DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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I apologize if this has been answered many times already, but will the tier lists be revised with the advent of the Shoddy list? It'll be nearly impossible to tell what is being used in Wi-Fi, but if things like Scizor are being used much more than Celebi, Slowbro, and Rhyperior, then I would guess the BL/OU lists would be changed a bit, assuming that the borderline is still determined by usage over power.
 
Well, Haze does. Roar doesn't, as Leafeon will often pack Roar himself. Also, a lot of Hazers are Water type, and will be met with a swift, Swords Danced Leaf Blade.
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This is the precise reason to use Leafeon over Ninjask. Leafeon will force that Skarmory out before skarm forces it out, and can survive any attack that it attempts.
 
Leafeon doesn't have Speed Boost (or even Agility), which is the main reason to use Ninjask.
 
I seem to have worded my post poorly. Lemme rephrase my post:

This is the only reason to use Leafeon over Ninjask. Leafeon will force that Skarmory out before skarm forces it out, and can survive any attack that it attempts. Ninjask in the non-phazer case is superior to Leafeon.
 
So to round up this discussion regarding the Shoddy usage stats;

Are we now officially considering Froslass (no.53) and Tentacruel (no.54) as OU's or BL's and thus banned from UU play? Will the official tier lists be updates to show this?

And will these lists result in any Pokemon being moved down to BL? Rhyperior is floundering at 56, with Slowbro and Aerodactyl just behind him. Dugtrio and Raikou are even further behind.

So will these Shoddy stats directly influence the Smogon tier list or not?
 
I say it is too early for such a drastic change. If the Tentacruel and Froslass trend continues however, then I think they should be moved up to OU and then banned from UU.
 
I was told to discuss my use of two contested UUs here for argument's sake. My current UU team uses Leafeon and Pinsir, what I have found is as follows:

Leafeon has amazing stats but its movepool limits it so much that it isn't funny. Its best type coverage is Grass+Normal which is totally walled by anything steel type. It's a bit like Tangrowth on the special side, any decent STAB ice or fire special attack is pretty much sure death. I don't keep it in on water types half of the time because they carry ice moves. I kept it in verses a vaporeon aurora beam (yes, he was a noob) and it did about 72% HP damage. Leafeon is a very reliable counter to Quagsire and Gastrodon, but is generally best used as a bulky and speedy BPer. Scyther also destroys it if he's allowed in UU, it destroys pretty much anything it wants after a SD. Leafeon's abysmal coverage and only decent speed ensures that even a fully set up leafeon is fairly easily countered compared to even other UU setups. I have to say though, if his movepool didn't consist of two decent physical moves with 0 synergy this would be OU material. By the way, most Leafeons do not carry return so anything with a grass resist generally works as a sound defense. The main reason to use leafeon over ninjask is that while it does not pass speed, it will survive to baton pass multiple times rather being a one trick worthless pony like Ninjask.


Good counters: Pinsir, Scyther, Aggron (provided it hasn't set up too much), Torkoal, Magnetric (provided it is not set up it's easy to switch in on SD/Leaf Blade), anything with roar to stop the baton pass buggery.

Pinsir is like heracross lite, problem is he is x2 SR weak (which is pretty bad in UU), his bug type attack is 25% weaker than Megahorn and his close combat is not STABed. Scarfed versions are easily countered by Torkoal with his fire attacks and burns (remember, no guts ability which ruins his status absorbing potential), Aggron, anything bulky with somthing that will hit SE will suffice. Banded versions can be pretty easily outsped and killed by anything with a flying, rock, or fire attack (common types in UU).

Good counters: Torkoal, Aggron, any status user that can take a hit (rotom works well if it can swtich in on a scissor), Scyther and Magnetric destroy the slower CB versions although maggie has problems switching in.
 
Leafeon has amazing stats but its movepool limits it so much that it isn't funny. Its best type coverage is Grass+Normal which is totally walled by anything steel type.
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And just how many UU Steel types are there that actually resist Grass? I don't know of any (I'm pretty sure Mawile is NU), therefore that argument doesn't really help this discussion on its power in UU.

Good counters: Pinsir, Scyther, Aggron (provided it hasn't set up too much), Torkoal, Magnetric (provided it is not set up it's easy to switch in on SD/Leaf Blade), anything with roar to stop the baton pass buggery.
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The only thing on that list I fully agree with is Torkoal. Even a max HP/Def Aggron can be 2HKO'd by a SD/LO Leaf Blade from Jolly Leafeon. Adamant versions are almost guaranteed to do so, not to mention the decent crit chance. The best Aggron does back is Fire Blast off a crappy 157 Sp. Atk which doesn't come close to an OHKO. Pinsir is slower, SR weak, and despite its good defense doesn't take SD Returns or Aerial Aces off that kind of Attack too well. And lol at Scyther and Manectric. Scyther takes 50% from Stealth Rock and has mediocre defense at best, whilst Manectric's defense is so awful that it will be taking huge damage from Leaf Blade whatever the EV setup. As for Roar to prevent BP, name one Pokemon with a faster Roar than Leafeon that can take a SD Leaf Blade comfortably?

Pinsir is like heracross lite, problem is he is x2 SR weak (which is pretty bad in UU)
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Almost every 'counter' you've mentioned for both these Pokemon are SR weak too, which is worse for them than Pinsir as they are the ones that have to repeatedly switch in and take a hit.

Scarfed versions are easily countered by Torkoal with his fire attacks and burns (remember, no guts ability which ruins his status absorbing potential), Aggron, anything bulky with somthing that will hit SE will suffice. Banded versions can be pretty easily outsped and killed by anything with a flying, rock, or fire attack (common types in UU).

Good counters: Torkoal, Aggron, any status user that can take a hit (rotom works well if it can swtich in on a scissor), Scyther and Magnetric destroy the slower CB versions although maggie has problems switching in.
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And what about the SD version? Pinsir rapes both Torkoal and Aggron with Earthquake after a SD, so they are definitely not counters. Rotom also has problems switching in to it if it is using Mold Breaker as its ability. Scyther also risks being killed on the switch in due to Stone Edge. Those kind of Pokemon can only threaten Pinsir on a revenge kill situation, but they can't stop Pinsir switching out.
 
Interestingly enough, Leafeon is stopped cold by Magcargo since she only carries Grass/Normal. His 30% burn chance will absolutely ruin her while he can Lava Plume or Recover to make her life hard.

Pinsir's EQ is his biggest asset and whiffs on fliers along with his resisted Fight and Bug. The only chance he has to hurt fliers is with Stone Edge, so send in something like Altaria, Pelipper, or Drifblim that can take that one attack. If 3/4 of his attacks do virtually nothing and they can survive the other one, he will find himself stymied before long.

Likewise, other types find themselves in these odd situations where they can take all but one or two of his attacks.

This is the same problem that came up with CBCross in ADV. There was no one "counter" but there were a multitude of pokemon that could take 2 or 3 of his attacks and stall him with prediction.

Or you could just look at it this way:
He has a 1/4 chance to dent your flier.
He has a 1/4 chance to dent your steel.
He can hit fighters 2/4 of the time.
He can hurt grass 1/4 of the time and hit it 2/4 of the time.

There is enough room for clever prediction since he pretty much dies to any good special fire or flying.


As soon as you SD, you've taken away the chance that you can hit them hard on the switch along with the type coverage you had before.
If you drop EQ, steels/fires walk all over you.
If you drop SE, fliers walk all over you.
If you drop CC, bulky normal types and steels come right in.
If you drop X-S, grass types can come in.

The sooner they find out which attack you dropped, the harder you get walled. To be honest, Altaria probably does the best job in UU "stopping" Pinsir. She can Roost in your face over and over again until you run out of Stone Edges, Flamethrower or Draco Meteor your ass back to the pokeball, or just Haze off your stat-boosts.


As soon as we get out of UU, Pinsir gets devastated by Skarms of course. Hippo can also just sit in front of him and laugh along with Cress (who can take X-scissors well enough).

He's a POWERFUL UU, but with a lack of fight STAB and Megahorn, he's just not Heracross.
 
Interestingly enough, Leafeon is stopped cold by Magcargo since she only carries Grass/Normal. His 30% burn chance will absolutely ruin her while he can Lava Plume or Recover to make her life hard.
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Magcargo is also half-Rock, and thus takes Leaf Blade neutrally. If Magcargo switches in to try and wall it (assuming max 304/372 HP/Defense, it risks one of two plausible scenarios:

1. Switches in on Stealth Rock as Leafeon Swords Dances. After Lefties recovery has 247 HP. Leafeon is running Life Orb max Attack and speed ready to sweep with Leaf Blade and Return, possibly X-Scissor too for bulky grasses, but that isn't important. In this situation, even Jolly variants can OHKO Magcargo. Relying on 30% burn, dubious as it already is, is no good if you're going to die from the attack anyway, it just carries the possibility of preventing the all-out sweep.

2. Again, switches on SR, Leafeon SDs, end of turn 1 with 247 HP. Leafeon is now a bulky BPer ready to pass its Swords Dance to Rapidash to absorb the fire move and cripple Magcargo with HP Ground and/or Hypnosis, then take some stopping with its enormous power.

Either way, Magcargo cannot be said to be a good counter. Torkoal works despite the SR weak as it resists Leaf Blade and doesn't have any crippling 4x weaknesses to be exploited by any BP recipients, although it may still encounter some problems.
 
I knew about the typing, he just happens to have pretty great defense. Max/max Leafeon has only a mediocre chance of OHKOing max/max Magcargo after SR and SD and his leftovers.

I'll admit he can't do a whole lot about her SDing in his face though other than Lava Plumes or Yawning her out. Without SR, he gets at least one shot at taking out half her life and burning her with Lava Plume.

I've been thinking more about how poor Grass is for physical attacking and there are so many type resistances yet so few UU's have the types needed. It's like a conspiracy saying "Attack with Grass in UU!" =P

In OU, physical grass is worthless. In UU, physical grass is powerhouse. Very odd.
 
I can't believe Vileplume hasn't been mentioned as a viable Leafeon counter.

- 4x Grass Resist
- Nearly 300 defence means even an Adamant 252 attack Leafeon (note:rarely seen) with a Swords Dance does only 58-69% with Aerial Ace.
- STAB Sludge Bomb from 100 base SpA OHKOs Leafeon.
- Reliable recovery move.
- Capable of hitting a BP recipient with Sleep Powder or Stun Spore.

Unfortunately, 'Plume and 'Koal are the only UU Pokemon I would really class as Leafeon counters (in the respect that they can wall him, kill him, and prevent a BP in some way). However, Vileplume is a little more dangerous, because unlike Yawn, Sleep Powder could miss against the BP recipient.
 
I didn't mention her because a max/max SD Leafeon against a max/max Vileplume does like 70% from Return.
She could work, but who runs a maxhp/maxdef Vileplume?
 
Pnuema, that's why you switch in as Leafeon Swords Dances, not after he has done so. Why would you wait until he's all set up before deciding to break out your counter? If you switch 'Plume in on the SD, Leafeon has two options. Use Return/AA and die a horrible death, or BP and risk going to sleep.

And if a max Attack SD Aerial Ace (120BP) does a maximum of 69%, then I'd like to see the calculations that show Return (102BP) to do 70%.
 
or BP and risk going to sleep.
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Assuming you are max/max and haven't taken more than 25% damage.
That's why it concerns me, it's not like I'm not aware that Vileplume comes in on the SD and can force him out, I'm more worried that Vileplume will not be at max life.
 
I've begun testing a lot of the iffy guys with SiriusBlack on Shoddybattle. So far, Swellow seems to be the hardest one to deal with. Granted, Sirius isn't using many rock pokemon, but Aggron was easily stopped by switching to Claydol (earth power).

I'd imagine more testing is necessary. Swellow makes a great status absorber with Toxic Orb, and a great hit and run pokemon with GUTS U-Turn. With the monsterous 125 base speed, it probably can outrun a few scarfed pokemon.

Its still a little early for me to say ban him though. But Swellow is a beast, OHKOing his attack spread Kingler with facade.
 
Yeah, no surprises there. Swellow basically forces the opponent to pack a Rock or Steel (or both). And if they don't then they're gonna be taking a lot of damage as Swellow is one of the hardest hitters on the game. It could overcentralise the metagame slightly, but really...there are so many great counters for it. Logically speaking, he is easy to counter in the UU environment, because any worthy UU physical wall lols at it, but U-Turn allows him to lol straight back at them. If only one of them learned Pursuit, eh?

Sudowoodo could be fun...Swellow will always try to U-Turn out, which opens him up for a Sucker Punch. Shame he doesn't take repeated Facades as well as the others.
 
Obi said:
Ghosts exist in UU, too, which can switch into Facade or something like HP Fighting.
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Especially Rotom, as it also resists Brave Bird. With a Timid nature, Rotom can both carry enough bulk to survive two Brave Birds and threaten to outrun and kill with Choice Scarf, which is a viable option as it can Trick the scarf onto something in addition to Thunder Wave/Will-o-wisp which can really screw over certain pokes.

Will people be using HP Fighting on Swellow now that is a Special Attack?
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Depends on how they intend to use it. If there is a spare slot then Hidden Power is very useful to hit common counters for 4x damage on their weaker defense. Fighting is useful for 2HKOing Aggron, but Grass is also an option for Golem and the various Water/Rock types in UU. A lot of people like to use U-Turn however, in which case there is no spare slot.
 
Relicanth Should be BL imo, No recoil Head smash or Double power/speed physical aqua tail are great assets, he can take a stab EQ from Gastrodon/possibly Quaggy, and is an awesome Rest Talker with Aqua Tail and Head Smash.
 
Course, Swellow's HP Fighting won't even 2-hit Probopass, so I'd imagine that Probopass is a 100% counter to Swellow.

EDIT: Anyone wanna organize a UU test tournament? A small tourny of just 8 people should be able to be done in a single night, while giving us a significant feel of the current UU metagame. We have a huge list of pokemon in the "testing" phase, and I think it is about time we actually tested them out. Basically, this will be an "Alpha" phase test.

We then debate for another week, and then hold another 8 man tournament. Etc. etc. till we settle down a decent metagame.
 
Count me in. We can just make a thread with all the logs posted assuming we're not too embarrassed to show off our skills (or lack thereof).
 
I would, but it depends on when you wanted to do it as I'm moving house next week so I don't know when I'll be able to get online ...
 
Anyone wanna organize a UU test tournament? A small tourny of just 8 people should be able to be done in a single night, while giving us a significant feel of the current UU metagame.
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Sounds like a pretty good idea to me.

As for Swellow...it's true that it absolutely wrecks most UU teams that don't have a good counter for it, but there are enough pokemon that can very solidly counter it (Probopass, Bastidon, Omastar) and the fact that it's slowly killing itself by coming into play (SR just hastens the process) mean that it isn't too overpowered, IMO. Random priority moves/scarfs ruin it, as well.

Did we ever talk about Relicanth at all? STAB Head Smash is obscenely powerful, but Quagsire and Gastrodon can take it's attacks without too much trouble (max/max Gastro takes 36.15% - 42.49% from a CB Double-edge) since it's attack base is just 90, and it is pretty slow.
 
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