Resource Monotype USM Viability Rankings

I'll gladly put in some input for bug

First, I'd like to start off with Accelgor (unranked>C or D). Although not an ideal option for mono bug, its base 145 speed and access to unburden makes it a huge threat to foes such as scarf blacephalon, who are easily capable of removing the focus sash in one hit, allowing accelgor to hit a max of 854 without any additional buffs. Now, hear me out on this, Accelgor has access to Me First, which, at first glance, may seem essentially useless, but playing with mono bug for as long as I have has taught me that its imparative that Accelgor run this move, as it allows for an essentially guaranteed surprise counterattack after removal of the focus sash. The downside to this is that Araquanid is a necessity to force scarf blacephalon to lock itself into Shadow Ball, ideally. As for its other moves, I run Bug Buzz, Energy Ball, and Focus Blast, giving it solid coverage, and allowing it to take out large threats. Energy Ball provides an excellent way to dispatch major threats such as Gastrodon and Mega Swampert in one hit, while 2HKOing Hippowdon with leftovers recovery and Stealth Rock. Focus Blast, being its strongest attack, deals excellent damage to scarf Terrakion (80.4-95.3%), a 2HKO against Mega Diancie after Stealth Rock and an almost guaranteed 2HKO against defensive Heatran after stealth rock. Bug Buzz, being Accelgor's ideal STAB move, bypasses sub-setters like sub Shaymin,deals 43.3-51.2% to Mega Gallade, dispatches Greninja in one hit, and removes Alolan Muk in 4 hits after stealth rocks, in which this isn't the ideal matchup, not to mention, Muk would have chip damage on it already, ideally. Accelgor also serves as the ideal switch in to lethal moves such as Fire Blast, as it is able to survive the obvious OHKO with the Sash, then deal decent chip damage with the possibility of using Me First, as its speed will be doubled. This set could either be run with a Modest or Timid nature, although Modest is perferred, with 252 EVs in SpA and Spe. This set has won me several games almost single-handedly, and helps immensly against mono rock, flying, and fire. Me First, however, is a very situational move, but can OHKO Special Celesteela on the Flamethrower while running a Modest nature. Accelgor can easily gain the upper hand against mono water, rock, and flying, and serves 2 purposes while on the team, making its contribution very worthwhile in most situations. I hope you take my input into consideration, as I truly believe that Accelgor is a solid candidate for mono bug.
 
Last edited:
I'll gladly put in some input for bug

First, I'd like to start off with Accelgor (unranked>C or D). Although not an ideal option for mono bug, its base 145 speed and access to unburden makes it a huge threat to foes such as scarf blacephalon, who are easily capable of removing the focus sash in one hit, allowing accelgor to hit a max of 854 without any additional buffs. Now, hear me out on this, Accelgor has access to Me First, which, at first glance, may seem essentially useless, but playing with mono bug for as long as I have has taught me that its imparative that Accelgor run this move, as it allows for an essentially guaranteed surprise counterattack after removal of the focus sash. The downside to this is that Araquanid is a necessity to force scarf blacephalon to lock itself into Shadow Ball, ideally. As for its other moves, I run Bug Buzz, Energy Ball, and Focus Blast, giving it solid coverage, and allowing it to take out large threats. Energy Ball provides an excellent way to dispatch major threats such as Gastrodon and Mega Swampert in one hit, while 2HKOing Hippowdon with leftovers recovery and Stealth Rock. Focus Blast, being its strongest attack, deals excellent damage to scarf Terrakion (80.4-95.3%), a 2HKO against Mega Diancie after Stealth Rock and an almost guaranteed 2HKO against defensive Heatran after stealth rock. Bug Buzz, being Accelgor's ideal STAB move, bypasses sub-setters like sub Shaymin,deals 43.3-51.2% to Mega Gallade, dispatches Greninja in one hit, and removes Alolan Muk in 4 hits after stealth rocks, in which this isn't the ideal matchup, not to mention, Muk would have chip damage on it already, ideally. Accelgor also serves as the ideal switch in to lethal moves such as Fire Blast, as it is able to survive the obvious OHKO with the Sash, then deal decent chip damage with the possibility of using Me First, as its speed will be doubled. This set could either be run with a Modest or Timid nature, although Modest is perferred, with 252 EVs in SpA and Spe. This set has won me several games almost single-handedly, and helps immensly against mono rock, flying, and fire. Me First, however, is a very situational move, but can OHKO Special Celesteela on the Flamethrower while running a Modest nature. Accelgor can easily gain the upper hand against mono water, rock, and flying, and serves 2 purposes while on the team, making its contribution very worthwhile in most situations. I hope you take my input into consideration, as I truly believe that Accelgor is a solid candidate for mono bug.
I disagree with some of those.

Your strategy entirely relies on keeping your focus sash, which isnt an easy task because bug has very limited hazard removals. Considering your idea is a suprise attack, most likely you wont expose your strategy turn 1 and keep it for later. So, Accelgor will probably lose its sash when its sent on the field. Despite that, in a 1 v 1 case, blace will click on flamethrower instead of shadowball. ( You also stated that but blace user will just switch after you switch on araquanid.)

About the water matchup, any sensible player would switch on Toxapex or Azumarill. ( because energy ball is a known move. )
About Hippowdon, mixed defense variant doesnt go down in 2 hits, which is also a decent set.
About Celesteela, believe or not but heavy slam deals more damage, noone would use fthrower.
About Muk alola, you dont really kill it in 4 hits, because muk can 2 hko it. ( Pjab + pursuit damage is enough at the lowest roll without rocks)
About Mega gallade, you lose 1 v 1 because gallade doesnt need to set up to kill accelgor. If it carries shadow sneak, it'll also prevent your second hit.
252 Atk Gallade-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Accelgor: 315-372 (104.6 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

About Heatran, it loses 1 v 1 cuz magma will consume sash upon succesful hit and fblast only hits around 50%.
I have no idea how accelgor is helping with flying and fire matchup.


Last but not least, providing replays upon the suggested sets/nominations will help you to explain your point and make it easier to be understood by other players.
 
I'll gladly put in some input for bug

First, I'd like to start off with Accelgor (unranked>C or D). Although not an ideal option for mono bug, its base 145 speed and access to unburden makes it a huge threat to foes such as scarf blacephalon, who are easily capable of removing the focus sash in one hit, allowing accelgor to hit a max of 854 without any additional buffs. Now, hear me out on this, Accelgor has access to Me First, which, at first glance, may seem essentially useless, but playing with mono bug for as long as I have has taught me that its imparative that Accelgor run this move, as it allows for an essentially guaranteed surprise counterattack after removal of the focus sash. The downside to this is that Araquanid is a necessity to force scarf blacephalon to lock itself into Shadow Ball, ideally. As for its other moves, I run Bug Buzz, Energy Ball, and Focus Blast, giving it solid coverage, and allowing it to take out large threats. Energy Ball provides an excellent way to dispatch major threats such as Gastrodon and Mega Swampert in one hit, while 2HKOing Hippowdon with leftovers recovery and Stealth Rock. Focus Blast, being its strongest attack, deals excellent damage to scarf Terrakion (80.4-95.3%), a 2HKO against Mega Diancie after Stealth Rock and an almost guaranteed 2HKO against defensive Heatran after stealth rock. Bug Buzz, being Accelgor's ideal STAB move, bypasses sub-setters like sub Shaymin,deals 43.3-51.2% to Mega Gallade, dispatches Greninja in one hit, and removes Alolan Muk in 4 hits after stealth rocks, in which this isn't the ideal matchup, not to mention, Muk would have chip damage on it already, ideally. Accelgor also serves as the ideal switch in to lethal moves such as Fire Blast, as it is able to survive the obvious OHKO with the Sash, then deal decent chip damage with the possibility of using Me First, as its speed will be doubled. This set could either be run with a Modest or Timid nature, although Modest is perferred, with 252 EVs in SpA and Spe. This set has won me several games almost single-handedly, and helps immensly against mono rock, flying, and fire. Me First, however, is a very situational move, but can OHKO Special Celesteela on the Flamethrower while running a Modest nature. Accelgor can easily gain the upper hand against mono water, rock, and flying, and serves 2 purposes while on the team, making its contribution very worthwhile in most situations. I hope you take my input into consideration, as I truly believe that Accelgor is a solid candidate for mono bug.
I don’t understand the point of Accelgor on a bug team. All of the examples you provided feel outclassed by better bugs. Blacephalon already gets walled and forced out by Araquanid as you mentioned. While Accelgor can reach insane speeds with unburden, Bug teams already have a ton of speed control options, such as proprity users like Scizor and Mega Pinsir, and powerful scarfers like Heracross and Buzzwole. It feels outclassed by Galvantula completely based on your description.

Galvantula @ Focus Sash
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Thunder
- Energy Ball
- Hidden Power [Ice]

This standard set also runs Focus Sash which also lets it act as an emergency check to sweepers if rocks aren’t up, but in addition can use that free turn to set webs, making it a good lead and facilitating powerful sweepers like Volcarona and Mega Pinsir once it is long gone. However, its movepool is what sets it apart from other web users, which lets it hit Skarmory, Celesteela, and most importantly Toxapex with a STAB Thunder thanks to Compound Eyes. It even carries Energy Ball like Accelgor which lets it hit potential switch ins to Thunder, like Swampert and Rotom-Wash. All-in-all Unburden is a nice, but ultamitely unnecessary gimmick that doesn’t offer much for Bug Teams. Me First is equally not useful when Scarf Blacephalon and Celesteela already have multiple answers on most bug teams and are far from the greatest threat to them. I don’t think Accelgor offers anything worth giving up a slot for on Bug Teams imo.
 
Last edited:
I disagree with some of those.

Your strategy entirely relies on keeping your focus sash, which isnt an easy task because bug has very limited hazard removals. Considering your idea is a suprise attack, most likely you wont expose your strategy turn 1 and keep it for later. So, Accelgor will probably lose its sash when its sent on the field. Despite that, in a 1 v 1 case, blace will click on flamethrower instead of shadowball. ( You also stated that but blace user will just switch after you switch on araquanid.)

About the water matchup, any sensible player would switch on Toxapex or Azumarill. ( because energy ball is a known move. )
About Hippowdon, mixed defense variant doesnt go down in 2 hits, which is also a decent set.
About Celesteela, believe or not but heavy slam deals more damage, noone would use fthrower.
About Muk alola, you dont really kill it in 4 hits, because muk can 2 hko it. ( Pjab + pursuit damage is enough at the lowest roll without rocks)
About Mega gallade, you lose 1 v 1 because gallade doesnt need to set up to kill accelgor. If it carries shadow sneak, it'll also prevent your second hit.
252 Atk Gallade-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Accelgor: 315-372 (104.6 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

About Heatran, it loses 1 v 1 cuz magma will consume sash upon succesful hit and fblast only hits around 50%.
I have no idea how accelgor is helping with flying and fire matchup.


Last but not least, providing replays upon the suggested sets/nominations will help you to explain your point and make it easier to be understood by other players.
Ok, cool, thanks for the input, this was the very first thing I posted, so, overall, my level of competency is low. I do have replays to back up my claim, mainly v rock. Also my bad for quoting twice, i thought that first one got deleted.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-711023012
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-710897657
Thats about all i have in terms of showcasing an accurate representation of Accelgors capabilities in battle.
 
Last edited:
Time for a Dark mon who is amazing................ no really.
Incineroar.png Nominating Incineroar for DARK (Unranked > D)

Reason:

It's here, FINALLY. Incineroar got his hidden ability in Intimidate, which makes it so much more viable for dark monos now!
This Dark and Fire mon Really helps in the Fairy matchup together with bisharp and (maybe) muk as well.
This is the set I mostly run with it:

Incineroar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant/Brave Nature
- U-Turn
- Drain Punch
- Darkest Lariat
- Flare Blitz / Fire Blast

Here are some calcs on the defensive side:

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Incineroar: 314-370 (79.6 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Incineroar: 288-338 (73 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar in Electric Terrain: 130-154 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 112-132 (28.4 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Incineroar: 246-290 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Here are some calcs on the offensive side:

(ofcourse it 1hkos all ferrothorn and scizor sets)
252+ Atk Incineroar Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 166-196 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 500-590 (166.1 - 196%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 280-331 (90 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 384-452 (96.4 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

Now, im saying it belongs to D because in my opinion it has some use in Dark monotypes, but isn't a 'meta-defining' mon. And to be honest, when I see that Cacturne is also on rank D, i believe that this HAS to be ranked at least.
 
Time for a Dark mon who is amazing................ no really.
View attachment 109439 Nominating Incineroar for DARK (Unranked > D)

Reason:

It's here, FINALLY. Incineroar got his hidden ability in Intimidate, which makes it so much more viable for dark monos now!
This Dark and Fire mon Really helps in the Fairy matchup together with bisharp and (maybe) muk as well.
This is the set I mostly run with it:

Incineroar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant/Brave Nature
- U-Turn
- Drain Punch
- Darkest Lariat
- Flare Blitz / Fire Blast

Here are some calcs on the defensive side:

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Incineroar: 314-370 (79.6 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Incineroar: 288-338 (73 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar in Electric Terrain: 130-154 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 112-132 (28.4 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Incineroar: 246-290 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Here are some calcs on the offensive side:

(ofcourse it 1hkos all ferrothorn and scizor sets)
252+ Atk Incineroar Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 166-196 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 500-590 (166.1 - 196%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 280-331 (90 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 384-452 (96.4 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

Now, im saying it belongs to D because in my opinion it has some use in Dark monotypes, but isn't a 'meta-defining' mon. And to be honest, when I see that Cacturne is also on rank D, i believe that this HAS to be ranked at least.
Incineroar should not be ranked at all. Even with Intimidate, it's still inferior to common defensive Pokemon on balanced Dark teams, such as Tyranitar, Alolan Muk, Mandibuzz, and Mega Sableye. Starting with the Fairy matchup, Clefable will be avoiding a 2HKO from Flare Blitz most of the time, and can beat Incineroar 1v1, and since it has nothing to hit Azumarill, it's just Belly Drum bait and nothing more. Tapu Koko runs Magnet and Choice Specs pretty often, so that 3HKO chance turns more into a guaranteed 2HKO with Choice Specs, while Stealth Rock is needed for the 2HKO with a Magnet. Here are some of the calcs for Fairy:

252+ Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 174-205 (44.1 - 52%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 118-140 (34.6 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO(if it's behind Reflect that's a free Belly Drum into Z-Belly Drum to gain full health)
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar in Electric Terrain: 195-229 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar in Electric Terrain: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


As for your other calcs, Choice Band Scizor commonly runs max Speed, so it'll immediately KO with the following Superpower after the first one. Even then, Mandibuzz switches into and beats Scizor 1v1 more consistently, so there's no real purpose for Incineroar. It's a similar case with Terrakion, except you have Mega Sableye to switch into that. Choice Scarf Kyurem-Black is hardly ever used anymore, and when it is, it isn't clicking Earth Power against a Dark team. The more common set, which is Life Orb, will pretty much always 2HKO AV Incineroar with Earth Power, and can even Roost to recover all of the damage taken from a Flare Blitz. A lot of the other calcs, like Heracross and Excadrill, are just repeats of what I said before. You have defensive switch-ins to handle these Pokemon, and even some good offensive options like Greninja to handle them.

Also, the reason Cacturne is in D rank is because of its effectiveness as an anti-Water for hyper offensive Dark teams. While Dark does have Hydreigon with Taunt+Roost, running Cacturne can allow it to run Choice Specs for sheer wallbreaking, or run an extra coverage option over Roost. It actually does have a defined niche on Dark teams, unlike Incineroar, which is why it's D rank, and why Incineroar should stay unranked.
 

Havens

Paranoid Android
is a Tiering Contributor
Mafia Champion
Quick nom since I'm just noticing this:

Mega Latios (Dragon): Unranked -> C (D at least)

How is this actually not placed anywhere? I understand that Latios works better as a scarfer and Mega Latias/Altaria is the more optimal pick, but Mega Latios is also an offensive option to hit steels with HP Fire/EQ. It doesn't really need DD or CM, as its powerful 130 / 160 offensive stats don't really require any extra boosting. Better than average bulk w/ 100 / 120 defenses also make it so it can eat some hits. I'm not saying that it's better than the others, but it should be put here, somewhere.
 
Quick nom since I'm just noticing this:

Mega Latios (Dragon): Unranked -> C (D at least)

How is this actually not placed anywhere? I understand that Latios works better as a scarfer and Mega Latias/Altaria is the more optimal pick, but Mega Latios is also an offensive option to hit steels with HP Fire/EQ. It doesn't really need DD or CM, as its powerful 130 / 160 offensive stats don't really require any extra boosting. Better than average bulk w/ 100 / 120 defenses also make it so it can eat some hits. I'm not saying that it's better than the others, but it should be put here, somewhere.
I disagree. Mega Latios' opportunity cost is just so ridiculously high and it gives you very little in return. Not being able to run Choice Scarf Latios is already a very big trade (Latios just destroys Poison once Garchomp removes Muk and chips Venusaur, Scarf Latias' lower damage output makes this significantly harder as it misses out on crucial KOes), and taking up the Mega slot is a bridge too far, as most it does is done better by Mega Latias and it doesn't help out in important matchups like Mega Altaria does. Hell, Mega Garchomp is probably more usable as an anti-Ground threat or something (idk why it's ranked but apparently it helps really well in specific matchups). Of course, Mega Latios has a niche, but if we're going like that we can rank Escavalier on Steel because it works well in TR and has a stronger Bug STAB than Scizor and things, although in the end it isn't ranked because in the end it's almost completely unviable and too gimmicky.

Its "powerful" offensive stats of 130/160 are also a little overrated, as Latios is unable to hold a boosting item like Life Orb and thus has a pretty mediocre damage output in the long run without Calm Mind or Dragon Dance boosts. If you want to hit Steels, use Kyurem-Black; it has HP Fire + Earth Power and similar bulk. Sure, it is slower, gets LO chip and fares worse against Scizor but it doesn't come at such a ridiculous opportunity cost. There is basically no real reason to use Mega Latios over either Choice Scarf Latios or Mega Latias, which both do what it does better, and Mega Latios is basically just a very mediocre middle ground between the two. If you want to use it at all, it can be used as a decent lure for things like Heatran and Alolan Muk (and to some extent Tyranitar); however, do you really want to sacrifice a Mega slot on something like that? (Mega) Garchomp can beat those mons too.

Mega Latios' possible roles are all outclassed by other mons. Revenge killer? Scarf Lati@s does that better. Dragon Dance sweeper? Hello Salamence, Mega Altaria and the occasional DD Dragonite. Wallbreaker? KyuB and Hydreigon say hi. Defogging? Scarf Latios and Mega Latias called. Calm Mind? Mega Latias can do that while you can still run Scarf Latios in the back. Literally all it does is luring things you can just remove by slapping Earthquake on one of your many other dragons and clicking it. Not to mention that once you reveal Mega Latios it's pretty obvious what it's gonna do and the lure factor largely disappears, so you have to rely heavily on the surprise element. If you're going to bring up "role compression" then we may as well rank Flygon for providing Defog support, STAB Earthquake for the Steel and Poison matchups and being able to sweep with Dragon Dance. When was the last time you saw a serious Dragon team use Flygon?

Lastly, running Mega Latios means you can neither run Mega Altaria nor Scarf Latios; good luck winning Dragon mirror with that. Because of all these crippling flaws, the zumongous opportunity cost, and Mega Latios being heavily outclassed, it should stay unranked.
 
I also disagree with this nom of Mega Latios because it's only niche is really just being a Steel killer and Dragon already has that in Z Kommo-o, Band Dragonite, Mega Garchomp and Life Orb/Specs Hydreigon. It's really a pointless Mega to have on Dragon because Latias does not have the kill on Mega Diancie with HP Steel, as it's a roll without screens unlike Latios, and struggles with other things that Latios can alway OHKO and not betting on a roll with Scarf Latias.

Running Latios as a scarfer is blatantly better with getting threats out of the way. I don't see Dragon really needing this set unlike Psychic, which makes more sense there. I believe Mega Latios should stay unranked as it makes Dragon struggle in matchups it shouldn't have to struggle in and you gain nothing mu wise running Mega Latios.
 

Havens

Paranoid Android
is a Tiering Contributor
Mafia Champion
I think that you guys are underrating its Mega Latios' abilities heavily. I never said that it was by any means good or optimal in any sense of the word, but calling it unviable is simply untrue. Of course I'm aware Mega Latias and Scarf Latios is already infinitely better than Mega Latios as a whole. If anything, being able to go and bluff the Choice Scarf, because it is so common, and lure in the likes of Heatran and Alolan-Muk easily than having it be walled or Pursuit-trapped proves that it has merit as a viable option that could be ranked, for not only being able to lure in threats that would be problematic had Latios been Scarfed, but also preserves setup tools like Kommo-o and DD Dragonite late game to sweep. Sure the offensive stats without DD or CM is a bit of a stretch, but still does decently well if it's at base value.
I disagree. Mega Latios' opportunity cost is just so ridiculously high and it gives you very little in return. Not being able to run Choice Scarf Latios is already a very big trade (Latios just destroys Poison once Garchomp removes Muk and chips Venusaur, Scarf Latias' lower damage output makes this significantly harder as it misses out on crucial KOes), and taking up the Mega slot is a bridge too far, as most it does is done better by Mega Latias and it doesn't help out in important matchups like Mega Altaria does. Hell, Mega Garchomp is probably more usable as an anti-Ground threat or something (idk why it's ranked but apparently it helps really well in specific matchups). Of course, Mega Latios has a niche, but if we're going like that we can rank Escavalier on Steel because it works well in TR and has a stronger Bug STAB than Scizor and things, although in the end it isn't ranked because in the end it's almost completely unviable and too gimmicky.

Its "powerful" offensive stats of 130/160 are also a little overrated, as Latios is unable to hold a boosting item like Life Orb and thus has a pretty mediocre damage output in the long run without Calm Mind or Dragon Dance boosts. If you want to hit Steels, use Kyurem-Black; it has HP Fire + Earth Power and similar bulk. Sure, it is slower, gets LO chip and fares worse against Scizor but it doesn't come at such a ridiculous opportunity cost. There is basically no real reason to use Mega Latios over either Choice Scarf Latios or Mega Latias, which both do what it does better, and Mega Latios is basically just a very mediocre middle ground between the two. If you want to use it at all, it can be used as a decent lure for things like Heatran and Alolan Muk (and to some extent Tyranitar); however, do you really want to sacrifice a Mega slot on something like that? (Mega) Garchomp can beat those mons too.

Mega Latios' possible roles are all outclassed by other mons. Revenge killer? Scarf Lati@s does that better. Dragon Dance sweeper? Hello Salamence, Mega Altaria and the occasional DD Dragonite. Wallbreaker? KyuB and Hydreigon say hi. Defogging? Scarf Latios and Mega Latias called. Calm Mind? Mega Latias can do that while you can still run Scarf Latios in the back. Literally all it does is luring things you can just remove by slapping Earthquake on one of your many other dragons and clicking it. Not to mention that once you reveal Mega Latios it's pretty obvious what it's gonna do and the lure factor largely disappears, so you have to rely heavily on the surprise element. If you're going to bring up "role compression" then we may as well rank Flygon for providing Defog support, STAB Earthquake for the Steel and Poison matchups and being able to sweep with Dragon Dance. When was the last time you saw a serious Dragon team use Flygon?

Lastly, running Mega Latios means you can neither run Mega Altaria nor Scarf Latios; good luck winning Dragon mirror with that. Because of all these crippling flaws, the zumongous opportunity cost, and Mega Latios being heavily outclassed, it should stay unranked.
You make it sound like the thing is worse than Goodra and Turtonator, two mons that are actually outclassed by every other Dragon, which is just "ridiculously" untrue. I understand what you're trying to say, but comparing its cost for saying something that you obviously knows no one (Flygon and Salamence for instance) will use doesn't help the case on why it's actually bad. Like, I'm not trying to flame here, but really I'm only trying to make an actual case for why it has a use in the first place. Please don't disrespect my ability to make a case because its something away from the norm of what it's supposed to be. Like, I nommed the thing for D rank at least; with all of it's offensive output, surely it's not so worthless for Mega Latios be ranked lower than Goodra, no?

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Scizor-Mega: 338-400 (98.5 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (Defensive)
252 SpA Latios-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Scizor-Mega: 300-356 (87.4 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO (Defensive)
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scizor-Mega: 343-406 (122 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Offensive)
252 SpA Latios-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scizor-Mega: 308-364 (109.6 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Offensive)
4 Atk Latios-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 12 Def Muk-Alola: 226-268 (54.7 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
I think that you guys are underrating its Mega Latios' abilities heavily. I never said that it was by any means good or optimal in any sense of the word, but calling it unviable is simply untrue. Of course I'm aware Mega Latias and Scarf Latios is already infinitely better than Mega Latios as a whole. If anything, being able to go and bluff the Choice Scarf, because it is so common, and lure in the likes of Heatran and Alolan-Muk easily than having it be walled or Pursuit-trapped proves that it has merit as a viable option that could be ranked, for not only being able to lure in threats that would be problematic had Latios been Scarfed, but also preserves setup tools like Kommo-o and DD Dragonite late game to sweep. Sure the offensive stats without DD or CM is a bit of a stretch, but still does decently well if it's at base value.

You make it sound like the thing is worse than Goodra and Turtonator, two mons that are actually outclassed by every other Dragon, which is just "ridiculously" untrue. I understand what you're trying to say, but comparing its cost for saying something that you obviously knows no one (Flygon and Salamence for instance) will use doesn't help the case on why it's actually bad. Like, I'm not trying to flame here, but really I'm only trying to make an actual case for why it has a use in the first place. Please don't disrespect my ability to make a case because its something away from the norm of what it's supposed to be. Like, I nommed the thing for D rank at least; with all of it's offensive output, surely it's not so worthless for Mega Latios be ranked lower than Goodra, no?

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Scizor-Mega: 338-400 (98.5 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (Defensive)
252 SpA Latios-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Scizor-Mega: 300-356 (87.4 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO (Defensive)
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scizor-Mega: 343-406 (122 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Offensive)
252 SpA Latios-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scizor-Mega: 308-364 (109.6 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Offensive)
4 Atk Latios-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 12 Def Muk-Alola: 226-268 (54.7 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah, but Goodras niche is soaking up spA with its spD stat and its Assault Vest, something that other Dragons cannot do well, and also soak up Spore and Leech Seed with Sap Sipper. Mega Latios is legit doing to same things that other Dragons already do. It doesn't add anything to Dragon overall and wasting a mega slot.

While yes you can lure two things, but Garchomp can always come in on Muk-A. But the Poison Player would try to Pursuit/Knock Off and yes Muk will lose about 54.7 - 64.8% HP , but that can also open up the Muk switching to Crobat and U-turn out to get another Pokemon in and again the Poison v Dragon MU is already heavily in Dragon's favor in less you are playing like you don't have a brain. As for the Dark MU once Earthquake is revealed, the Dark user will go Mandibuzz or Mega Sableye to soak up the Earthquake or miss it all together.

As long as Kommo-o, Hydreigon or Dragonite is alive no sane steel player will stay in with Heatran def if all the sudden Latios uses HP fire in the battle, def if is not lefties Heatran with no way to recover other then Celesteela's or Ferrothorn's Leech Seed. There are even some Heatrans that run Protect and scout the Earthquake coming from Mega Latios, which means they can just go Celesteela and leech and get HP back. There is also Ferrothorn and Celesteela that run Protect to scout also if you try to predict the Heatran switch in. 99% of the time the HP will be steel on Latios unless you are using Specs Latios. In less there's something I'm really overlooking, it should stay unranked.
 
Last edited:

Moosical

magical me
is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
I haven't really touched the VR before, but looking through it, I think there's a fair amount of drops that need to happen within the types. In my opinion, a lot of the Pokemon fail to live up to the other Pokemon they're ranked along with or don't effectively perform their niche well. Keep in mind this is just my personal opinion on a lot of these Pokemon and their function on teams.
Scolipede B->C
Scolipede simply cannot keep up with the current metagame. Its extremely difficult to fit onto a team as you lose out on important synergy doing so. While it does have "ok" coverage options, it's limited by the need to run Swords Dance and typically either Protect or Substitute, leaving it easily walled. Its measly base 100 Attack also prevent it from effectively sweeping through opposing teams, especially with prevalent Pokemon like Toxapex and Mantine. It has a niche in beating specific matchups, but isn't more generally useful like the other B ranks in Mega Heracross, Forretress, and Buzzwole - rather more similar to Yanmega.

Shuckle B->C
The opportunity loss for running Shuckle as your hazard setter seems to generally be way too much, making teams extremely passive when Bug likes to be more offensive. Sure it compresses both Stealth Rock and Sticky Web, but you're still required to utilize a hazard remover, defeating the purpose of compressing the two roles, as the hazard remover will likely be running Stealth Rock anyways. Much like Scolipede, I don't think it has a solid enough niche to sit along side the other B rank Pokemon and just opens up potential issues for the team.

Ribombee C->D
I really can't think of a single situation you would want to use Ribombee on Bug as a Sticky Web setter over Galvantula or Araquanid, who both do much more for the team than solely set Sticky Web. I suppose the only situation I could see using Ribombee is to specifically cteam Dragon, which is very niche in of itself (the only reason I could see keeping it as C). Aside from Dragon, I suppose it supports a small amount in U-Turn or Stun Spore, but you lose way too much in not running Galvantula or Araquanid.
Thundurus B->A
I'm not sure how to feel about Thundurus' place on the VR. In my opinion, it's miles ahead of both Mega Manectric and Xurkitree, but not quite as good as Raichu-A and Golem-A. If mono had +/-, I'd definitely put it at either A- or B+, but alas. I think it'd be worthy of ranking up due to how helpful it is in a lot of the current top-type matchups with its Choice Band set. Helping immensely with Normal thanks to Superpower, and Psychic thanks to U-Turn while mainting use in the Fairy matchup if you opt to using the niche move in Iron Tail. I'd be fine with keeping this at B rank, I suppose, but I still think it's much, much better than Xurkitree.
I'm going to preface this by saying that Fire VR is in a very weird spot. It's extremely top heavy, and even then I don't think that all of its A ranks are on equal footing. Probably could use an overhaul but meh.
Rotom-H A->B
I've never liked Rotom-H, I'm going to start with that. Its dual screens set is extremely niche, and tends to fail to do anything significant in battles, in my experience. Its function is to enable either Volcarona or Mega Charizard X in setting up, but really thats it. Even with Defog, I don't think you can afford dropping Torkoal on those teams because of how good Sun is on Fire, while providing Yawn support to stop physical setup Pokemon from simply winning. I guess having a slow Volt Switch is nice in helping you bring in the offensive Pokemon, but again, it's 100% not worthy of A rank.

Volcanion C->B
I know Volcanion on Fire is a bit of a meme, but I still find it to be wonderfully useful. Its function in walling Toxapex (except those running Toxic, which is very uncommon atm), which fire has extreme issues dealing with, is very much welcomed (if you're running Earth Power). Additionally, while it does have 4-move syndrome, if you can fit Defog onto it, it relieves a ton of pressure in keeping hazards off the field, which Torkoal especially appreciates. It also has the niche in helping with Azumarill on both Fairy and Water as it outspeeds and KOs the Belly Drum variant, and walls the PerishTrap Azumarill, if they're not running Toxic. I won't be heartbroken if this doesn't go through though, as I know these functions still are a little niche, just figured I'd make a claim. I at least do think it's better than Alolan Marowak, which only has one specific niche in providing an Electric immunity for M-Char-Y teams, but even that isn't particuarly good.
Gastrodon B->A
I'm not sure exactly how to feel about this mon, but I think that Gastrodon's use as a bulky Water-immunity on Ground is enough to raise its rank. Its decent bulk makes it particularly difficult to deal with for a fair number of types, and it doesn't just straight lose to Fairy once people started utilizing Mega Garchomp as a partner. I would say that it's on par with Seismitoad at least, and deserves a raise. The only reason I could see to not raise it would be the requirement to run Mega Garchomp as a partner as well, which isn't obvious to the average user.
Gengar A->B
Trying to fit Gengar onto a Poison team is way too difficult, and even then, has limited use. Its function as a Scarf Special Attacker is outclassed completely by Nihilego and Poison can't really afford to drop any of the other teammates, all performing a very specific and important role. I suppose you could run it on less defensively-oriented Poison teams, which aren't particularly good, unless you're willing to drop Nidoking, forcing Nihilego to run Stealth Rock. Its main function would be, in my opinion, to more easily beat Psychic, lessening the burden on Alolan Muk, but that niche isn't A Rank worthy at all.

There are a handful of others that I think are due for a change, but I ran out of energy writing this post. :[
Just my two cents on the current VR, as it hasn't changed in a few months now.
 
Last edited:
I personally disagree with the Rotom-Heat and Thundurus noms.

Rotom-Heat, in adittion to screen support, gives fire teams a consistent semi-bulky ground immunity (outside of Mold Breaker/Teravolt), which disuades your opponent from spamming Earthquake on teams running Mega Charizard X. It is also a reliable switch in to electric types like Tapu Koko thanks to it’s good bulk and defensive typing.

252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Heat in Electric Terrain: 101-119 (33.2 - 39.1%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Obviously this isn’t as consistent as Alolan Marowak, but it can build momentum after you Volt Switch out into a Scarfer that can threaten it on a predicted Taunt.

I think it also worth noting that Volt Switch can put alot of pressure on Mantine, which certain Fire Teams can have issue with if they arent running Victini or a strong Stone Edge user like Band Infernape

Lastly, I think you underestimate how useful dual screens for Fire is. It obviously gives Char X and Volc chances to setup, but it also allows Torkoal to come in and set and remove Stealth Rocks easier, and also allows frailer pokemon like Blacephalon and Infernape to avoid certain OHKOs, which makes them alot better at revenge killing and avoiding being revenge killed.

As for the Thundurus nom, I am not saying it is unworthy of an A rank atm, but Zeraora is likely going to be released soon (movie has been announced) and will most likely completely outclass it as a physical attacker outside of Prankster and a Ground immunity. I think we should wait for it’s release and see how it fares with that.
 
There are a few inconsistencies with this post. I personally agree with all of the nominations, so here’s my own two cents:

Rotom-Heat, in adittion to screen support, gives fire teams a consistent semi-bulky ground immunity
The thing about screens is that Rotom-Heat simply isn’t a great setter of them. The only dual screen Pokemon in the tier (Klefki, Deoxys-S) both excel purely because of their ability to set screens very quickly due to their speed/ability. Obviously every single type in Monotype would appreciate a good setter of screens as you said, but Rotom-H is not the most efficient Pokemon in this role. Rotom-H lacks with its below average speed, and its average bulk does not justify it being a good dual screens user on Fire. Also, while its Ground immunity is certainly nice, it tends to lose to most of the Ground-types in the tier like Garchomp and Swampert due to its inability to damage them much.

As for the Thundurus nom, I am not saying it is unworthy of an A rank atm, but Zeraora is likely going to be released soon
Well, the VR is supposed to represent the current metagame. We should never theorymon and base the rankings on assumptions because of a certain Pokemon’s release or whatnot. You might as well be right, but this should only happen when Zeraora is actually out and we have gauged how good it is in the meta. If Thundurus belongs in the A ranking right now, then it should move up to A-rank regardless of what Pokemon may be coming out soon.
 
There are a few inconsistencies with this post. I personally agree with all of the nominations, so here’s my own two cents:


The thing about screens is that Rotom-Heat simply isn’t a great setter of them. The only dual screen Pokemon in the tier (Klefki, Deoxys-S) both excel purely because of their ability to set screens very quickly due to their speed/ability. Obviously every single type in Monotype would appreciate a good setter of screens as you said, but Rotom-H is not the most efficient Pokemon in this role. Rotom-H lacks with its below average speed, and its average bulk does not justify it being a good dual screens user on Fire. Also, while its Ground immunity is certainly nice, it tends to lose to most of the Ground-types in the tier like Garchomp and Swampert due to its inability to damage them much.
It obviously isn’t as good as Klefki in setting up screens, which is why it is not an S rank like that is, but it can find plenty of chances to come in during a matchup, set screens, and then pivot back out with Volt Switch. Deoxys-S, Klefki, Rotom-Heat all do more then set screens. Typically, Deoxys also sets rocks and shuts down other leads, Klefki stacks spikes, and Rotom-H removes hazards. As for Ground types, Will O Wisp can be used to cripple them on the switch and create safe setup opportunities and make them easier for the rest of the team to handle, which is made fairly easy since most people expect it to run Defog. This of course invites rock setters to come in on it as well as put more pressure on Torkoal to remove hazards, but screen support helps makes it easier to deal with those issues.

I can understand if Rotom were to drop to B-Rank, but I didn’t find the reasons given in the original post to be quite enough to justify it. I mean, it mentioned how it can’t replace Torkoal when they shouldn’t really be competing for a slot in the first place and instead compliment eachother quite well. While it can have a difficult time coming in during certain matchups, it would hardly call it “extremely niche.”
 
Last edited:

Moosical

magical me
is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
It obviously isn’t as good as Klefki in setting up screens, which is why it is not an S rank like that is, but it can find plenty of chances to come in during a matchup, set screens, and then pivot back out with Volt Switch. Deoxys-S, Klefki, Rotom-Heat all do more then set screens. Typically, Deoxys also sets rocks and shuts down other leads, Klefki stacks spikes, and Rotom-H removes hazards. As for Ground types, Will O Wisp can be used to cripple them on the switch and create safe setup opportunities and make them easier for the rest of the team to handle, which is made fairly easy since most people expect it to run Defog. This of course puts more pressure on Torkoal to remove hazards, but screen support helps it in that regard.

I can understand if Rotom were to drop to B-Rank, but I didn’t find the reasons given in the original post to be quite enough to justify it. I mean, it mentioned how it can’t replace Torkoal when they shouldn’t really be competing for a slot in the first place and instead compliment eachother quite well.
My point was that you have to remember that VR is relative to each other. Being a more niche pick that isn't viable on all Fire teams, but rather very specific ones, I don't think that Rotom-H is good enough for A rank. I don't think that it's comparable to other A Rank Pokemon like Infernape, Torkoal, or Heatran (to name a few) which are very, very important on most Fire teams. Rather, it is more comparable in viability to the current B Rank, Victini (good in certain situations, but isn't globally useful). For the purpose of my post, I tried to keep it very trim unlike the majority of posts in this thread.

Also, I wasn't saying that you should be replacing Torkoal (sorry that was bad writing on my behalf), but when combined, they tend to make your team rather passive as neither of them have any significant damage output besides pure utility, making your battles very reliant on the setup sweepers, putting immense pressure on them to break opposing teams. Their combined lack of recovery also mean that they struggle as utility Pokemon, being easily whittled down. So all in all, I don't think it is good enough to be A Rank.
 
Volcanion C->B
I know Volcanion on Fire is a bit of a meme, but I still find it to be wonderfully useful. Its function in walling Toxapex (except those running Toxic, which is very uncommon atm), which fire has extreme issues dealing with, is very much welcomed (if you're running Earth Power). Additionally, while it does have 4-move syndrome, if you can fit Defog onto it, it relieves a ton of pressure in keeping hazards off the field, which Torkoal especially appreciates. It also has the niche in helping with Azumarill on both Fairy and Water as it outspeeds and KOs the Belly Drum variant, and walls the PerishTrap Azumarill, if they're not running Toxic. I won't be heartbroken if this doesn't go through though, as I know these functions still are a little niche, just figured I'd make a claim. I at least do think it's better than Alolan Marowak, which only has one specific niche in providing an Electric immunity for M-Char-Y teams, but even that isn't particuarly good.
Volcanion (Fire) C=>B

I absolutley think this guy should rise. First, volc provides a water imunity, which is helpfull on fire teams, checking things like azumaril, toxapex (like Moosical said), & Gren, which are trobule for fire. Second, It does decently well vs water, absorbing water attacks, & even having a high chance of OHKOing threats in rain, like swampert (252+ SpA Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swampert in Rain: 322-379 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO). All in all, I think volc has a nice (bigger that its curently ranked for) niche on fire by checking many dangerous waters & can abuse rain to pick up a few KOs.
 
Gonna make 2 quick nom's here for steel

Celesteela
A rank -> S rank
one of the most annoying walls in monotype. It definitely helps in the steel matchup, by almost being able to completely beat the ground matchup itself. Ground mono's are basically forced to run gravity now and even then heavy slam 2hko's lando. The leech + protect combo is extremely deadly, and it allows for the rest of the team to gain health back if played well. It definitely should have a spot on every steel team. It's mixed bulk and leech stall are extremely effective in the current metagame, heavy slam is almost always a 120bp stab move, and it can run coverage like flamethrower or giga drain to catch opponents off guard.


Skarmory
S rank -> A rank
Honestly don't think Skarmory warrants an S rank on steel. It was great in ORAS but it's usage is slowly diminishing as celesteela finds it's way onto more teams. I am aware their roles are completely different, but skarmory just doesnt have much to offer anymore. Fighting types are much less relevant in USUM which skarmory was great at checking, but now skarmory is best used as a hazard stacker, which can be done by ferrothorn as well. It's still great, just don't know if it deserves an S rank for being a physical wall.
 
I'm gonna make a quick nom

Scrafty (Fighting) - UR > C

Scrafty @ Roseli/Sitrus Berry
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab

Scrafty is a solid set up sweeper that I believe is worthy of C rank (If not higher)

It serves a solid switch in to defensive mons and status inflicters (e.g Deoxys-D, Klefki, Slowbro) and offers a special merit in that it heals from status conditions inflicted upon it to stop its setup, potentially as a Moxie fakeout. It helps against the psychic matchup drastically, as well as others like ghost and fairy.

Roseli helps you tank a hit from most defensive fairy mons, for instance:

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roseli Berry Scrafty: 174-206 (64.2 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roseli Berry Scrafty: 186-222 (68.6 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sitrus is just healthy in general

If you bring this monster in at the right time, it will kill, so I think it deserves to have a spot on the viability rankings.

Kommo-o (Fighting) - A > S

I don't think this needs too much of an explanation. Kommo-o, his physical and special destruction and his omniboosting 185 power z move bring fear to the hearts of anything that isn't fairy, and even quite a few fairy mons (One of few klefki counters). I believe this thing is mandatory for fighting teams, and thus worth of an S rank

Kommo-o @ Kommonium Z
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Earthquake
- Clanging Scales
- Focus Blast
- Ice Punch

Keldeo (Fighting) - S > A

This is a bit of an unpopular opinion, but I feel keldeo is pretty unnecessary for fighting and doesn't help much in the current meta. Not only is it another choice user which there are better options for, the water coverage isn't very helpful and its role as a special monster is entirely outclassed by kommo-o. I believe it is still very viable but no longer at the calibre of an s rank.
 
I'm gonna make a quick nom

Scrafty (Fighting) - UR > C

Scrafty @ Roseli/Sitrus Berry
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab

Scrafty is a solid set up sweeper that I believe is worthy of C rank (If not higher)

It serves a solid switch in to defensive mons and status inflicters (e.g Deoxys-D, Klefki, Slowbro) and offers a special merit in that it heals from status conditions inflicted upon it to stop its setup, potentially as a Moxie fakeout. It helps against the psychic matchup drastically, as well as others like ghost and fairy.

Roseli helps you tank a hit from most defensive fairy mons, for instance:

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roseli Berry Scrafty: 174-206 (64.2 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roseli Berry Scrafty: 186-222 (68.6 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sitrus is just healthy in general

If you bring this monster in at the right time, it will kill, so I think it deserves to have a spot on the viability rankings.

Kommo-o (Fighting) - A > S

I don't think this needs too much of an explanation. Kommo-o, his physical and special destruction and his omniboosting 185 power z move bring fear to the hearts of anything that isn't fairy, and even quite a few fairy mons (One of few klefki counters). I believe this thing is mandatory for fighting teams, and thus worth of an S rank

Kommo-o @ Kommonium Z
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Earthquake
- Clanging Scales
- Focus Blast
- Ice Punch

Keldeo (Fighting) - S > A

This is a bit of an unpopular opinion, but I feel keldeo is pretty unnecessary for fighting and doesn't help much in the current meta. Not only is it another choice user which there are better options for, the water coverage isn't very helpful and its role as a special monster is entirely outclassed by kommo-o. I believe it is still very viable but no longer at the calibre of an s rank.
I personally don't think Scarfty is worthy of a C-Rank, but I think maybe it could earn a D at the very least. It's typing can disuade troublesome pokemon like Scarf Latios and Mewmium Mew from spamming their Psychic-moves freely, and it can function as a decent Bulk Up or Dragon Dance sweeper with STAB Knock Off for defensive switch ins. Shed Skin can be potentially useful for absorbing Will-O-Wisp and Toxic spam and the proceding to set up. It also has interesting synergy with Rest, making the sleep last much shorter and giving it reliable recovery. This lets it set up on basically any defensive pokemon lacking phazing with its bulky sets, which I think is a niche worth showing on the rankings. (Though Roseli Berry is a bad item, Scarfty isn't doing much vs fairy teams or offensive teams in general.)

As for Kommo-o, while it is a devastating sweeper vs offensive teams that often struggle to revenge kill it through boosted stats and some useful resistances to types like Fire and Electric, it isn't nearly as hard to stop for most balance teams, and the presence of a single Fairy type makes it unable to setup freely. In particular, your set lacks Poison Jab to hit fairy switch ins like Tapu Koko on Electric, or Azumarill on Water. It maybe could be an S-Rank since there isn't a ton of competition for the Z-Move on Fighting teams, but it is complete dead weight in the Fairy matchup (though the chances of winning that are low as is), and it is very weak to phazing, which makes it unable to setup vs Haze users it can't take out quickly such as Mantine and Toxapex, and Whirlwind users like Skarmory and Hippowdon.

As for Keldeo, I definitley think it should stay S-Rank for the important role it plays as a special wallbreaker. Specs Hydro Pump hits everything that doesn't resist it very hard, 2hkoing even specially defensive pokemon like Celesteela and Zapados with rocks up.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 192-226 (48.2 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Zapdos: 220-261 (57.2 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It has coverage to hit most switch ins to Hydro Pump, like Secret Sword for Cradily, Ferrothorn, Seismitoad, and Gastrodon, and Hidden Power Electric for Toxapex and Mantine. The last slot usually is Icy Wind to eliminate Landorus and Garchomp, improving the Ground Matchup even more so. I personally feel it is one of the easiest picks for any fighting team atm, which is why it should stay S-Rank.
 
Last edited:
I'm gonna make a quick nom

Scrafty (Fighting) - UR > C

Scrafty @ Roseli/Sitrus Berry
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab

Scrafty is a solid set up sweeper that I believe is worthy of C rank (If not higher)

It serves a solid switch in to defensive mons and status inflicters (e.g Deoxys-D, Klefki, Slowbro) and offers a special merit in that it heals from status conditions inflicted upon it to stop its setup, potentially as a Moxie fakeout. It helps against the psychic matchup drastically, as well as others like ghost and fairy.

Roseli helps you tank a hit from most defensive fairy mons, for instance:

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roseli Berry Scrafty: 174-206 (64.2 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roseli Berry Scrafty: 186-222 (68.6 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sitrus is just healthy in general

If you bring this monster in at the right time, it will kill, so I think it deserves to have a spot on the viability rankings.

Kommo-o (Fighting) - A > S

I don't think this needs too much of an explanation. Kommo-o, his physical and special destruction and his omniboosting 185 power z move bring fear to the hearts of anything that isn't fairy, and even quite a few fairy mons (One of few klefki counters). I believe this thing is mandatory for fighting teams, and thus worth of an S rank

Kommo-o @ Kommonium Z
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Earthquake
- Clanging Scales
- Focus Blast
- Ice Punch

Keldeo (Fighting) - S > A

This is a bit of an unpopular opinion, but I feel keldeo is pretty unnecessary for fighting and doesn't help much in the current meta. Not only is it another choice user which there are better options for, the water coverage isn't very helpful and its role as a special monster is entirely outclassed by kommo-o. I believe it is still very viable but no longer at the calibre of an s rank.
Keldeo has fallen a little bit with Gen 7 coming out, but it still greatly helps with its STAB against Celesteela, and Skarm. Its also the only real way fighting is beating Mega eye since Keldeo dont care about getting burnt and is not really afraid of any switch in. It also means you dont have to rely on a one time boost from Kommo-o for killing it. I still think in the current meta it should stay S rank on fighting.

Kommo-o is iffy for me, but that really isnt the set that's ran it runs Poison Jab with Dragon Dance and not Ice punch and Earthquake. I would say it raises thanks to Kommonium-z and how massive a threat he can be from Omi-boosting. It can combat Mega eye but its gets weaken and taken care of by Gengar with Dazzling Gleam.

Scrafty itself I can see going to D-rank, but nothing higher. Its niche with the Psychic matchup can be helpful at times, but it means Scrafty is taking another Pokémon's slot for it to fit on a fighting team, which isn't ideal.
 
As a longtime user of Fighting, I'm going to give my own thoughts on these nominations.

Scrafty (Fighting) - UR > C
I strongly disagree with this. If Pangoro, a significantly better Dark/Fighting counterpart, struggles to compete with the D-ranked Pokemon on Fighting, then Scrafty certainly deserves no place in the VR. It's simply way too slow and way too weak to successfully take advantage of Dragon Dance, and needs a couple of turns to set up in order to make a real difference in a game. This is simply an unrealistic outlook, and Scrafty will never be able to set up Dragon Dance enough times to actually threaten teams. The best thing its Dark typing does is give Latios a bit of a mindgame rather than expecting it to click Psychic every time. And once again, Pangoro does this better.

Kommo-o (Fighting) - A > S
I think this one needs a lot of explanation. Kommo-o is a good option but it is nowhere near the level of the current S-ranked Pokemon on Fighting. You're not giving any real explanation as to why it should rise; you're simply saying it sets up and hits hard. It's nowhere near a mandatory option. Also, it should never stay in against Klefki at all. Kommo-o does nothing if its paralyzed, and Flamethrower won't do much damage to Klefki behind a Light Screen. So I completely disagree with Kommo-o rising.

Keldeo (Fighting) - S > A
Almost everything about this statement is just incorrect. You can argue Keldeo is not as good as it was last gen all you want, but Fighting needs it as badly as ever. There are NO better options for "choice users" and Kommo-o is certainly not as good as it. Comparing them directly is a mistake; one is a pretty big threat to offensive teams thanks to its setup capabilities and the other is purely a powerful wallbreaker. Keldeo is an absolute difference maker in matchups like Flying where there isn't a universal switch-in (except I guess Mantine, but that fears HP Electric.) If you want to use Kommo-o, you give up nothing by using it alongside Keldeo, but Keldeo cannot be passed up on in the current metagame. I disagree strongly with this.

Just so this isn't a response post, I have a nomination of my own I want to make.

A --> B (Fighting)
Infernape finds itself in a weird spot at the moment. It's a decent option on Fighting teams, but it doesn't quite match up with the other A-ranked Pokemon right now. Cobalion is the best Stealth Rock setter, Heracross is extremely important in the Psychic matchup, and Kommo-o introduces an effective offensive tool in matchups like Poison and Water. Infernape is still viable, but it doesn't really do anything outstanding to put it on the level of of the current A-ranked Pokemon. Its niche of beating Mega Sableye is not really needed, as Keldeo and Kommo-o to a lesser extent can both take on that role. As a physical wallbreaker, it faces competition from Choice Band Terrakion. As a suicide lead, it's outclassed by Cobalion and even Kommo-o due to their longevity. It continues to be a fairly versatile offensive tool with a useful typing and amazing coverage. The fact that Infernape retains a small niche, but isn't as good as the Pokemon it's grouped with means that it should drop to B-rank. It's about as good as Pokemon like Buzzwole and Hawlucha, which have small yet acknowledgable niches that make them viable.
 
Just for more clarification on how Scrafty can murder psychic teams if played right, here's a replay from a week ago:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/azure-gen7monotype-29602
I'd like to mention psychic teams usually runs Alakazam to check threats like this. With sash guard, Alakazam can ignore hazards and switch in safely to revenge kill physical attackers succesfully which kinda invalidates your idea of Scrafty murdering psychic teams. Here's the optimal set :

Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Counter
 
3p6nCvc.jpg < disappointed because he's D rank, not C (jup Tentacruel D >>>>>> C)

I checked the poison ladder and i was like.... what....... why is tentacruel D rank?

Sample set.

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Acid Spray
- Rapid Spin
- Haze

One of the best stall breakers and special walls poison has, Tentacruel just deserves to be in the same rank as Skuntank (who even uses that thing?). Tentacruel can cripple many opponents with scald burns and giving -2 Special defence using acid spray. The fact that it's higher ranked than mons like skuntank is just ridiculous. This mon is an amazing core with venumega and weezing. Offering haze support is not bad either, even though the bunker learns it too. Acid spray completely wears down walls like sableye-mega, porygon 2 and Cradily (and many more....) I know skuntank has sucker punch support and an immunity to psychic and defog, but everyone uses Muk-Alola over it anyway. And rapid spin tentacruel is a thing. Tentacruel helps versus Bulky celesteela sets too, with liquid ooze to prevent leech seed recovery, scald to cripple it and resisting flamethrower. Everyone hates facing celesteela right? :D (outside of electric and fire users maybe)

PS: for real, skuntank is higher ranked than this?
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 2)

Top