Resource Monotype USM Viability Rankings

[smub]

Haven't done some nominations in a while, so let's go

Jirachi: B=>A (Steel)

Jirachi builds have been seeing some solid tournament success as of late, and it's not hard to see why. Calm Mind sets in particular prove to be an extremely helpful asset against balance types that Steel tends to have a hard time with, specifically Water, Flying, and Poison. The most common set for it is the Substitute+Calm Mind set, which finds some good setup opportunities against passive Pokemon like Toxapex, Mantine, and Mega Venusaur, as well as gaining setup opportunities by forcing out Pokemon like Nidoking and Gyarados. While this set has definitely been the most successful, I'd also like to talk about the 3 Attacks set with Psychium Z. In this set, Substitute is replaced with Hidden Power Ice as a means of hitting Gliscor and non-Scarf Landorus-T. A +1 Shattered Psyche can break past certain defensive checks like Zapdos, Swampert, and more, although some require Spikes chip to remove. Here are some calcs:

Shattered Psyche calcs

+1 252 SpA Jirachi Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Swampert-Mega: 328-387 (81.1 - 95.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after 2 layers of Spikes
+1 252 SpA Jirachi Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Swampert: 388-457 (96 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Jirachi Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 188 SpD Zapdos: 321-378 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Jirachi Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Azumarill: 297-349 (73.5 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock, 2 layers of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

And here are some replays:

Replays

Vs Poison (MWP): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-688517186
Vs Water (MWP): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-695539626
Vs Water again: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-696284426
Vs Flying: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-696341261
Vs Water for the 3rd time: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-696352926

Overall, because of this solid role that Jirachi is able to fill, I think it's worthy of A rank on Steel

Sample sets

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind
- Substitute

Jirachi @ Psychium Z
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Calm Mind

Froslass: B=>C (Ice)

Froslass's main niche was as a lead Spikes setter, with nice utility such as Taunt and Destiny Bond, and especially its Fighting immunity. However, Fighting as a whole has completely dropped off this generation, making its Fighting immunity a much less valuable asset. It isn't even that consistent against a few of the current relevant Fighting-types. Some examples being Heracross and Mega Gallade, where Heracross can very easily trap it with Pursuit, while it's forced to risk a speed tie against Mega Gallade. There's also its incredibly lacking offensive presence to take into account, not being able to KO any relevant Psychic-type with a Shadow Ball. Lastly, it fails to provide similar value to that of its fellow B ranks, Walrein and Rotom-Frost, both of which have had increased viability since the start of USUM. Walrein provides an incredibly helpful Scarf Blacephalon check for more offensive Ice teams, while Rotom-Frost's access to Defog grants the type with an extra hazard remover with an immunity to all grounded hazards and the ability to pivot with Volt Switch. Froslass just doesn't provide very much for Ice in the current metagame, which is why it should drop to C rank.

 

[Vid]

Here's the new update

Update

Water

Azumarill B--->A

Toxapex A--->S

Rotom-W B--->A
Flying

Togekiss A--->C

Mega Aerodactyl C--->B

Landorus S--->A

Thundurus B--->C

Tornadus-T D--->C
Bug

Buzzwole A--->B
Fairy

Ribombee A--->B

Mimikyu C--->B
Dragon

Kommo-o B--->A
Rock

Shuckle A--->S
Electric

Magnezone B--->A

Mega Manectric C--->B
Fire

Mega Charizard Y S--->A

Marowak-Alola B---->C

Volcanion B---->C

Darmanitan C--->D

Entei C---->D

Talonflame D--->Unranked

Victini A---->B
Ground

Landorus-T A--->B

Mamoswine A--->B
Psychic

Metagross Unranked--->C

Latias D--->B

Mega Gardevoir B--->C
Steel

Stakataka A--->B

Lucario D--->C

Doublade C--->D

Magneton D--->Unranked
Ice

Lapras A--->B

Froslass B--->C
Grass

Serperior B--->C
Poison

Drapion C--->Unranked

 

[TechNettium]

I just started playing this last november so take my opinions with a grain of salt

Yanmega C => B

With one protect Yanmega outspeeds just about everything, especially if sticky web is active, and even if he doesnt out speed them then he will the next turn. With life orb a STAB Bug Buzz packs a hell of a punch and will probably KO anything Bug is effective against and seiriously damage anything Bug is neutral against, it also does an acceptable amount of damage to anything that resists it. With this being said Yanmega does have a couple of traits that hold it back. Firstly like alot of pokemon in its archetype it cant really take a hit well, and being Bug-Flying isnt helping it very much. It also lacks access to coverage moves. The best its got for flying STAB is Air Slash, other than that the only other offensive moves that it could use are Shadow Ball and Psychic, which I dont think do much for it.

Shuckle B => A

Shuckle is am great setter IMO. It has access to Stealth Rock and Sticky Web, great defence and special defence amd decent typing. With mental herb to prevent taunt and Shuckles stellar defences I dont see how you wouldnt beable take youre first turn laying down whatever you want. Shuckle can also run Final Gambit or Toxic so it has something to do when its done setting

Im wide open to criticism. Ive got a lot to learn and im betting I missed some details so be as honest as you'd like to be

 

[Havens]

I just started playing this last november so take my opinions with a grain of salt

Yanmega C => B

With one protect Yanmega outspeeds just about everything, especially if sticky web is active, and even if he doesnt out speed them then he will the next turn. With life orb a STAB Bug Buzz packs a hell of a punch and will probably KO anything Bug is effective against and seiriously damage anything Bug is neutral against, it also does an acceptable amount of damage to anything that resists it. With this being said Yanmega does have a couple of traits that hold it back. Firstly like alot of pokemon in its archetype it cant really take a hit well, and being Bug-Flying isnt helping it very much. It also lacks access to coverage moves. The best its got for flying STAB is Air Slash, other than that the only other offensive moves that it could use are Shadow Ball and Psychic, which I dont think do much for it.

Shuckle B => A

Shuckle is am great setter IMO. It has access to Stealth Rock and Sticky Web, great defence and special defence amd decent typing. With mental herb to prevent taunt and Shuckles stellar defences I dont see how you wouldnt beable take youre first turn laying down whatever you want. Shuckle can also run Final Gambit or Toxic so it has something to do when its done setting

Im wide open to criticism. Ive got a lot to learn and im betting I missed some details so be as honest as you'd like to be

Welcome to the VR! Not to minimod, but please include the type you're nominating it for next time (i.e. Shuckle/Yanmega on Bug or whatnot)

Shuckle was just upgraded to S rank on Rock because of its lead setting ability. In terms of Bug, its setting is outclassed by Galvantula and Armaldo, that not only function as setters, but check quite a bit of its weaknesses reliably; in Armaldo's case, it not only can set rocks, but can also Rapid Spin hazards away as well, something that Shuckle doesn't really have. I won't delve much into Yanmega, but Speed Boost w/ a relatively limited movepool and piss poor defenses make it in such a way where its breaking potential is blatantly walled by many defensive mons (chansey, celesteela, toxapex, Heatran, etc.) The better option to break through teams with that same typing is Mega Pinsir.

Aside from that, I just would like some clarifications on the recent VR update: Why did Lando-I (Flying) drop and Latias surge to B (Psychic)? Just curious.

 

[Eien]

Welcome to the VR! Not to minimod, but please include the type you're nominating it for next time (i.e. Shuckle/Yanmega on Bug or whatnot)

Shuckle was just upgraded to S rank on Rock because of its lead setting ability. In terms of Bug, its setting is outclassed by Galvantula and Armaldo, that not only function as setters, but check quite a bit of its weaknesses reliably; in Armaldo's case, it not only can set rocks, but can also Rapid Spin hazards away as well, something that Shuckle doesn't really have. I won't delve much into Yanmega, but Speed Boost w/ a relatively limited movepool and piss poor defenses make it in such a way where its breaking potential is blatantly walled by many defensive mons (chansey, celesteela, toxapex, Heatran, etc.) The better option to break through teams with that same typing is Mega Pinsir.

Aside from that, I just would like some clarifications on the recent VR update: Why did Lando-I (Flying) drop and Latias surge to B (Psychic)? Just curious.

The one reason for why Landorus was dropped to A is the same reason that Landorus-T was A in ORAS. The other Landorus forme is simply better. Landorus is still a fantastic option that you should build with and prepare for, but we wanted the VR to reflect the proper opportunity cost for using Landorus, which is that you cannot use the forme that is ranked higher.

Latias was bumped up significantly for the utility it can provide Psychic teams. From team preview, unless you're using a Mega Gallade team, it is uncertain which Pokemon is your Mega Evolution, which is always a helpful knowledge advantage. In actual play, it's a Choice Scarf user that brings both Defog and Healing Wish; Healing Wish is obviously a very powerful support move, and it's the most viable user of it. If Latias is taking on the Choice Scarf and Defogger roles, you're free to use different combinations of Latios and Victini sets that you normally wouldn't be able to. Of course, using both Latias and Latios means you'll need to build your team to safeguard against Fairy and it's very much a Pokemon that enables other Pokemon rather than a standalone threat. As a result, we felt it fit well into the B ranking.

 

[Breeze Sea]

Hmm I’m mainly wondering why mega manetric rose to B on electric; Because more mons get defog so electric is less constricted for team comp?

 

[Rei]

Pretty sure its because of its Mega ability intimidate and being able to knock out boosts from set up mons with intimidate. Rotom-Wash can be ran as the defogger now since of USUM, which means Zapdos doesn't always have to be ran on more offense Electric. Manectric-Mega can also run HP ice, which can kill Dragonite and helps with the Dragon matchup while also freeing up a slot on Raichu-Alola for running another move that the team may need. Manectric-Mega can also run both HP ice and Flamethrower/Overheat, something that Magnezone cannot. It also allows Tapu Koko to run z-wild charge or Choice Band.

 

[TechNettium]

Welcome to the VR! Not to minimod, but please include the type you're nominating it for next time (i.e. Shuckle/Yanmega on Bug or whatnot)

Shuckle was just upgraded to S rank on Rock because of its lead setting ability. In terms of Bug, its setting is outclassed by Galvantula and Armaldo, that not only function as setters, but check quite a bit of its weaknesses reliably; in Armaldo's case, it not only can set rocks, but can also Rapid Spin hazards away as well, something that Shuckle doesn't really have. I won't delve much into Yanmega, but Speed Boost w/ a relatively limited movepool and piss poor defenses make it in such a way where its breaking potential is blatantly walled by many defensive mons (chansey, celesteela, toxapex, Heatran, etc.) The better option to break through teams with that same typing is Mega Pinsir.

Aside from that, I just would like some clarifications on the recent VR update: Why did Lando-I (Flying) drop and Latias surge to B (Psychic)? Just curious.

Yup, that makes sense. Next time I'll make sure to format a post properly. Thanks for responding!

 

[TechNettium]

Here's something I thought I should share

Snorlax C => A

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that the reason that Snorlax is C tier in Normal is that it's outclassed by Chansey as a wall. I think that Snorlax might actually be on par with Chansey and even better in some situations. Snorlax already has a great special defense, and its physical defense can be boosted with Curse. With Gluttony, Figy berry and Recycle It can reliably heal quite well. It puts its boosted attack from curse to good use with Earthquake and STAB return, allowing to get a KO after it tanks a hit.

Now that I've explained what it does I'll show some direct comparison between Chansey and Snorlax. Basically what I've done below is taken key match-ups that they'll both encounter being Normal-type walls.

Terrakion:
Close Combat vs Snor (no Curse): OHKO
Close Combat vs Snor (one Curse): Lives with low health
Close Combat vs Chan: Lives with low health

Mega Gallade:
Close Combat vs Snor (no Curse): OHKO
Close Combat vs Snor (one Curse): lives with low health
Close Combat vs Chan: lives with very low health

Keldeo with Choice Specs:
Secret Sword vs Snor: lives with low health
Secret Sword vs Chan: lives with low health


I am aware of other Fighting-type wall breakers but I feel like these are the most prevalent and effective of the bunch. If you disagree then please be sure to tell me why as I'd like to know. I also chose not to include other moves that these Pokemon could be packing since the moves that I listed are the ones most effective against the walls in question. Anyway, with that out of the way, I'll talk about what I personally make out of these match-ups. As you can see Snorlax usually dies without having boosted up with Curse whilst Chansey can tank without stat changes, however, I think that Snorlax does better in these match-ups regardless. All you need is one Curse, then you can tank Close Combat, heal with Figy Berry and hit them back with a boosted Earthquake or STAB Return all in one turn. All Chansey can do in these match-ups is sacrifice herself to land a Seismic Toss or a Toxic or heal back up with Soft-Boiled, essentially wasting a turn since you'll just get hit right back next turn. Also, Chansey almost useless against Ghost, having no way to harm them except Toxic, which Gengar (a Ghost staple) is immune to anyway, meanwhile Snorlax can harm them with Earthquake (which is notably super-effective against Gengar).

There are things that I admit Chansey does better than Snorlax. Defog is a problem for Snorlax and isn't for Chansey. Chansey also handles status conditions very well with natural cure. Snorlax also has to boost up with Curse when Chansey doesn't have to do anything, but Snorlax is beefy enough where if you send him in at the right time he has no problem boosting then. With all this being said if what I say is accurate (which it might not be, I'm no veteran) then Snorlax deserves etleased A-tier if Chansey deserves S-tier


Unrelated note: I just wrote a 500-word essay on why I think a fictional creature is good in a fictional game. Why do I do this to myself and why do I have a C in English?

 

[Escavalier Royale]

Here's something I thought I should share

Snorlax C => A

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that the reason that Snorlax is C tier in Normal is that it's outclassed by Chansey as a wall. I think that Snorlax might actually be on par with Chansey and even better in some situations. Snorlax already has a great special defense, and its physical defense can be boosted with Curse. With Gluttony, Figy berry and Recycle It can reliably heal quite well. It puts its boosted attack from curse to good use with Earthquake and STAB return, allowing to get a KO after it tanks a hit.

Now that I've explained what it does I'll show some direct comparison between Chansey and Snorlax. Basically what I've done below is taken key match-ups that they'll both encounter being Normal-type walls.

Terrakion:
Close Combat vs Snor (no Curse): OHKO
Close Combat vs Snor (one Curse): Lives with low health
Close Combat vs Chan: Lives with low health

Mega Gallade:
Close Combat vs Snor (no Curse): OHKO
Close Combat vs Snor (one Curse): lives with low health
Close Combat vs Chan: lives with very low health

Keldeo with Choice Specs:
Secret Sword vs Snor: lives with low health
Secret Sword vs Chan: lives with low health


I am aware of other Fighting-type wall breakers but I feel like these are the most prevalent and effective of the bunch. If you disagree then please be sure to tell me why as I'd like to know. I also chose not to include other moves that these Pokemon could be packing since the moves that I listed are the ones most effective against the walls in question. Anyway, with that out of the way, I'll talk about what I personally make out of these match-ups. As you can see Snorlax usually dies without having boosted up with Curse whilst Chansey can tank without stat changes, however, I think that Snorlax does better in these match-ups regardless. All you need is one Curse, then you can tank Close Combat, heal with Figy Berry and hit them back with a boosted Earthquake or STAB Return all in one turn. All Chansey can do in these match-ups is sacrifice herself to land a Seismic Toss or a Toxic or heal back up with Soft-Boiled, essentially wasting a turn since you'll just get hit right back next turn. Also, Chansey almost useless against Ghost, having no way to harm them except Toxic, which Gengar (a Ghost staple) is immune to anyway, meanwhile Snorlax can harm them with Earthquake (which is notably super-effective against Gengar).

There are things that I admit Chansey does better than Snorlax. Defog is a problem for Snorlax and isn't for Chansey. Chansey also handles status conditions very well with natural cure. Snorlax also has to boost up with Curse when Chansey doesn't have to do anything, but Snorlax is beefy enough where if you send him in at the right time he has no problem boosting then. With all this being said if what I say is accurate (which it might not be, I'm no veteran) then Snorlax deserves etleased A-tier if Chansey deserves S-tier


Unrelated note: I just wrote a 500-word essay on why I think a fictional creature is good in a fictional game. Why do I do this to myself and why do I have a C in English?

Okay, first I want to say that I'm not a particular expert on using Normal.
Basically, comparing Chansey to Snorlax is pretty pointless because Snorlax isn't meant to be a wall. It's meant to be a bulky setup sweeper.

Furthermore, going from C to A is a pretty drastic change. Snorlax is decent as a Curse sweeper, but that's it. Just decent. The thing doesn't get Slack Off (why GF) so it's prone to getting worn down, especially since running Gluttony means you have to forgo Thick Fat.

Moreover, it's hard to justify using a teamslot on it. The basically necessary Eviolite core takes up 2 of the 6 spots already. Then comes your Mega, most likely Lopunny, and half of your slots are already used up. 90% of the time one of those last three slots goes to Staraptor to deal with the Fighting weakness. Then you have two slots left.
You will likely want to use PorygonZ as a sweeper and Ditto as a set-up counter. Both of these Pokémon help in important matchups, with Ditto putting a lot of pressure on Dragon (Mega Altaria can't set up safely) and PorygonZ just being a great sweeper for the type in general. Running Snorlax means you have to forego either of these two (I have experienced that foregoing Staraptor is a bad idea) which is pretty hard. That's not even taking into account other Pokémon you can use in those last slots, like Diggersby and the less common Bewear, who help in the Steel matchup and give Snorlax even more competition. Snorlax is practically dead weight in the Fighting matchup too.

Tl;dr, Snorlax is nowhere near as beneficial to the type as the other A-ranks. Imo it should stay C.

Edit: forgot to mention that a good player will make sure that Chansey never takes on Terrakion or Gallade, that's Porygon2's job in Terrakion's case and Staraptor's job in Gallade's case.

Also, welcome to Monotype! I like the interest you show for it.

 

[TechNettium]

Okay, first I want to say that I'm not a particular expert on using Normal.
Basically, comparing Chansey to Snorlax is pretty pointless because Snorlax isn't meant to be a wall. It's meant to be a bulky setup sweeper.

Furthermore, going from C to A is a pretty drastic change. Snorlax is decent as a Curse sweeper, but that's it. Just decent. The thing doesn't get Slack Off (why GF) so it's prone to getting worn down, especially since running Gluttony means you have to forgo Thick Fat.

Moreover, it's hard to justify using a teamslot on it. The basically necessary Eviolite core takes up 2 of the 6 spots already. Then comes your Mega, most likely Lopunny, and half of your slots are already used up. 90% of the time one of those last three slots goes to Staraptor to deal with the Fighting weakness. Then you have two slots left.
You will likely want to use PorygonZ as a sweeper and Ditto as a set-up counter. Both of these Pokémon help in important matchups, with Ditto putting a lot of pressure on Dragon (Mega Altaria can't set up safely) and PorygonZ just being a great sweeper for the type in general. Running Snorlax means you have to forego either of these two (I have experienced that foregoing Staraptor is a bad idea) which is pretty hard. That's not even taking into account other Pokémon you can use in those last slots, like Diggersby and the less common Bewear, who help in the Steel matchup and give Snorlax even more competition. Snorlax is practically dead weight in the Fighting matchup too.

Tl;dr, Snorlax is nowhere near as beneficial to the type as the other A-ranks. Imo it should stay C.

Edit: forgot to mention that a good player will make sure that Chansey never takes on Terrakion or Gallade, that's Porygon2's job in Terrakion's case and Staraptor's job in Gallade's case.

Also, welcome to Monotype! I like the interest you show for it.

I think you didn't quite catch the point I was trying to make, which is, by all means, my fault and not your's.

Essentially the point I was attempting to make with comparing Chansey to Snorlax is that Snorlax can do what Chansey can to an extent and what I was trying to show with the match-up comparisons is that Snorlax can also function as a reliable check to Pokemon dangerous to Normal types. Since Snorlax is similar to Chansey, and Chansey is S-tier I think would make sense to have Snorlax is A-tier.

I hope that made more sense than last time. As always any feedback is appreciated and thanks for replying!

 

[mushamu]

I think you didn't quite catch the point I was trying to make, which is, by all means, my fault and not your's.

Essentially the point I was attempting to make with comparing Chansey to Snorlax is that Snorlax can do what Chansey can to an extent and what I was trying to show with the match-up comparisons is that Snorlax can also function as a reliable check to Pokemon dangerous to Normal types. Since Snorlax is similar to Chansey, and Chansey is S-tier I think would make sense to have Snorlax is A-tier.

I hope that made more sense than last time. As always any feedback is appreciated and thanks for replying!

Snorlax doesn't provide as much for the team as Chansey does. Chansey, as you know, gets good utility moves such as Stealth Rock and Softboiled that make it overall more consistent than Snorlax as a tank, as Snorlax can't set rocks or heal itself since it doesn't get any notable recovery moves other than rest, which can be a bit situational at times and leaves Snorlax as set up bait. As Escavalier Royale said, Normal teams are very tight on teamslots, having the eviolite core + staraptor + mega, and that leaves you room for your breakers, meloetta diggersby and porygon z, or ditto. Because of this I disagree with Snorlax rising to A and being C ranked reflects that it does have a niche on normal as a curse sweeper.

 

[TechNettium]

Snorlax doesn't provide as much for the team as Chansey does. Chansey, as you know, gets good utility moves such as Stealth Rock and Softboiled that make it overall more consistent than Snorlax as a tank, as Snorlax can't set rocks or heal itself since it doesn't get any notable recovery moves other than rest, which can be a bit situational at times and leaves Snorlax as set up bait. As Escavalier Royale said, Normal teams are very tight on teamslots, having the eviolite core + staraptor + mega, and that leaves you room for your breakers, meloetta diggersby and porygon z, or ditto. Because of this I disagree with Snorlax rising to A and being C ranked reflects that it does have a niche on normal as a curse sweeper.

For healing, Snorlax has Figy berry in tandem with Recycle and Gluttony. As for the limited team slots in Normal, Snorlax's ability to tank a STAB Close Combat arguably makes it a bulkier alternative to Staraptor. Because of its bulk, it could also maybe take Porygon2's place as well. With this being said I do now believe that I overrated Snorlax by overestimating how close in function Chansey and Snorlax can be. With all this being said my opinion has now changed to:

Snorlax C => B

 

[Rei]

For healing, Snorlax has Figy berry in tandem with Recycle and Gluttony. As for the limited team slots in Normal, Snorlax's ability to tank a STAB Close Combat arguably makes it a bulkier alternative to Staraptor. Because of its bulk, it could also maybe take Porygon2's place as well. With this being said I do now believe that I overrated Snorlax by overestimating how close in function Chansey and Snorlax can be. With all this being said my opinion has now changed to:

Snorlax C => B

Staraptor is used for Defog and for its ability intimidate. Porygon2 is irreplaceable on Normal due to bulk + boltbeam coverage. You are just thinking the fighting mu, which is not used that much in the current meta and not the whole picture. Snorlax belongs at C due to its niche and really I only see it replacing Diggersby, but you lose out on its raw power that Diggersby has.

 

[TechNettium]

Staraptor is used for Defog and for its ability intimidate. Porygon2 is irreplaceable on Normal due to bulk + boltbeam coverage. You are just thinking the fighting mu, which is not used that much in the current meta and not the whole picture. Snorlax belongs at C due to its niche and really I only see it replacing Diggersby, but you lose out on its raw power that Diggersby has.

Idk. I've heard plenty of counter-arguments against Snorlax and I'm still not quite convinced. This just seems like it will be one of those controversial opinions that people have where they just can't be convinced otherwise :/. I assume that as I play more and gain more experience my opinion will gradually change. Thanks for replying!

 

[Havens]

Idk. I've heard plenty of counter-arguments against Snorlax and I'm still not quite convinced. This just seems like it will be one of those controversial opinions that people have where they just can't be convinced otherwise :/. I assume that as I play more and gain more experience my opinion will gradually change. Thanks for replying!

I wouldn't say so much that it's controversial, but rather, misguiding. From what I can gather, it seems you have the perception that because Chansey/P2 and Snorlax have similar stats and therefore have similar functions. That's not the case. The reason why Chansey and p2 are as good as they are, is because of their powerful stats in tandem with Eviolite, paired with consistently reliable recovery and utility options to cover various weaknesses. Chansey is the best special wall in the meta, being able to consistently wall the games best Special Attackers in Greninja, Tapu Koko, Volcarona, Latios, and so much more. Stealth Rock being the best hazard and Seismic Toss being able to chip foes at a fixed amount make it so that this is a mon that cannot be replaced. Porygon2 on the other hand is like Chansey, but rather one of the better Physically Defensive walls in the game, with the ability to take a relatively more offensive apporach to its defense, having Foul Play to prevent physical setup sweepers from becoming too powerful, and options like BoltBeam to provide consistent damage and status. Both have reliable recovery and utility that is a definite must on any sort of Normal team, and Snorlax can't really do anything to the extent that either of the two can. Even with something like Figy Berry + Recycle, you'd not only sacrifice a moveslot just for Recycle, but there's a chance that it becomes useless once the item gets knocked off (Yes, Knocked off items cannot be Recycled.)

Please however, don't let us dissuade you from posting! This is all a learning experience and thank you for getting to learn more about our community and how the tier works.

 

[TechNettium]

I wouldn't say so much that it's controversial, but rather, misguiding. From what I can gather, it seems you have the perception that because Chansey/P2 and Snorlax have similar stats and therefore have similar functions. That's not the case. The reason why Chansey and p2 are as good as they are, is because of their powerful stats in tandem with Eviolite, paired with consistently reliable recovery and utility options to cover various weaknesses. Chansey is the best special wall in the meta, being able to consistently wall the games best Special Attackers in Greninja, Tapu Koko, Volcarona, Latios, and so much more. Stealth Rock being the best hazard and Seismic Toss being able to chip foes at a fixed amount make it so that this is a mon that cannot be replaced. Porygon2 on the other hand is like Chansey, but rather one of the better Physically Defensive walls in the game, with the ability to take a relatively more offensive apporach to its defense, having Foul Play to prevent physical setup sweepers from becoming too powerful, and options like BoltBeam to provide consistent damage and status. Both have reliable recovery and utility that is a definite must on any sort of Normal team, and Snorlax can't really do anything to the extent that either of the two can. Even with something like Figy Berry + Recycle, you'd not only sacrifice a moveslot just for Recycle, but there's a chance that it becomes useless once the item gets knocked off (Yes, Knocked off items cannot be Recycled.)

Please however, don't let us dissuade you from posting! This is all a learning experience and thank you for getting to learn more about our community and how the tier works.

Again, idk. Part of the reason that I feel this way is because I've recently added Snorlax to my Normal monotype team and its been doing great. I usually just send it out against a wall or something I know cant 2HKO it. If I do that it usually can KO etleased one of my opponents pokes, regardless of type or anything like that. With this being said im in the 1300's, so things valued at my level are probably different from most of the people posting here.

I'm happy with the feedback I've received so far. If you have any more thoughts feel free to reply!

 

[Escavalier Royale]

Basically, using Snorlax as a wall is a little like this:
Does it work? In some matchups, yes. Is it worth using over Chansey? Not at all. Basically, if you want to use any special wall in Normal, you have to clearly see what it has over Chansey--and even then, they're mostly used alongside Chansey. Meloetta (assuming a defensive set) has the important fighting neutrality, while Blissey is less susceptible to Dugtrio with Ice Beam or Shed Shell. Snorlax has offensive presence and one should capitalize on that. This is the set I'm using on it (whenever I feel like using Normal again):
Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant
-Curse
-Rest
-Return/Sleep Talk
-Earthquake/Crunch

Once you got Skarm and Steela (along with annoying Ghosts and Steels in general) out of the way and find setup opportunities, this can be devastating. However, it requires quite a lot of support. You can always also use a meme set:
Snorlax @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Thick Fat
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant
-Curse
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-Self-Destruct

Oh how this is fun to use. Yet over 500 kg of deadweight against Ghost, Steel and Rock.

 

[Vince M]

Alright, I finally got around to creating an account instead of lurking.

I'm in the 1560s, pretty much exclusively using a Normal team, and frankly I don't see the merit of Snorlax. Chansey and Porygon2 are better at tanking hits and have better reliable recovery, while Banded Diggersby hits harder without having to tank a hit and use Curse first.

IMO, Normal is kind of an inflexible type. The Eviolite duo and Staraptor are must-haves, meaning you only have 3 slots left for variety, and it's hard to compete with Mega Lopunny, Diggersby, Ditto, and sometimes Porygon-Z.

Snorlax is "okay," but "okay" isn't good enough to justify the teamslot for it. It doesn't bring any secondary STAB, Imposter, or Z-Conversion to the table.

 

[Kev]

Jellicent (Water)
Unranked => C rank

Jellicent is a very overlooked Pokemon when it comes to Water-Type teams. It's Ghost typing allows it to provide Water teams with an immunity to Diggersby. Presently, the type is immensely pressured by it because switching in on Return/Frustration can not be done safely, even for so called resists such as Empoleon. Furthermore, it is able to completely stop Chansey with Taunt. It's access to this move makes it able to shut down many other bulky Pokemon that can be hard to break such as Toxapex. Also, Jellicent has impressive bulk and access to recovery that give it great longevity in the game. It's bulk can by customized for many different things such as Mega Diancie. The Water-Type is insanely diverse and has many great team options for it. The type has many Pokemon that are able to spread all forms of status on the opposing team. Jellicent can take advantage of this with Hex and it's decent SpA stat that pressures teams even without investment. It becomes very difficult to switch in on Jellicent late-game when the whole team is poisoned/burned or even paralyzed. Those status spreaders are just generally good teammates as they help support it form a solid defensive core. It also has good offensive teammates like Greninja that pressure the opposing teams.

Set

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 152 Def / 88 SpD / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Hex
- Recover
- Scald/Will-O-Wisp

Set made with Vodoom
Other variants are possible such as SpD, more Spe,...
Water Absorb to prevent Scald burns but Cursed Body is fully useable as well.

How it handles Diancie:
4 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 152+ Def Jellicent: 163-193 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Jellicent: 160-189 (39.7 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Tl;dr:
- Shuts down bulky Pokemon
- Immune to Frustration from Diggersby
- Becomes difficult to switch into thanks to Hex
- Has great bulk and recovery
- Some freedom to customize it's set
- Access to a wide pool of amazing partners: Toxapex, Mantine, Azumarill, Swampert, Greninja, Gyarados, Starmie, Mega Sharpedo, ...
- Spinblock

Replay:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7monotype-344156 (Cleary vs Bouff from MWP)
The Jellicent is not the same set, but it's effectiveness is shown well in this match. Also, while the matchup is very good for Jellicent, the pressure of Hex is still present in other matchups.

Overall, this is why I think Jellicent should rise to C or possibly B rank. Let me know if you would like more replays.

 

[Breeze Sea]

Jellicent (Water)
Unranked => C rank

Jellicent is a very overlooked Pokemon when it comes to Water-Type teams. It's Ghost typing allows it to provide Water teams with an immunity to Diggersby. Presently, the type is immensely pressured by it because switching in on Return/Frustration can not be done safely, even for so called resists such as Empoleon. Furthermore, it is able to completely stop Chansey with Taunt. It's access to this move makes it able to shut down many other bulky Pokemon that can be hard to break such as Toxapex. Also, Jellicent has impressive bulk and access to recovery that give it great longevity in the game. It's bulk can by customized for many different things such as Mega Diancie. The Water-Type is insanely diverse and has many great team options for it. The type has many Pokemon that are able to spread all forms of status on the opposing team. Jellicent can take advantage of this with Hex and it's decent SpA stat that pressures teams even without investment. It becomes very difficult to switch in on Jellicent late-game when the whole team is poisoned/burned or even paralyzed. Those status spreaders are just generally good teammates as they help support it form a solid defensive core. It also has good offensive teammates like Greninja that pressure the opposing teams.

Set

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 152 Def / 88 SpD / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Hex
- Recover
- Scald/Will-O-Wisp

Set made with Vodoom
Other variants are possible such as SpD, more Spe,...
Water Absorb to prevent Scald burns but Cursed Body is fully useable as well.

How it handles Diancie:
4 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 152+ Def Jellicent: 163-193 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
52 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 88 SpD Jellicent: 160-189 (39.7 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Tl;dr:
- Shuts down bulky Pokemon
- Immune to Frustration from Diggersby
- Becomes difficult to switch into thanks to Hex
- Has great bulk and recovery
- Some freedom to customize it's set
- Access to a wide pool of amazing partners: Toxapex, Mantine, Azumarill, Swampert, Greninja, Gyarados, Starmie, Mega Sharpedo, ...

Replay:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7monotype-344156 (Cleary vs Bouff from MWP)
The Jellicent is not the same set, but it's effectiveness is shown well in this match. Also, while the matchup is very good for Jellicent, the pressure of Hex is still present in other matchups.

Overall, this is why I think Jellicent should rise to C or possibly B rank. Let me know if you would like more replays.

For the calc is that 52 special attack? Probably a typo but just making sure it’s not a miscalc.

 

[Kev]

For the call is that 52 special attack? Probably a typo but just making sure it’s not a miscalc.

Typo thanks for letting me know

 

[Vince M]

I like that Jellicent, Hex definitely works well on Water with all the Toxic Spikes and Scald burns. It's definitely a pain in the butt for Normal teams - I can attest to this personally. (Granted, it was on a Ghost team, but the Jellicent was my opponent's wincon.) Even though Porygon2 walls that set with Trace, it can't chip it with Discharge or Foul Play faster than Jellicent can Recover. DItto also can't damage Jellicent with Hex fast enough (assuming it's not statused). Mega Lopunny and Diggersby don't like switching into Scald/WoW.

 

[smub]

Stakataka: B=>C (Rock)

Stakataka isn't bad because of Shuckle's Sticky Web practically being mandatory. The real reason why it's bad is because the matchups it improves are ones that Rock should already be winning. Some examples of these include Electric, Dragon, Bug, and Poison. It still fails to beat Fairy due to Klefki's Reflect, allowing it to avoid a 2HKO from unboosted Stakataka's Earthquake(even +1 Stakataka has to go through a roll), and can wear it down to Azumarill range with Foul Play. This is also assuming Stakataka's Trick Room is still up by this point, since Klefki can waste those turns pretty quickly. And if it is, you'll still have to correctly predict the 50-50 whether to Continental Crush on the Azumarill or Gyro Ball on a possible sack. If the Rock player predicts wrong, Azumarill is granted the safe Z-Belly Drum behind Reflect and can very well win the game, since running Stakataka comes at the cost of foregoing Cradily. Another Pokemon to take into account is Mega Scizor. Offensive variants can very easily dispose of Stakataka if they're carrying Superpower, and if it's unboosted it has to win a 50-50 with defensive variants while simultaneously having Trick Room up.

Calcs

Fairy:
252+ Atk Stakataka Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki through Reflect: 92-109 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 2.6% chance to 3HKO(Klefki can very well switch in when Stakataka initially clicks Trick Room and can still get off 3 Foul Plays at most)
+1 252+ Atk Stakataka Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki through Reflect: 138-163 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO(this scenario realistically won't be happening most of the time, and Stakataka would have to win a 50-50 to catch the Klefki switch with Earthquake)
0- Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Stakataka: 68-81 (20.8 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0- Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Stakataka: 102-121 (31.2 - 37.1%) -- 81% chance to 3HKO(this is assuming Stakataka is at +1, where Klefki can get off similar amounts of damage with 2 Foul Plays)
+2 252+ Atk Stakataka Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azumarill through Reflect: 217-256 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(if a wrong prediction is made Azumarill will survive a hit and get off its Belly Drum)
+1 252+ Atk Stakataka Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azumarill through Reflect: 293-345 (85.9 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO(even if Stakataka predicts correctly, it'll still result in an autoloss 87.5% of the time)

Mega Scizor:
252+ Atk Stakataka Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor-Mega: 135-160 (39.3 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Stakataka Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor-Mega: 243-286 (70.8 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This means whenever Trick Room is active, Mega Scizor can consistently spam Roost under Trick Room, and when it ends, Mega Scizor is granted a free Swords Dance, and will only need to get off 3 +2 Bullet Punches to beat Stakataka:
+2 0 Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Stakataka: 109-130 (33.4 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

In comparison to another B rank Pokemon on Rock, Omastar, it can go great lengths to improve the Ground matchup, which without Omastar is a matchup heavily reliant on prediction. With Omastar, the dependence on prediction is still there, but it's lessened since the Ground player will have to risk their Excadrill to keep hazards away, which Omastar capitalizes on by either setting up or simply removing Excadrill with a Hydro Pump. With Stakataka, you're not only heavily reliant on prediction, but you're also heavily reliant on luck, made apparent by the +1 Continental Crush against Azumarill behind Reflect. Stakataka is much more of a hindrance than an asset for Rock teams, which is why I think it should drop to C rank.

Also in the OP Mega Aerodactyl is still put at C rank instead of B for Flying, just to point that out

 

[Wincon]

Volcanion D -> B (Water) , at the very least C rank

So I've been messing around with and building with Volcanion. I'm really confused as to why it's D rank on water. It's much more usable than the other mons in D rank such as cloyster, politoed, and crawdaunt. It can function as an offensive defogger, water immunity, and fairy resist. It also is one of the few pokemon on water that can live a scarf woodhammer from tapu bulu and retaliate. It's also much easier to fit on teams than other pokemon in D rank, and more in line with the usability of pokemon in B rank, at the very least C rank. It can function as a breaker as well with choice specs. Using the set Fire Blast/Steam Eruption/Earth Power/Hidden Power Electric, it can plow through offensive cores such as flying, poison, and also checks belly drum Azumarill. It also naturally checks Sableye. Venusaur getting two hit koed by fire blast, or taking up to 90% from Z fire blast on offensive defogging sets, and toxapex getting two hit koed by both variants especially if its burned previously. The only argument I can assume for volcanion's "low viability" is that it fills the roll that keldeo traditionally fills as a breaker, which it doesn't do as well since keldeo has better speed, better coverage, beats chansey, hits on the physical side of special walls with secret sword, and hits water resists with the combination of hp electric/icy wind; though it lacks defog utility and is walled by grass types such as venusaur and tapu bulu. I found that I liked pairing them together though. Volcanion can do the breaking so keldeo can run cm/taunt or cm/sub with a z item while volcanion is specs. If the team is in need of a defogger, you can run Defog Z fire blast volcanion and have keldeo do the breaking. They pair really well together.

Here are some notable calcs for ya'll to chew on:
Vs Toxapex
252+ SpA Volcanion Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 158-188 (51.9 - 61.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 238-282 (78.2 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Vs Mantine
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 292-344 (78 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vs Fairy
252+ SpA Volcanion Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki through Light Screen: 372-438 (116.9 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Volcanion Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 361-426 (91.6 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcanion in Grassy Terrain: 252-297 (83.7 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Vs Venusaur
252+ SpA Volcanion Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 278-330 (76.3 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 248-294 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Watch volc put in work ;u;
Me vs NJNP (while he was streaming)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/battlearea-gen7monotype-35863

In this game Keldeo + Volc worked in tandem to continually pressure jellicent till volcanion eventually knocks it out with its Z
Me vs Trash (Smog Exhibition)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-705191171