slightly touch on this:

Mega Medicham: This having very few switch ins led to a big meta shift, as I'm sure people are aware.

Mega Pinsir: Return is hitting hard af and most teams carry steel types as their answer, which Pinsir has CC for. For faster, more offensively oriented teams, Pinsir has the ability to be a massive threat if it gets to +2 due to QA.

Mega Zam: Being the fastest mon in the tier is a godsend, especially with high SpA and effective coverage in Psychic/Ghost/Fighting to hit (everything?) at least neutrally. HP Fire is also an option, and psychic terrain is a godsend for Zam, denting its switch ins even more. Against bulkier teams, Zam can effectively use either Taunt/CM/Encore to at least cause some headaches. Trace is an amazing ability as well, potentially tracing things like Beast Boost, Swift Swim, etc..

Both Chansey, Skarm, and Sab are stall staples and even Chansey/Skarm aren't bad on offensive teams. Sure, they're passive, but the amount of stuff they blanket check is extremely helpful on some offensive builds.

Mew is the primary defogger of choice and can do so effectively, while simultaneously shutting down the new megas and other offensive stuff like Lando-T and Zygarde that are everywhere.

I could go down the list, but the point that I'm trying to make is that all these mons usually aren't restricted to one role. Amoongus has a specific role to pivot in and set something to sleep due to its lack of offensive presence. It has no utility besides clear smog to stop set-up sweepers, although I'm not sure exactly what set-up sweepers it's stopping in the current meta. After Gus puts something to sleep, it's extremely passive. It doesn't have a good enough secondary role, like most of A- mons due. Yeah sure, it can still pivot in after setting something to sleep.. but then what? This meta is very hard hitting and unforgiving, especially with the introduction of Z moves. Amoongus can't afford to just pivot in and not click Spore, as it's not tanking hits nearly as well as it was in ORAS.

Yes, it's still good at handling things like Ash Ninja before bb, Specs Keld, Clef, and Bulu, but I'm not sure how this merits A-. Jirachi is another mon who also can handle specific threats better than some of its other steel brethren + carries utility in the form of Wish/TWave/Rocks/Serene Grace, yet it resides in B+. Not to mention that losing a ground resistance with Zygarde + Lando being everywhere is a big deal.

I realize this might be similar to above posts but I started it last night so I felt the need to finish the post, lol

Half of the issues you find in with Amoonguss also exist in Tangrowth. Both allow Pokemon like Mega Medicham, Mega Mawile, amd Mega Pinsir to come in for free. SD Mega Mawile don't even need to run Knock Off, which helps Amoonguss. Amoon actually has a one time sleep which really, I repeat, really helps it. Mew almost never has Taunt and Synchronize doesn't work with sleep, so Amoonguss won't fall asleep if Mew does. I also simply don't get your claim regarding the Mega Metagross ban. Mega Metagross was a big reason for why Amoonguss wasn't that great because inviting in Mega Metagross is a terrible task to do. I also don't get how Amoonguss does not beat Fini or Koko and hard check Bulu. If you just run a fat steel type with recovery ( Celesteela ) the issues of Mega Zam and Lati get much slimmer. In addition, many Amoonguss have started to run either Stun Spore or Toxic.

Basically the difference between Amoonguss and AV Tangrowth is that Tangrowth has slightly more bulk on both sides of the spectrum, Tangrowth has a ground immunity, and Tangrowth doesn't allow Psychics to come in for free. Amoonguss can put stuff to sleep, not be total bait for stuff like Gengar, has an immunity to Toxic Spikes, and check stuff like Clefable which is rising in popularity. Tangrowth already is two subranks over Amoonguss to reflect the difference, and having it drop an entire rank below Amoonguss is unreasonable.

 

[bludz]

One thing I would like to point out and this isnt necessarily specific to this argument but is a broader idea for nominations and clearing up viability ranking in general. Note this is not to disparage anyone's arguments but is just something I would like to share with respect to how the VR team handles ranking.

Lets say we have pokemon X sitting in A rank. We can argue that it is worse than every other pokemon in A rank, and that is why it should drop. However this begs the question, is it still better than everything in A- rank? If so, now we have a further consideration - which rank does it fit better in? We cant use the first argument because that provides no conclusion.

This is really just to say that it bolsters one's argument to explain why the pokemon would fit better in its new rank by comparing its viability to other pokemon in the new rank - not just those that currently share a rank with it. The Jirachi mention in DownAboves post is a good example of this

 

[Indigo Plateau]

Half of the issues you find in with Amoonguss also exist in Tangrowth. Both allow Pokemon like Mega Medicham, Mega Mawile, amd Mega Pinsir to come in for free. SD Mega Mawile don't even need to run Knock Off, which helps Amoonguss. Amoon actually has a one time sleep which really, I repeat, really helps it. Mew almost never has Taunt and Synchronize doesn't work with sleep, so Amoonguss won't fall asleep if Mew does. I also simply don't get your claim regarding the Mega Metagross ban. Mega Metagross was a big reason for why Amoonguss wasn't that great because inviting in Mega Metagross is a terrible task to do. I also don't get how Amoonguss does not beat Fini or Koko and hard check Bulu. If you just run a fat steel type with recovery ( Celesteela ) the issues of Mega Zam and Lati get much slimmer. In addition, many Amoonguss have started to run either Stun Spore or Toxic.

Basically the difference between Amoonguss and AV Tangrowth is that Tangrowth has slightly more bulk on both sides of the spectrum, Tangrowth has a ground immunity, and Tangrowth doesn't allow Psychics to come in for free. Amoonguss can put stuff to sleep, not be total bait for stuff like Gengar, has an immunity to Toxic Spikes, and check stuff like Clefable which is rising in popularity. Tangrowth already is two subranks over Amoonguss to reflect the difference, and having it drop an entire rank below Amoonguss is unreasonable.

I didn't want this to turn into an Amoongus vs Tangrowth comparison talk, like I mentioned in my post. Not sure why you dedicated half of your post to doing so. Comparing Amoongus to Tangrowth isn't going to help my case as to why I feel Amoongus doesn't belong in A- and hell, if Tangrowth deserves to drop because Amoongus did due to similar flaws then so be it, but that's way besides the point of my post. I briefly mentioned them for the sake of showing some mons Amoongus fares better against. Tangrowth is not "complete" Gengar bait as it can carry EQ and Knock Off.

I thought the standard thing to run on SD was Play Rough, Knock, and Sucker, and if it's not, then my apologies - but that's also what the analysis says. Regardless, two play roughs are doing 81% already if, for whatever bad reason, you don't have fire fang or knock off. Not sure how I've been playing mons for so long and wasn't aware of sleep not working with synchronize, so my b. I said that Mew can, not does, carry taunt, as I'm aware that it usually runs Defog/Psychic/WoW/Softboiled.

My point in bringing up MegaGross getting banned was to show that Celesteela, Magearna, and the Tapus all rose in usage, as well as other Megas who beat Gus.

I never said Amoongus didn't beat Bulu. I said almost all the Tapus do, and I mentioned Bulu being a mon Amoongus walled later on in the post. Tapu Fini can't be put to sleep, carries taunt + nature's madness, and can easily switch out and keep up misty terrain to prevent sleep. Tapu Koko pivots out with u turn and electric terrain also prevents sleep.

I hope that clears stuff up. The meta is still very unkind to Amoongus.

 

[yuukafu]

I pledge for a rise of Buzzwole. With the mass usage of Zygarde, non-Z-move Landorus, Ferrothorn (which has seen greater use since Metagross was banned in order to have a Tapu Lele switch-in), Tangrowth, (non-Zen) Mega-Medicham and sand becoming more popular I feel like Buzzwole should be much higher than C+. It is so much more useful than Gyradaos, Breloom etc in this current meta. It deals with many high-profile physical threats, gets to sub on them and wreck havoc with Focus Punch, Ice Punch and EQ/Leech Life with the possibility to boost. It is often possible to force your opponent to sack two mons to a Buzzwole behind a sub.

It is less strong than Heracross, however, it is far more bulky and gets to carry an item (leftovers) giving it longelivity. It even has options to run roost to wall Zygarde and non-Zen Medicham repeatedly over a match.

It is very rarely dead-weight. One of those mentioned mons are on every team and Buzzwole can easily get in, sub and FPunch for damage.

Sadly I don't have any replays because I didn't save them, but Buzzwole has been doing a lot of work for me. C+ really is way, way too low no matter what. And I would personally put it as high as B+.

 

[SunshineFuture]

I pledge for a rise of Buzzwole. With the mass usage of Zygarde, non-Z-move Landorus, Ferrothorn (which has seen greater use since Metagross was banned in order to have a Tapu Lele switch-in), Tangrowth, (non-Zen) Mega-Medicham and sand becoming more popular I feel like Buzzwole should be much higher than C+. It is so much more useful than Gyradaos, Breloom etc in this current meta. It deals with many high-profile physical threats, gets to sub on them and wreck havoc with Focus Punch, Ice Punch and EQ/Leech Life with the possibility to boost. It is often possible to force your opponent to sack two mons to a Buzzwole behind a sub.

It is less strong than Heracross, however, it is far more bulky and gets to carry an item (leftovers) giving it longelivity. It even has options to run roost to wall Zygarde and non-Zen Medicham repeatedly over a match.

It is very rarely dead-weight. One of those mentioned mons are on every team and Buzzwole can easily get in, sub and FPunch for damage.

Sadly I don't have any replays because I didn't save them, but Buzzwole has been doing a lot of work for me. C+ really is way, way too low no matter what. And I would personally put it as high as B+.

I have to disagree. First of all, Psychic types are everywhere. I fail to see how Mega Medi rising is a good thing. Also, Mega Hera outclasses in almost every way, aside from being able to hold another item besides a mega stone. Also, Lando-T lowers Buzzwole's attack by one. Furthermore, the set for SubPunch does not give Ice Punch. Even if we assume that is run over Poison Jab, it still doesn't OHKO. As Buzzwole is also not very fast, it lets rocks be set up and then for it to pivot out.

-1 192+ Atk Buzzwole Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 196-232 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also, Magearna and Celesteela have been on the rise since MegaMeta's ban. The latter can handle Buzz so long as it has used Autonomize, and Magearna just OHKOs with Fleur Cannon.

252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 204 HP / 12 SpD Buzzwole: 758-894 (186.6 - 220.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

All in all, there isn't a lot going in Buzzwole's favor. In fact, I think it should drop to C. I say that and not C-, due to its niche over Mega Heracross to hold an actual item. However, that isn't enough to me to keep it C+.

 

[palkia246]

Is there a reason that Uxie isn't currently ranked? I feel that if Cresselia should be ranked for the merits it has on Trick Room teams then Uxie most definitely should as well, especially considering that it's gotten so much support for placement on the vr.

As for the Amoonguss discussion, I feel like staying in A- is justified for the time being. Amoonguss may not compare to some of what's in A- right now, but at the same time it really would seem out of place among most of what's in B+. While the recent metagame has been fairly unkind to it, it's responded to a few really huge metagame trends quite well, such as Tapu Fini falling off a bit (less Misty Terrain), Tapu Bulu rising in popularity, and the prevalence of Pokemon that are still important for it to check, like Keldeo, Gengar, Clefable, etc. All in all, I feel that Amoonguss is a bit of a mixed bag in terms of how well it's been responding to metagame trends, but really just doesn't compare to the likes of Serperior, Tapu Fini, and Alolan Marowak in terms of consistency, which is why A- is fine for now.

 

[Hookah Doncic]

I pledge for a rise of Buzzwole. With the mass usage of Zygarde, non-Z-move Landorus, Ferrothorn (which has seen greater use since Metagross was banned in order to have a Tapu Lele switch-in), Tangrowth, (non-Zen) Mega-Medicham and sand becoming more popular I feel like Buzzwole should be much higher than C+. It is so much more useful than Gyradaos, Breloom etc in this current meta. It deals with many high-profile physical threats, gets to sub on them and wreck havoc with Focus Punch, Ice Punch and EQ/Leech Life with the possibility to boost. It is often possible to force your opponent to sack two mons to a Buzzwole behind a sub.

It is less strong than Heracross, however, it is far more bulky and gets to carry an item (leftovers) giving it longelivity. It even has options to run roost to wall Zygarde and non-Zen Medicham repeatedly over a match.

It is very rarely dead-weight. One of those mentioned mons are on every team and Buzzwole can easily get in, sub and FPunch for damage.

Sadly I don't have any replays because I didn't save them, but Buzzwole has been doing a lot of work for me. C+ really is way, way too low no matter what. And I would personally put it as high as B+.

I would have to strongly disagree about the Dos part reason dos is B+ because it has nice natural defensive typing and bulk also has nice Breaking and sweeping potential with z-bounce+dd. Dos breaks common def back bones on teams with the grass+steel+water+ground. With that said I C+ is fine on buzz

Also

I would like to nom rachi from B+ -> A-

Rn SpD rachi is nice gives Stealth rocks,Wish,support,tapu check if SpD, psychic resis. Also it can U turn out on switchs to give momentum. Also has can have nice lures too with Electric, fire, and ice. Overall I think soild Pokémon for A-

 

[Marzbar]

Can someone tell me why Gary deleted my post from this thread today? All I said was that Mega Swampert should have a ranking because Rain is a thing and it's half decent. My post gets deleted for no reason and I'm sick of this shit. It's a Pokémon. It's used in OU. The mega stone is released. Why can't I bring it up? I suggested Mega Swampert might be B rank. I have a swampertite in my game. Are we allowed to talk about it or not? Or do I have to be censored for some reason I'm not aware of? I have never brought it up before.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Can someone tell me why Gary deleted my post from this thread today? All I said was that Mega Swampert should have a ranking because Rain is a thing and it's half decent. My post gets deleted for no reason and I'm sick of this shit. It's a Pokémon. It's used in OU. The mega stone is released. Why can't I bring it up? I suggested Mega Swampert might be B rank. I have a swampertite in my game. Are we allowed to talk about it or not? Or do I have to be censored for some reason I'm not aware of? I have never brought it up before.

Dude, it only got released a few days ago. Its too early to tell its viability.

 

[écarlate]

Can someone tell me why Gary deleted my post from this thread today? All I said was that Mega Swampert should have a ranking because Rain is a thing and it's half decent. My post gets deleted for no reason and I'm sick of this shit. It's a Pokémon. It's used in OU. The mega stone is released. Why can't I bring it up? I suggested Mega Swampert might be B rank. I have a swampertite in my game. Are we allowed to talk about it or not? Or do I have to be censored for some reason I'm not aware of? I have never brought it up before.

I'm pretty sure you are supposed to wait at least a week to nominate a newly released Pokémon to a rank.

 

[Marzbar]

It's not like it's a secret. Mega Swampert exists and it's been used. I merely suggested a B rank and I get shat on by Mods without explanation. Can I at least bring it up? Because I've battled against it. It's legal. It's a point of discussion. So let's discuss it. I'm not asking for all of your kidneys.

 

[Gary]

When any new Mega Stone or Pokemon are released, we wait at least a week before any discussion on their ranking placement is allowed, to minimize theorymoning. Next time I would prefer if you PMed me your concerns instead of addressing it out in the open so it doesn't derail discussion. Thank you.

 

[lightninging]

It's not like it's a secret. Mega Swampert exists and it's been used. I merely suggested a B rank and I get shat on by Mods without explanation. Can I at least bring it up? Because I've battled against it. It's legal. It's a point of discussion. So let's discuss it. I'm not asking for all of your kidneys.

we're not asking for your kidneys either. simply for you to follow the rules of the thread.

spdef rachi is gaining ground and should move up imo. it brings all of its usual utility (rocks, twave, wish support) with a nice variety of offensive lure moves + the constant potential for serene grace hax. compared to a lot of other bulky psychics in the tier it fares a little better vs pursuit trappers, as iron head fucks up both weavile and ttar if they predict incorrectly. being a rock and ice resist is also valuable against both of these mons. a- seems appropriate for it.

 

[Indigo Plateau]

As for the Amoonguss discussion, I feel like staying in A- is justified for the time being. Amoonguss may not compare to some of what's in A- right now, but at the same time it really would seem out of place among most of what's in B+. While the recent metagame has been fairly unkind to it, it's responded to a few really huge metagame trends quite well, such as Tapu Fini falling off a bit (less Misty Terrain), Tapu Bulu rising in popularity, and the prevalence of Pokemon that are still important for it to check, like Keldeo, Gengar, Clefable, etc. All in all, I feel that Amoonguss is a bit of a mixed bag in terms of how well it's been responding to metagame trends, but really just doesn't compare to the likes of Serperior, Tapu Fini, and Alolan Marowak in terms of consistency, which is why A- is fine for now.

I wouldn't call Tapu Bulu rising in popularity a huge metagame trend, and Tapu Fini has been falling for a while now + I haven't seen a difference in Amoongus usage due to this. Also I wouldn't call Gus an answer to Gengar (as I mentioned before). If it can't put Gengar to sleep, it loses, and it can't switch in too safely either.

I feel like Amoongus is more comparable to B+ mons than A- ones.
I gave the Jirachi example in my previous post.
Tapu Fini, although very easy to pressure, is still good because it still serves as an effective blanket check to a lot of the meta, has nature's madness to not be completely passive, and still offers defog support + good typing. If anything, I would feel like it's comparable to Gus because they're both pressured to hell but can still hold back things like Keld, Clef, Ash Ninja, etc..
Torn-T has gained traction for also being a good offensive flying type with its life orb set and having viable coverage/utility in the form of heat wave, knock off, superpower, hp ice, u turn, and taunt. If your team is in need of more of a slight special sponge you can roll with AV. It's by no means as good as other breakers in higher tiers or as good as a pivot as say, Koko, but that's reflected in viability.
Terrak is the go-to scarfer to check stuff like Volc, the most threatening setup sweeper in the game, and has good fighting stab for steels that plague the meta.
Hoopa-U is a bit slept on imo as it can still pull of both specs/scarf (although I don't like scarf much) depending on the build. Lele + Hoopa-U is amazing and the power creep has been very unkind to it, but it's also by no means bad.

The point I'm trying to make is that when I look at B+, I see mons who aren't quite used as often, but can still be very effective depending on the team build and support. A lot of these mons are usually used to patch up holes that the more "popular" mons that usually outclass them can't, and this is very similar to what Gus does. I'm not sure how people can talk a lot about Amoongus's consistency in A- without actually having used it consistently, as I only ever recall seeing it twice on the ladder.

 

[robopoke]

I agree with Spdef Rachi moving up. The increasing usage of Lele and Magearna should be reflected in Jirachi movin up one subrank because it offers valuable U-turn momentum. Wish/Protect suits fatter teams better and having Healing Wish for offensive suqads. You can play with your wincon aggressivly and fully heal it with Healing Wish later.. Psychic, Tbolt or even Toxic etc. are possiblities over Iron Head to cover some team weaknesses.

The Wish/Protect set can scout for potential Tricks from Scarf Lati and scout for Pursuits.

 

[Zukrad]

I pledge for a rise of Buzzwole. With the mass usage of Zygarde, non-Z-move Landorus, Ferrothorn (which has seen greater use since Metagross was banned in order to have a Tapu Lele switch-in), Tangrowth, (non-Zen) Mega-Medicham and sand becoming more popular I feel like Buzzwole should be much higher than C+. It is so much more useful than Gyradaos, Breloom etc in this current meta. It deals with many high-profile physical threats, gets to sub on them and wreck havoc with Focus Punch, Ice Punch and EQ/Leech Life with the possibility to boost. It is often possible to force your opponent to sack two mons to a Buzzwole behind a sub.

It is less strong than Heracross, however, it is far more bulky and gets to carry an item (leftovers) giving it longelivity. It even has options to run roost to wall Zygarde and non-Zen Medicham repeatedly over a match.

It is very rarely dead-weight. One of those mentioned mons are on every team and Buzzwole can easily get in, sub and FPunch for damage.

Sadly I don't have any replays because I didn't save them, but Buzzwole has been doing a lot of work for me. C+ really is way, way too low no matter what. And I would personally put it as high as B+.

B+ is way too high for Buzzwole. The "recent" banning of Mega Meta gave Psychic types much more breathing room, making mons like Latios, Zam, and of course Lele, much more common, which are a problem for Buzzwole. The increase of usage in both Celeestela and Magearna makes Buzzwole's life even harder. Zen Headbutt is not an unpopular option in Mega Medicham, and I don't see why saying "It walls Medicham as long as it doesn't run this very popular option" is a solid argument. I don't have the stats to prove the following, but at least in my experience, I still see Z-Move Lando quite a lot.

 

[BlisseyandChansey123]

I also support Jirachi moving up to A-. I have proposed this way earlier in the thread, but I think it wasn't the right time for a Jirachi rise, looking at how much of the metagame was simply unkind to it.

Here are reasons why I think Jirachi should rise.
1. Jirachi is quite splashable
Jirachi has a very wide movepool as we all know. Because of this, Jirachi can act as a cleric, a set up sweeper with calm mind or Z-Celebrate, a support with wish, protect, toxic and iron head, etc. Jirachi can pass 232 wishes(correct me if I am wrong), which is huge amountes of HP. Looking at Doubles OU, all these reasons contributed to the Jirachi Ban. You can but Jirachi in a Hyper Offensive Team as support, An offensive team, a balance, stall(definitely), and practically almost all kinds of teams because of how much Jirachi has to offer.

2. The Banning of MegaGross
The banning of Megagross dramatically increased the usage of all Tapus, and other fairy types, as they have lost One very big counter. Jirachi also walls Steels, which are rising in Popularity, like AV Magearna and Celesteela, being a steel type itself. Thanks to Jirachi's wide movepool, it serves as a check to Celesteela, one of the most meta defining threats in the metagame, with Thunder or Thunder Bolt. Being immune to toxic helps even better, making Jirachi a good wall to stall teams. All Celesteela can to is to put leech seed of Jirachi, and Jirachi can easily follow up with a Thunder/bolt.

3. Strengths and weaknesses
Jirachi has few weaknesses, as being the same typing as MegaGross. Only weak to ground, dark, fire, and ghost, while offering a massive 9 resistances and immunity to the ever important poison, making it a good teammate for fairies. The prominant Ground type in the OU is dugtrio, which I don't see very often. Pursuit trappers like Weivel and tyranittar(wrong spelling) don't have a high usage in the OU and aren't very common unlike the Omnipresent Landorus-T or Tapu Lele. A-Marowak isn't as common as before. Mimkyu isn't counted because Jirachi has iron head and a higher speed to to take care of it. Fire types don't see much usage anymore as well, although HP fire is still as common as before.

For these reasons, I think Jirachi should rise to A-.

As for Buzzwole, I already argued that it should drop. It should not rise. It is completely fine where it is. There is no reason why the ban of Megagross helped it, I actually think it helped it die out, because Tapu Lele is still everywhere, even more omniprominant than before after the ban, all tapus running around, I think you get my point. There are too many common checks to buzzwole. the only niche it has is that it has more longitivity as a bulky attacker than Mega Heracross with leftovers, but I think it should drop to C even so.

Sum up,

Jirachi= B+-A-
Buzzwole=C+-C

 

[IQMathlete]

I also support Jirachi moving up to A-. I have proposed this way earlier in the thread, but I think it wasn't the right time for a Jirachi rise, looking at how much of the metagame was simply unkind to it.

Here are reasons why I think Jirachi should rise.
1. Jirachi is quite splashable
Jirachi has a very wide movepool as we all know. Because of this, Jirachi can act as a cleric, a set up sweeper with calm mind or Z-Celebrate, a support with wish, protect, toxic and iron head, etc. Jirachi can pass 232 wishes(correct me if I am wrong), which is huge amountes of HP. Looking at Doubles OU, all these reasons contributed to the Jirachi Ban. You can but Jirachi in a Hyper Offensive Team as support, An offensive team, a balance, stall(definitely), and practically almost all kinds of teams because of how much Jirachi has to offer.

2. The Banning of MegaGross
The banning of Megagross dramatically increased the usage of all Tapus, and other fairy types, as they have lost One very big counter. Jirachi also walls Steels, which are rising in Popularity, like AV Magearna and Celesteela, being a steel type itself. Thanks to Jirachi's wide movepool, it serves as a check to Celesteela, one of the most meta defining threats in the metagame, with Thunder or Thunder Bolt. Being immune to toxic helps even better, making Jirachi a good wall to stall teams. All Celesteela can to is to put leech seed of Jirachi, and Jirachi can easily follow up with a Thunder/bolt.

3. Strengths and weaknesses
Jirachi has few weaknesses, as being the same typing as MegaGross. Only weak to ground, dark, fire, and ghost, while offering a massive 9 resistances and immunity to the ever important poison, making it a good teammate for fairies. The prominant Ground type in the OU is dugtrio, which I don't see very often. Pursuit trappers like Weivel and tyranittar(wrong spelling) don't have a high usage in the OU and aren't very common unlike the Omnipresent Landorus-T or Tapu Lele. A-Marowak isn't as common as before. Mimkyu isn't counted because Jirachi has iron head and a higher speed to to take care of it. Fire types don't see much usage anymore as well, although HP fire is still as common as before.

For these reasons, I think Jirachi should rise to A-.

As for Buzzwole, I already argued that it should drop. It should not rise. It is completely fine where it is. There is no reason why the ban of Megagross helped it, I actually think it helped it die out, because Tapu Lele is still everywhere, even more omniprominant than before after the ban, all tapus running around, I think you get my point. There are too many common checks to buzzwole. the only niche it has is that it has more longitivity as a bulky attacker than Mega Heracross with leftovers, but I think it should drop to C even so.

Sum up,

Jirachi= B+-A-
Buzzwole=C+-C

Personally, I'm a huge Jirachi fan; if I don't want to stack too many Ground types on a team and need a SR setter, I typically turn to Jirachi. It's also an awesome check to stuff like Lele and Mega Alakazam (and even Protean Greninja to an extent). However, I still don't believe it's the right time for a rise for it.
(As a quick aside, please do not reference Jirachi's relevance in Doubles as it is irrelevant to how it is here.)
To be fair, Jirachi is indeed versatile with Scarf, Wish-passer, and my favorite SR setter. However, it doesn't do many of these all that well; Scarf is weak and isn't that great of a revenge-killer/cleaner, Wish isn't really needed for offensive teams and on stall Chansey has it beat, and even as a SR setter, while Healing Wish is super duper awesome, Jirachi can't really beat the main hazard removers in the tier, particularly Fini and Excadrill. Even as a specially defensive Steel, you have AV Magearna and Celesteela.
And Z-celebrate/Calm Mind Jirachi is really bad imo. It's a pain to set up, and you can't sweep very well either.
In all honesty, Jirachi cannot check Celesteela. In fact it's the other way around; Jirachi NEVER runs Electric moves while Celesteela Leech Seeds and Flamethrowers our little wish-maker to death. As for Magearna, it can just Volt Switch out (though Jirachi does deal with the Shift Gear set nicely).
Dugtrio is not the only prominent Ground type in OU. You also have Lando-T, Zygarde, Garchomp, etc. all of which are VERY VERY VERY prominent. And all of these, plus Dugtrio, can either set up on Jirachi or outright kill it (unlike Megagross, which outspeeds all bar Dugtrio and has Ice Punch).
And what do you mean Pursuit trappers aren't there -.- Weavile moving to A- is literally a discussion point. And T-tar is seeing a spike in usage too.
So tl;dr Jirachi is somewhat outclassed in what it does, its few weaknesses are all extremely common, and all in all, I don't think Jirachi should rise now.
I have no opinion on Buzzwole.

 

[Leo]

A+--->A
I know this is a bit of a controversial nom but I don't think Lele is as effective or metagame-defining as the rest of the A+ mons and I feel it only gets worse with the new meta trends. The rise of Pursuit trappers like Weavile and Tyranitar puts a lot of pressure on its choiced sets and forces 50-50s with Taunt sets, which deters its wallbreaking potential. Other mons that take advantage of it are also rising such as Celesteela, which has always been a big nuissance for it, and both SpD AV and OTR Magearna, either getting momentum on it or setting up TR. It's also antoher breaker that is extremely threatening on paper but doesn't find as many switchin opportunities in a game to where it ends up not doing much, especially with the aforementioned mons that pressure it whenever it gets a chance to attack. I don't think it deserves to share a rank with truly meta-defining mons like Tangrowth, Volcarona, Zygarde, Greninja and Celesteela, that are either way more splashable, provide more to a team or restrict teambuilding due to how threatening they are. I could see it in the A rank though, sitting next to other scary mons like Mawile, Tapu Bulu and Gengar, that may not be just as threatening as Lele but face similar issues when it comes to their performance in a game.

 

[BlisseyandChansey123]

Personally, I'm a huge Jirachi fan; if I don't want to stack too many Ground types on a team and need a SR setter, I typically turn to Jirachi. It's also an awesome check to stuff like Lele and Mega Alakazam (and even Protean Greninja to an extent). However, I still don't believe it's the right time for a rise for it.
(As a quick aside, please do not reference Jirachi's relevance in Doubles as it is irrelevant to how it is here.)
To be fair, Jirachi is indeed versatile with Scarf, Wish-passer, and my favorite SR setter. However, it doesn't do many of these all that well; Scarf is weak and isn't that great of a revenge-killer/cleaner, Wish isn't really needed for offensive teams and on stall Chansey has it beat, and even as a SR setter, while Healing Wish is super duper awesome, Jirachi can't really beat the main hazard removers in the tier, particularly Fini and Excadrill. Even as a specially defensive Steel, you have AV Magearna and Celesteela.
And Z-celebrate/Calm Mind Jirachi is really bad imo. It's a pain to set up, and you can't sweep very well either.
In all honesty, Jirachi cannot check Celesteela. In fact it's the other way around; Jirachi NEVER runs Electric moves while Celesteela Leech Seeds and Flamethrowers our little wish-maker to death. As for Magearna, it can just Volt Switch out (though Jirachi does deal with the Shift Gear set nicely).
Dugtrio is not the only prominent Ground type in OU. You also have Lando-T, Zygarde, Garchomp, etc. all of which are VERY VERY VERY prominent. And all of these, plus Dugtrio, can either set up on Jirachi or outright kill it (unlike Megagross, which outspeeds all bar Dugtrio and has Ice Punch).
And what do you mean Pursuit trappers aren't there -.- Weavile moving to A- is literally a discussion point. And T-tar is seeing a spike in usage too.
So tl;dr Jirachi is somewhat outclassed in what it does, its few weaknesses are all extremely common, and all in all, I don't think Jirachi should rise now.
I have no opinion on Buzzwole.

I forgot to say that there is Zygarde, Landorus-T, and Garchomp to deal with, my bad. However, it untrue that Jirachi NEVER runs electric moves. Thunder and Thunderbolt are all quite common coverage moves for Special Attack scarf Jirachi. Jirachi also often carries thunder wave. As for Celesteela, the Automize set is shut down with thunderwave and followed up by thunderbolt. As for the mention of doubles, I was just referring to see how effective Jirachi is, despite having that major ground weakness. I know that weavile is viable, this thread says so itself. But my point is, Weavile isn't very common. If you look down in the thread, some of the viable pokemon don't really have the highest usage, so Weavile is not a major problem(although if Weavile gets more common, I'll have to agree with you). However, it is true that Tyrannitar is a problem for Jirachi, but Jirachi can just u turn out without being affected by pursuit.

For excadrill, it sucks and people just barely(this is true, look at the other pages of this thread) use it. It is outclassed by many hazard removers so it barely matters. As for Fini, Jirachi can 2 hit KO Fini with thunderbolt/thunder. With Serene Grace, it might even paralyse fini with a 20% of doing so. Fini is a threat to Attack bias jirachi because of burns, but fini can't do much to it.

Calm Mind Jirachi can be surprisingly effective when set up at the right time with the right pokemon on the enemies side(Chansey is a good set up bait, considering Jirachi is immune to toxic). Z-Celebrate Jirachi doesn't suck 'O', I have used it many times and it helped me go higher in the ladder. Fewpokemon can stop jirachi's rampant and it one of the hardest sets of jirachi revenge kill, having that extra annoying speed boost.

Because of this, I still believe that Jirachi should rise, like the other people do. It has its common ground weakness that holds it back from being any higher, but its good qualities still outshine it.

 

[lightninging]

Personally, I'm a huge Jirachi fan; if I don't want to stack too many Ground types on a team and need a SR setter, I typically turn to Jirachi. It's also an awesome check to stuff like Lele and Mega Alakazam (and even Protean Greninja to an extent). However, I still don't believe it's the right time for a rise for it.
(As a quick aside, please do not reference Jirachi's relevance in Doubles as it is irrelevant to how it is here.)
To be fair, Jirachi is indeed versatile with Scarf, Wish-passer, and my favorite SR setter. However, it doesn't do many of these all that well; Scarf is weak and isn't that great of a revenge-killer/cleaner, Wish isn't really needed for offensive teams and on stall Chansey has it beat, and even as a SR setter, while Healing Wish is super duper awesome, Jirachi can't really beat the main hazard removers in the tier, particularly Fini and Excadrill. Even as a specially defensive Steel, you have AV Magearna and Celesteela.
And Z-celebrate/Calm Mind Jirachi is really bad imo. It's a pain to set up, and you can't sweep very well either.
In all honesty, Jirachi cannot check Celesteela. In fact it's the other way around; Jirachi NEVER runs Electric moves while Celesteela Leech Seeds and Flamethrowers our little wish-maker to death. As for Magearna, it can just Volt Switch out (though Jirachi does deal with the Shift Gear set nicely).
Dugtrio is not the only prominent Ground type in OU. You also have Lando-T, Zygarde, Garchomp, etc. all of which are VERY VERY VERY prominent. And all of these, plus Dugtrio, can either set up on Jirachi or outright kill it (unlike Megagross, which outspeeds all bar Dugtrio and has Ice Punch).
And what do you mean Pursuit trappers aren't there -.- Weavile moving to A- is literally a discussion point. And T-tar is seeing a spike in usage too.
So tl;dr Jirachi is somewhat outclassed in what it does, its few weaknesses are all extremely common, and all in all, I don't think Jirachi should rise now.
I have no opinion on Buzzwole.

Teams beside stall appreciate wish support. Wanna keep that char-x in check the whole game? Pass your lando-t a nice fat wish. Wanna stop Ashgren from transforming? Help out your overwhelmed MVenu with a wish. Want MHera to come in on Zygarde all game long? Wish support. Lots of common mons (i.e. fini, ttar, the aforementioned ones) enjoy semi reliable recovery. It can be very helpful to semistall, balance, and bulky offense. Furthermore, rachi actually fairs rather well against common removers; defog latis cannot do much to it, fini is basically hardwalled and can be ironheaded down, excadrill is a very nearly meme, and starmie doesn't do much to rachi offensively.
Raise rachi pls.

 

[IQMathlete]

I forgot to say that there is Zygarde, Landorus-T, and Garchomp to deal with, my bad. However, it untrue that Jirachi NEVER runs electric moves. Thunder and Thunderbolt are all quite common coverage moves for Special Attack scarf Jirachi. Jirachi also often carries thunder wave. As for Celesteela, the Automize set is shut down with thunderwave and followed up by thunderbolt. As for the mention of doubles, I was just referring to see how effective Jirachi is, despite having that major ground weakness. I know that weavile is viable, this thread says so itself. But my point is, Weavile isn't very common. If you look down in the thread, some of the viable pokemon don't really have the highest usage, so Weavile is not a major problem(although if Weavile gets more common, I'll have to agree with you). However, it is true that Tyrannitar is a problem for Jirachi, but Jirachi can just u turn out without being affected by pursuit.

For excadrill, it sucks and people just barely(this is true, look at the other pages of this thread) use it. It is outclassed by many hazard removers so it barely matters. As for Fini, Jirachi can 2 hit KO Fini with thunderbolt/thunder. With Serene Grace, it might even paralyse fini with a 20% of doing so. Fini is a threat to Attack bias jirachi because of burns, but fini can't do much to it.

Calm Mind Jirachi can be surprisingly effective when set up at the right time with the right pokemon on the enemies side(Chansey is a good set up bait, considering Jirachi is immune to toxic). Z-Celebrate Jirachi doesn't suck 'O', I have used it many times and it helped me go higher in the ladder. Fewpokemon can stop jirachi's rampant and it one of the hardest sets of jirachi revenge kill, having that extra annoying speed boost.

Because of this, I still believe that Jirachi should rise, like the other people do. It has its common ground weakness that holds it back from being any higher, but its good qualities still outshine it.

...What the hell is special scarf Jirachi?
Also, minor nitpick, Pursuit still works even with U-turn.
I'll admit, I was wrong about Jirachi not beating hazard removers (my bad). But in what world does Jirachi 2HKO Fini with Thunder...
252 SpA Jirachi Thunder vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 144-170 (41.9 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's with Thunder. Not Thunderbolt.
Also I will reiterate, Jirachi does. Not. Use. Electric. Moves. Particularly not on defensive or SR sets, which only run Iron Head and maayyybe Body Slam. Z-Happy Hour is the only set I know that does that, and it's a rare set now. (More on that later)
CM Jirachi has been extinct for a LONG time now, fren. The last time I saw it was gen 5. It's just outshined by basically any other CM user e.g. Reuniclus, Tapu Lele, Keldeo, Clefable etc. It's weak even with boosts (compared to offensive CMers), not all that bulky for a defensive CMer (while you could argue that Clefable is less bulky, it has a far better typing), and all in all, is a poor Calm Mind user.
Z-Happy Hour (its correct name actually) is not a terrible set per se, but I still think it's somewhat bad (would appreciate you showing replays of it actually finding an opportunity to sweep). It's weak even with a boost (if you still think base 100 is good now, I have no clue what to say), it will get worn down through the match, and in all honesty, you could do better with defensive Rachi and a different sweeper. In addition, good luck finding a chance to set up with the omnipresent Ground types running around. You require SO much team support (something to weaken bulky Waters, something to take care of the holy quadruple of Grounds, something for Heatran) and for what? A decently bulky, somewhat fast, somewhat weak "sweeper". And Lando-T and Zygarde still laugh at you.
lightninging I personally feel that balance/BO would prefer Healing Wish rather than Wish. But that's just me. Also, with fast Fini starting to be a thing, Jirachi does get trolled by Taunt+Nature's Madness. But I was wrong about the other hazard removers.
And here are a few of my own points for why I'm against a Jirachi rise.
- Sharing a typing with Mega Metagross does not automatically make it good. In fact, as Jirachi lacks priority and power, there's little to stop Dugtrio from coming in and eating you alive.
- Once again, its weaknesses are common. Ground types are on every team, Jirachi is perfect setup bait for the likes of Volcarona, and Ash-Gren and Gengar can still kill it easily.
- The SR setter is prone to getting worn down (even though it's the set that I use most). You literally have no recovery, and unlike Magearna, you don't have superhuman bulk with Assault Vest.
- Speaking of which, while Jirachi has its nice points like Healing Wish, U-turn, Stealth Rock, Wish, Psychic typing, etc. I still feel that Magearna and Celesteela are the better picks overall. While this could end up turning into a 3-way pro-con war (which I don't want it to), the latter two have better secondary typings, extreme versatility in the case of the former, and the ability to not get fucked by Dugtrio for the latter.
I still feel like relatively little has really changed for Jirachi for the positive. Keep it in B+.

 

[lightninging]

...What the hell is special scarf Jirachi?
Also, minor nitpick, Pursuit still works even with U-turn.
I'll admit, I was wrong about Jirachi not beating hazard removers (my bad). But in what world does Jirachi 2HKO Fini with Thunder...
252 SpA Jirachi Thunder vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 144-170 (41.9 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's with Thunder. Not Thunderbolt.
Also I will reiterate, Jirachi does. Not. Use. Electric. Moves. Particularly not on defensive or SR sets, which only run Iron Head and maayyybe Body Slam. Z-Happy Hour is the only set I know that does that, and it's a rare set now. (More on that later)
CM Jirachi has been extinct for a LONG time now, fren. The last time I saw it was gen 5. It's just outshined by basically any other CM user e.g. Reuniclus, Tapu Lele, Keldeo, Clefable etc. It's weak even with boosts (compared to offensive CMers), not all that bulky for a defensive CMer (while you could argue that Clefable is less bulky, it has a far better typing), and all in all, is a poor Calm Mind user.
Z-Happy Hour (its correct name actually) is not a terrible set per se, but I still think it's somewhat bad (would appreciate you showing replays of it actually finding an opportunity to sweep). It's weak even with a boost (if you still think base 100 is good now, I have no clue what to say), it will get worn down through the match, and in all honesty, you could do better with defensive Rachi and a different sweeper. In addition, good luck finding a chance to set up with the omnipresent Ground types running around. You require SO much team support (something to weaken bulky Waters, something to take care of the holy quadruple of Grounds, something for Heatran) and for what? A decently bulky, somewhat fast, somewhat weak "sweeper". And Lando-T and Zygarde still laugh at you.
lightninging I personally feel that balance/BO would prefer Healing Wish rather than Wish. But that's just me. Also, with fast Fini starting to be a thing, Jirachi does get trolled by Taunt+Nature's Madness. But I was wrong about the other hazard removers.
And here are a few of my own points for why I'm against a Jirachi rise.
- Sharing a typing with Mega Metagross does not automatically make it good. In fact, as Jirachi lacks priority and power, there's little to stop Dugtrio from coming in and eating you alive.
- Once again, its weaknesses are common. Ground types are on every team, Jirachi is perfect setup bait for the likes of Volcarona, and Ash-Gren and Gengar can still kill it easily.
- The SR setter is prone to getting worn down (even though it's the set that I use most). You literally have no recovery, and unlike Magearna, you don't have superhuman bulk with Assault Vest.
- Speaking of which, while Jirachi has its nice points like Healing Wish, U-turn, Stealth Rock, Wish, Psychic typing, etc. I still feel that Magearna and Celesteela are the better picks overall. While this could end up turning into a 3-way pro-con war (which I don't want it to), the latter two have better secondary typings, extreme versatility in the case of the former, and the ability to not get fucked by Dugtrio for the latter.
I still feel like relatively little has really changed for Jirachi for the positive. Keep it in B+.

Rachi brings utility+reliable recovery to the table, differentiating it from mag and cele. A- is below both of those other steel types; rachi rising doesn't mean those other moms aren't better, simply that rachi is getting better. A recent trend supporting this is actually the decrease in Duggy, which i've been seeing less and less recently. Decreased duggy usage only aids rachi in performing its role.
Side note: half the goddamn tier seems to be setup bait for volc, that's hardly anything abnormal. If anything, body slam/twave/uturn do a better job punishing volc switching in than a lot of other mons.

 

[dk]

@ above:

This is pretty minor, but I can guarantee you that Wish Jirachi will never be the reason it deserves to rise. The best set is still the pivot SR set that typically runs Max HP / SpD investment / speed creep with Iron Head / U-turn / Stealth Rock / Filler (typically Healing Wish)--Wish Jirachi either has poor role compression because you sacrifice Stealth Rock or U-turn for Protect or is just complete ass cakes because you will likely rarely be able to heal up Jirachi with Wish because you lack Protect (think of Jirachi pivoting into a Lele's Psychic, clicking Wish, and then being forced out by Lando before it can receive its own Wish).