CAP 23 CAP 23 - Part 6 - Secondary Ability Discussion

[Quanyails]

It's time for Secondary Ability! LucarioOfLegends will be leading the discussion again.

Some general rules for this discussion:

• Custom abilities are banned. No exceptions. Posts suggesting custom abilities will be deleted.
• There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion. Posts suggesting banned abilities will be deleted.
• Flavor abilities do not have any place in this thread. Do not bring up flavor reasoning. Posts that rely on flavor reasoning will be deleted.

The following abilities are banned from this discussion:

Secondary Ability Banlist

Air Lock
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Battle Bond
Color Change
Dark Aura
Defeatist
Delta Stream
Desolate Land
Disguise
Fairy Aura
Forecast
Full Metal Body
Fur Coat
Huge Power
Illusion
Imposter
Moody
Multitype
Parental Bond
Power Construct
Primordial Sea
Prism Armor
Protean
Pure Power
RKS System
Schooling
Shadow Shield
Shadow Tag
Shields Down
Slow Start
Stance Change
Teravolt
Truant
Turboblaze
Victory Star
Water Bubble
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode

Arena Trap
Beast Boost
Comatose
Drizzle
Drought
Electric Surge
Fluffy
Grassy Surge
Innards Out
Magic Bounce
Magic Guard
Misty Surge
Prankster
Psychic Surge
Sand Stream
Snow Warning
Speed Boost
Stamina
Triage

Battery
Big Pecks
Friend Guard
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Power of Alchemy
Receiver
Run Away
Symbiosis
Telepathy

Be careful not to discuss any of these abilities. If you want to learn why they're banned from discussion, you can check out the Policy Review threads that created this list here and here.


---------------------------


CAP 23 So Far:

Typing: Dragon/Ghost
Primary Ability: Comatose
Stats: 84 HP / 133 Atk / 71 Def / 51 SpA / 111 SpD / 101 Spe

Concept:

Name: Wait! It's a Trap Move!

Description: A Pokémon that can make effective use of semi-trapping, fully trapping, or self-trapping move(s).

Justification: Trapping is a somewhat polarized mechanic in the current SM metagame. In terms of ability-based trappers we have Dugtrio, perhaps one of the most hated (or most loved, really depends on the situation) Pokémon thanks to its ability Arena Trap. There is also the occasionally seen Magnezone that uses Magnet Pull to lure in and decimate Steel type Pokemon. All trapping effects are ignored by the Shed Shell item or simply by being a Ghost type. However, this is not the kind of trapping I want to focus on. Focusing on abilities leaves few options, and the general mechanics are the same: Lure, Trap, Destroy. Nothing much new is to be found there.

So, instead, I would like this concept to focus on trapping moves. For those unfamiliar with the term, there are a few types of trapping moves which I will make an attempt to explain here. A semi- or partially trapping move prevents the opponent from switching out for a set number of turns while also usually doing a set percent of damage. Example moves would be Whirlpool, Fire Spin, Infestation, and Magma Storm (but don't use that last one, it's legendary exclusive!). There are also what I like to call fully trapping moves, moves that prevent the opponent from switching not for a set number of turns, but instead until the Pokémon who used the move leaves the battlefield. This category includes moves such as Block as well as the brand-new Gen 7 moves of Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle. Also are what I call self-trapping moves, which is just Ingrain to my knowledge. This move (and if any similar ones come about) lock the USER into battle. Lastly, just to make sure I cover all my bases, Fairy Lock is an interesting trapping move that prevents any Pokémon, friend or foe, from leaving the battlefield on the following turn only (Barring the usual exceptions).

This concept fits in the Actualization and Archetype categories. Trapping moves are exceedingly rare in their usage. The most effective in OU currently is Magma Storm Heatran, but this is by far not its only nor its best set. Expanding our gaze slightly we may find the strange Stall-Trap or Perish-Trap strategies in use in varying parts of the ladder. Even further? Ok then, in Ubers you can find an excellent example of self-trapping in Ingrain Xerneas, which helps prevent the opponent from forcing Xerneas out after it has set up its boosts. In addition, one could look at SD Trapper Decidueye that sets up with Swords Dance after trapping a helpless opponent via Spirit Shackle. Dhelmise can also use Anchor Shot, though I'm not terribly sure as to how that set works... Regardless, that makes about four solid examples of trapping moves across four different tiers, and none of the sets are by any means the only or most effective sets those Pokémon can run (Except maybe Dhelmise. Is there an RU player here who can help me out with that thing?). Overall, the relative rarity of these moves in competitive play when contrasted with the seemingly powerful effect of locking in the opponent begs a variety of questions about the nature and use of said trapping moves. To best explore these moves, designing a Pokémon to use and abuse them makes the most sense for understanding how to properly use them (whatever that would mean).

Questions To Be Answered:
(Base) Is there a 'best' way to utilize trapping moves? If so, what playstyle does it most align with?
(Base) Is there a 'best' type of trapping move overall, or are they each truly viable in their own ways?
(Base) What is the value in trapping the opposing Pokémon? Are certain traps better than others? Why?
(Base) What synergies work well with trapping moves? Why do they have such a great synergy, and how can that be expanded or dealt with in the process of teambuilding?
(Comparison) How do trapping moves compare against trapping abilities? Are there any inherent benefits and disadvantages and if so, what are they?
(Metagame) Are there any particular archetype matchups in which a trapping-move Pokémon would have an advantage? A disadvantage? Why is that?
(Metagame) What has contributed to the lack of presence of trapping moves in our metagame? Is it a plethora of other options, a lack of viable abusers, or something else?
(Metagame) How does the trapping mechanic interact with the value of switching out?[/SIZE]

Threats list

CAP23 should target and dismantle:
a. Defensive pivots/walls (e.g. doesn't use VoltTurn): Tomohawk, Toxapex, Tangrowth, Arghonaut, Pyroak, Mollux, Mega Venusaur, Zapdos
If successfully trapped, these Pokemon will have a difficult time against CAP23, through CAP23's offensive coverage or utility.

CAP23 should target and pressure (Pokemon that have methods to escape CAP23 and should not threaten a healthy CAP23 AND offensive Pokemon that CAP23 naturally checks):
b. VoltTurn pivots: Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Volkraken, other VoltTurners whose coverage CAP23 resists
These are VoltTurn pivots we should not lose to. CAP23 has a general type advantage over these, so they should be pressured into switching out, rather than having a free U-turn or Volt Switch.
c. Offensive Pokemon: Excadrill, Volcarona, Keldeo, Tapu Bulu, Mega Charizard Y, Calm Mind Naviathan, other Pokemon whose coverage CAP23 resists
CAP23 should generally not lose to Pokemon whose moves are resisted: as such, these Pokemon should fear CAP23 to some degree.

CAP23 should be checked by:
d. Offensive Steel-types: Kitsunoh, Dragon Dance Naviathan, Mega Mawile, Bisharp
e. Ice-types: Syclant, Kyurem-B, Ninetales-A
These Pokemon have the coverage, bulk, or power to tackle CAP23.
f. Dragon-types: Zygarde, Mega Charizard X, Latios, Garchomp
g. Ghost-types: Mimikyu, Kitsunoh, Gengar
These two types have a type advantage over CAP23, but the reverse is also true, so they are checks.
h. Dark-types: Ash-Greninja, Greninja, Colossoil, Mega Sableye, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Gyarados
i. Fairy-types: Tapu Lele, Kerfluffle, Mega Diancie, Mega Gardevoir, Clefable
These Pokemon have the bulk, super-effective STAB-boosted coverage, or other qualities to check CAP23.

CAP23 should be countered by:
j. Skarmory, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, Tapu Fini
These Pokemon generally have the bulk to take on a Ghost-type STAB, resist or are immune to CAP23's Dragon-type STAB, and generally do not care about CAP23's trapping effect. Tapu Fini in particular blocks CAP23's ability to use Toxic.

Topic Leader: snake_rattler
Typing Leader: HeaLnDeaL
Ability Leader: LucarioOfLegends
Stats Leader: reachzero
Movepool Leader: cbrevan

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Welcome back! Now we have to decide upon a secondary ability for our drowsy dragon. A couple of things to begin with:

Keep in mind that Comatose is a very strong ability based on its own merits. Weaker abilities, which we desire for our secondary ability, will have a tough time competing with Comatose. I'd like to see abilities discussed that are inferior to Comatose in terms of power, but aren't relegated to some super niche strategy. In other words, aim for our secondary ability to be like Stratagem's secondary (where Levitate is usually the preferred option, but Technician is still a viable, although underrated, choice of ability). Because of Comatose's activation message, keep in mind that secondary abilities will likely not be able to "surprise" the opponent, and abilities that rely heavily on this surprise factor will not work in the context of a battle. Also, if the ability does nothing for the concept, it's a flavor ability. There's a discussion for that later.

Now, here are some starting questions:

Does CAP23 need a secondary ability? What aspect of CAP23 or its threatlist have we not properly addressed yet? Which abilities accomplish this need?

Do any of the abilities mentioned during Primary Ability Discussion have merit as a secondary ability?

 

[S. Court]

Does CAP23 need a secondary ability? What aspect of CAP23 or its threatlist have we not properly addressed yet? Which abilities accomplish this need?

I think Comatose solves the main trouble and that's consistency due to not being crippled by status now, but it has a slighty trouble and it's a way to deal with Tomohawk in a more consistent way without relying too much in a recoil move as is Brave Bird or using the Z-Move slot. It's important to point if we use Flyinium Z sets in the wrong moment, defensive Tomohawk could Roost stall us and that'd be a trouble

Do any of the abilities mentioned during Primary Ability Discussion have merit as a secondary ability?

Strong Jaw can boost Psychic Fangs and give us a way to play around Tomohawk without relying in Brave Bird and being recoil stalled, it'd be useful to Ice Fangs too to deal with Landorus-T easier

252 Atk Life Orb Strong Jaw Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 283-335 (68.3 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Strong Jaw Giratina Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 296-354 (77.4 - 92.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[david0895]

Since Comatose announce itself, Volt Absorb can be brought back as a possible option as it allows CAP23 to deal even better with Electric threats.

 

[Dogfish44]

Does CAP23 need a secondary ability? What aspect of CAP23 or its threatlist have we not properly addressed yet? Which abilities accomplish this need?
Of the list of Pokémon who we're expected to be able to hit hard, Tomohawk stands out as the one who's realistically able to stall us out. Roost only has 16 PP, but we're likely only using Psychic Fangs (Which 2HKOs so rarely that Tomo would be able to pip us down with Air Slashes whilst LO Recoil kills us) or Brave Bird (Tomo uses Roost more and we end up KOing ourselves). In practice we will likely just Toxic Tomohawk, but it'd be nice to have a less stallish alternative.

Although it wasn't raised previously, Dazzling (Or Queenly Majesty) allows us to tailor CAP23 into a Tomohawk counter, albeit at the cost of our status immunity whoops this is what happens when Bulbapedia is vague in it's wording, doesn't list any self-targetting on the list of moves it explicitly says it doesn't stop, and you post things with a cold at 2 AM. This is perhaps similar to Strong Jaw, which Victor's already mentioned - Dazzling more specificially targets Tomohawk, rather than allowing us to grab a hit on Landorus-T as well.

Another problem that we may run into for this CAP is a reliance on Toxic as our anti-stall measure. A few of us nattered on Discord about the value of Infiltrator - it perhaps doesn't cover modern threats (The only current user of Substitute is Dugtrio, who now loathes the Arena Trap ban I believe), but there is a chance that people may occasionally opt to using Substitute in order to counteract any Toxic plays.

So yeah, ideas based on nattering with people. They're always fun :P

 

[Mx]

Does CAP23 need a secondary ability? What aspect of CAP23 or its threatlist have we not properly addressed yet? Which abilities accomplish this need?

I don't see why a second ability is needed. Comatose is incredibly powerful and versatile, allowing you to absorb any status, so for another ability to ever be considered over it, it should be really powerful too. Therefore, I'm inclined to support No Competitive Ability.

Do any of the abilities mentioned during Primary Ability Discussion have merit as a secondary ability?

Of the abilities slated in the Primary Ability Poll, the only I would even consider is Strong Jaw, the other ones are either too strong (Defiant and Tough Claws), or are completely outclassed by Comatose (Shield Dust)

 

[Panic Station]

Since Comatose announce itself, Volt Absorb can be brought back as a possible option as it allows CAP23 to deal even better with Electric threats.

David said it before I could. To elaborate, it was brought up (probably too soon, in hindsight) in Primary that Volt Absorb would shut down Volt Switch mons, which are a significant part of our pressure list. Keeping pokemon from pivoting out is very pro-concept and Volt Absorb is a better option than Lightningrod or Motor Drive because it provides an extra benefit without messing with speed tiers.

 

[jas61292]

To put things quite simply, Comatose is a super strong ability, to the extent that any ability we pick here would have to be so specifically useful that it would overshadow the primary, or else it will not see any use at all. Our entire concept is about the role we play, and the best use of a secondary ability is to allow something to more easily play a secondary role. That is not something we should be aiming for here, and so I strongly stand behind not having a secondary competitive ability.

And to be completely honest, I think the obsession with Tomohawk is unhealthy for the project. Maybe it ends up that we cannot reliably beat it from full health. That doesn't doom us or make us fail. We are already going to be absurdly good as we have chosen some of the strongest choices at every single stage so far. Options bloat just because we are afraid of one Pokemon is never a good choice to make.

 

[Reviloja753]

Honestly, it’s Strong Jaw if we want to maintain our offensive stance, or nothing if we want to settle with ToxicStall. The main idea of Strong Jaw is a set of STABs with Psychic and Ice Fangs to handle the top two treats in the game, Tomo and Lando.

252+ Atk Life Orb Strong Jaw Giratina Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 309-367 (74.6 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Basically a 3HKO, but we do still lose to Rocky Helmet so we’re basically fucked with Tomo aaaa)

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Strong Jaw Giratina Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 328-390 (85.8 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

 

[G-Luke]

I like Defiant as a secondary ability option. As jas said, Comatose is EXTREMELY good, and while Defiant isnt as useful as in Gen 6, its still a decent pick to punish Sticky Web, Intimidate and Defog.

 

[VannAccessible]

Does CAP23 need a secondary ability? What aspect of CAP23 or its threatlist have we not properly addressed yet? Which abilities accomplish this need?

At this point, I am leaning towards No Competitive Ability. Comatose is a stellar ability, that accomplishes what it needs to to target defensive mons, but it also unfortunately takes out any lure factor for its secondary ability. The second you see it NOT asleep, you know which ability is rocking, so that argument is out the window.

Comatose coupled with CAPs high special defense/resists already give it enough defensive utility to switch in, and its speed and high attack coupled with a spammable Spirit Shackle allows CAP to trap switch ins and let CAP handle its targets.

The Tomohawk hype is overblown. It should be remembered, we DO want to lure it in to some degree. CAP shouldn't be able to always beat Tomo, but CAP can be customized to target it specifically if it needs. I believe CAP can beat it in a number of ways - an appropriate Z-Move Brave Bird/Zen Headbutt, Psychic Terrain Support+Zen Headbutt, or some combination of Toxic (or Curse?), bulk investment and Leftovers + offensive pressure.

Do any of the abilities mentioned during Primary Ability Discussion have merit as a secondary ability?

Tough Claws/Strong Jaw have sailed, as CAP's base attack is plenty good without them to beat Landorus and Tomohawk. Anymore power will tamper with our checks.

I used to be able see the argument for Volt Absorb, but it isn't necessary to target Zapdos as CAP outspeeds it by a point, so it can hit it hard before it can Volt Switch away. Besides, no smart player will switch Zapdos in with this ability.

Defiant never was pro-concept as it deinsentivizes Landorus from switching in, and it is perhaps our most important target.

 

[Deck Knight]

There are three abilities I think worth considering as counterparts or niches distinct enough from Comatose:

Early Bird addresses one particular negative side effect of Comatose, in that it prevents CAP from using Rest. CAP's spread is sufficiently bulky that Early Bird along with Rest and a more defensive spread is a much more viable way to address some of the bulkier threats. In my own stat submission I pointed out a potential defensive set that utilizes Ghost Curse and partial trapping damage to get around particularly Poison and Steel typed walls immune to Toxic. Early Bird Rest is one of the best combinations with that set, and allays potential concerns with more reliable forms of recovery.

Mold Breaker is pretty simple. It lets you trap Cyclohm through Shield Dust, Bypass Dragonite's Multiscale (and Syclant's Mountaineer with rock moves on the switchin), Toxic Mega Sableye if you encounter it, use Ground coverage Z-Moves against Rotom if we pursue that route, basically Mold Breaker puts in work.

Magician may not be as justifiable with Arena Trap and therefore Shed Shell gone from some sets, but Itemless Magician allows you to trap an opponent and simultaneously steal their item (or reveal they have a Z-Crystal of some kind.) Pilfering Leftovers, Life Orb, and Rocky Helmets could be great. Just need to be careful of Flame Orb on Soil / Navi. An opponent losing an item and simultaneously not being able to switch in a strong form of offensive pressure.

 

[nyttyn]

I don't think CAP 23 needs a a viable alternative ability, nor would it be a good idea to slap one on. All of the abilities that gained traction during Primary ability are all, for the most part, either too strong or are a worse version of Comatose. It's already going to be a bit rough to play around CAP 23 as it is - any ability that interferes with that further would, in my opinion, run the risk of pushing it over the edge.

From that standpoint, I think Shield Dust is also okay, since it's a mostly worse comatose that has a super niche usage that doesn't change much.

 

[Trox]

Does CAP23 need a secondary ability? What aspect of CAP23 or its threatlist have we not properly addressed yet? Which abilities accomplish this need?

I think the threat of VoltTurners is still a Problem, especially since we don't outspeed all of them. Naturally, Volt Absorb would be a solid idea. It basically helps us trap Pokemon, we currently cannot trap. The 25% heal would also be a solid addition to our longevity, without allowing us to beat things we should not beat.

I used to be able see the argument for Volt Absorb, but it isn't necessary to target Zapdos as CAP outspeeds it by a point, so it can hit it hard before it can Volt Switch away. Besides, no smart player will switch Zapdos in with this ability.

I see your point, put Zapdos isn't the only Volt Switcher. There are Tapu Koko or Krilowatt as well as Scarfed Mons that can outspeed and Volt Switch on us freely.
Also Volt Switch would only be our secondary ability, so the opponent doesn't know if we have it at all.

Threatlist

b. VoltTurn pivots: Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Volkraken, other VoltTurners whose coverage CAP23 resists
These are VoltTurn pivots we should not lose to. CAP23 has a general type advantage over these, so they should be pressured into switching out, rather than having a free U-turn or Volt Switch.

Volt Absorb gives us:
- the option to pressure Volt Switchers into hard switching instead of using Volt Switch
- free hits against the Pokemon that switches in, possibly trapping them with a further option of beating them if we have the proper coverage move (which is also fulfilling our concept).
- free switch in opportunities with an included 25% heal

Do any of the abilities mentioned during Primary Ability Discussion have merit as a secondary ability?

No I don't think so.

Strong Jaw helps us beat Mons on our target list, but basically it just eases up matchups we can already win. It doesn't provide anything new to fulfilling our concept, so I don't think it is a Ability worht having.

Mold Breaker is already a great ability in itself. Even tho it can help us against some Volt Switchers like Cyclohm or Rotom Wash, we already beat them and Volt Switch does help us way more in beating them consistantly. Also it has the problem that we are able to threaten one of our few devensive checks in Mega Sableye more easily. Also, it removes Mimikyu as a checks, since it bypasses its Disguise.

Early Bird does help us nowhere to fulfil our concept, so I am pretty much against it.
In response to DK's post about it, I also want to mention that Ghost Curse would enable us to threaten our counters. Ghost Curse + Rest is basically unviable since it costs us 50% to use and another turn to heal up, but can turn out dangerous against our counters if it works, so I think that if we are willing to waste our second ability on something that supports such a gimmick, we can also go with No Competitive Ability.
Also it would probably screw the art thread completely over

 

[Sereg]

Does CAP23 need a secondary ability? What aspect of CAP23 or its threatlist have we not properly addressed yet? Which abilities accomplish this need?

It was decided in assessment that a viable trapper needs a lot of flexibility. While Comatose is strong, having other, viable options allows our Cap to more easily fulfill its niche on a meta-wide scale without having too much power in a single set.

While Comatose allows us to more easily deal with walls we trap, it doesn't do anything to make it easier to spring to trap in the first place, or to maintain the trap once up.

VoltTurn, Parting Shot and Ghosts still are immune to our traps and we do want to target VoltTurners.

We also don't want to be in a situation where we've trapped something but have ended up in a situation that requires us switching out to fix as that costs us the trap.

As such, electric immunity abilities like Volt Absorb are helpful to trap Volt Switchers we'd otherwise be unable to trap. Rough Skin/Iron Barbs punishes U-Turners who are even more common and helps us deal chip damage to those who try get rid of us before our trap has become fruitful. Defiant means having our stats lowered by problems like Landorus (who is a target) matters less and it also punishes things like Defog and Sticky Web which are also annoying. If that is considered too strong though, an alternative is Clear Body/White Smoke. A more niche example is Oblivious to protect us from having our target limit our move options, which will be annoying.

Do any of the abilities mentioned during Primary Ability Discussion have merit as a secondary ability?


Yes. Some were mentioned above. Volt Absorb was vetoed for being to powerful with the surprise factor, but Comatose announcing itself means that the surprise factor is removed and this is no longer too powerful an option.

Defiant is seen as anti-concept by some for making Landorus less likely to switch in. My response is that if a mon we are targeting is too scared to switch in, it means we are doing our job. We are limiting a team's options as a punishment for running a mon we target. We are pressuring a mon we target so much, it is too scared to switch in.

A common sentiment through this process is that we have to "lure in" the mon we target by not being too good against them. I think that is a silly way of thinking of it. If we make ourselves too safe for those mon, we're not actually targeting them effectively. If we target them effectively, at a design stage, it means that everyone knows our targets and our lure becomes useless. Don't design t lure our targets. Design so that we can deal with our targets effectively should we end up together and if they are too afraid to meet us, we have already effectively targeted them.

On other abilities mentioned prior, Shield Dust is mostly a worse Comatose that helps us in niche cases, such as againt Tomohawk, which people do want to target, so that's nice.

 

[david0895]

I agree that Mold Breaker and Strong Jaw have a good niche that allow CAP23 to beat easily some specific targets (M-sableye, Rotom-W, Cyclohm, etc...).
Instead, there are not enough motivations to use Defiant and Shield Dust since they're useful only into particular cases (Landorus, Sticky Web and hax)

 

[VannAccessible]

Defiant is seen as anti-concept by some for making Landorus less likely to switch in. My response is that if a mon we are targeting is too scared to switch in, it means we are doing our job. We are limiting a team's options as a punishment for running a mon we target. We are pressuring a mon we target so much, it is too scared to switch in.

A common sentiment through this process is that we have to "lure in" the mon we target by not being too good against them. I think that is a silly way of thinking of it. If we make ourselves too safe for those mon, we're not actually targeting them effectively. If we target them effectively, at a design stage, it means that everyone knows our targets and our lure becomes useless. Don't design t lure our targets. Design so that we can deal with our targets effectively should we end up together and if they are too afraid to meet us, we have already effectively targeted them

Defiant doesn't just screw with Landorus. It also screws with Defog users such Skarmory, Tapu Fini and sometimes M-Scizor. You know, our CHECKS. And a check isn't a check if it is worried about a +2 neutral ghost STAB off 133 base attack.

But let's get back to Landorus. In order to lure Landorus, Landorus SHOULD beat CAP normally, in the same vein Chansey and water types SHOULD beat Heatran normally. With Defiant, Landorus will not beat CAP ever.

To use the Heatran metaphor again, this would be like giving Heatran Water Absorb, because it helps it beat water types, amirite?!

Defiant doesn't help make CAP a lure trapper. It makes it an outright counter.

 

[Sereg]

Defiant doesn't just screw with Landorus. It also screws with Defog users such Skarmory, Tapu Fini and sometimes M-Scizor. You know, our CHECKS. And a check isn't a check if it is worried about a +2 neutral ghost STAB off 133 base attack.

But let's get back to Landorus. In order to lure Landorus, Landorus SHOULD beat CAP normally, in the same vein Chansey and water types SHOULD beat Heatran normally. With Defiant, Landorus will not beat CAP ever.

To use the Heatran metaphor again, this would be like giving Heatran Water Absorb, because it helps it beat water types, amirite?!

Defiant doesn't help make CAP a lure trapper. It makes it an outright counter.

And I'm saying we shouldn't be luring at all. I'm saying that designing to lure is an inherently bad idea. I'm saying that if we ant to target Landorus, it should not normally beat us, be well aware of that and be so scared of switching in, it gives us other advantages.

As such, I don't want to be a Landorus lure trapper. I want to be an outright counter.

However, being afraid that it will scare our checks to much is legitimate, unlike the earlier objection. As I said if you find Defiant too powerful (even though some claim it isn't useful enough), then White Smoke/Clear Body works erfectly well as an alternative with a similar idea.

EDIT: And on Heatran, if Heatran was designed for the purpose of beating water types, I would consider that better (if likely too powerful for OU, admittedly).

 

[VannAccessible]

And I'm saying we shouldn't be luring at all. I'm saying that designing to lure is an inherently bad idea.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion. However, that's the concept that we voted on. If we had wanted to just trap and target Landorus, we would've just gone with Shadow Tag and Ice Beam.

Building a trapper with an ability is easy. What we're aiming for here takes a bit more nuance. We're focused on trap moves, and for the concept to work, we need to lure in our targets. These abilities work against this concept.

The solution isn't to just throw up your hands and say the concept isn't good.

 

[reachzero]

Does CAP23 need a secondary ability? What aspect of CAP23 or its threatlist have we not properly addressed yet? Which abilities accomplish this need?

If Comatose had no ability message upon coming out, I would be gung ho for a complementary secondary ability to use for luring purposes (i.e. Defiant). However, Comatose does have a message, and that completely negates any chance of using a secondary ability to spring traps--the opponent will always know if you do not have Comatose. Any ability that just does something powerful will be adding to the overall power of this project, which is simply unnecessary when we already have a strong chassis and something as generically good as Comatose as a primary option. No secondary ability is needed, so I'm supporting No Secondary Ability this time.

Given our current stats, we can most certainly already field a set to beat every Tomohawk set. Defensive Tomohawk can't beat a Sub/Toxic/Protect/Trap move set, for instance, unless it has Taunt. Moreover, the fact that the Tomohawk user would see that CAP 23 does not have Comatose as soon as it comes in would mean that the secondary ability is not a useful tool for specializing against Tomohawk.

 

[Sereg]

Well, you are entitled to your opinion. However, that's the concept that we voted on. If we had wanted to just trap and target Landorus, we would've just gone with Shadow Tag and Ice Beam.

Building a trapper with an ability is easy. What we're aiming for here takes a bit more nuance. We're focused on trap moves, and for the concept to work, we need to lure in our targets. These abilities work against this concept.

The solution isn't to just throw up your hands and say the concept isn't good.

No. That is not what was voted on. What was voted on was creating a pokemon "defined by using trapping moves". I'm saying that designing a pokemon to lure is mutually exclusive with that.

EDIT:^ While an option for a different ability increases the power of the pokemon itself, it does not increase the power of a set (beyond surprise between team preview and entry of the pokemon). Personally, increased versatility and power of the pokemon itself, that does not increase the power of a single set, is important for a viable trapper IMO to prevent meta-trends from rendering it useless.

 

[Mr Holiday]

Does CAP23 need a secondary ability? What aspect of CAP23 or its threatlist have we not properly addressed yet? Which abilities accomplish this need?

Whelp. At the end of the first ability poll, when Comatose was voted in as CAP23's primary ability, I was pretty much convinced we were going to have to give it something else, an offensive ability, or a supportive ability, or something to help it do it's job. But, having had some time to think about it, and seeing what kind of stats we voted for (By the by, congrats, NV), I gotta admit, Comatose is kinda growing on me. The idea of being able to just attack, and not really worry about dying to poison, or getting screwed over by a burn or paralysis, is really nice, and meshes nicely with the idea of luring in and destroying bulky stallers. And, from what's been discussed here and elsewhere, it doesn't really seem like we need anything else to get the job done. It may not be flashy, but absorbing status is exactly the kind of thing CAP23 needs to do what we want it to do. Now, as reachzero and others have said, if it wasn't immediately obvious if CAP23 does or does not have Comatose, there might be a reason to give it a secondary ability to help lure things in, and there might be an appeal to giving a useful hidden ability later on just to mix things up a bit. As it as, however, I'm in favor of No Competitive Ability.

Do any of the abilities mentioned during Primary Ability Discussion have merit as a secondary ability?

I do still kinda like the idea of Tough Claws as an ability. We're facing quite a few meaty Pokemon, and while we may not strictly speaking need the extra power with our stat spread, it would be nice to have a bit of extra oomph. Now, having Tough Claws could (probably would)negatively impact our checks and counters list, and as I said above, I'm not convinced that we need another competitive ability, so I'm not necessarily saying we absolutely should give CAP23 Tough Claws. However, if we were to give it a secondary competitive ability, my preference would be for Tough Claws.

 

[Quanyails]

Does CAP23 need a secondary ability? What aspect of CAP23 or its threatlist have we not properly addressed yet? Which abilities accomplish this need?

CAP 23 doesn't need another ability. Comatose is plenty powerful, and given the stats that we got, its movepool should a fine job satisfying its concept.


Do any of the abilities mentioned during Primary Ability Discussion have merit as a secondary ability?

Shield Dust is mostly outclassed by Comatose, but it gives CAP 23 protection against Tomohawk's Air Slash flinches, as well as giving it an opportunity to use Rest-based sets.

Given that we've chosen our stats around Comatose, I'm not fond of the offensive abilities from Primary Ability Discussion. They're more likely to scare away our targets from ever coming in.

 

[snake]

I'm just going to throw on my two cents here, as a user.

This secondary ability really shouldn't be covering a bunch of new threats that Comatose doesn't already hit. To build off of Luc's Stratagem example, Technician doesn't really expand how many threats Stratagem can hit - really it just hits Landorus-T and Zygarde with Technician Hidden Power Ice. It's potent when you need it. This is what isn't happening though: Stratagem isn't suddenly tackling all priority users because it decided to drop Levitate for Dazzling instead. All Statagem do was improve the amount of KOes it could nail on a couple of mons. So how does this relate to CAP23? I didn't like Volt Absorb in the first thread because of the reasoning I posted in my +1/-1 post, but here I really don't like it because Volt Absorb really doesn't overlap with Comatose at all. Comatose affects a bunch of targets, and Volt Absorb covers a bunch of targets outside of it. I'd rather leave some measure of counterplay for CAP23 out there, and I'm worried about being able to cover even more mons outside of Comatose as is, even if its not exactly a surprise. At least you can't generate 24 free turns from it, but with a strong defensive typing as is, I don't think it's right to dump another immunity onto CAP23.

As for Iron Barbs / Rough Skin, we have a weaker defense stat, so naturally opponents are going to use powerful physical hits to knock around CAP23. Why are we trying to shore up the weakness we have in our stats? Don't forget that most of the physical attacks that opponents would use against CAP23 would be Gyro Ball and Heavy Slam from Ferrothorn and Celesteela or contact based moves like Knock Off, Shadow Sneak, Sucker Punch, Shadow Claw, and Pursuit. I don't see how chipping down U-turners is worth downplaying a good portion of CAP23's match ups.

Defiant still doesn't address anything we need. Sticky Web is irrelevant to the concept. Again, Parting Shot = Kerfluffle, which chucks a Moonblast at us. Intimidate users aside from Landorus-T are not all that relevant in the metagame. The only Defogger we threaten is Zapdos, and Kitsunoh and Latios are supposed to be able to check us. If we're able to switch in on a Defog, we can't give CAP23 any priority at all for fear of damaging them too much. Basically, most of the situations where Defiant is useful are not in CAP23's favor or are tangent to the concept.

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On the flip side, Early Bird does bring the option of a very reliable Rest for a recovery option. If CAP23 gets no other recovery, this is your incentive not to run Comatose.

Actually nty to one turn Rest

Shield Dust is an inferior Comatose I guess. Strong Jaw for Tomohawk / Landorus-T chunking is nice too. Honestly, I see NCA as a very legitimate contender here.

Pressure sounds cool because you can wear down PP from Fire Blast and Hydro Pump really fast and makes defensive Pokemon think about their PP usage a little more.

 

[Mova]

As already stated above, we don't really need another competitive Ability, as Comatose already helps the Pokémon shrug off status as though it never happened. I'm rooting for No Competitive Ability this time around, just because Comatose covers what many of us want to accomplish.