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piuchester said:
I have a question (who comes from someone whose last serious LC match was back in BW):
Surskit is high-ranked as Webs setter because it has decent speed at 65, even with poor 40/32/52 bulk
Spinarak is mildly-ranked because while too slow to be useful (30), has "nice" 40/40/40 bulk

What goes for Sewaddle, who has better speed (42) AND bulk (45/70/60) than Spinarak? While its attacking stat is worse compared to other Webs users (40, versus Surskit's 50 and Spinarak's 60 - Don't get too hard into Sewaddle's 53 Atk, due to bad moveset), it has access to Giga Drain for sustain while sporting better overall bulk.

Tentaive Set:
Sewaddle @ Eviolite
Ability: Overcoat
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 116 Def / 36 SpA / 196 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Giga Drain
- Bug Buzz *EDIT: Just figured out it gets it*
- Air Slash / Hidden Power [?]

23/16/15 bulk, compared to the "bulky" 23/14/12 from Spinarak.
Click to expand...

Spinarak has a few useful tools to add on to Sticky Webs compared to Sewaddle, for example the ability to set up Toxic Spikes as well, resisting various moves from fighting types like U-turn from Mienfoo and Sludge Wave from Croagunk, as well as not being weak to the semi-common Poison Jab or Ice Punch Timburr runs, making it a much more effective fighting type answer. It also isn't weak to the most common Hidden Power coverage of Snivy (Ice), so it provides overall more valuable defensive utility.

Sewaddle has more flat out bulk, but a less useful typing.
 
So I have a little question about a certain ban. To be exact it's the ban of Vulpix. So from what I understood it was banned, because it's access to the ability "Drought" made it possible to build a metacentralizing/broken team composition aka sunteams. In other words Drought is the only reason it got banned. But Vulpix is the only mon that learned Drought to be begin with. Why did you guys ban Vulpix instead of Drought then? Like Vulpix would be probably bad afterwards but there was no reason to ban it as a whole when you could have just banned Drought without any consequences. Can someone explain this matter to me and tag me then?
 
BaSr said:
So I have a little question about a certain ban. To be exact it's the ban of Vulpix. So from what I understood it was banned, because it's access to the ability "Drought" made it possible to build a metacentralizing/broken team composition aka sunteams. In other words Drought is the only reason it got banned. But Vulpix is the only mon that learned Drought to be begin with. Why did you guys ban Vulpix instead of Drought then? Like Vulpix would be probably bad afterwards but there was no reason to ban it as a whole when you could have just banned Drought without any consequences. Can someone explain this matter to me and tag me then?
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From the suspect thread, the very brief reason is that "Vulpix was chosen as the victim of the suspect over Drought because Vulpix is the only Drought user and we do not want to have a complex ban on the Pokemon."

Beyond that, you can also look at this as a difference in intended philosophy between LC and standard tiers, where the goal in LC is to tier Pokemon rather than something else - you can also see shades of this in the Porygon and Cutiefly bans. As far as I'm aware, the only real time that an ability or move would be preferentially tested or banned rather than the Pokemon is if it was inherently uncompetitive and that's not really the case for Drought, which was definitely more on the "broken" side than "uncompetitive". If Drought was on multiple Pokemon and it was a broken ability on all of them perhaps the scenario would have been different, but as it stands rather than banning a piece of a Pokemon to nerf it and bring it down to manageable levels the broken Pokemon was banned.
 
I can now get behind it kinda, thanks! Though I disagree with this philosophy, and the statement that it would have been a complex ban, because it would not have been that. But this is probably not the place to discuss this
 
Why doesn't Tirtouga use Liquidation in favor of Waterfall on Shell Smash sets? The flinching chance may be nice but 5 extra Base Power and the chance to lower an opponent's Defense seems more useful to me.
 
Cheryl. said:
Why doesn't Tirtouga use Liquidation in favor of Waterfall on Shell Smash sets? The flinching chance may be nice but 5 extra Base Power and the chance to lower an opponent's Defense seems more useful to me.
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i think theres 2 reasons, if you run zen headbutt to hit threats such as foongus or mienfoo, liquidation will be incompatible (for the time being rn) with zen headbutt as its a gen 7 egg move with a gen 6 tutor move. the second reason is that lc rolls are pretty low anyways that sometimes the 5 bp doesnt matter much and the defense drop isnt pivotal in many situations since tirtouga will be 2hkoing most threats anyways after a boost, compared to say, immobilizing your opponent for the turn with waterfall and not taking any damage.
 
So in the grand scheme of things Liquidation and Waterfall actually do the same damage:

212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snivy: 6-8 (28.5 - 38%) -- 32.8% chance to 3HKO
212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snivy: 6-8 (28.5 - 38%) -- 32.8% chance to 3HKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snivy: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snivy: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 7-9 (25.9 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 7-9 (25.9 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 13-16 (48.1 - 59.2%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 13-16 (48.1 - 59.2%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 7-9 (28 - 36%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 7-9 (28 - 36%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 12-15 (48 - 60%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 12-15 (48 - 60%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO

212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 36+ Def Eviolite Munchlax: 9-12 (30 - 40%) -- 59.8% chance to 3HKO
212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 36+ Def Eviolite Munchlax: 9-12 (30 - 40%) -- 59.8% chance to 3HKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 36+ Def Eviolite Munchlax: 16-21 (53.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 36+ Def Eviolite Munchlax: 16-21 (53.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. +1 116 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 12-14 (48 - 56%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. +1 116 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 12-14 (48 - 56%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. +1 116 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 20-26 (80 - 104%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. +1 116 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 20-26 (80 - 104%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 92 Def Eviolite Tirtouga: 7-9 (31.8 - 40.9%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 4 HP / 92 Def Eviolite Tirtouga: 7-9 (31.8 - 40.9%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 92 Def Eviolite Tirtouga: 12-15 (54.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 4 HP / 92 Def Eviolite Tirtouga: 12-15 (54.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 132 HP / 132 Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 14-18 (56 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 132 HP / 132 Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 14-18 (56 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 132 HP / 132 Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 26-32 (104 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 132 HP / 132 Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 26-32 (104 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO

A 20% chance to lower defense isn't that helpful in the long run as if Tirtouga doesn't OHKO a threat and still survives, it'll probably 2HKO the next turn. Meanwhile, the same chance to completely neuter the target without taking damage is more useful. Zen Headbutt compatibility is also a major factor. And although it's not that important Waterfall has more PP so in the case of facing something trying to PP stall you it's more useful.

Liquidation does do more damage sometimes but it's not that large of a difference.
 
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Felines said:
So in the grand scheme of things Liquidation and Waterfall actually do the same damage:

212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snivy: 6-8 (28.5 - 38%) -- 32.8% chance to 3HKO
212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snivy: 6-8 (28.5 - 38%) -- 32.8% chance to 3HKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snivy: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snivy: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 7-9 (25.9 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 7-9 (25.9 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 13-16 (48.1 - 59.2%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 13-16 (48.1 - 59.2%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
Click to expand...

Liquidation does more damage as a rule of thumb, I suggest checking more calcs than just two in the future.

+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 15-18 (62.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 16-19 (66.6 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 15-18 (71.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vullaby: 15-18 (60 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vullaby: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Vullaby: 21-25 (84 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Vullaby: 22-27 (88 - 108%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 7-9 (28 - 36%) -- 5.8% chance to 3HKO
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 8-9 (32 - 36%) -- 87.5% chance to 3HKO

+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 7-9 (28 - 36%) -- 5.8% chance to 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 8-9 (32 - 36%) -- 87.5% chance to 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9)

+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Staryu: 7-9 (36.8 - 47.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 212 Atk Tirtouga Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Staryu: 8-9 (42.1 - 47.3%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Zen Headbutt compatibility is pretty much the only factor, but it's an important factor as well which is why most sets will run Waterfall over Liquidation.
 
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two questions
1.) why is this the first post since September lol
2.) somebody name me all viable spams? ik water, bird, fight, dark but are there anymore? also, how many mons do u need on one team for it to be considered spam? i guess around 3, but im not sure.
wait. thats 3 questions. oh well.
 
OliSTDS said:
two questions
1.) why is this the first post since September lol
2.) somebody name me all viable spams? ik water, bird, fight, dark but are there anymore? also, how many mons do u need on one team for it to be considered spam? i guess around 3, but im not sure.
wait. thats 3 questions. oh well.
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1. new people are rare :^( or at least, a lot of them ask questions in the LC discord.
2. you basically named all of the best ones. firespam isn't bad, i've heard of groundspam and poisonspam existing, but they aren't all that great. typespam really just means 2 or more of the same type on one team.
 
OliSTDS said:
two questions
1.) why is this the first post since September lol
2.) somebody name me all viable spams? ik water, bird, fight, dark but are there anymore? also, how many mons do u need on one team for it to be considered spam? i guess around 3, but im not sure.
wait. thats 3 questions. oh well.
Click to expand...

1) people haven't been asking questions
2) the four you listed are the main ones, other typespam have too many issues to really be worth it. firespam's ok
3) generally you want 6 mons on a team but I guess you can do what you want dude (if you have two Pokemon on a team that share a type and break for the other to be a wincon that's often enough to be called typespam, for example doduo+vullaby or timburr+mienfoo can reasonably be called bird/fightspam)

e: ofc it's gummy
 
OliSTDS said:
two questions
1.) why is this the first post since September lol
2.) somebody name me all viable spams? ik water, bird, fight, dark but are there anymore? also, how many mons do u need on one team for it to be considered spam? i guess around 3, but im not sure.
wait. thats 3 questions. oh well.
Click to expand...

Any kind of type spam can work I guess depending on the scenarios, but what you just mentioned are the most consistent ones. I've seen Electric Spam / Fire Spam/ Ice Spam / Poison Spam / Grass Spam / Ground Spam being succesfull so far, but all have only been pulled of by players already familiar with the tier. I would encourage you to try any type you want though if there is a particular mon you like and want something to break for it :)
 
These are my first few days ever playing little cup so I was wondering what's considered the best cores to build around in the tournament scene. Maybe like a top 3 list or something like that.
 
SamTenney10 said:
These are my first few days ever playing little cup so I was wondering what's considered the best cores to build around in the tournament scene. Maybe like a top 3 list or something like that.
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It's subjective but here are the best ones imo:
Vullaby + Diglett
Vullaby + Doduo or Wingull
Timburr + Mienfoo
Abra + Gastly
 
SamTenney10 said:
These are my first few days ever playing little cup so I was wondering what's considered the best cores to build around in the tournament scene. Maybe like a top 3 list or something like that.
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Ferroseed+Spritzee saw great use in Snake iirc, but that's usually not a core you build around. Worth mentioning though, along with Diglett+Shellder.
 
v said:
why isnt type null an lc mon? I didn't play sun/moon so if there's something ingame that explains it I apologize, I'm just genuinely curious since it SEEMS to have an evolution from an outside perspective. maybe it can't breed. but either way, I'm just curious.
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It can’t be bred, and it’s obtained in game at level 40. So it can’t be obtained at level 5, so it’s not legal in Lc.
 
Hi, there existed in 6G a tier for the less played pokémons called "LC UU" (where instead of Mienfoo, Vullaby or Onix we found as top tier Riolu, Hippopotas or Dratini). Unless it already exists on a other server than Showdown, will there be in 7G of the "LC UU"?

If we can further expand the proposals, there may be a day of "LC Uber" (Scyther, Meditite or Gligar), "LC Monotype" or "Doubles LC" (all these formats have more or less existed on other servers)
 
Hi again, I do not know if I'm on the right forum but I try: there is in Little Cup a list of pokémons banished quite consistent (I do not dispute at all their power), but some of them deserve an explanation
* we understand that Vulpix was ban for Drought: why not forbid this ability since it is the only one to have in LC? Is this a sacrifice for the example (I doubt that Vulpix with Flash Fire outclasses Ponyta)?
* ditto for Meditite, who is an eternal banished: why on Earth do not ban instead Pure Power (where he is still the only LC to know)? It isn't nonetheless unusable: it has a unique double-type in addition to an interesting coverage.
* it's more complicated for Porygon. I guess Z-Conversion is the thing that set fire to the powder (but the pokemon is already extremely cumbersome in itself: it would have been suspect-test anyway). It seems to me that it was not envisaged to first prohibit this move, then to check the influence of Porygon LC if it is still broken.
I understand the argument to avoid complex banns but the examples cited are absolutely not. Take the example of the Middle Cup in 6G: Combusken is ban for Speed Boost (but Whirlipede is not broken); Protean (Frogadier) and Contrary (Servine) are forbidden abilities because a single pokemon learns it in this format
 
Ellicrum said:
Hi again, I do not know if I'm on the right forum but I try: there is in Little Cup a list of pokémons banished quite consistent (I do not dispute at all their power), but some of them deserve an explanation
* we understand that Vulpix was ban for Drought: why not forbid this ability since it is the only one to have in LC? Is this a sacrifice for the example (I doubt that Vulpix with Flash Fire outclasses Ponyta)?
* ditto for Meditite, who is an eternal banished: why on Earth do not ban instead Pure Power (where he is still the only LC to know)? It isn't nonetheless unusable: it has a unique double-type in addition to an interesting coverage.
* it's more complicated for Porygon. I guess Z-Conversion is the thing that set fire to the powder (but the pokemon is already extremely cumbersome in itself: it would have been suspect-test anyway). It seems to me that it was not envisaged to first prohibit this move, then to check the influence of Porygon LC if it is still broken.
I understand the argument to avoid complex banns but the examples cited are absolutely not. Take the example of the Middle Cup in 6G: Combusken is ban for Speed Boost (but Whirlipede is not broken); Protean (Frogadier) and Contrary (Servine) are forbidden abilities because a single pokemon learns it in this format
Click to expand...

Ultimately, it comes down to what the banning philosophy is, and the general way that Little Cup bans things is that we do not ban parts of a Pokemon to nerf them down to usable levels unless the factor itself is inherently broken/uncompetitive, and that it is preferable to ban a Pokemon.

Vulpix is the only case of those three where you could make an argument that Drought itself was the broken factor, but ultimately the decision was that Vulpix itself was the broken element since for all intents and purposes Vulpix was Sun.

For Meditite, Pure Power is a renamed Huge Power. The ability Huge Power is not inherently broken - this is clear to see by Bunnelby and Azurill's lack of brokenness. Banning Pure Power would simply be a nerf to Meditite in order to keep it despite Pure Power only being broken due to Meditite's unique traits including its typing, stats, and movepool.

Same deal for Porygon - Z-Conversion is simply a part of the Pokemon. If Porygon didn't have Download, the high stats, and fantastic movepool it does then there's every chance that Z-Conversion sets wouldn't have been broken. You're absolutely mistaken that there wasn't debate as to what to ban in the case of Porygon, there are pages of discussion about exactly what you propose, however adding to a Z-Conversion ban would be how to implement it. Should we ban the unbroken base move Conversion? Ban potentially unbroken sets by creating a complex ban of Porygon holding Normalium Z and the move Conversion? Create an in battle mod where the move Z-Conversion could not be selected? Ultimately the clearest decision and the one made by the council was simply to ban Porygon.

It doesn't really matter what other formats do for their banning, especially when said format isn't an official metagame, so what Middle Cup did has no bearing on what Little Cup tiering should be.

Thanks for the question!
 
Merritt said:
Vulpix is the only case of those three where you could make an argument that Drought itself was the broken factor, but ultimately the decision was that Vulpix itself was the broken element since for all intents and purposes Vulpix was Sun.
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Actually it is pretty easy to seperate Vulpix from Drought due to the fact that Vulpix also gets Flash Fire. So if Drought is the broken element then there is no need to ban Vulpix.
 
12-XVI said:
Actually it is pretty easy to seperate Vulpix from Drought due to the fact that Vulpix also gets Flash Fire. So if Drought is the broken element then there is no need to ban Vulpix.
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I apologize, I phrased that poorly.

The decision was made because part of LC's banning philosophy could be summed up as "we preferably tier Pokemon wherever possible", and so the decision has been made to make a cleaner banlist of Pokemon whenever possible. Banning Drought goes against that, and also falls afoul of an attempt to "nerf" Vulpix in order to keep it acceptable, which is undesirable.

Ultimately the decision was made to suspect Vulpix instead of Drought, and the suspect test voted to ban Vulpix.
 
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