Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake

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Theres a clear difference between a Pokémon being a generally good Pokémon overall in the metagame and people being forced to run it because they have such a narrow list of Pokémon they can run to not get totally rolled by Naga. Making that point also swerves the fact that both Heatran and Tyranitar are forced to run specific sets to actually be able to respond to Naga over the longer course of a game, SpDef Lefties and AV respectively. So what we have here is not only do you have to run 1 of about 3 Pokémon in order to be able to confidently defensively respond to Naga, you also have to run specific sets on them in order to do so. If this isn’t having an undesirable effect on the metagame by constraining player options to an unhealthy degree then I’m not really sure what is.
 
Please make your Naganadel decision soon, council.

Anyway, let's talk about Araquanid. I'm liking it a lot right now - better than Shuckle, actually. There are lots of teams out there that have trouble with its offensive presence, and it loves how common Pokemon like Heatran, TTar, Landorus, and Gliscor are. The fact that it can threaten both Defoggers and Spinners is really cool.

Sure, it doesn't learn Stealth Rock, but it's typing covers the weaknesses of good setters like Landorus-T and vice versa, so it's not the worst switching between them.

People keep mentioning that Araquanid can run Magic Coat, but personally, I'm not such a big fan of this move. I think it's pretty damn optimistic to think you'll be able to bounce back Greninja spikes or Landorus rocks at all frequently (they usually switch out!), and it's silly to fish for that when you could just attack and kill them outright. I can see it having some use against Ferrothorn and a few rarely-seen hazard setters, but honestly I'd rather run some of the other moves it learns. Regarding taunt: just run a herb if you're afraid of that. No need for Magic Coat.

Against Trick Room teams and Shuckle teams, a cool Araquanid tech I've been running is Substitute. You can substitute turn 1 or 2, then start firing off Liquidations and quickly turn the game into a 6v4 situation. There's not much use for Substitute outside of these matchups, but if you're weak to Trick Room or Shuckle Webs then it's worth running. It can also be used to scout Ferrothorn, but that's not advantageous, usually.

Regarding items: I've tried Leftovers, Focus Sash, Mental Herb, Wacan Berry, and Metronome. They're all pretty decent, though I prefer Wacan Berry and Metronome. Metronome is ran because it racks up against Pokemon like Chansey and Toxapex who could otherwise recover stall you. It's a better offensive item than Mystic Water, for sure.

Araquanid @ Metronome
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Sticky Web
- Liquidation
- Substitute
- Lunge
 
Well, I wouldn't think the council should abstain from a QB, since it seems a majority of OU players agree that Naganadel is overpowered, and the anti-QB side has yet to provide a coherent argument about why the council should abstain.

Say what you will about "[breathing] life into usm," but the majority of OU players seem to agree that Naganadel is overpowered, and if you want the council to abstain from a QB, you should tell us why you think Naganadel is good for the meta. Yea I understand that Heatran and Tyranitar are both viable options, but the fact that Naganadel forces them onto teams 100% of the time seems to suggest poor meta development. This is also coupled with the low cost Naganadel has with using it (Mega Stone namely) – you just throw it onto a team and go.
Naganadel is ending the reign fairies had on the meta, and that's about it from me. I could go on about priority and ice/ground and psyshock lele, but in reality, even I am getting sick of this, and just want it to end. On the other hand, I prefer a meta always changing, keeping us on our toes, over a static meta, but that would probably involve banning a lot of OU Pokemon, and generally be unfun. So, what do you propose to check Naga?
 

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This thread has been full of crap for the most part today, but there is one thing in particular that I want to point out as especially poor.

Weird, for I haven't seen a single Naganadel that caused me problems. Maybe if we sit on this, and wait for the dust to settle, then a clear, nigh-airtight result should be foreseeable.
What is the significance of an assertion like this that contains absolutely no substance whatsoever? You haven’t had “problems” with Naganadel, but what have you used, how have you dealt with it, and why do you feel it is manageable??? This is essentially a one-liner, which we do not allow and shows that there is no argument within the post, but fluffed up to push an unproven focal point — this does nothing more for me than someone flat-out posting “don’t ban Naga” with nothing more.



As a member of the council, I think that “sitting on this”, as you put it, would be a harmful and perhaps careless thing to do. Unless people actually provide true counterarguments with justification, I don’t see any reason to keep Naganadel in the tier. Those with experience and actual justification incorporated into their posts and opinions, outside of a few outliers like p2, are all in favor of banning Naganadel and see how it is ridiculous.

We need to start posting with actual reason and stop posting for the sake of posting. I strongly advise newer users to lurk and read forum rules before joining discussions like these unless they want to face post deletion and potential infraction. This is not even close to the only fundamentally poor post in this thread and I am not afraid to point out and personally deal with future ones if push comes to shove.
 
Not even a full week and the thread is already garbage... woah

Anyways

Have to love Smogon sometimes. "Forced to run Heatran" when Heatran has consistently been a top 5-10 usage Pokemon since release and people are acting like it doesn't completely shut down Naga.
Interesting question: If the Pokémon is really good, is it that bad that you have to use it?

I would say that is still a problem. Sometimes when making a team, I don't always put a Tyranitar or a Heatran, because I like to try different playstyles and different mons. Not only only that, but despite Ttar and Heatran being good mons by themselves, your team is not terribly worse without it. You can pick between different Pokemon and try to find your perfect balance with your team of six

That is why I think Naganadel is unhealthy for the metagame: Every team has to run Heatran or Tyranitar (Or Chansey I guess), not to check a playstyle, not to check a typing that you are weak to. But to check a Pokémon that is so good and so common, that is borderline mandatory to run it

In a Naganadel meta, you have to build a team by having a spot for Ttar or Heatran from the beginning. They stop being an option and start becoming a rule, you have to forced them into your team one way or another, and if you team doesn't have them, either because you ended up building the team without considering or simply because nor Heatran nor Ttar fit well in your team, you have to start from cero
It kind of reminds me of a certain other Pokémon from a long while (maybe to a lesser extent, but the impact on the meta of both is still relatively important)

I think that will be the last thing I type on Naganadel's topic. imo it should be banned. Little counter play and wraps the meta around itself. It doesn't matter if it helps check other broken mon. Ban both if that's the case.

Please make your Naganadel decision soon, council.

Anyway, let's talk about Araquanid. I'm liking it a lot right now - better than Shuckle, actually. There are lots of teams out there that have trouble with its offensive presence, and it loves how common Pokemon like Heatran, TTar, Landorus, and Gliscor are. The fact that it can threaten both Defoggers and Spinners is really cool.

Sure, it doesn't learn Stealth Rock, but it's typing covers the weaknesses of good setters like Landorus-T and vice versa, so it's not the worst switching between them.

People keep mentioning that Araquanid can run Magic Coat, but personally, I'm not such a big fan of this move. I think it's pretty damn optimistic to think you'll be able to bounce back Greninja spikes or Landorus rocks at all frequently (they usually switch out!), and it's silly to fish for that when you could just attack and kill them outright. I can see it having some use against Ferrothorn and a few rarely-seen hazard setters, but honestly I'd rather run some of the other moves it learns. Regarding taunt: just run a herb if you're afraid of that. No need for Magic Coat.

Against Trick Room teams and Shuckle teams, a cool Araquanid tech I've been running is Substitute. You can substitute turn 1 or 2, then start firing off Liquidations and quickly turn the game into a 6v4 situation. There's not much use for Substitute outside of these matchups, but if you're weak to Trick Room or Shuckle Webs then it's worth running. It can also be used to scout Ferrothorn, but that's not advantageous, usually.

Regarding items: I've tried Leftovers, Focus Sash, Mental Herb, Wacan Berry, and Metronome. They're all pretty decent, though I prefer Wacan Berry and Metronome. Metronome is ran because it racks up against Pokemon like Chansey and Toxapex who could otherwise recover stall you. It's a better offensive item than Mystic Water, for sure.

Araquanid @ Metronome
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Sticky Web
- Liquidation
- Substitute
- Lunge
Really interested on seeing Metronome in Araquanid. In theory, it could help against Stall, which happens to be Web's worst matchup. I guess is more reliable than Liquidation's Defense drop
As a few things I would change, I would change the spread to have at least 72 Spe to outspeed Chansey, that outspeeds 4 Spe Chansey, and allows you to set up a Sub against it before it hits toxic, while Liquidation is even more threatening to it
I don't think Lunge is that great. It doesn't seem to hit anything needed that Liquidation doesn't already. But I don't what to put there... maybe put Magic Coat back?



Araquanid @ Metronome/Lefties for the sub recovery(?)
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 184 HP / 252 Atk / 72 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Substitute
- Sticky Web
- Magic Coat? Toxic? Aqua Ring???

This is how my set would look like, Sub Araquanid seems fun, and I would definitely use it once the Defog hype dies down a bit
 
That is why I think Naganadel is unhealthy for the metagame: Every team has to run Heatran or Tyranitar (Or Chansey I guess), not to check a playstyle, not to check a typing that you are weak to. But to check a Pokémon that is so good and so common, that is borderline mandatory to run it
I use Mega Beedrill's drill run to stop Naga before it sets up, and that doesn't always work.

—-

I'd run this:
Araquanid @ Lefties
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Aqua Ring
You can heal, attack, toxic, and substall(?) all in one set.
 
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I'm all for Naga getting banned, argument below but I feel like everything has been said already.

The fact that in most cases of use in two turns you can get a KO, SpA 2+ and Sp1+, also having Nasty Plot to help negate the drawbacks of DracoM really helps. Though it can be countered its incredibly easy to team build around these counters, hell any mon with a strong fighting type move or ground type move and you can essentially clear the way for Naga sweep every damn time, seeing as the main counters are SpD walls 2x and 4x weak to fighting. As long as you take out Ice Shard users before hand there isnt much in the way of priority to stop this thing once it begins to snowball. Obviously theres way more to say but I just wanted to include smth that hasn't been completely done to death already.


Honestly I'd like to see the thread move on from Naga, it'll be an absolute crime if it is not banned over the weekend but no further discussion will change the result either way and it's pretty clear how the people who actually have the authority on the decision feel.

I think if anyone wants to post anti-ban arguments they you should include a screenshot of ELO or at least a couple of replays.
 
Gonna talk about Naganandel cuz it's the most relevant thing going on.

First, yeah it's frickin awesome. Between NP, Dragonium-Z, Assault Vest, HP Ground, and Fire/Poison coverage, it's got a hell of a lot going to it. I've seen a lot of matches decided by the player who chooses to keep Naga around long enough to sweep, and personally a lot of my midgame is currently decided by answering "Ok, but what kills Naga at the end?". I don't think that's healthy, but I also don't know if the meta has had time to adapt to it.

First and foremost, even non-AV Tyranitar stands a good chance against it - provided it comes in at an opportune time, presumably after being forced to sack something:
252 SpA Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 139-165 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Naganadel Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 208-246 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Naganadel Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 88-104 (25.8 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

AV Tar has a better look:
252 SpA Naganadel Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 139-165 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It does a good chunk of damage with Pursuit, even if it's not Banded:
252+ Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 96-114 (33.4 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 190-225 (66.2 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

And obviously EQ/Ice are the 50/50 Naga users are forced to predict around, even if they get out without being pursued. Also, AV Ttar isn't at all useless, I used to use it to mess with Heatran, Lando, and anything that wants to take a Stone Edge to the head, while providing defense against annoying Heatran, Charizard, Lele, Koko, and more.

Second, there are some really underhyped defensive Naga checks: Hippowdon, Stakataka (assuming no HP ground), and Magearna all have good chances on the switch, though NP sets can plow through them with good play. Hippowdon in particular gets a mention for having access to Stealth Rock, Toxic, Roar, and Slack Off while lacking the weaknesses of Tyranitar and Landorus and checking both of them reasonably well. As for NP, I will say that I haven't seen a Naganandel boost on the switch since around Tuesday of this week - apparently that set isn't as popular as it once was. Also, Bronzong can find a place on some teams as a Naga/Lele/Latios/Magearna check - though I won't say it's currently super viable seeing how niche it is.

Last, Offense: Weavile gets a shoutout for its generally spammable Icicle Crash/Knock Off combination with access to Pursuit and Swords Dance. It's still not perfect - Tapu Koko, Scarf Lele, Magearna, Ferrothorn, Lycanroc-D and Mega Scizor all have a fighting chance against its various sets, either as revenge killers or outright switch-ins. On the other hand, with all the fast pokemon trying to check Naga, I've seen some ridiculously good Trick Room teams, which both check speed Naga offense and the kinds of bulky defense that Naga loves to tear through.

So in summation - yeah, Naga is an incredible Pokemon and I have come to hate it quite a bit. I'm not saying it shouldn't be banned, but I wonder how much the metagame will flex to its presence and to what degree that will be healthy or not. I am personally enjoying the adjustment phase before we decide what should become of it.

Aside: I actually hate Lando way more
 
Araquanid @ Focus Sash
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Sticky Web
- Magic Coat
-

I've found most success with this Araquanid set. If you kill off the Diancie, your Mega Pinsir or Bisharp will usually have a field day. Focus Sash also allows you to set up Sticky Web against super powerful attackers such as Kyurem-B, Tapu Bulu, and Tapu Lele. Magic Coat is really important in my opinion. You aren't stopping Toxapex's Toxic Spikes from going up obviously, but you can get a Toxic Spike up on their side of the field before absorbing the one on your side of the field with Naganadel. Magic Coat is also nice for bouncing back other hazards, usually from cocky Ferrothorn. I left the last slot empty because there are a ton of possibilities, but it should end up being Toxic when the metagame settles and people start using Mantine again.
 
Gonna talk about Naganandel cuz it's the most relevant thing going on.

First, yeah it's frickin awesome. Between NP, Dragonium-Z, Assault Vest, HP Ground, and Fire/Poison coverage, it's got a hell of a lot going to it. I've seen a lot of matches decided by the player who chooses to keep Naga around long enough to sweep, and personally a lot of my midgame is currently decided by answering "Ok, but what kills Naga at the end?". I don't think that's healthy, but I also don't know if the meta has had time to adapt to it.

First and foremost, even non-AV Tyranitar stands a good chance against it - provided it comes in at an opportune time, presumably after being forced to sack something:
252 SpA Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 139-165 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Naganadel Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 208-246 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Naganadel Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 88-104 (25.8 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

AV Tar has a better look:
252 SpA Naganadel Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 139-165 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It does a good chunk of damage with Pursuit, even if it's not Banded:
252+ Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 96-114 (33.4 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 190-225 (66.2 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

And obviously EQ/Ice are the 50/50 Naga users are forced to predict around, even if they get out without being pursued. Also, AV Ttar isn't at all useless, I used to use it to mess with Heatran, Lando, and anything that wants to take a Stone Edge to the head, while providing defense against annoying Heatran, Charizard, Lele, Koko, and more.

Second, there are some really underhyped defensive Naga checks: Hippowdon, Stakataka (assuming no HP ground), and Magearna all have good chances on the switch, though NP sets can plow through them with good play. Hippowdon in particular gets a mention for having access to Stealth Rock, Toxic, Roar, and Slack Off while lacking the weaknesses of Tyranitar and Landorus and checking both of them reasonably well. As for NP, I will say that I haven't seen a Naganandel boost on the switch since around Tuesday of this week - apparently that set isn't as popular as it once was. Also, Bronzong can find a place on some teams as a Naga/Lele/Latios/Magearna check - though I won't say it's currently super viable seeing how niche it is.

Last, Offense: Weavile gets a shoutout for its generally spammable Icicle Crash/Knock Off combination with access to Pursuit and Swords Dance. It's still not perfect - Tapu Koko, Scarf Lele, Magearna, Ferrothorn, Lycanroc-D and Mega Scizor all have a fighting chance against its various sets, either as revenge killers or outright switch-ins. On the other hand, with all the fast pokemon trying to check Naga, I've seen some ridiculously good Trick Room teams, which both check speed Naga offense and the kinds of bulky defense that Naga loves to tear through.

So in summation - yeah, Naga is an incredible Pokemon and I have come to hate it quite a bit. I'm not saying it shouldn't be banned, but I wonder how much the metagame will flex to its presence and to what degree that will be healthy or not. I am personally enjoying the adjustment phase before we decide what should become of it.

Aside: I actually hate Lando way more
Your calcs are a bit off, no-one runs AV t-tar with the EVs you are using. In reality, t-tar is way more reliable of a check than your calculations show.

I disagree that NP has fallen off. AFAIK, basically every Naga still has NP, it's just people aren't as inclined to set up anymore. People are so scared of a Naga sweep so they often try and get a cheap kill while its setting up, which makes it so strong to just attack without setting up. Still, NP is super common, it's just that the 50/50s are so heavily in your favour that you can afford to go the safer route and creates holes in their team. It's usually not worth risking a sweep that could potentially lose your Naga, because just by keeping the damn thing alive, your opponent has to play so conservatively
 
Okay, I'm seeing an argument with a massive hole in it that the people making it are either aware and hope others won't catch it, or are just that negligent.

I'm seeing a lot of statements along the line of 'but TTar and Heatran are good Pokemon, saying it forces you to run those isn't a huge problem'.

I'll blow this apart with one simple statement, the issue is not the Pokemon itself, it's the fact you have to run a sub-optimal set in order to beat it. The fact it is Heatran or TTar does not help this stance, being a popular Pokemon in the current meta doesn't make forcing it to run an inferior set okay.

It's not the fact you're forced to run TTar or Heatran, it's the fact you're forced to run AV TTar or SpD Heatran just to get a chance to not get blown back. That is not healthy, and a healthy metagame is what the objective should be.

Forcing people to conform to Naganadel or lose is not healthy at all.

But, from what I've seen, the people this post is aimed at have no leg to stand on anyways, bit will stick to their guns, so I just wasted 5 minutes.

Oh well, said my piece.
 
It's not exactly the same thing. Shed Shell made the pokémon worse in all way when AV Tar and Spe Def Tran can have a few use outside of checking Naganadel. If you want to compare this with something, it's more like the problem we have during the Zygarde Complete Meta (in lesser extent).
 
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OK, last post before I really quit

IDK what in hell was going through my head when I said don't ban this shit, but whatever it was, it's gone now, because this is legit borked. Looking through replays of this meta I cannot fathom why it's stayed for so long. I'm damn sick of seeing AV ttar or heatran on almost every last half-assed team all for this mon. I think I must have overestimated the viability of offensive answers to it like Scarf Gren, but yeah get rid of this shit.

anyways, once it's gone I think pex will return and yeah I think it's actually gonna be a problem, as what a lot of the recent posts have been kinda saying. I wasn't really entertaining the idea of this thing getting suspected until like a week before I "quit" (tho this is gonna be my last session on this site guaranteed) and I kinda came to realize that yeah it's beginning to be a bit out of hand. As Ga(r)y had noted, it blanket checks over half hte meta and centralizes it way too much around t-spikes. USUM is an entirely different meta and maybe the new options for defog will be enough and T Spikes might be manageable but yeah I definitely think ppl should keep an eye on it.

Also IDK how Araquanid will fare in the long run. HO always changes its face after the meta adapts to it and like we have a ton of new defoggers, some of which don't lose to Araquanid. I think it will definitely make webs better for a bit but sadly IDK how long it'll be decent again for. That being said Araquanid definitely improves Webs as a whole.
 
It's not exactly the same thing. Shed Shell made the pokémon worse in all way when AV Tar and Spe Def Tran can have a few use outside of checking Naganadel. If you want to compare this with something, it's more like the problem we have during the Zygarde Complete Meta (in lesser extent).
Forcing one specific set on two separate Pokemon, THEN forcing one of three Pokemon just to have a chance in hell to check it isn't the same as having three Pokemon hold Shed Shell to escape so you can check Dugtrio? It's an extraordinarily similar situation, especially when Assault Vest Tyranitar has been dubbed a Sub-Optimal set and isn't even ranked on the Moveset Viability Thread.

When a player MUST run one of three things to even check something (shakily, as proven before), that offender is clearly an issue. Heatran is great and often used, but not every team can afford to run it. Chansey is used somewhat well, but again, not every team can run her. Don't get me started on AV Tyranitar. You lack one of those three, your team is immediately weak to the strongest set-up sweeper in the meta and therefore makes it bad. Looks like you have to rebuild it from the ground up.

That is something we should NEVER have to do. Accounting for threats is one thing (no one Pokemon has this few checks/counters right now, meaning you can run a multitude of Pokemon to account for common threats. Running specifically one of three or you crumble is over-centralizing.

"But what about other set-up sweepers?"

They each have a number of checks and deterrents that can prevent their run; nobody is flailing their arms at Volcarona or Zygarde for a very good reason.
 
This thread has been full of crap for the most part today, but there is one thing in particular that I want to point out as especially poor.


What is the significance of an assertion like this that contains absolutely no substance whatsoever? You haven’t had “problems” with Naganadel, but what have you used, how have you dealt with it, and why do you feel it is manageable??? This is essentially a one-liner, which we do not allow and shows that there is no argument within the post, but fluffed up to push an unproven focal point — this does nothing more for me than someone flat-out posting “don’t ban Naga” with nothing more.



As a member of the council, I think that “sitting on this”, as you put it, would be a harmful and perhaps careless thing to do. Unless people actually provide true counterarguments with justification, I don’t see any reason to keep Naganadel in the tier. Those with experience and actual justification incorporated into their posts and opinions, outside of a few outliers like p2, are all in favor of banning Naganadel and see how it is ridiculous.

We need to start posting with actual reason and stop posting for the sake of posting. I strongly advise newer users to lurk and read forum rules before joining discussions like these unless they want to face post deletion and potential infraction. This is not even close to the only fundamentally poor post in this thread and I am not afraid to point out and personally deal with future ones if push comes to shove.
The problem here is that mostly everyone caters to a specific playing style that any attempts at a counter-argument will be seen as invalid by most players. Everyone likes to have hard counters/checks that no one considers trying playing differently. Relying more on soft checks and revenge killers to "deal" with threats is much more exciting and actually takes more thought. Having Naganadel in the tier facilitates this result.
 
With all the new UBs and naga's & blace's best defensive checks all being ground weak I thought a ground spam team might be more viable, but with Naga's absurd offensive capabilities comes a resurgence in popularity for ice shard users like weavile and mamoswine that doesn't bode well for the as of now top ranked ground types like landorus, zygarde, and garchomp (all of which Naga can blow past anyway.) In a way, I feel Naga has actually diminished the viability of some of the sets of mons that might RK it, leaving less options to deal with the overcentralising presence it has in the tier.
 
Forcing one specific set on two separate Pokemon, THEN forcing one of three Pokemon just to have a chance in hell to check it isn't the same as having three Pokemon hold Shed Shell to escape so you can check Dugtrio? It's an extraordinarily similar situation, especially when Assault Vest Tyranitar has been dubbed a Sub-Optimal set and isn't even ranked on the Moveset Viability Thread.

When a player MUST run one of three things to even check something (shakily, as proven before), that offender is clearly an issue. Heatran is great and often used, but not every team can afford to run it. Chansey is used somewhat well, but again, not every team can run her. Don't get me started on AV Tyranitar. You lack one of those three, your team is immediately weak to the strongest set-up sweeper in the meta and therefore makes it bad. Looks like you have to rebuild it from the ground up.
I know it's late, but i never said that it was healthy to have to run specific check in a small list for only one threat, i just said that the comparaison with Arena trap it's not really a good one, because Shed Shell it's always an option who weakened your mon and have only one use, when runing sub par set actually have some other use than checking one mon. This doesn't change the fact that the two option are bad by nature, it's just not the same thing. Tbh, i was only nitpick about because ban arg need to be the more accurate possible.
 
OK, last post before I really quit

IDK what in hell was going through my head when I said don't ban this shit, but whatever it was, it's gone now, because this is legit borked. Looking through replays of this meta I cannot fathom why it's stayed for so long. I'm damn sick of seeing AV ttar or heatran on almost every last half-assed team all for this mon. I think I must have overestimated the viability of offensive answers to it like Scarf Gren, but yeah get rid of this shit.

anyways, once it's gone I think pex will return and yeah I think it's actually gonna be a problem, as what a lot of the recent posts have been kinda saying. I wasn't really entertaining the idea of this thing getting suspected until like a week before I "quit" (tho this is gonna be my last session on this site guaranteed) and I kinda came to realize that yeah it's beginning to be a bit out of hand. As Ga(r)y had noted, it blanket checks over half hte meta and centralizes it way too much around t-spikes. USUM is an entirely different meta and maybe the new options for defog will be enough and T Spikes might be manageable but yeah I definitely think ppl should keep an eye on it.

Also IDK how Araquanid will fare in the long run. HO always changes its face after the meta adapts to it and like we have a ton of new defoggers, some of which don't lose to Araquanid. I think it will definitely make webs better for a bit but sadly IDK how long it'll be decent again for. That being said Araquanid definitely improves Webs as a whole.
I think the meta is still early, and I think there is stuff that will rise up into OU.
I personally have been trying a few theories on some stuff outside OU that might check Naga, not to argue them that they are OU, but just so I can be like "yo dawg, X Pokemon just hard counters or at least hard checks Naga" Like I've found Mantine to be ok if it doesn't have thunderbolt, and a few other mons. but Naga is redic
 

Finchinator

You’re so golden
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The problem here is that mostly everyone caters to a specific playing style that any attempts at a counter-argument will be seen as invalid by most players. Everyone likes to have hard counters/checks that no one considers trying playing differently. Relying more on soft checks and revenge killers to "deal" with threats is much more exciting and actually takes more thought. Having Naganadel in the tier facilitates this result.
This post does not really make sense to me. If a Pokemon does not have actual hard checks and counters, then that implies something is dying almost every time it comes in just for a revenge killer or check to come in safely afterwards. This is commonplace for HO teams and that's because they tend to stack speed control, but Naganandel bypasses almost all normal means of revenge killing given that it has Beast Boost and it can easily nullify most checks found on offense with a Nasty Plot boost or a well-timed Z move. I really do not see any more "exciting" or "thoughtful" gameplay being prompted by the presence of Naganandel and I think that you should either specify or perhaps taking a second to rethink your argument as sometimes things really are as black-and-white as we paint them out to be (hint: that time is now)!
 
The problem here is that mostly everyone caters to a specific playing style that any attempts at a counter-argument will be seen as invalid by most players. Everyone likes to have hard counters/checks that no one considers trying playing differently. Relying more on soft checks and revenge killers to "deal" with threats is much more exciting and actually takes more thought. Having Naganadel in the tier facilitates this result.
The problem with this argument is that Naganadel puts immense pressure on the opponent to not allow it to gain any advantage however small, lest it become extremely difficult to impossible to reliably check. Even giving it a single free turn via switching against it limits your options to the following (assuming it NPs and doesn't just blow your switch-in out of the water):
1) Have switched into 122+ base Speed 'mon (or something with an equivalent speed tier) that can reliably OHKO Naga and hope Naga didn't attack that turn.
2) Sack something, then rely on a 122+ base Speed Scarfed 'mon (or something with an equivalent speed tier) to OHKO Naga.
3) Have a tank soak a +2 attack of Naganadel's choosing, then OHKO in return.

On the other hand, giving it a free kill by staying in limits your options to just 2) and 3). There are only a handful of 'mons able to do any one of those three. Furthermore, outside of the hard counters already noted, all of them rely on 50/50s heavily tilted in Naga's favor to simply repel a Naga sweep.
 
Hydreigon @ Dread Plate
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 16 Def / 252 SpA / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Roost
- Taunt
- Defog

I've only used this set in a handful of games, but I've had decent success with it so far. Hydreigon's typing and taunt lets it reliably beat most defensive hazard setters barring Clefable. Good offensive presence (Dread Plate boosted Dark Pulse 2HKOes Lele and Landorus-T) and reliable recovery make Hydreigon more difficult to take advantage of compared to other Defoggers. Pairs really well with most Fire-types since they can take advantage of common switch-ins like Magearna. I like Dread Plate since it bluffs Specs + gives Hydreigon just enough power to 2HKO Lele, but other options like Leftovers would probably work pretty well on this set.
 

Sun

Who cares if one more light goes out? Well I do...
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Hello there, (Ultra) Sun here, usually i don't post in thread like this, but i want to be honest to say this thread is becoming really weird lmao. My thoughts about Naganadel are the same mentioned by Finch some pages ago, this mon is broken, the fact Naganadel makes AV Tyranitar so popular, which usually was used to handle Volcarona only in specific teams in the recent months, or things like Icium Blissey (are you kidding me? rofl), SpD Ice beam Empoleon or AV Slowking used, show us that this mon centralizes teambuilding to deal with it in my opinion. Revenge kill is probably the best way to handle Naganadel with stuff like Scarf protean Greninja, and priority users such as Weavile and Mamoswine. Anyway, i believe all the relevant pro-ban arguments got mentioned before so there's no sense to repeat them here. i'll speak about some things i liked during my 100-150 games i've played on ladder.

Blacephalon, this thing is really interesting tbh, solid offensive stats with a really good offensive typing are the only pros for it, in the meantime it has a shitty coverage, but it has still a good room to wallbreak against ttar-less teams. Choiced items are the best items allowing it to be a very powerful wallbreaker, i've tried Specs Blacephalon in webs offense and is pretty fine, it hits really hard and Trick make the job easier against Chansey, hopefully, after Naga ban, we'll see less AV Tyranitar around :I Choice Scarf makes it a great revenge killer with enough firepower to hit significantly hard a chunk of the current metagame and a decent speed to handle common threats like shift gear magearna. i've tried Explosion as 4th move and i found it pretty useful to deal with Volcarona, unfortunately Volcarona isn't really common rn due Naganadel's huge impact in USM OU. Blacephalon appreciates choice specs Tapu Lele to get rid of Chansey, Tyranitar etc etc, Psychic terrain is huge for Blacephalon to get rid of priority from Bisharp or mega Mawile. I don't have much to say about the z-crystal variant but i feel like its an inferior set because it loses power and speed if compared with Choiced variants.


Mega Gyarados is really cool at this stage of the metagame, especially because it appreciates Tyranitar ad Heatran's rise in usage, DD+3 attacks and Sub+DD are always its best sets to use, Earthquake is very important for it cause assault vest magearna, which is literally one of the best Naganadel checks outside of Heatran and assault vest Tyranitar, DD makes it a fearsome sweeper after a dragon dance, and Mold breaker is really useful since it break past Mimikyu, one of the best revenge killers in Hyper offense builds, and rotom-wash. thanks to its typing, gyarados-mega can set up against ash Greninja, Bisharp and Blacephalon without much trouble and Substitute makes it really hard to deal with for defensive cores. I like also how this mon can take advantage of stall/balance teams which usually runs stuff like Toxapex, Alomomola and mega Sableye. i've tried mega mega Gyarados, and as i said for Blacephalon, it appreciates Lele support too, which is very fearsome for stuff like Venusaur-mega, mega Scizor and Zapdos.


Trick room got better and better this generation, and with the addition of "The Wall" aka Stakataka, it has another fearsome breaker in their arsenal. while it's typing is shit defensively, it has a really good offensive presence with the most powerful gyro ball in the game and it can be used as pure wallbreaker with choice band (is very powerful oml),or an OTR Rockium variant, which is better in my opinion, especially outside of full-trick room teams, like OTR Magearna. This pokemon is surely not awesome, it has a niche in OU and i think it might work very well in some kind of match ups. during my ladder run i tried it in full Trick room, and seeing a defensive Landorus-t still being 2HKO by a -1 CB Gyro ball is pretty fun to watch. This mon needs a good defensive backbone in the back to handle water types, fighting types and ground types, Assault vest Tapu Bulu and landorus therian in my opinion, are two of the best partners if you going to use Stakataka outside of Trick room-based teams from what i've seen.


Heatran, even without Naganadel around, it's one of the best pokemon in Overused since DPP era. It checks many pokemons, such as Scizor mega, assault vest Magearna, double dance boltbeam Magearna, Toxapex, HP ground-less Volcarona and the list goes on.. now with Naganadel around, is getting even more usage, the special defensive set is the most used to deal with Naganadel, in the meantime i don't agree with people who thinks SpD Heatran is getting more usage only cause Naganadel presence in the tier, Special Defensive Heatran was already a pretty decent set in SM OU, an uncommon set isn't bad, is just uncommon, especially in Heatran case. Heatran provides much role compression, and it will be always appreciated in every Overused metagame.


Fighting types such as mega Lopunny and mega Medicham are better picks for offensive team in a metagame where Heatran and Tyranitar are like everywhere and with the fall in usage of common defensive countermeasures such as Toxapex and Clefable. Mega lopunny is really good in bulky offense and Hyper offense builds while Medicham seen some usage in webs offense. Both these fighting types are very fearsome for current metagame trends and they appreciates slow pivots such as defensive Landorus-t and Assault vest Magearna to grab momentum. Not much to say about these two, y'all know what they do and how much they're good in offense builds.



Tutor Defog is probably one the biggest change in USM, a lot of pokemons learns it now, removing hazards froo the field isn't that hard now, many offensive pokemons gets it, offensive pokemons such as Tapu koko, Hawlucha, Landorus-therian, Hydreigon, Tornadus-therian and more defensive-based pokemons like Rotom-w and Poison Heal Gliscor. This means we can change a lot our teambuilding process, for example, koko+kyub will not requires more anther hazard remover like Latios, more offensive builds can use defog on Hawlucha (like i did in ladder), which is interesting if you don't need Drain Punch/Roost/Pjab on it. Stall builds takes advantage of double Defog without much issues now, Gliscor is pretty decent, in the meanwhile, i found Rotom-w a little underwhelming, it is not bulky as it was in the pas gens due to z-moves and new stuff like Tapu koko, Tapu Lele and Tapu Bulu. Defog Landorus-t, i've heard some people say "this mon is broken wtf, ban it now". Defog is not really a good option outside of the Choice Scarfed set in my opinion. Lando is the best rocker in the game, there's no sense to use it as your dedicated hazard remover, that's just my opinion.

With that being said, I think I'll end here, there would be other things to say, but they would be too much. peace!
 
Ok I got removed for one liner, which is fair so I want to quickly elaborate. I compared the centralisation Naga brings to the tier with that of Dugtrio during that suspect, citing the Shed Shell usage and the fact that mons were factually worse off for it, yet were forced to run it due to the centralisation of the tier on Duggy.

Though I get it can be hard to see the comparison, in this case the 'Shed Shell' is weird SpD builds on mons that are less effective because of this, but again forced to run through over-centralisation. I mean who looks at Ttar and thinks 'oh yeah the best build for this mon is SpD', or Blissey and think 'Yep this mon is the one who can best use Icium Z'. No-one. People think 'Right I need a counter to Naganadel' and build a team from there.

Honestly Heatran should not have to build SpD really when it is immune to two of Naga's main moves and resists the other.


I love Sun's post evaluating the meta game but it's so discouraging to read shit when it's like 'appreciated rise in Ttar/Tran' because they're gonna drop right back off again as soon as Naga is banned. Luckily I just picked up USun so I have something to play while the meta is being torn up by this beast. I really can't be bothered building teams that will be invalid in a few days/a week.
 

WECAMEASROMANS

Banned deucer.
i dont think naganadel is broken, or at least broken enough to warrant a quick ban at all. naganadel is a potent, dangerous top tier threat and is perhaps the single best set up sweeper in the metagame currently, but it also has several flaws and methods to play around it that i wouldnt quite call it undeniably broken.

theres nothing to talk about besides the the nasty plot z-draco sludge wave fire blast set, as all its other sets dont push it over the edge. now, for this dreaded np set, setting up can prove to be a bit more difficult than expected. its true, naganadel's bulk for an offensive mon isnt actually bad at all, 73/73/73 bulk is pretty decent compared to other fast, hard hitting speedsters. however, its defensive typing is definitely an issue because it leaves it vulnerable to some of the most common attacking types in the tier. setting up safely can be a relatively difficult task when you consider just how many mons in OU pack coverage options that hit you super effectively. even a mon thats weak to nagandel's STABs, such as AV tangrowth for example, can stay in while you NP and hit you with a hard hitting EQ that does a shitton of damage that you're now in such low health and easily picked apart by a mscizor bullet punch or fake out lopunny or something. this is a relatively common scenario that you cant risk setting up since av tangrowth comfortably lives an unboosted sludge wave and has regenerator. even though naganadel has somewhat *decent* bulk for an offensive mon this completely ignores its vulnerability to common attacking types which offsets these defensive stats, its similar to kyurem-b in a way where kube is, statwise, one of the bulkiest mons in the metagame but its poor defensive typing leaves much to be desired.

unboosted, naganadel is slightly weaker than latios with a much more predictable movepool. theres also the issue of being over reliant on z-draco to get a kill to start getting speed boosts. once your z-draco is used up but you fail to ohko the opposing mon, you lose your one time use nuke and now sweeping is going to be significantly more difficult since you probably dont have the boosted speed anymore. nagandel at +2 is indeed powerful, however various forms of defensive counterplay do exist that its not substantially difficult to stop it, especially when you consider the amount of offensive pressure you can put on it to prevent it from setting up in the first place. av ttar and spdef heatran with earth power are two of the most common ive seen mentioned on this thread, and both are rather common so its not like you're packing super niche mons to check it either. theres also mons like t-wave chansey, av magearna with spatk investment to ohko with fleur cannon, and the slow rock steel mon with gyro ball. that list may not seem like much, but its already longer than the counters list to several mons in OU (like honestly how many mons in OU can you find that switch into CB ttar or z-freeze shock kyube???)

also can we please stop pretending like naganadel is some super restricting pokemon because it *forces* you to run shit like assault vest, or specially defensive leftovers, on two of the most common mons in the tier?? you guys act like you've never run a set just for one mon in OU but you guys literally do this all the time, probably without realizing it, but then when it comes to adapting to naganadel you guys say that one pokemon shouldnt restrict the metagame by that much. how about having hp ice on defensive lando-t, just so you can hit other lando-ts? is that not restricting as well? what about shed shell toxapex, which we thought would die down completely after arena trap banned, but nope, you guys still use it, and for what? one mon named heatran cuz it utilizes magma storm? thats pretty restrictive as well. shed shell skarm instead of leftovers/rh is an example too, and so is iron head on av magearna just to hit other CM magearnas/CM clef. spdef leftovers tran has been one of the most standard sets on heatran for god knows how long now, and av ttar isnt even a "bad" set at all. you check mega zam/zard-y much better, you also hard check tapu lele since now moonblast isnt even a 2HKO, and with eq you can even tank hard hits from magearna/specs koko and win.
 
i dont think naganadel is broken, or at least broken enough to warrant a quick ban at all. naganadel is a potent, dangerous top tier threat and is perhaps the single best set up sweeper in the metagame currently, but it also has several flaws and methods to play around it that i wouldnt quite call it undeniably broken.

theres nothing to talk about besides the the nasty plot z-draco sludge wave fire blast set, as all its other sets dont push it over the edge. now, for this dreaded np set, setting up can prove to be a bit more difficult than expected. its true, (1.) naganadel's bulk for an offensive mon isnt actually bad at all, 73/73/73 bulk is pretty decent compared to other fast, hard hitting speedsters. however, its defensive typing is definitely an issue because it leaves it vulnerable to some of the most common attacking types in the tier. setting up safely can be a relatively difficult task when you consider just how many mons in OU pack coverage options that hit you super effectively. even a mon thats weak to nagandel's STABs, such as AV tangrowth for example, can stay in while you NP and hit you with a hard hitting EQ that does a shitton of damage that you're now in such low health and easily picked apart by a mscizor bullet punch or fake out lopunny or something. this is a relatively common scenario that you cant risk setting up since (2.) av tangrowth comfortably lives an unboosted sludge wave and has regenerator. even though naganadel has somewhat *decent* bulk for an offensive mon this completely ignores its vulnerability to common attacking types which offsets these defensive stats, its similar to kyurem-b in a way where kube is, statwise, one of the bulkiest mons in the metagame but its poor defensive typing leaves much to be desired.

unboosted, naganadel is slightly weaker than latios with a much more predictable movepool. theres also the issue of being over reliant on z-draco to get a kill to start getting speed boosts. once your z-draco is used up but you fail to ohko the opposing mon, you lose your one time use nuke and now sweeping is going to be significantly more difficult since you probably dont have the boosted speed anymore. nagandel at +2 is indeed powerful, however various forms of defensive counterplay do exist that its not substantially difficult to stop it, especially when you consider the amount of offensive pressure you can put on it to prevent it from setting up in the first place. av ttar and spdef heatran with earth power are two of the most common ive seen mentioned on this thread, and both are rather common so its not like you're packing super niche mons to check it either. theres also mons like t-wave chansey, av magearna with spatk investment to ohko with fleur cannon, and the slow rock steel mon with gyro ball. that list may not seem like much, but its already longer than the counters list to several mons in OU (like honestly how many mons in OU can you find that switch into CB ttar or z-freeze shock kyube???)

also can we please stop pretending like naganadel is some super restricting pokemon because it *forces* you to run shit like assault vest, or specially defensive leftovers, on two of the most common mons in the tier?? you guys act like you've never run a set just for one mon in OU but you guys literally do this all the time, probably without realizing it, but then when it comes to adapting to naganadel you guys say that one pokemon shouldnt restrict the metagame by that much. how about having hp ice on defensive lando-t, just so you can hit other lando-ts? is that not restricting as well? what about shed shell toxapex, which we thought would die down completely after arena trap banned, but nope, you guys still use it, and for what? one mon named heatran cuz it utilizes magma storm? thats pretty restrictive as well. shed shell skarm instead of leftovers/rh is an example too, and so is iron head on av magearna just to hit other CM magearnas/CM clef. spdef leftovers tran has been one of the most standard sets on heatran for god knows how long now, and av ttar isnt even a "bad" set at all. you check mega zam/zard-y much better, you also hard check tapu lele since now moonblast isnt even a 2HKO, and with eq you can even tank hard hits from magearna/specs koko and win.
Ok here we go.

1. You can't really cite Naga's bulk/defensive typing saying it isnt that great, it's not meant to be defensive? If it had good defensive stats and typing then it wouldn't be a broken offensive pokemon? Despite this it's defense is still superior to comparable mons like Greninja allowing it to live and set up more times that not with any reasonable amount of thought put in.

2. The next points I've bolded are just examples of a player using Naganadel super poorly and then acting like the mon is the problem. Why would you fire an unboosted sludge wave at AV Tangrowth? Even if you decide to stay in and take the EQ damage to set up you can just KO the Tangrowth or essentially anything that swaps in (such as the priority users, if you wanted to get the regenerator then you'd have to swap smth in to take a hit) and speed boost. If you've left any of the very few and obvious checks alive or taken a hit to set up when your opponent has priority, then that is bad play. Ofc AV and specially defensive monsters can take hits, but guess what, Chansey, AV Mag, SpD Gyro ball also counter fkn Xerneas, does that mean X not broken?

3. We are not pretending that is exactly what it does. HP ice on Land-T is not as restricting because this is one move slot that you're not really sacrificing anything out of? What great move would you put in that slot if not HP Ice? It's still a good coverage move for Garchomp, Zygarde, Lando, all those 4x weak. Naga forces sup optimal EV's, Item and 4 Moves that were not used before, Dugtrio was banned for forcing just an item.

Just because these mons were already used doesn't mean that forcing them to run SpD builds, which they didn;t before commonly, is'nt unhealthy. Shed Shell Tox is not even remotely close to as common during Dugtrio times, while he was unbanned you were at a significant disadvantage without running Shed Shell even though this only countered.

4. The only time I've ever run a set for just one mon has been against shit that was eventually banned, how could you unconsciously make a set to counter one mon, like that sentence just makes no sense to me? If you're making a set to counter something then obviously you're thinking about it. If you make a set without thinking this is just for one mon, then you didn't make a set just to counter that? Am I on crazy pills?

Look if all you anti-ban dudes are right I'll hang up my Smogon gloves, clearly I'm out of it if Naga is actually kept in OU because I've really not seen anything that so obviously needs to be banned in a long time that has stayed this long.

Sorry if this post sounds flamey I don't mean to be, I'm just frustrated cause the game isn't fun to play when the creativity in teambuilding is restricted like this and there's really no point trying new things for Nag with his ban being so imminent, lastly I'm sick of seeing this thing on every. single. team.
 
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