DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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The SToss/CosmicPower/Toxic/Softboiled Clefable can be downright mean. It's some kind of twilight-zone Shedinja where you can only kill it if you crit and it will 6-0 you unless you have a ghost, a poison/steel, or specifically Gengar.
Definitely one of the most versatile pokemon in the game.


I really would like to say that the argument that goes, "It's position in OU does not factor into it's use in UU" has been defunct. If Tenta and Froslass can go OU for no reason other than they do GREAT in OU, then their position in UU is irrelevant.
Food for thought.
 
Close Combat from hitmonchan and hitmonlee OHKOs the most defensive Clefable with a Black Belt or Expert Belt. Clefable will need 2 cosmic powers before it stands a chance with softboiled.

Walrein can switch in, hit a 101+ sub (immune to toxic and SToss doesn't break), and then roar it out. Lapras can do similarly with perish song.
 
Forsety said:
Problem being a good Baton Pass Hypno is nigh impossible to obtain.
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Load and run Shoddy Battle, click New Team, select Hypno, click on tick box next to Baton Pass, select three other moves then input desired EV spread. Wow, I've just achieved the near impossible!

Seriously though, a Pokemon's usefulness should never take into account its availability, especially when the majority of battling takes place on simulators. After all, a good Entei is hard to obtain for wi-fi, but that doesn't mean anyone would accept it as an option for a UU battle. As for Hypno I don't see how Plot passing would make it BL as it can still easily be dealt with by PHazing. With just 67 speed it's no Floatzel with its super fast Taunt. Besides, even if it were broken we'd know soon enough as it's going to get tested thoroughly anyway so I don't quite understand what Jaxi is getting at with that post.

EDIT: Now that I think more about it, most Pokemon that would potentially switch in to Haze such as Blastoise, Altaria and Mantine aren't that much faster than Hypno themselves so it would be feasible for Hypno to run enough speed to Taunt first, given that such Pokemon probably won't be running any speed. Perhaps the main thing Hypno has to worry about is being able to survive in order to make the pass, given that there are plenty of strong Bug and Dark types in UU still.
 
I think Hypno deserves testing. Hypnosis/Nasty plot/Baton pass is great.
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"I think [Pokemon] deserves testing. Good move #1/Good move #2/Good move #3 is great." This does not work. At all.

There are puh-lenty of pokes and teams that sport CC or any fighting attack for that matter, be it Hitmonlee/chan/top, Pinsir, Primeape, Poliwrath, and random Focus Punchers.

Clefable is the quintessential jack of all trades. It can do nearly everything, but there are usually better options out there. Attacking versions run off its base 70 attack and relatively poor coverage, Calm Mind versions lack STAB, the only thing it excels at is special walling, and even then it competes with Hypno, Grumpig, Meganium, Shuckle and friends. It's good, but I dont believe it's BL material.
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Maybe. But consider that Fighting is hardly used outside of STAB, and Clefable also learns lolPsychic. And it can also Thunder Wave many of these, and Fighting attacks being there also doesn't prevent it from walling a lot of other things so effectively.

Yes, if you're going to run a set another Pokemon could do, then Clefable is inferior. But there is absolutely nothing that has the threat of 4217892479 movesets in one, ranging from offensive to supportive. And there is absolutely nothing else that has NO worries about residual damage at all.
 
I'm sure I mentioned Clefable ages ago ... anyway I'm agreeing with Mekkah, Clefable is evil (and personally I find it more threatening than most of the debatables)
 
That Hypno has worked very well for me in OU. Ok, now that I think about it the pokes with Insomnia and Vital spirit can make it a little less effective so I guess it's fine in UU.
I used Bold, 252 HP/252 Def/6 Speed with Hypnosis/Nasty plot/Baton pass/Psychic. I actually didn't face that many (p)hazers so that might be why it worked so well.
 
Shiny Oddish said:
It's not really, there are only two real options and both require Ninetales to have already lost at least 1/3 of its health ...

1. Banette would have to be Sashed and T-Wave 'tales on the first, and Shadow Claw it the second

Adamant 252 ATT Banette vs. Timid 0 HP 0 Defence Ninetales

Shadow Claw = 52% - 61%

Or Banette is reliant on priority moves ...

Adamant 252 ATT CB Banette vs. same Ninetales

Shadow Sneak = 44% - 52%
Sucker Punch = 59% - 69%
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Actually, what I was saying was that I was doubtful that Banette could be a real counter to Ninetails.
 
Lemmiwinks MkII said:
Load and run Shoddy Battle and watch it crash. Load and run Shoddy again, click New Team, select Hypno, click on tick box next to Baton Pass, select three other moves then input desired EV spread, watch Shoddy crash again without saving. Wow, I've just achieved the normal!
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Fixed for accuracy.
 
Dragontamer said:
Close Combat from hitmonchan and hitmonlee OHKOs the most defensive Clefable with a Black Belt or Expert Belt. Clefable will need 2 cosmic powers before it stands a chance with softboiled.

Walrein can switch in, hit a 101+ sub (immune to toxic and SToss doesn't break), and then roar it out. Lapras can do similarly with perish song.
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The Hitmons hate STosses on the switch since they can only take 3 AT MOST (though without any HP investment, they can only realistically take 2 and residual damage) before going down, likewise Toxic will assure them not staying in.

Walrein could probably work assuming it doesn't eat Toxic on the switch.
Most Lapras I see run Boltbeam or Dragon Dance. Perish Song doesn't bother Clefable a whole lot since it'll take the opportunity to Toxic and walk away.

Or you could just use a steel/poison or a ghost or both. Or a crit abuser. It's not indefatigable, just mean. Very much like a Shedinja.



Hypno without Calm Mind? Blasphemy. =P
The Nasty Plot passer would work if not for his terrible speed. Ninetales can pull it off because it can outrun most things that switch in after it sleeps your counter.
 
Hypno without Calm Mind? Blasphemy. =P
The Nasty Plot passer would work if not for his terrible speed. Ninetales can pull it off because it can outrun most things that switch in after it sleeps your counter.
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How does Ninetales get Baton Pass?
 
Pneuma said:
The Hitmons hate STosses on the switch since they can only take 3 AT MOST (though without any HP investment, they can only realistically take 2 and residual damage) before going down, likewise Toxic will assure them not staying in.
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As long as you switch in on softboiled, you should be fine :-p For Hitmonlee, switch in on t-wave.

Chan can probably run a sucessful sub/punch set in UU, so Toxic/T-Wave isn't as much to fear. Either way, you switch in, and potentially have an OHKO with Close Combat. So either Clefable dies, or some other pokemon takes a hit (unless a ghost is on their team still)

Walrein could probably work assuming it doesn't eat Toxic on the switch.
Most Lapras I see run Boltbeam or Dragon Dance. Perish Song doesn't bother Clefable a whole lot since it'll take the opportunity to Toxic and walk away.
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Lapras has 101+ subs as well, protecting it from Toxic, T-wave, and Seismic toss. Lapras is another "Jack of all trades" pokemon to watch out for btw :-p.
 
Pneuma said:
Hypno without Calm Mind? Blasphemy. =P
The Nasty Plot passer would work if not for his terrible speed. Ninetales can pull it off because it can outrun most things that switch in after it sleeps your counter.
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Hypno is slow but it can definitely take a hit and pass to a sweeper (and your sweeper doesn't take damage after the pass if Hypno is slower). And Ninetales doesn't learn Baton pass.
 
For convenience's sake, here's the list again:

Absol
Aggron
Altaria
Ampharos
Armaldo
Banette
Blastoise
Butterfree
Cacturne
Camerupt
Carnivine
Chatot
Cherrim
Clamperl
Clefable
Cradily
Crawdaunt
Drifblim
Dunsparce
Electrode
Fearow
Froslass
Gastrodon
Girafarig
Glaceon
Golduck
Golem
Gorebyss
Granbull
Grumpig
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop
Huntail
Hypno
Kabutops
Kangaskhan
Kingler
Lanturn
Lapras
Linoone
Lopunny
Lunatone
Luxray
Manetric
Mantine
Meganium
Mightyena
Muk
Nidoking
Nidoqueen
Ninetales
Noctowl
Octillery
Omastar
Persian
Pelipper
Pidgeot
Pikachu
Pinsir
Politoed
Poliwrath
Primeape
Probopass
Quagsire
Qwilfish
Raichu
Rapidash
Raticate
Relicanth
Rotom
Sableye
Sandslash
Seviper
Sharpedo
Shiftry
Shuckle
Skuntank
Solrock
Stantler
Sudowoodo
Sunflora
Swalot
Swellow
Tentacruel
Torkoal
Toxicroak
Trapinch
Venomoth
Vespiquen
Victreebel
Vileplume
Wailord
Whiscash
Wigglytuff
Xatu
 
Lapras has quite a few viable sets.

The analysis has Boltbeam, DDance, Curse, and Resttalk.
Roar or Perish Song makes it work as a phazer.
Body Slam, Twave, and Toxic can go on a support set.
There's also a gimmick set with Whirlpool, PSong, Protect, and Sub.


You'll find that, despite having pretty awesome defenses (130/80/95), Wtr/Ice is a terrible defensive typing and it ends up dying to random Close Combats and Stone Egdes.
 
Dragontamer said:
Close Combat from hitmonchan and hitmonlee OHKOs the most defensive Clefable with a Black Belt or Expert Belt. Clefable will need 2 cosmic powers before it stands a chance with softboiled.

Walrein can switch in, hit a 101+ sub (immune to toxic and SToss doesn't break), and then roar it out. Lapras can do similarly with perish song.
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Many Clefables carry Chople Berry. It's already hard to take them down as it is, Chople berry makes it even harder. And it's a shame Clefable doesn't take struggle damage in Shoddy.. usually when their last pokemon is Clefable, and therefore can't be switched out, stall wars start, but Clefable has the upper hand with no struggle recoil. As for Walrein, I don't stand a chance if it's their last pokemon. Perish Song is an interesting idea, finally a solid solution for other stallers.
 
The Hitmons hate STosses on the switch since they can only take 3 AT MOST (though without any HP investment, they can only realistically take 2 and residual damage) before going down, likewise Toxic will assure them not staying in.
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4 At most.

304 - 100 == 204.
204 - 100 == 104
104 - 100 == 4
4 - 100 == death.

So Seismic toss is 3-hit KO or 4 hit KO. With stealth rocks down, it is still a 3-hit KO with 0 EV investment.

Many Clefables carry Chople Berry. It's already hard to take them down as it is, Chople berry makes it even harder. And it's a shame Clefable doesn't take struggle damage in Shoddy.. usually when their last pokemon is Clefable, and therefore can't be switched out, stall wars start, but Clefable has the upper hand with no struggle recoil. As for Walrein, I don't stand a chance if it's their last pokemon. Perish Song is an interesting idea, finally a solid solution for other stallers.
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Just wondering: After the Chople Berry is used up because a Hitmonlee smacked you with Close Combat... what do you plan to do? No matter what, Hitmonlee is going to OHKO you on the next turn, or smack the next pokemon with a Close Combat.

Choice Band Grandbull also has a chance to OHKO the most defensive Clefable, which translates to 2-hit KO with Chople Berry.
 
On the turn that the Chople Berry is going to be used up, Clefable can just use Double-Edge Hitmonlee and have a clean OHKO since Hitmonlee isn't going to be surviving with 50 base HP, 53 base defense and a defense drop...

Clefable is faster than Granbull so it can just use Double-Edge to kill it as well from a defense drop from Close Combat.
 
Bologo said:
On the turn that the Chople Berry is going to be used up, Clefable can just use Life Orb Double-Edge Hitmonlee and have a clean OHKO since Hitmonlee isn't going to be surviving with 50 base HP, 53 base defense and a defense drop...

Clefable is faster than Granbull so it can just use Life Orb Double-Edge to kill it as well from a defense drop from Close Combat.
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Umm... How are you using chople and LO? Can you teach me your two item trick?
 
Bologo said:
On the turn that the Chople Berry is going to be used up, Clefable can just use Life Orb Double-Edge Hitmonlee and have a clean OHKO since Hitmonlee isn't going to be surviving with 50 base HP, 53 base defense and a defense drop...

Clefable is faster than Granbull so it can just use Life Orb Double-Edge to kill it as well from a defense drop from Close Combat.
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I hope you quickly notice the glaring error in your reasoning here.

Besides, I'm sure the discussion was about that Seismic Toss/Toxic/Cosmic Power/Softboiled set mentioned earlier, which certainly does hold back Clefable in situations where Double Edge can net an easy 1-2HKO, even without Life Orb.

EDIT: Beaten to it by Drakhun.
 
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