I'm fucking sorry about that.
My points:
-BL not existing at all for a while.
-Steelix making Aggron useless - altough it has Metal Burst and better Attack.
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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
- Thread starter alex
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My points:
-BL not existing at all for a while.
-Steelix making Aggron useless - altough it has Metal Burst and better Attack.
the tier suggestion was crushed, just as i thought
walrein and glaceon only work in OU with hail in play i think
i mean, glaceon's blizzard hits so freaking hard, it's not even funny
walrein and glaceon only work in OU with hail in play i think
i mean, glaceon's blizzard hits so freaking hard, it's not even funny
Shedinja is ass and is not even worth discussing as BL imo.
Ninetales should definitely be BL. Her base 100 Speed and Sp. Def. make her quite usable especially when you consider that Flash Fire gives her a free switch in with a boost. Aside from her stats, she gets Hypnosis and Nasty Plot to be able to boost her somewhat dismal base 85 special attack. Fire Blast gives her powerful STAB and she's one of a few Fire types to get a reliable grass type move in Energy Ball.
There's no way she can be UU when I've swept an entire team with her. I had my Dusknoir out against a fully Nasty Plot'ed Mixape. Ninetales switched on a Flamethrower and then put Nape to sleep. Two Nasty Plots and a Fire Blast later, the Nape was done. She then proceded to 2HKO a Dragonite while taking a Danced Earthquake in the process. Donphan, Blissey, Bronzong, and Cresselia soon followed.
There's no way she can be UU when I've swept an entire team with her. I had my Dusknoir out against a fully Nasty Plot'ed Mixape. Ninetales switched on a Flamethrower and then put Nape to sleep. Two Nasty Plots and a Fire Blast later, the Nape was done. She then proceded to 2HKO a Dragonite while taking a Danced Earthquake in the process. Donphan, Blissey, Bronzong, and Cresselia soon followed.
That story sounds really fishy. First, Infernape would have at least Close Combatted before it went down to sleep as it is faster. A DDed Earthquake from Dragonite would OHKO any Ninetales, and even if you had Focus Sash, an Ice Shard from Donphan would have finished you off. If zero of those happened, then you were fighting against an idiot, and should not hold that battle representative of a Pokemon's overall power.
You haven't given a reason why besides "We should start by UU and OU and then, IF NEEDED, make BL. Since everybody LOVES BL because it doesn't have Blissey and shit. Like fucking Snorlax is less cheap."
Like I said, Steelix's existence (or lack thereof) in UU has absolutely no effect on whether or not Aggron is too powerful in NU. Pokemon's tiers are determined by the lowest level they're weak enough for, not highest level they can play effectively in. It doesn't matter if Aggron is worthless in UU - if it's too strong for NU, it's still in UU.
If you want that explained more clearly: Aggron is too strong for NU but not overpowered in UU. Thus, it is UU.
He is probably too good for UU. An SD Shadow Sneak hurts in any tier, and even with SR he can still surprise many teams that don't have a counter for him/sweep after counters are removed.
By the way, does he get U-Turn? That'd be badass.
It has been decided that a proper UU argument should result from you describing how Ninetales is too powerful for UU, as opposed to how it might work in OU. OU is a different metagame, and you have said nothing about why Ninetales is too powerful when say... Tentacruel essentially walls it taking only 30% max from a Nasty Plot energy ball. (Even less from Fire Blast)
If not Tentacruel (who might be OU), then there is always the great number of insomnia pokemon who act as walls. Hypno and Noctowl can both take a Nasty Plot fire blast even with stealth rocks in play (switch on Nasty Plot) and put Ninetails to sleep. It is even better if Ninetails uses Hypnosis first because both Noctowl and Hypno are immune.
Noctowl can then roost off the damage.
UU is not a "demotion" of pokemon, nor does it really say that UU pokemon are too weak for OU. UU is simply a different metagame, where popular guys are banned.
Probably, maybe, who knows? Thus, he is a candidate for testing :-)
And ... ? Perhaps your opponent just sucked?
I've taken out an entire OU tam with Aggron, does that make it too powerful for UU ... no.
Yes base 100 speed is good, but its not unbeatable there are things in UU that are faster and can hit Ninetales harder ...
Hypnosis + Nasty Plot takes two to set up, and that is assuming Hypnosis hits first go ... a lot can happen in two turns.
And to add to Dragontamers list of potential counters Rapidash is faster, has its own flash fire to come in with and can also Hypnotise. Lopunny is faster, has a fairly decent special defence, and can switcheroo something detrimental too 'tales. At a push a defensive Torkoal with Earthquake might even work.
Ninetales is good ... too good?, debatable which is why she is being tested.
With Energy Ball, Ninetales actually has a great attack combo (Altaria is the only dragon in UU to lol at it)-- but with its base sp. ATK . . . lol
Good, but agreeing with others that she's worth a debate.
Good, but agreeing with others that she's worth a debate.
1. BL is not a balanced metagame. It doesn't matter if Ninetales can't compete with Rapidash, the only balanced metagames are going to be OU and UU.
2. Rapidash is not BL either. Rapidash is currently a solid UU. No debate has been brought up why rapidash should be BL as of now.
3. Ninetales, a special sweeper / fast status, cannot be compared to Rapidash with the only exception being Hypnosis. Even their primary attacks cannot be compared. Ninetails has Energy Ball, Extrasensory, Fire Blast / Flamethrower, Rapidash has Megahorn, Flare Blitz and Return.
well Ninetales should be able to set up easily.. although I havent tested anything in UU yet it should be simple. Hypnosis must hit though or its screwed but dont say it isnt easy to set up. Hypnosis hits, next turn Nasty Plot and something switches in, then your Fire Blast/Energy Ball or switch. I would rate it as a BL at least until testing has been done.
I noticed typhlosion isn't in BL or OU so therefore he has to be
in UU right? I think he should be in BL, with the proper set-up he's
amazingly deadly, being the fastest eruption user, and decent spattk.
I once swept an entire UU team on shoddy with quilava, and if quilava
can do that in UU, typhlo should be BL...
in UU right? I think he should be in BL, with the proper set-up he's
amazingly deadly, being the fastest eruption user, and decent spattk.
I once swept an entire UU team on shoddy with quilava, and if quilava
can do that in UU, typhlo should be BL...
Typhlosion is way too deadly to be in UU. It has 109 base Sp.Att and 100 base Speed. And it has access to Eruption.
Ninetails belongs in BL cause it has a nice moveset and Hypnosis missing. Just attach Sash so you get at least two attempts at using it. It has low Sp.Att but we have Specs and Nasty Plot this gen so...
Ninetails belongs in BL cause it has a nice moveset and Hypnosis missing. Just attach Sash so you get at least two attempts at using it. It has low Sp.Att but we have Specs and Nasty Plot this gen so...
The official tier list hasn't been updated in awhile, so there are some pokemon that have been decided (by the discussions in this topic, anyways) to be BL but haven't actually been moved yet. Typhlosion is one of those.
I'm on the wall about Ninetales - Hypnoplot is a nasty combo and it's stats are quite good for UU, but it's coverage is a bit lacking with only 2 attacks. Also, pokemon with sleep immunity are much more common in UU (Not quite sure how useful Banette and Vigoroth would be, but Noctowl would probably work quite well thanks to it's good sp def and recovery, Hypno has good sp def and sleep immunity too).
I'm on the wall about Ninetales - Hypnoplot is a nasty combo and it's stats are quite good for UU, but it's coverage is a bit lacking with only 2 attacks. Also, pokemon with sleep immunity are much more common in UU (Not quite sure how useful Banette and Vigoroth would be, but Noctowl would probably work quite well thanks to it's good sp def and recovery, Hypno has good sp def and sleep immunity too).
Why I feel Ninetales should be UU Testing.
1. Tentacruel, Mantine and Altera are perfect counters assuming sleep clause is in effect. They can take nasty plot fire blasts and energy balls with ease. And although tentacruel has trouble with Extrasensory, there is a chance that even with Nasty Plot that Extrasensory will only 3-hit KO with max Sp. Def / HP and leftovers.
2. Noctowl and Hypno can switch in on Hypnosis and beat Ninetales 1v1.
3. Ninetails, Rapidash and Flareon are Ninetails counters due to flash fire and resistance to Energy Ball. Flareon can roar/yawn.
4. Probopass can survive Nasty Plotted Fire Blasts
Ninetails has far more counters than swellow, pinsir and hitmonlee as it is, and we're going to give them a chance.
1. Tentacruel, Mantine and Altera are perfect counters assuming sleep clause is in effect. They can take nasty plot fire blasts and energy balls with ease. And although tentacruel has trouble with Extrasensory, there is a chance that even with Nasty Plot that Extrasensory will only 3-hit KO with max Sp. Def / HP and leftovers.
2. Noctowl and Hypno can switch in on Hypnosis and beat Ninetales 1v1.
3. Ninetails, Rapidash and Flareon are Ninetails counters due to flash fire and resistance to Energy Ball. Flareon can roar/yawn.
4. Probopass can survive Nasty Plotted Fire Blasts
Ninetails has far more counters than swellow, pinsir and hitmonlee as it is, and we're going to give them a chance.
It's not really, there are only two real options and both require Ninetales to have already lost at least 1/3 of its health ...
1. Banette would have to be Sashed and T-Wave 'tales on the first, and Shadow Claw it the second
Adamant 252 ATT Banette vs. Timid 0 HP 0 Defence Ninetales
Shadow Claw = 52% - 61%
Or Banette is reliant on priority moves ...
Adamant 252 ATT CB Banette vs. same Ninetales
Shadow Sneak = 44% - 52%
Sucker Punch = 59% - 69%
I think Clefable deserves testing, but is definitely a candidate for being too strong. Its stats are only average, but they're all decent except Spd, so the surprise value of all its moves will get to you. It is a massive tank, bigger than you'd think in the first place, because it has only one weakness, one that isn't very common (since Close Combat is somewhat rare for UU Pokemon). And then it takes 0 damage whereas other Pokemon take more in the following cases:
- Most Pokemon take 12.5% from Stealth Rock. Some take 6.25%. Steelix takes 3.125%. Many take 25%. Clefable takes 0%.
- Most tanks either die to Toxic, die because Rest forces them to be immobile, or die because their versatility of 2 moves sucks in the case of Sleep Talk. Clefable has 3 moveslots available and then a 50% recovery move, be it Wish or Softboiled, and it doesn't take any damage from Toxic.
- Clefable can Encore, so setting up against it is harder than against many offenseless tankish Pokemon. Thunder Wave is also a great tool for doing this.
And then Clefable surprises the heck out of everyone with a variety between Belly Drum, Calm Mind and Facade abuse while also being a great team support.
- Most Pokemon take 12.5% from Stealth Rock. Some take 6.25%. Steelix takes 3.125%. Many take 25%. Clefable takes 0%.
- Most tanks either die to Toxic, die because Rest forces them to be immobile, or die because their versatility of 2 moves sucks in the case of Sleep Talk. Clefable has 3 moveslots available and then a 50% recovery move, be it Wish or Softboiled, and it doesn't take any damage from Toxic.
- Clefable can Encore, so setting up against it is harder than against many offenseless tankish Pokemon. Thunder Wave is also a great tool for doing this.
And then Clefable surprises the heck out of everyone with a variety between Belly Drum, Calm Mind and Facade abuse while also being a great team support.
There are puh-lenty of pokes and teams that sport CC or any fighting attack for that matter, be it Hitmonlee/chan/top, Pinsir, Primeape, Poliwrath, and random Focus Punchers.
Clefable is the quintessential jack of all trades. It can do nearly everything, but there are usually better options out there. Attacking versions run off its base 70 attack and relatively poor coverage, Calm Mind versions lack STAB, the only thing it excels at is special walling, and even then it competes with Hypno, Grumpig, Meganium, Shuckle and friends. It's good, but I dont believe it's BL material.
I'll agree somewhat with Mekkah here. Clefable is indeed far more powerful than people think. However, without any setup it is actually somewhat weak, even when you pump in defenses. I feel Clefable's primary advantage is Cosmic power, as it is one of the few pokemon who can actually use it very effectively.
Clefable isn't really weak at all IMO. I'm quite an advocate of Clefable, and that thing does wonders for me. It's surprisingly good on the offensive side for me since I run a Life Orb Clefable, which doesn't get any recoil at all.
Plus, it can use a STAB Facade with absolutely no drawbacks. The easiest way is to obviously use Toxic Orb, but if you feel it can just switch in on a Toxic which seems quite prominent in UU on tanks, then it can have Life Orb and rip things apart with it without dying like Swellow, or having very few turns to survive like Ursaring. Although the 70 base attack doesn't seem like much, it gets a free boost with Life Orb with absolutely no drawbacks.
Count in extreme team support in Wish, Encore, Stealth Rock, Status-Taking, Sing, and a whole lot more, it's damn good in UU. I personally don't think it's too strong for UU, but it definitely does need testing, because with my UU team, it's really putting the hurt on things.
Plus, it can use a STAB Facade with absolutely no drawbacks. The easiest way is to obviously use Toxic Orb, but if you feel it can just switch in on a Toxic which seems quite prominent in UU on tanks, then it can have Life Orb and rip things apart with it without dying like Swellow, or having very few turns to survive like Ursaring. Although the 70 base attack doesn't seem like much, it gets a free boost with Life Orb with absolutely no drawbacks.
Count in extreme team support in Wish, Encore, Stealth Rock, Status-Taking, Sing, and a whole lot more, it's damn good in UU. I personally don't think it's too strong for UU, but it definitely does need testing, because with my UU team, it's really putting the hurt on things.
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