Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake

[L Y F]

Lurked for a while, and it's just abundantly clear that Naganadel is nothing short of absolutely bonkers.

It's impossible for this thread to be a 'metagame discussion' when the entire metagame is centred around one mon. Talks of Heatran, TTar, Weavile, Mamo, Lop, MCham, etc are only a result of an overbearing, overcentralising force. It's a meta where everything that happens is in relation to Naganadel, and that's just super unhealthy.

Z-Draco just obliterates/softens stuff, especially with a Nasty Plot boost (which is SUPER EASY to get because you're terrified of giving it a speed boost and switch), there's no real defensive measures. I've seen a load of HP Ground > Fire Blast (paired with Mag/Blace/Zard/etc), and the Naganadel-player's team doesn't really lose much from it - the panic button has been pressed and so many holes have already been punched in the opposing team.

So yeah, just the thoughts of a long-time lurker/selective poster.

 

[Kshuaib734]

Kabutops getting liquidation needs more attention, the move solidifies its role as a frightning wallbreaker and makes it more difficult to switch into.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

Kabutops getting liquidation needs more attention, the move solidifies its role as a frightning wallbreaker and makes it more difficult to switch into.

What does it do that Mega-Swampert doesn’t?

 

[Marzbar]

Not going to dwell on the Naganadel argument too much. I'll just say that a quickban seems like an overreaction. I get that it has the tools (Nasty Plot, Beast Boost) to be an insane threat, but in all honesty there's a lot of Pokemon that hit harder than it, so I don't think its stats are absurd or anything, and it doesn't have priority. Plus many Pokemon can outspeed it, and it has weaknesses to very commonly used offensive types. A little longer in the meta would be fair before making a decision. It's not Marshadow where nothing resisted its STAB attacks and could switch into it.

Which brings me to what I actually want to talk about: Empoleon. I've read a few times in this thread that Empoleon is basically a garbage Pokemon in OU and shouldn't be considered. I don't think that's a fair assessment at all. People are clearly using it and this is why:

Using these sets:

Naganadel Timid 80HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe @Dragonium Z

And

Empoleon Careful 252 HP / 252 ATK / 4 SpD @ Assault Vest

A +2 (Nasty Plot) Devastating Drake does a maximum of 59% to Empoleon. That's as hard as it's going to hit. It cannot be 2HKO'd without a critical hit, even after Rocks. It can freely switch it on any of Nag's attacks including a possible HP Ground which fails to 2HKO. Then it can fire back with Earthquake that does 69.7-82.7%, followed by an Aqua Jet next turn which is a 2HKO after Rocks. And this is assuming 80HP investment in Nag. It's even better if they are running 252 Speed instead.

Now I know what the argument will be; Empoleon has one niche use and it's crap outside checking Naganadel. But again that's not true. It walls Blacephalon as well for starters, and everyone has said that Heatran, AV Tyranitar, Weavile and Scarf Greninja are all being commonly used on every team as an answer to Naganadel, and guess what, Empoleon can potentially beat all of them as well. I've found it to be a very useful mon right now.


tl;dr Empoleon shouldn't be labelled as trash simply because it's not in the top OU usage stats. It's actually pretty good. Amazing typing and good bulk allows it to check certain Pokemon such as Nag.

EDIT: also I think physical attacks work out better than going specially offensive with Ice Beam. Doesn't get you much more damage on Nag. You need stronger priority AJ, and Earthquake hits more things.

 

[Kshuaib734]

What does it do that Mega-Swampert doesn’t?

Hyper offense. I've used M-Swampert in 100+ games and Kabutops for 500+ and kabutops is so much better at nuking threats.

Mega Swampert is good at everything but great at nothing. As a defensive stealth rocker it is severely outclassed by pokemon such as ferrothorn and Mega-Garchomp (no troll). Offensively, Kabutops has the better boosting option (swords dance>>> power-up punch), higher offensive stats (taking item into account, and with the addition of liquidation). Mega-Swampert's speed tier is also slightly lacking, making it a sub-optimal sweeper in rain (even though it can tank hits pretty well I guess).

Finally: VARIABILITY/SURPRISE FACTOR. Swampert is a mega evolution, it only has one item and its movepool is static. You know exactly whats coming when you see it. Kabutops on the other hand can run a multitude of sets (in my 500 games with it I have had success with z-rock, z-water, choice band, and life orb), and has more options in its movepool. Aqua Jet is fantastic for nabbing those extra kills when rain runs out, Rapid Spin is obviously great, and Knock Off cripples switch ins.

Mega-Swampert is by no means a bad pokemon, and I can see why its the dominant rain staple but honestly, its a Jack of all trades and master of none.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

The Naganadel arguments are running in circles yet again; I feel like I'm on a Suspect Test thread, not a Metagame Discussion Thread.

In this case, at least from what I've seen, the Pro-Ban arguments seem to be holding more water while the Anti-Ban ones are grasping at, as I predicted before, semantics arguments. Honestly hope this thread gets locked if nonsensical Naganadel conversations continues.

Instead of talking about how one has to treat Naganadel like DPPt Garchomp (Garchomp, two sweepers that go well with Garchomp, two checks to Garchomp, likely a Hazard Setter or Rapid Spinner to support Garchomp), I'm going to focus on something that has caught my eye:

Blacephalon.

I remember reading about this Pokemon on Serebii to confirm what this thing can do; it gets a stellar Special Attack, Good Attack, and usable Speed, yet its bulk is to be desired (as would be the average sweeper). It's an Ultra Beast, so it gets Beast Boost to snowball its Special Attack. The real problem? Poor Explodey Pennywise here has a movepool about as shallow than Klinklang; two repeatedly usable moves in Fire Blast and Shadow Ball, only Psychic and Knock Off as coverage, and then Mind Blown as the STAB nuke not unlike Head Smash (can we just be happy that this is an Ultra Beast, preventing it from receiving Magic Guard?). Finally, it does get Trick, meaning it can cripple common switch-ins with a neat little pair of Choice Specs while it takes away Tyranitar's Choice Band, Chansey's Eviolite, etc.

Everything else this Clown From Beyond The Grave receives is not worth the moveslot; Will-O-Wisp is done better by bulky Pokemon and Gengar (which is actually bulkier(!) and faster), Calm Mind would be done better by Pokemon like Delphox due to higher bulk, better coverage, and utilizing a Salac Berry much better (Reuniclus, Manaphy, Latios and Latias, Mew, etc. otherwise), and as for every Dark-Type move? This is a Ghost-Type, so its coverage would be compromised. Not to mention, thanks to its IVs as an Ultra Beast, it cannot learn Hidden Power Fighting. Shame, really.

So what sets could Blacephalon actually run? Well, the first two to come to mind are Choice Specs and Choice Scarf. Specs allows the internet meme (its signature move, I must reiterate, is called MIND BLOWN) to punch giant holes in the opponent's team to its already high Special Attack and access to a couple powerful moves. The true downside is that Tyranitar and Specially Defensive Heatran can come in on any move short of Trick and immediately threaten it with their own sets. Not to mention, Chansey is THE Special Sponge. It's also easy to Revenge Kill, since multiple Choice Scarf Pokemon carry either a Super-Effective move or a powerful STAB to threaten it out. Plus, multiple Pokemon naturally outspeed it like Tapu Koko, Greninja, Alakazam, and...Gengar. Starting to sound like the original Ghost might be slightly better.

Choice Scarf turns the decently paced juggler into a swift Revenge Killer, allowing it to outspeed opposing Choice Scarf Pokemon like Landorus-T and Garchomp while still threatening anything on the field with its naturally high Special Attack. The problems for this set are similar, but different; Blacephalon holding Scarf is now weaker to walls than Revenge Killers (though faster Choice Scarf Pokemon...i.e. Greninja and potentially Gengar, as well as Shadow Sneak and Aqua Jet, still scare it) since it now doesn't have the additional power to create holes, rather than just picking opponent's off. The niche that makes Choice Scarf Zombie Clown here scary, though, is Beast Boost; thanks to Blacephalon's Stat Spread, Special Attack is sure to be increased when it gets a kill, meaning your power can easily snowball to incredible levels just from picking off one foe. The catch is doing just that, since its most common switch-ins are currently all over the place (a trend that will likely fall slightly once Naganadel is removed).

There is one set I have yet to see, however. It's surprising, but I actually see a Z-Sunny Day set working.

Hear me out.

The main draw to this set is the ability to set up a Sunny Day AND a Speed Boost all in one turn; you get one shot at it, though. First, your team need to weaken or remove Tyranitar or entirely remove Heatran and Chansey. Why WEAKEN Tyranitar?

252 SpA Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sun: 150-177 (43.9 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

As you can see, a foolish Tyranitar staying in while it's weakened will not survive even this resisted hit.

This also allows for much more snowballing and move freedom since you'll no longer be stuck on a single move. Problem here is that it's still weak to Water Priority and Shadow Sneak and MUST have its counters removed before it can even consider switching in, since just one of them showing up will kill the sweep, no question.

I'm going to try more of Stakataka (looks promising), so let's see how that does.

Also if somebody could please make a picture of Gumshoos and Stakataka together like Donald Trump and his wall, that will make me a happy man.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

Hyper offense. I've used M-Swampert in 100+ games and Kabutops for 500+ and kabutops is so much better at nuking threats.

Mega Swampert is good at everything but good at nothing. As a defensive stealth rocker it is severely outclassed by pokemon such as ferrothorn and Mega-Garchomp (no troll). Offensively, Kabutops has the better boosting option (swords dance>>> power-up punch), higher offensive stats (taking item into account, and with the addition of liquidation). Mega-Swampert's speed tier is also slightly lacking, making it a sub-optimal sweeper in rain (even though it can tank hits pretty well I guess).

Finally: VARIABILITY/SURPRISE FACTOR. Swampert is a mega evolution, it only has one item and its movepool is static. You know exactly whats coming when you see it. Kabutops on the other hand can run a multitude of sets (in my 500 games with it I have had success with z-rock, z-water, choice band, and life orb), and has more options in its movepool. Aqua Jet is fantastic for nabbing those extra kills when rain runs out, Rapid Spin is obviously great, and Knock Off cripples switch ins.

Mega-Swampert is by no means a bad pokemon, and I can see why its the dominant rain staple but honestly, its a Jack of all trades and master of none.

Swampert isn’t supposed to be a defensive rocker. It is used as an offensive rocker, one that sets up rocks with forced switches, which swampert doesn’t have a hard time doing. The main reason most people run stealth rock on swampert is for role compression, so Ferrothorn can run spikes. Rain loves having spikes because most rain checks, (Ferrothorn, Tangrowth, etc), are grounded, making them easier to pressure. Swampert is also very consistent in sweeping because of how annoying it is to revenge kill and it’s sheer power means not too many Pokémon are safe from the 2HKO.
Rapid Spin is pretty useless on Kabutops as with its horrible bulk, it won’t get too many opportunities to use it without dieing. I’m not too sure about Knock off, and aqua jet sounds good, but the electric immunity, higher bulk, SR, and better coverage just seem too good to turn down for what it’s worth.

 

[FCKNfuego]

As far as Naga goes I still don't think a quick ban is the way to go. The meta is continuing to adapt to it and I think a lot of the current “hate” it’s getting is due to how it has drastically changed the old “comfortable” SM meta.

People tend to not be very receptive towards big changes like these. Especially ones that cause previous “niche” mons/sets to become more relevant, as this is then immediately translated into being a “trash meta” as these mons/sets were previously considered to be “bad”, whilst they were actually only bad or niche in the context of the previous meta.

It feels like this way of thinking basically forces us as players to constantly try to force the state of the meta back to the “previous version” when it comes to balancing, somewhat disregarding just how much new possibilities are out there considering all of the crazy changes we’re given.

Again, I still think it’s a little early to make the decision to QB Naga in relation to what’s mentioned above as I feel like it does need a bit more time to really denote whether it’s completely borked or not. I know it may sound like I’m pretty anti-ban but I feel like I reside mostly in that middle ground of indecision more than one way or the other. Would just like to see more data on it before making a decision.

For what it’s worth, at least from my opinion I have found this meta to be a lot more innovative, enjoyable and simply a lot more bearable than the M-Metagross meta which we endured for quite a bit before it was decided Gross needed the boot. And even then it took more than 2 weeks to reach that decision.

Blacephalon Stuff

Another set I’ve been messing around with that I’d like drop some attention on is the Sub/Pain Split set which is the only set I’ve found that can be somewhat of an issue for it’s current counters/checks, even T-Tar.

Blacephalon @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower
- Substitute
- Pain Split

Basically it plays out similarly to Substitute+Endeavor Diancie. Blacephalon subs on the switch (protects it from Tar/Weavile pursuit as well if you feel the need to switch) allowing it to pain split it’s counters/checks to drop their hp and either switch out afterwards or proceed to repeat subbing + pain splitting to reduce their hp even further until that mon is basically useless.

Has worked well so far for me when used in tandem with mons that want similar checks/counters gone, such as Nagadanel and Volcarona which both enjoy Tar and Tran being whittled so low. It doesn’t beat Chansey, but it can’t hit you through sub and basically every time it switches in you just go back up to full health, cripple it and switch out with momentum on your terms.

Ghostium was the best item for me so far. Allows it to bluff a choice item if necessary and the power from Ghostium is bonkers.

Pretty neat set overall.

 

[Eboera]

No more talk about the toxic dragon, other than my 2 cents being a rain team mantine checks it pretty hard, especially if you invest into SpeDef, depending on the invest z draco wont do even half.

ANYWAY just to keep the discussion going and what not. Im curious what other surprises people have been finding, not nessicarly new top tier OU, but things people think are fun and new.

Ive been experimenting with a lot of Incineroar since it got knock off and drain punch, and knock off Passimion.
And even though it brings back terrible memories of Gen 4 and 5, support Gliscor with knock off, rocks/defog has fit comfortably in most of my teams.

 

[Morkal]

Okay seriously, the Naganadel discussion is driving everyone up the wall. We get it, you all think he's bonkers, wait for a suspect test instead of just spitting out the same points over and over again. Can we redirect please? Let's talk about the massive amount of new defoggers, I feel a lot of new Pokemon are going to be given life with this move tutor, especially one of my favorites, Gliscor.

It can now effectively dominate Hazard control while being able to avoid being statused, set up its own rocks with much more vitality, and can threaten Naga, Heatran, Tyranitar (not running Ice Punch), and a good number of other OU top tier threats running around. It's also a nice alternative to Lando-T for a Ground / Flying type.

 

[jdcomix]

Okay seriously, the Naganadel discussion is driving everyone up the wall. We get it, you all think he's bonkers, wait for a suspect test instead of just spitting out the same points over and over again. Can we redirect please? Let's talk about the massive amount of new defoggers, I feel a lot of new Pokemon are going to be given life with this move tutor, especially one of my favorites, Gliscor.

It can now effectively dominate Hazard control while being able to avoid being statused, set up its own rocks with much more vitality, and can threaten Naga, Heatran, Tyranitar (not running Ice Punch), and a good number of other OU top tier threats running around. It's also a nice alternative to Lando-T for a Ground / Flying type.

Yeah, sorry, I should have checked to make sure that no one posted the same points that I made. Anyway, yeah, Defog is definitely nice. Centralizes the metagame around stealth rock a lot less because the SR setters now have to worry about being defogged. It also helps to add new strategies to previously underutilised Pokemon, such as the aforementioned Gliscor and others like Klefki, Tapu Fini, and Serperior.

 

[earl]

Yeah, sorry, I should have checked to make sure that no one posted the same points that I made. Anyway, yeah, Defog is definitely nice. Centralizes the metagame around stealth rock a lot less because the SR setters now have to worry about being defogged. It also helps to add new strategies to previously underutilised Pokemon, such as the aforementioned Gliscor and others like Klefki, Tapu Fini, and Serperior.

Tapu Fini already had Defog and if anything is being hurt by the influx in new defoggers. To keep this from being a one-liner I’m liking Defog Kelfki, it’s bulk + typing isn’t too shabby and the fact that it literally cannot defog on Bisharp is very nice against webs (which is everywhere rn)

Ban Naga btw

 

[Eboera]

Okay seriously, the Naganadel discussion is driving everyone up the wall. We get it, you all think he's bonkers, wait for a suspect test instead of just spitting out the same points over and over again. Can we redirect please? Let's talk about the massive amount of new defoggers, I feel a lot of new Pokemon are going to be given life with this move tutor, especially one of my favorites, Gliscor.

It can now effectively dominate Hazard control while being able to avoid being statused, set up its own rocks with much more vitality, and can threaten Naga, Heatran, Tyranitar (not running Ice Punch), and a good number of other OU top tier threats running around. It's also a nice alternative to Lando-T for a Ground / Flying type.

It gives me ptsd flashbacks to platinum when poison heal Gliscor firat came out. I do think there is a case to be made for Gliscor to be OU, also i love it on Serpireor
- leafstorm
- Defog
- Glare
- Hp ice
It is a mon that ive found makes my opponent have to start dealing with it right then and there, or it becomes a headache.

 

[jdcomix]

Tapu Fini already had Defog and if anything is being hurt by the influx in new defoggers

Digging myself into a deeper hole here, but yeah, I agree with you that the new defog setters hurt Tapu Fini's role because now it's just outclassed. I really hope they give it new tools in the next generation to help make it more unique.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

I am not sure if those two are very common knowledge for most players, but it might help some people:

- Zapdos gets Static+Defog. In my opinion, being an U-turn resistent and also U-turn punishing Defogger is simply great. Honestly, is there any reason to run Pressure>Static? I can't think of a single u-turnMon in OU which can be paralyzed(no Koko) which doesn't get crippled by it.

Heck, I even tried RockyHelmet Zapdos with Static, and to be quite honest, it surprised me

- Please, everybody, try out TauntSdef Gliscor with enough speed to outspeed bulky Lando/Bisharp etc. I love it so much because honestly, what can Pokemon like Toxapex, Chansey etc. even do to you? Defog is also nie role compression with the downside of sadly making TauntGliscor a Mono-Attacker.


One last thing about Naganadel: I enjoy that it creates a Tyranitar->Keldeo->Naganadel triangle, a bit like Latios. Except that Naganadel doesn't die to Fairy moves.


Edit: oh man one thing about Defog Serperior: Super annoying about it is that it always forces switches into something(due it itself threatening nearly any water type Pokemon), therefore getting Defog off most of the time. It further can "support" your team with Glare/Seed(meh). Honestly, most Serperior only use Leaf Storm/mono coverage anyways. Defog also has a small Bonus of making your Leaf Storm 100% against the current target.
The only downside of it is Greninja/Naga being faster, but only latter can switch in - except straight into Glare

 

[Morkal]

Magearna with Z-Heal Bell honestly might push it over the edge, it was already annoying but now it heals the whole team.
Also Tapu Fini isn't all bad now, it gained access to Knock Off in US / UM, which isn't anything crazy special but it does add a bit of variety to its utility sets, not many relevant Fairies get Knock Off.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Running Z-heal bell is really cool but really the metal bunny really loves coverage or set up and it's not like vest or ipappa berry was terrible without giving up a turn.

But does help the volt turn core with lando on the psyical side

 

[Eboera]

I like Heal bell on the more defensive Eevees,
Vaporeon, Slyveon, Umbreon i think use it well and can find there way onto teams. Especially Vaporeon can do a Scald, Heal Bell and go more cleric eith wish, or throw on an ice beam or icy wind.

Also Diancie getting Heal Bell is someyhing i want to play around with, see if people expect it in frankly just normal Diancie. Rocky helmet or leftovers, rocks and heal bell might be something fun, maybe also as a trick room set up. I shall report back!

 

[Jukain]

i dont think naganadel is broken, or at least broken enough to warrant a quick ban at all. naganadel is a potent, dangerous top tier threat and is perhaps the single best set up sweeper in the metagame currently, but it also has several flaws and methods to play around it that i wouldnt quite call it undeniably broken.

theres nothing to talk about besides the the nasty plot z-draco sludge wave fire blast set, as all its other sets dont push it over the edge. now, for this dreaded np set, setting up can prove to be a bit more difficult than expected. its true, naganadel's bulk for an offensive mon isnt actually bad at all, 73/73/73 bulk is pretty decent compared to other fast, hard hitting speedsters. however, its defensive typing is definitely an issue because it leaves it vulnerable to some of the most common attacking types in the tier. setting up safely can be a relatively difficult task when you consider just how many mons in OU pack coverage options that hit you super effectively. even a mon thats weak to nagandel's STABs, such as AV tangrowth for example, can stay in while you NP and hit you with a hard hitting EQ that does a shitton of damage that you're now in such low health and easily picked apart by a mscizor bullet punch or fake out lopunny or something. this is a relatively common scenario that you cant risk setting up since av tangrowth comfortably lives an unboosted sludge wave and has regenerator. even though naganadel has somewhat *decent* bulk for an offensive mon this completely ignores its vulnerability to common attacking types which offsets these defensive stats, its similar to kyurem-b in a way where kube is, statwise, one of the bulkiest mons in the metagame but its poor defensive typing leaves much to be desired.

I definitely hear the argument that Naganadel has a difficult time setting up pretty often, and I'm still not exactly sure why. Naganadel is a Pokemon that forces a lot of switches, with the risk of staying in to prevent setup being high. For example, if Tapu Koko stays in against Naganadel that tries to set up a Nasty Plot, it can 2HKO with Thunderbolt. However, if the Naganadel opts for Sludge Wave, Tapu Koko dies and Naganadel gets a Speed boost. In a good number of these 1v1 scenarios where you can technically stop Naganadel from setting up Nasty Plot and rolling through your team, you're running basically the same risk, which means that your 'counterplay' might just end up chipping Naganadel a bit, simply delaying the inevitable, or even outright leading to your team being swept as a result of a Speed boost.

Furthermore, aside from simply forcing switches, Naganadel has plenty of setup opportunities against many defensive threats, including Toxapex, Clefable, Ferrothorn, Chansey, non-Psychic Mew, Rotom-W, Mega Sableye, Zapdos, Tangrowth, MVenu, and Mantine, as it is immune to Toxic and has passable bulk alongside a few useful resistances. A couple of these cannot quite be used for setup if the opponent still has a priority user left, but most of them can be used anyways. Aside from these, Naganadel can actually set up against certain offensive threats, most notably Keldeo, Tapu Bulu, and Magnezone. Between all of the Pokemon it can legitimately set up on and the switches it forces, Naganadel doesn't have too much difficulty finding an opportunity to set up.

unboosted, naganadel is slightly weaker than latios with a much more predictable movepool. theres also the issue of being over reliant on z-draco to get a kill to start getting speed boosts. once your z-draco is used up but you fail to ohko the opposing mon, you lose your one time use nuke and now sweeping is going to be significantly more difficult since you probably dont have the boosted speed anymore. nagandel at +2 is indeed powerful, however various forms of defensive counterplay do exist that its not substantially difficult to stop it, especially when you consider the amount of offensive pressure you can put on it to prevent it from setting up in the first place. av ttar and spdef heatran with earth power are two of the most common ive seen mentioned on this thread, and both are rather common so its not like you're packing super niche mons to check it either. theres also mons like t-wave chansey, av magearna with spatk investment to ohko with fleur cannon, and the slow rock steel mon with gyro ball. that list may not seem like much, but its already longer than the counters list to several mons in OU (like honestly how many mons in OU can you find that switch into CB ttar or z-freeze shock kyube???)

I think the main difference between Naganadel and something like CB Tyranitar or Z-Freeze Shock Kyurem-B is that it's so much more difficult to counterplay Naganadel from a revenge killing standpoint. Those Pokemon are very threatening to balance and stall because they are difficult to counterplay defensively. Against offense, most of their utility comes from having enough bulk to switch into something or take a hit and basically guarantee at least one kill per match. However, even if you're forced to sacrifice something, it's relatively trivial to bring something in that can revenge kill these Pokemon as offense runs multiple means of Speed control. With base 121 Speed and potential Speed boosts, offense simply does not have that liberty against Naganadel, restricting means of revenge killing it to specific types of priority (Nagandel's decent bulk and lack of weakness to most priority means that it needs to be chipped significantly for priority to work) and, basically, Scarf Greninja. This makes the lack of defensive counterplay for offense much more concerning. For teams that aren't offense and can fit the likes of spdef Heatran and AV Tar, you have to recognize that these are Pokemon without recovery, especially AV Tar who doesn't even have Leftovers. They lack any type of hazard resistance or immunity, and are often forced to handle other Pokemon throughout a match as well. This means that well-crafted hazard and/or offensive support can weaken these Pokemon over the course of a match, allowing Naganadel to sweep in spite of its supposed hard counters. Between the limited number of true defensive answers to Naganadel, lack of offensive counterplay, and ability to wear down its only splashable answers, stopping Naganadel is a lot more restrictive and difficult overall than you're saying. I won't deny that it can be possible to stop Naganadel if you run one of the few things that can deal with it and apply appropriate pressure throughout a match - it's not unbeatable by any means - but Naganadel and its team also have options to play around all of that.

also can we please stop pretending like naganadel is some super restricting pokemon because it *forces* you to run shit like assault vest, or specially defensive leftovers, on two of the most common mons in the tier?? you guys act like you've never run a set just for one mon in OU but you guys literally do this all the time, probably without realizing it, but then when it comes to adapting to naganadel you guys say that one pokemon shouldnt restrict the metagame by that much. how about having hp ice on defensive lando-t, just so you can hit other lando-ts? is that not restricting as well? what about shed shell toxapex, which we thought would die down completely after arena trap banned, but nope, you guys still use it, and for what? one mon named heatran cuz it utilizes magma storm? thats pretty restrictive as well. shed shell skarm instead of leftovers/rh is an example too, and so is iron head on av magearna just to hit other CM magearnas/CM clef. spdef leftovers tran has been one of the most standard sets on heatran for god knows how long now, and av ttar isnt even a "bad" set at all. you check mega zam/zard-y much better, you also hard check tapu lele since now moonblast isnt even a 2HKO, and with eq you can even tank hard hits from magearna/specs koko and win.

It's not actually a huge issue that you have to run these 'suboptimal' sets - the issue is that those sets are all there really is. Substituting out a move or changing around a set to cover additional or different threats can be seen as a metagame evolution, but not all metagame evolutions are healthy. To give a very clear example, XY Aegi evolved the metagame, throwing certain Pokemon and sets into obscurity while increasing the popularity of others as a result of its existence. However, it was seen that these metagame evolutions were overly restrictive and unhealthy for the tier. The fact of the matter is, if you're not running one of a specific couple mons, your team is probably blatantly weak to Naganadel, and even if you do, you can still lose as outlined earlier in this post. It's to a point where the restrictions are unhealthy and barely even sufficient, which makes me confident that Naganadel is an unhealthy presence in the tier.

 

[LordHelix]

Can we please stop talking about naganadel? I swear more than 75% of the posts in these 7 pages are reiterating the same points at least if u wanna say something stop repeating whats already been repeated a million times (znasty plot set is briken, hard to revenge cux of beast boost, forces u to run heatran and av ttar, unhealthy presence, "insert complaint here")

Like please stop its a usum metagame discussion thread, not naga discussion thread

That said i wanted to discuss my experience with the new meta

The new webbers:
Slurpuff is bad, next (for real tho it does almost always gets webs up with unburden, but thats literally the only thing it can do it can do nothing else, no magic coat no offensive pressure no anything so dont use it)

Im really liking ribombee its just as good as i thought. its speed is really really good, i cant tell u how many times mons like torn t or lando defog away the webs but i re-set them up again due to its speed outspeeding like 80% of the tier

details

The set moonblast, energy ball, hpice and sticky webs is working pretty well for me so far. Webs is explanatory, moonblast 2hkos lead nagas and threatens gren, lopunny and latios energy ball is good for hitting fini, diancie and rotom wash, hpice 2hkos both gliscor and lando

Araquanid is mediocre tbh, i dont get what the hype is about. Its slow, meaning u have one chance to set the rocks up, it hits hard yea but how does it help when rotom or torn just ko u and just defog immedietly right after ur sash breaks? Scizor just sets up on it, keldeo and rotom just easily switch on it and set up/defog or whatever, id love for someone to tell me how to use it as ive been getting meh results with it

The new defoggers:
Speaking of defog, what do u guys run on defog rotom wash? I find 4mss holds it back, cuz idk what to use on it yet

Also klefki is dogshit pls dont use it, ive used it in like over 100 games its done like nothing much, loses to most rockers, ts hits weaker than a paper bag, it had no defenses (pre-ash gren 2hkos even max spdef klefki) all it does is occasionally thunderwave some sweepers like mag or naga

Oh and also, if bisharp and gren get in on a defog on keys it gets blocked and they just 1hko/2hko it back, prankster nerf really hurt it

Spdef gliscor is like definitely 100% the best defogger for balance, its so good (has 4mss tho), tornadus and tapu koko are also very good offensive defoggers, zapdos is also a personal fav thanks to getting static + defog, punishes so many uturners and phys attackers like scizor and lando

The new mons:
Dont want this to get too long so just gonna make this short
Blace is underwhelming af (garbage mon), stakataka is really good just like i told yall (great but not amazing), naga is broken (too good)

I dont know how to end posts so, yea

 

[Divine Retribution]

I am not sure if those two are very common knowledge for most players, but it might help some people:

- Zapdos gets Static+Defog. In my opinion, being an U-turn resistent and also U-turn punishing Defogger is simply great. Honestly, is there any reason to run Pressure>Static? I can't think of a single u-turnMon in OU which can be paralyzed(no Koko) which doesn't get crippled by it.

Heck, I even tried RockyHelmet Zapdos with Static, and to be quite honest, it surprised me

- Please, everybody, try out TauntSdef Gliscor with enough speed to outspeed bulky Lando/Bisharp etc. I love it so much because honestly, what can Pokemon like Toxapex, Chansey etc. even do to you? Defog is also nie role compression with the downside of sadly making TauntGliscor a Mono-Attacker.


One last thing about Naganadel: I enjoy that it creates a Tyranitar->Keldeo->Naganadel triangle, a bit like Latios. Except that Naganadel doesn't die to Fairy moves.

Edit: oh man one thing about Defog Serperior: Super annoying about it is that it always forces switches into something(due it itself threatening nearly any water type Pokemon), therefore getting Defog off most of the time. It further can "support" your team with Glare/Seed(meh). Honestly, most Serperior only use Leaf Storm/mono coverage anyways. Defog also has a small Bonus of making your Leaf Storm 100% against the current target.
The only downside of it is Greninja/Naga being faster, but only latter can switch in - except straight into Glare

Pressure is by far the better ability for stall/fat teams as it's excellent for burning PP on threatening 'mons like Lando and Tyranitar and discouraging them from clicking certain low PP moves every time they come in. It also gives you a huge advantage in the stall vs stall mirror match.

That being said, stall is pretty much dead and I don't believe the few stalls that are left kicking around run Zapdos anymore, and Static is by far the better ability for less passive builds because it capitalizes on all the physical attackers Zap checks by potentially crippling them just for clicking a contact move.

 

[Finchinator]

- Zapdos gets Static+Defog. In my opinion, being an U-turn resistent and also U-turn punishing Defogger is simply great. Honestly, is there any reason to run Pressure>Static? I can't think of a single u-turnMon in OU which can be paralyzed(no Koko) which doesn't get crippled by it.

Just want to point out that Pressure was huge on Zapdos throughout SM in order to help it manage hazards and PP in general when facing stall or when utilized on stall teams. When the metagame develops and a clear stall archetype or two become common, I'd like to think that Pressure would still be the go to on at least some Zapdos. I do agree that Static itself has a niche and it can be very helpful, but I do not think it is by any means the only ability on Zapdos you will see.

I like Heal bell on the more defensive Eevees,
Vaporeon, Slyveon, Umbreon i think use it well and can find there way onto teams. Especially Vaporeon can do a Scald, Heal Bell and go more cleric eith wish, or throw on an ice beam or icy wind.

Also Diancie getting Heal Bell is someyhing i want to play around with, see if people expect it in frankly just normal Diancie. Rocky helmet or leftovers, rocks and heal bell might be something fun, maybe also as a trick room set up. I shall report back!

For future reference, try to keep discussion in this thread to Pokemon ranked in the VR as none of these eeveelutions have any relevance in the OU metagame and I do not think this will change that.

^ should be a rule of thumb for everyone, by the way -- do not post about Pokemon that are not ranked to avoid derailing discussion or talking about something that simply is not relevant in the metagame

 

[BeardyBennett]

The new defoggers:
Speaking of defog, what do u guys run on defog rotom wash? I find 4mss holds it back, cuz idk what to use on it yet

Personally I have been running Hydro, Volt, and Will-O with Iappa. That being said Pain Split is totally viable over Will-O but I like being able to spread burns whenever I can. Volt gives you momentum, Hydro hits nicely.

I think it pairs well with Koko. Koko gives a boost to Volt, Rotom has Levitate and Water STAB to beat the myriad of Ground types. It also forms a nice Volt-Turn core for momentum. I really like Rotom right now, it's possibly my favorite remover at the moment.

 

[Kamen Galaxy]

To be quite honest, Marzbar is right in thinking that Empoleon can be used like that to defeat Naganadel. The OU room, on play.pokemonshowdown.com, begs to differ. They think that not only should you use SpA Empoleon, but that only Scarf Greninja, SpD Heatran not having SpA investment, and AV Ttar are the only ways to beat Naga.

I sort of perfected (to a degree) a physical Empoleon set:
Empoleon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Aqua Jet
- Earthquake
- Liquidation
- Avalanche
The calcs provided much earlier seem to prove that this can be used to much effect (more so than AV Ttar).

You really don't need scarf on Greninja either. Just Ice beam when it switches, or water shuriken for priority. These are my 3 cents, for now, and hopefully for some time.

 

[wadusher]

Koko gives a boost to Volt...

Actually Rotom's levitate is kind of double-edged in that it loses out on terrain boosts. Probably best to keep that in mind of you want to pair it with koko.